Handling

[EMAC1990]

Hey everyone, hope all is well with you and your reptiles. I have some questions about handling and interacting with monitors that I am sure have been touched on before, but I want to hear some current opinions. The first is really 'what is meant by force handling?'.

My Melinus is still very cautious of me and it is difficult to tong feed at this time, though she tolerates my presence around the enclosure, even right up next to the glass provided the door is closed. Yesterday and today, I took her out for a little while. I made sure to wait until she was out in the open and I approached her very slowly. She flees at my first scoop but after I take her out, she seems fairly comfortable, even more so today than yesterday. She does not like to be grabbed from the top and will again flee if it becomes necessary to do this, but in general she seems very interested in exploring the area despite little sprints here and there when she is spooked. She is comfortable climbing on my body and over my hands as I trade them. At some points she even allows me to gently rub under her throat completely unrestrained. I want to mention that her eyes are not closed, she is not petrified and seems to be maybe a little concerned, but more so interested in the new atmosphere.

Many of you believe that this sort of handling is inappropriate, and I may even agree. This was really somewhat of an experiment, but as of right now, I am not sold on the idea that it was a terrible experience for her. I placed her back in the enclosure and she immediately came against the window to get out again. Are there two schools of thought on this? I am not ignorant of animal behaviors and the general husbandry of these particular animals. I certainly understand how pulling an animal from its hide or burrow could be detrimental to their feeling of security, but Daniel Bennett even discusses handling Savannahs and slowly taming them down "The trick with taming the lizard is to condition it to not respond to handling as a threat. Start off by leaving the animal alone in its well-equipped enclosure until it feels secure enough to emerge of its own accord in your presence. This may take a few weeks or months but if the animal is being housed properly it will eventually emerge from hiding long enough to be lifted out without requiring any excavation. Use a pair of thick gloves to begin with, so that the lizard can try biting and (hopefully) learn that it has no effect (Bennett, Thakoordyal 68).

Daniel Bennet, R. T. (2003). The Savannah Monitor: The Truth about Varanus exanthematicus. Glossop, England: Viper Press.

[EMAC1990]

I would like to add that I am not making any opinions and am certainly not inviting an opportunity to flame as brutally as you can; just making some observations for discussion. Infernalis, I would really like to see what you have to say.

[TaylorWalker]

I have no experience with monitors, but your use of citations impressed the crap out of me. There is now way anyone can "flame" you as you said; the entire post was very respectful and formal.

[infernalis]

"Force handling" is when we pick up an animal against it's will.

I am only against it when it becomes repeated molestations.
v. mo·lest·ed, mo·lest·ing, mo·lests. 1. To disturb, interfere with, or annoy

what you described is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as you are not forcing yourself on the lizard constantly.

I have had my two monitors for nearly a year now, and I can pick up Littlefoot with no problems. If I even get a hand within a few inches of Cera, I get bit, tail whipped and clawed up.

As long as you pay attention to the signals from your lizard, and cease when the animal reaches it's boiling point, then you should be fine.

[Pirarucu]

That is a perfect example of what I would call acceptable handling techniques. As Wayne pointed out, force handling is when you are restraining the lizard, if you are just letting it crawl around and not holding onto it, it is not forcible. The only way I could think of to improve your method would be that I wouldn't take it out of the cage, but instead work with it in the cage until it is larger and more confident. This way, if it gets spooked it can run and hide, and you don't have to chase it down and recapture it. Imagine if it got under a couch or behind something.. I've just had some bad experiences with animals managing to escape during handling sessions and have been forced to retrieve animals from under heavy furniture.. Not fun for me, and I just felt awful for the watersnake..

Also, threads like this are exactly the type of thing that needs to be stickied. Threads discussing the specifics and intricacies of monitor care. Sure there is a range of things that work, but for a newbie that's actually kind of an overwhelming statement, because it doesn't specify anything exactly, and they will worry that they misunderstood something until they hear something precise and then get into the swing of things.

[Akuma223]

Your handling seems just fine, As long as you don't actually restrain the animal.

[EMAC1990]

Thanks for the posts! I am learning something everyday I work with her and stay active on this forum.

