The great fish tank debate

[infernalis]

Here it is.. Have at it.

Some people swear they suck for all snakes.

I keep small colubrids, Mainly garter snakes, a racer, a few milks, a corn and a European Natrix.

For these colubrids fish tanks work very nicely, I don't have forced air heat, so the humidity in my house is not dry like most people, These snakes are not temperature or humidity critical animals either, so the tanks work for MY needs. I keep my reptile room at 80-85 all the time too, so supplimental heat is not needed.

Now others have different views... Fire away.

[jarich]

Hahahaha! Too funny, thanks Wayne.

I think to begin with we should acknowledge the fact that there is a difference between the glass aquarium itself and the normal screen lid that many people use when housing a reptile in the glass aquarium. Most of the problems people attribute to fish tanks/glass aquariums are simply problems with the screen lid and not the fish tank/glass aquarium itself.

[Will0W783]

Thanks Wayne...I think this is a good thread. I keep some arachnids in aquariums, and I generally use a 10-gallon tank for quarantining, but I don't like them for long-term housing for snakes.

I have several reasons for this:
(1) The lids are never very secure. Cage clips don't keep the entire lid as securely down along its perimeter, so a determined snake can find a weak spot and push through if it's small enough. Also the screens tend to be held in place with a rubber strip, which can deteriorate over time or work loose, making the screen loose.

(2) Tanks tend to not hold humidity well because the top is so open and they are usually heated with heat lamps, which dry out the air

(3) It's hard to get a good, efficient thermal gradient-- using heat lamps for basking spots will give you a few really hot spots, but most of the hot air wants to escape out of the top through the screen so the rest of the room gets warmer, and the cage isn't evenly heated.


I personally LOVE plastic ABS-type caging. It's secure..doors are usually hinged with latches or sliding with a keyed lock of peg to hold them shut. They also hold humidity really well, and can be heated with a radiant panel for a nice, smooth gradient. Melamine caging can also be great, although it's heavy and tends to warp over time.

Like Wayne, I also heat my reptile room to 80-85F all the time, so I dont' have supplemental heating on all the cages, but I found that tanks dry out too quickly. I use ceramic radiant heaters for the room, but the air in my house tends to be fairly dry to begin with, so cages with less screen hold the humidity from evaporating water dishes much better.

[infernalis]

Hahahaha! Too funny, thanks Wayne.

I think to begin with we should acknowledge the fact that there is a difference between the glass aquarium itself and the normal screen lid that many people use when housing a reptile in the glass aquarium. Most of the problems people attribute to fish tanks/glass aquariums are simply problems with the screen lid and not the fish tank/glass aquarium itself.


That is correct, I have 4 of the big 55 gallon tanks set up with solid tops.

My BP is kept in a 55 gallon aquarium with a solid plywood top, never once had a shed issue, always eats with gusto, and otherwise lives very normally.

In the beginning, I used the screen top that came with the snake, he shed aweful, bits everywhere, stuck eye caps, you name it.

With the solid plywood top, a large water bowl (it holds a gallon) his needs are met.

[Will0W783]

jarich, that is true, but the combination of the fish tank/screen lid is what is usually meant when people refer to "aquariums" for snakes. I do like the Exo-Terra and ZooMed vertically-oriented habitats for arboreal vipers that need a lot of ventilation. They aren't the typical tank though, and do require lots of misting to hold humidity.

[MoreliAddict]

I use PVC cages, a couple things I will point out about them is:

You can drill into them, install whatever you want. (perches, heat panels, ect..)
Stack-able, professional looking.
Easier (IMO) to approach snakes at their (ground) level, rather than approaching them from above, which fish tanks force you to do.
Light, easy to transport.
Provide more security, as the only visibility is through the front window.


1st page by the way...

[jarich]

I have several reasons for this:
(1) The lids are never very secure. Cage clips don't keep the entire lid as securely down along its perimeter, so a determined snake can find a weak spot and push through if it's small enough. Also the screens tend to be held in place with a rubber strip, which can deteriorate over time or work loose, making the screen loose.

(2) Tanks tend to not hold humidity well because the top is so open and they are usually heated with heat lamps, which dry out the air

(3) It's hard to get a good, efficient thermal gradient-- using heat lamps for basking spots will give you a few really hot spots, but most of the hot air wants to escape out of the top through the screen so the rest of the room gets warmer, and the cage isn't evenly heated.


I personally LOVE plastic ABS-type caging. It's secure..doors are usually hinged with latches or sliding with a keyed lock of peg to hold them shut. They also hold humidity really well, and can be heated with a radiant panel for a nice, smooth gradient. Melamine caging can also be great, although it's heavy and tends to warp over time.

Like Wayne, I also heat my reptile room to 80-85F all the time, so I dont' have supplemental heating on all the cages, but I found that tanks dry out too quickly. I use ceramic radiant heaters for the room, but the air in my house tends to be fairly dry to begin with, so cages with less screen hold the humidity from evaporating water dishes much better.

Again, all three issues are with the lid, and not the tank. A solid lid on a glass tank solves all those problems easily. Maybe we should call this thread "The screen top". Of course then there wouldnt be much debate. ;)

[jarich]

jarich, that is true, but the combination of the fish tank/screen lid is what is usually meant when people refer to "aquariums" for snakes. I do like the Exo-Terra and ZooMed vertically-oriented habitats for arboreal vipers that need a lot of ventilation. They aren't the typical tank though, and do require lots of misting to hold humidity.

Yes, I understand, but that continuation is what leads to misunderstanding and then the regurgitation of false information. For instance the idea that glass aquariums dont hold heat as well. As Ive mentioned before in other threads, glass is the BEST insulating material you can use for an enclosure, nothing insulates better. Obviously nothing holds humidity/water better either. So if we all started saying screen tops, rather than aquarium or glass tank, then we might more easily move people towards a solution to their problem.

Most people come to the forum already having bought the glass tank. They are cheap and usually sold with the animal. So simply changing the lid is the easiest and best option in most cases, and a totally valid and healthy enclosure for the life of the reptile in most cases.

[infernalis]

Most people come to the forum already having bought the glass tank. They are cheap and usually sold with the animal. So simply changing the lid is the easiest and best option in most cases, and a totally valid and healthy enclosure for the life of the reptile in most cases.

Could not have said it better.

[MoreliAddict]

Most people come to the forum already having bought the glass tank. They are cheap and usually sold with the animal. So simply changing the lid is the easiest and best option in most cases, and a totally valid and healthy enclosure for the life of the reptile in most cases.
Only reason I have a PVC enclosure is because when I was a noob, I saw a post from mykee about how a Ball Python should "NEVER" be kept in an enclosure heated by a heat lamp.

Thanks to his bluntness, I forced myself to do research on PVC cages.

Now I'm great with them, and wouldn't consider keeping my snakies in anything but PVC..

...unless mykee tells me to...

[Lankyrob]

One other thing with a tank is that you have to reach down to get your snake. With a defensive snake approaching above isnt going to help :)

[Jay]

Could not have said it better.

Nor could I. With slight lid modifications aquariums are great for keeping herps.

[Jay]

One other thing with a tank is that you have to reach down to get your snake. With a defensive snake approaching above isnt going to help :)

Also a valid point. One of the reason I keep my atb's in terrariums with sliding glass doors.

[millertime89]

One other thing with a tank is that you have to reach down to get your snake. With a defensive snake approaching above isnt going to help :)

This argument can also be used against tubs. Jussayin.

[jarich]

And cannot be used against front opening glass tanks

[Terranaut]

Well I have glass tanks,pvc and wood enclosures and although my pvc vivs are the best my others are not far behind and cost WAY WAY LESS. It also depends on what type of snake is being kept. Moding the lid from wire is only needed if the snake has humidity requirements.
I can't knock any of them. They all have their place. I modded a 90 gallon and will post pics when I get home from work.

[Danimal]

I don't see what's debatable really. If you don't like them, you aren't going to use them.
If you do like them, then you are. In all cases there is a question of husbandry. If you are a successful keeper then your husband dictates the path. If the end result is proper husbandry then how you get there shouldn't really matter as long as the result is proper.

I think when folks come here and are told that they need to spend another few hundred dollars to fix this grave mistake they have made is just wrong. First of all that is an opinion not a fact. This is going to put some people off and that doesn't do the animal any good. Give them options. Cover the screen first…… for example and help them work through the husbandry. If they understand the husbandry then they will learn to work through their own problems. Especially those that just want to be told the answer.

Their circumstance may not work with a tank or it may be fine. What works for me may not work for you for a ton of reasons. So assuming is a mistake. Teach the proper husbandry and the rest will take care of itself.

[MoreliAddict]

This argument can also be used against tubs. Jussayin.
Actually, you can come in from a better angle using tubs.

Not on their level, like when using a front opening a enclosure, but still a better angle than a fish tank..

@Danimal - This thread will be great for people who are willing to spend the money and are trying to decide between the two.

[SpOoKy]

I don't see what's debatable really. If you don't like them, you aren't going to use them.
If you do like them, then you are. In all cases there is a question of husbandry. If you are a successful keeper then your husband dictates the path. If the end result is proper husbandry then how you get there shouldn't really matter as long as the result is proper.