[Gatorhunter1231]

No pictures?

[DiscoPat]

Usually when I handle Steve he is relatively calm with me. I will let him sit in my hand rather than hold him down. If he starts moving a lot I will put him back.

Whenever I bring him around other people he starts to get really hissy and squirmy so I never bring him around more than 1 other person at a time.

[EMAC1990]

I rarely use any pressure to hold her, but she does run a lot at first. She actually lets me scoop her from the cage now with no issues, but at first, she wants to get away and will sprint to every crevice of the apartment. I follow her around and try to redirect her occasionally placing her back on the couch near her enclosure. After she gets comfortable with my hands though (2-3 mins) she will relax and slowly climb all over me and the couch. She seems to like (or at least tolerate) being touched under her head on her throat, but never from the top unless it is very far down her dorsal region. I read that this may be the only erogenous zone for all Varanids.

What species is Steve and how big is he?

[EMAC1990]

Alright everyone, I have some updates regarding my monitors handling and possibly some ideas and things I have noticed over the past week. I have handled Joanna for no more than 15 minutes, everyday for the last 7 days. Whether or not there is any progress is still hard to tell and it seems these things take a great deal of patience.

The general routine starts with me pulling her out of the enclosure though the ease of this varies from day to day. Some times I have to just grab her, but this is not the preferred method. One thing I must say is that you CANNOT take them from hiding. I have only once pulled her while she was semi-concealed and not in the basking area. It may seem that they are calmer, but this is almost certainly because of the lower temp. They will undoubtedly be more worried than interested and energetic. If it is possible, I let her see me and get used to my hand being near her. Then I gently scoop her up.

Regardless of how well she takes to being pulled out, she always frantically runs for about 20 seconds. I have learned that grabbing only makes this worse. Let them run freely on your hands and they will slowly start to understand they are not being threatened. I have had 50% of my handlings now become what I consider productive in this way. If she is not adapting well, I usually handle her till she is calm, then place her back in the cage so as not to reinforce any negative behaviors. It really is great to be able to place such a small naturally skittish animal on the ground and calmly follow her around my apartment while she looks around.

A few tips from my LIMITED experience.

1) If possible, handle them at a regular time each day. They will more quickly become used to the idea of you interacting with them if it is routine, much like feeding.

2) Respect their space, and this particularly means their enclosure. When you have let them back into their enclosure, they should feel comfortable and secure. One time I grabbed her again after our handling session to move somethings around and this is the only time I have been bitten.

3) Once a day is more than enough. Do not antagonize them so often that they run away from you as soon as you place them back in the enclosure.

[AjaMichelle]

You're force-handling your monitor instead of trust-building. This is NEVER EVER recommended as it can cause fear submission, and your monitor to go off food (among other issues). You're supposed to be showing her you aren't a predator. Force-handling is incredibly stressful for lizards.

You're supposed to positively condition your monitor to interaction by offering food on tongs, and working toward contact at the monitor's pace.

You should stop what you're doing now.

[AjaMichelle]

Okay... Weird. When I selected this thread the only post I saw was number eleven. So it sounds like the problems with force handling were already described. So... Don't take offense to what I wrote. :)

[Pirarucu]

I agree, I'd cut it back to how you were doing before. It's easy to get carried away and give in to the temptation of force handling. Handle it in the enclosure and if it resists, let it resist. Don't pull it out if it doesn't want to be pulled out.

[AjaMichelle]

That's what I was trying to say! Well-put. :)

[EMAC1990]

That's probably a good idea. I plan to back it off a little and I will try keeping her in the enclosure. She is only skittish when I first remove her so this resolves that. Any tips to get the animal comfortable with tong feeding? With my savannah, there was no acclimation. She hissed and ran, but always took food. Anyone have some experience with the more easily spooked species?

[Pirarucu]

If I had to guess I'd just say it's a matter of time. It'll just take a bit longer than a Sav to get her tong feeding. She is very little and you are very big.

[DiscoPat]

What species is Steve and how big is he?

Steve is a Savannah Monitor and he is about 13-15 inches head to tip of tail. Maybe a little bigger.