I think when folks come here and are told that they need to spend another few hundred dollars to fix this grave mistake they have made is just wrong. First of all that is an opinion not a fact. This is going to put some people off and that doesn't do the animal any good. Give them options. Cover the screen first…… for example and help them work through the husbandry. If they understand the husbandry then they will learn to work through their own problems. Especially those that just want to be told the answer.

Their circumstance may not work with a tank or it may be fine. What works for me may not work for you for a ton of reasons. So assuming is a mistake. Teach the proper husbandry and the rest will take care of itself.

Perfect way of explaining it.
I do have some of my snakes in tanks, but they are set up to properly house them. There is a way to make them work, there just needs to be some minor adjustments made.
It is far better to help someone make the best of their situation rather then stomp them down off the start. Teach them how to improve their tank set up and in time they may realize for themselves that it is not ideal and make the switch on their own.

[jarich]

Actually, you can come in from a better angle using tubs.

Not on their level, like when using a front opening a enclosure, but still a better angle than a fish tank..



How is that possible? Tub or tank, both have lids on top. Besides, I can easily grab my python out of my 90 gallon tank from the side, without needing to reach him from on top. Not that he would care either way...

[MoreliAddict]

How is that possible? Tub or tank, both have lids on top. Besides, I can easily grab my python out of my 90 gallon tank from the side, without needing to reach him from on top. Not that he would care either way...
Tanks (generally speaking) have higher walls.

Also you can pull a tub right out of a rack system which makes it a bit easier, too..

[KORBIN5895]

Tanks (generally speaking) have higher walls.

Also you can pull a tub right out of a rack system which makes it a bit easier, too..

Wow. Both points are irrelevant to your original statement and the following question.

[MoreliAddict]

Wow. Both points are irrelevant to your original statement and the following question.
Oh really? How so?

[KORBIN5895]

Oh really? How so?

What does a sliding tub have to do with reaching in fro the top?

Also making a generalized statement about wall height is irrelevant. Look at the tubs Chuck uses for his big snakes. They have 18" sides.

[Danimal]

@Danimal - This thread will be great for people who are willing to spend the money and are trying to decide between the two.

I get that and totally agree. I am not arguing against anything other than the shortsightedness of some of the help given out here. I am simply requesting folks take a little wider view. So much about enclosures is subjective. Some people are minimalist and some people fill the thing to the brim with naturalistic environment. Some like furniture quality enclosures and some build the cages that look like they belong in a shanty town.

Even the reach from above defense is subjective. Not saying it's wrong, just saying that if reaching in from above were a big problem, seems like there would be more anecdotal evidence to suggest this is a problem. I never had a problem with it when I had snakes but I have a couple of large male bearded dragons that adopt defensive posture from above or from the side but they never bite. You could argue that just because the snake doesn't get defensive, that doesn't mean it's not stressed and you would be right but no more right than someone that argues the opposite. In this case I still think is comes down to husbandry but also the individual animal itself. As for my dragons it's probably because I don't handle them except if I need to.

If the individual animal shows behavior that you can directly link to the enclosure then proper husbandry would dictate moving that animal to a more stress free environment, new enclosure.
However, without at least the anecdotal evidence to suggest that all snakes or even a specific species of snakes are always stressed because of this, I think discounting a certain kind of enclosure is premature.

[MoreliAddict]

What does a sliding tub have to do with reaching in fro the top?

Also making a generalized statement about wall height is irrelevant. Look at the tubs Chuck uses for his big snakes. They have 18" sides.
You never answered my question though. How were my points irrelevant?

[Danimal]

Come on people now, smile on your brother
Everybody get together,try to love one another
Right now :)

[Jay]

You can avoid going in from the top of a tub by just removing the tub and dumping the snake out.

[KORBIN5895]

Lol why are you descending into personal attacks? Posts like ^THAT are the problem with this forum. That's literally asking for nothing but drama. Grow up.

Both of my points that you picked on were about removing a snake from said enclosure. They're not irrelevant just because you disagree with them.

Wall height changes the angle which you can approach the animal at. Having the freedom to pull the tub out, and place it at any height, and being able to approach it from any direction helps too. - How were either of those points irrelevant to pulling snakes out of tanks vs tubs??

I put it there plainly for you to see why they were irrelevant to your original post and jarich's question. If you can't read the text and comprehend what I said my last statement is true. If you can read it and try to redirect well it fell flat.

I can grab a ten gallon tank and place it at any height so that nullifies that point. And a five gallon tank has walls around eight inches tall so that affects the angle of approach. Next irrelevant point?

[MoreliAddict]

You can avoid going in from the top of a tub by just removing the tub and dumping the snake out.
Exactly. Removing the tub to extract the snake helps for obvious reasons.
I put it there plainly for you to see why they were irrelevant to your original post and jarich's question. If you can't read the text and comprehend what I said my last statement is true. If you can read it and try to redirect well it fell flat.

I can grab a ten gallon tank and place it at any height so that nullifies that point. And a five gallon tank has walls around eight inches tall so that affects the angle of approach. Next irrelevant point?
You'd have to dissemble your jerry-rigged fish tank and do some heavy lifting to just move it anywhere. lmao

Tubs in general do have very low wall height. Yes I said in general, but it's still a true statement.

Next bitchy condescending response?

[Rogue628]

I've used tanks in the past and I use tubs now. Back when I was using tanks, I didn't know about humidity issues. However, I did have boards across the couple of tanks I did use. Not necessarily to help with humidity but to keep the snakes in! lol

One of the biggest advantages I have with using tubs over tanks is they are much lighter in weight so they're easier for me to keep clean. Lugging around a 55 gallon tank to the bathroom to clean is annoying as hell. For me, it's also easier for me to keep heat and humidity up. I know it can be done with tanks, but I prefer tubs.

If I ever have a snake that is easily startled by me reaching in the top and it continues to be defensive by this method, I'll be more than happy to get a better accommodating vivarium. My current collection has no problems with me going in through the top. If I leave the top off for a few minutes, most come out on their own anyway, so I usually allow them to come out by themselves. It shows me that they don't mind the interaction between us. If they don't come out, I'll reach in and touch them. If they show signs of not wanting to be messed with, I leave them alone. Otherwise I pick them up. Unless I have to clean the burms tubs while they're in shed. Then it's a lot of huffing and puffing from them until I get them out. Then they're fine. But I NEVER just reach in and grab any of my animals without giving them a warning.

I keep my rose hair in a glass tank. It's working well with it, so if I get more, I'll probably keep them in tanks as well.

I think the whole tank vs tubs is more of a preference, depending upon the animal (I would never put a large snake in a glass tank) and the owner.

[Terranaut]

So the reason for the debate? Cost. It all comes down to cost. If you have deep pockets why would you not have a retile wall of awesome stackable pvc or abs enclosures with humidity and temp controls uv light hell toss in a disco ball. Whatever works best for you.
But for the rest of us sometimes a $25 tank wins over $200 pvc enclosure. I don't like top entry tanks period. This is why I changed mine. Like I said I am leaving work and will post a great tank modification that is cheap and easy and will have the haters loving their tanks again. You can do a lot to a tank for the money saved over pvc.
Another thing is stackability. Can stack a top entry tank so that is also another bonus.

[TragicTaste]

I agree that tanks can work out just fine, with the right corrections for the specific reptiles needs. I want to see pictures of tank modifications added to this thread, I think that would help some people make decisions, on whether they are able to make said modifications themselves.

[Gungirl]

For me it is a personal thing.. I don't think I could ever enjoy having tanks. I build all my own wooden vivs to look like furniture. However if I couldn't build I would save up and fork out the money for someone to make me them. I will never go PVC or fish tank. I do see how all can work if you put the effort into them, I just don't want to bother with it.

[CK SandBoas]

Simply put, yes, i use tanks, yes, i have made modifications to the original lids ( instead of using those clips, made the lid into a hinged lid that locks with a key, plexi glass or lexan covering the screens to keep heat and humidity in).


That is all i have to say in regards to the great debate.....:)

[red ink]

I've never understood this debate.. you tailor your enclosure to the needs of the specimen.

If the specimen needs high humidity then wood is out of the question really....
If the enclosure is letting out to much heat, but still require high humidity then address that problem specifically.

[Gungirl]

I've never understood this debate.. you tailor your enclosure to the needs of the specimen.

If the specimen needs high humidity then wood is out of the question really....
If the enclosure is letting out to much heat, but still require high humidity then address that problem specifically.

I keep my GTP in a wooden viv.. it is all about knowing how to properly seal it. The viv I made can hold 1" of standing water across the entire bottom and never have an issue.

[Lankyrob]

I keep my GTP in a wooden viv.. it is all about knowing how to properly seal it. The viv I made can hold 1" of standing water across the entire bottom and never have an issue.

Ditto, all my snakes are in melamine vivs, well sealed and no issues at all :)

[jarich]

So it seems like we have a general concensus, in that this seems to be just a case of preference and has no health benefits one way or the other. Whether you chose a glass, wood or plastic cage, they are just a box you start with and set up to that animals requirements.

SO instead of saying glass tanks suck and slagging people off for having them, let's focus on the screen lid that is often a problem (ya know, the only part of it that isn't glass!)

[Terranaut]

Ok here we go. I guess this is a 110 gallon. 5x2x20". Got it free because it is cracked.
So I built a hinged door out of wood trim I had laying around and used 2 pieces of plexi on it. I first pulled off the plastic ring on the top the built a "hat" for the tank from the wood trim. I used inustrial adhesive to glue it to the glass. Yes its on there. You can lift the tank by the wood and its gotta be 150lbs. Then I just bolted the hinged door to the hat. Looks ok but works great.
Bottom right is the fish tank. The bottom big one on the left is home made melmine. The rest are pvc or glass
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/photo-494.jpg



Door closed
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/photo-1944.jpg

The hat and adhesive. Looks like crap but only the snakes can see it.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/photo-1819.jpg


Door open
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/photo-242.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j9/terranaut0/photo-1771.jpg

Currently I use a uth and run the temp prob for the thermostat through the vent holes in the front door. I house a 6.5' and 7.5' boa pair in there.
Humidity takes a few days to fall even with aspen and its on insulation so the floor temps are very consitant even with changes in room temp.
Ask any questions or pics you want. This was so easy and so cheap.

[red ink]

I keep my GTP in a wooden viv.. it is all about knowing how to properly seal it. The viv I made can hold 1" of standing water across the entire bottom and never have an issue.

That's impressive mate.. how long have you had the viv and what did you seal it with?

[Sorraia]

I've used and currently use a glass tank for snakes. Many years ago I had a ball python, and he lived in a glass tank. The top was half covered with glass, and half with screen. I never had any problems with humidity. He grew well and thrived, never had any shedding or feeding issues. Worked great for me!

Now I have two rosy boas. I use a tank for them. I already have the tanks, no need for me to spend lots of money buying a new enclosure. I personally prefer display-type enclosures I can set up with branches, rocks, hides, etc to make it appear more natural and provide more moving/climbing room for the snakes. This species doesn't need a lot of humidity, so the screen top on the aquarium works great - it stays at the ambient room humidity of about 30%. Heating hasn't been a problem either. So far the snakes are doing great. So far the only escape was when I first got these snakes and the lid wasn't fitted properly. I got a new lid and haven't had a problem since.

I personally don't think there's a right or a wrong, as long as the keeper does what is required to properly house the animals. If the tank needs modification to properly house the snake, so be it. If the tank absolutely won't provide the right conditions, then it is time to change enclosures to something that does. Besides the animal's needs, there is a difference in climates too. I live in a naturally warm and dry area (actually I live in the rosy boa's native range!), so providing for this species isn't a problem for me. If I plan to obtain a more tropical species, then I would have different considerations to make and may need to try a different type of enclosure.

As far as cleaning tanks, they can certainly be heavy, but for me personally this isn't an issue. I do what it takes to clean it, and if that means lugging a heavy tank outside to clean out, so be it. I've done the same for other pets, but that's my personal choice. For someone who doesn't want to or is unable to do this, they need to decide on an alternative. Again comes down to personal preference.

[Gungirl]

That's impressive mate.. how long have you had the viv and what did you seal it with?

I used a bar top 2 part epoxy. I have this same sealant on the floors of all my vivs. It acts as a 100% water/air tight seal. It looks and feels like Glass once dried.

How to - Epoxy resin bar top crystal clear glaze coat - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7qyKCTwiMI)

I have had one viv for 2 years.. it houses my Royals. The others are under a year old. I also used this product for a friends turtle pen bottom. It is 9 yrs old and still looks new when he digs out the dirt.

If you look at the bottom of the viv in this picture v you can see the glaze coat on the bottom. Once it is dry on the bottom I flip the viv to do up the sides a ways. It takes time and isn't real cheap but I think it is worth it.
http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee454/KAMacie/Vivs/DSCF0310.jpg

[shaunyboy]

i've NEVER used them Wayne,that said.....

i think it all depends on the species...

i see your Garters,etc,thriving in fish tanks...

on the other hand,i would'nt put a hatchling or adult carpet in one

cheers shaun

[Aaron_S]

I will have to respond a bit more and length my explanation as I'm headed out the door but the reason I HIGHLY dislike tanks, because I don't like having to buy something then something else and modifying it work.

I buy a pvc enclosure or tub and boom it's ready. I know tubs need air holes but that's 3 minutes of my time.

[Corey209]

I don't mind the glass terrariums if they have a sliding screen and the snake will last a life time in it, but it's not that great for a snake that gets big like a red tail or retic.