Can someone identify this snake?

[Rick10]

I was called to remove a 5 foot snake from a neighbor's yard yesterday, and here is a picture of the snake below. Can someone help me identify it? I released it in a wooded area near a lake later yesterday. It struck at me a few times as I captured it, but it was only trying to defend itself, and I had long welding gloves on so I wasn't worried. I would guess some relative to an eastern king snake, but I really don't know.http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/vonoretn/Animals/snake4_zpsde6863ff.jpg

[bladeblaster]

black rat?

[poison123]

looks like a black racer to me

[StudentoReptile]

Black racer

[Danimal]

I agree, looks like a racer

[SSSSnakes]

From this picture, judging from the size and head shape I would say a Black Rat Snake. It would help if we knew where the snake was found.

[Rick10]

From this picture, judging from the size and head shape I would say a Black Rat Snake. It would help if we knew where the snake was found.

It was in front of a neighbors large garage door, sunning itself on the concrete, but by the time I got there it was in the bushes next to the garage. It tried to get into a hole at the base of the garage brick, but it apparently wasn't a hole, just a depression. The house was between two other houses, all above a bluff, above Lake Tellico, where the water is 60 feet deep just off shore. The bluff is too step for any docks in that area.

The picture doesn't show it very well but there was a pattern of color, like dark gray and lighter gray wide bands along it. I thought black racers were completely the same color.

[StudentoReptile]

Ratsnakes have moderate-heavily keeled scales. Racers do not have keeled scales. The snake in the photo has no keeled scales; ergo, the most likely candidate is a black racer.

When in doubt, refer to a dichotomous key! ;)

[StudentoReptile]

The picture doesn't show it very well but there was a pattern of color, like dark gray and lighter gray wide bands along it. I thought black racers were completely the same color.

When born, racers do have a some pattern and varied coloration. It fades with age, but no two specimens are exactly alike. I've seen 18-inch black racers that have completely lost all pattern and developed the uniform black color, and I have seen larger specimens that still retain some faint pattern.

[SSSSnakes]

Ratsnakes have moderate-heavily keeled scales. Racers do not have keeled scales. The snake in the photo has no keeled scales; ergo, the most likely candidate is a black racer.

When in doubt, refer to a dichotomous key! ;)

Not always true. In this picture of a Black Rat Snake the scale do not appear to be keeled.
http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr115/JerryTheSnakeman/blackrat.jpg

[SSSSnakes]

It was in front of a neighbors large garage door, sunning itself on the concrete, but by the time I got there it was in the bushes next to the garage. It tried to get into a hole at the base of the garage brick, but it apparently wasn't a hole, just a depression. The house was between two other houses, all above a bluff, above Lake Tellico, where the water is 60 feet deep just off shore. The bluff is too step for any docks in that area.

The picture doesn't show it very well but there was a pattern of color, like dark gray and lighter gray wide bands along it. I thought black racers were completely the same color.

I meant to ask is what state was it found in.

[Rick10]

I meant to ask is what state was it found in.
It was found 40 miles southwest of Knoxville, Tennessee. 30 miles from the Smoky Mountains, on a peninsula development on the Little Tennessee River.

[StudentoReptile]

Not always true. In this picture of a Black Rat Snake the scale do not appear to be keeled.
http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr115/JerryTheSnakeman/blackrat.jpg

You're not looking closely enough. One can still see some faint keels on the coils on the leftmost part of the image. Typically, it is more prominent on the posterior half of the snake more than the anterior half.

In Pantherophis, I will concur the keeling does vary between specimens and locales, but ALL specimens do have it to some degree. Racers (Coluber sp.) do not have it at all. There are other differences that distinguish the two genera, but we don't have the animal in question right in front of us, and likewise, as the OP said, it has been released, so all we have is that photo they posted.

[SSSSnakes]

After knowing where the snake was found and checking native snakes of Tenn., I will have to agree that it is a Black Racer. From what I have found, there are no Black Rat Snakes in Tenn. Nice job poison123 for being what appears to be the first person to correctly ID the snake.

[Snakefood]

yup, good job...... my first thought was black rat too!!!

[SSSSnakes]

You're not looking closely enough. One can still see some faint keels on the coils on the leftmost part of the image. Typically, it is more prominent on the posterior half of the snake more than the anterior half.

In Pantherophis, I will concur the keeling does vary between specimens and locales, but ALL specimens do have it to some degree. Racers (Coluber sp.) do not have it at all. There are other differences that distinguish the two genera, but we don't have the animal in question right in front of us, and likewise, as the OP said, it has been released, so all we have is that photo they posted.

I have come to agree with you as you can see from my last post. I want to say thanks for a nice friendly debate. Normally people have a habit of getting defensive and nasty when you disagree with them, you have been such a gentleman.

It's always is harder to ID a snake from a picture as many things can be distorted. It also helps when you have all the info such as where it was found. length and any other distinguishing marking that we may not be able to see from the angle of the picture. But I always love trying to do it. Although I'll have to admit that I don't like it when I am wrong. lol

[StudentoReptile]

In my opinion, it is not a competition. I can't speak for anyone else, bu I certainly didn't participate in this post for any form of notoriety.

There is a very specific and scientific method for identifying animals (it's how scientists classify animals and plants into taxonomy in the first place!). Yet a lot of people still go by "what it looks like" and their first step is to "google it" (not saying that is what you did, Jerry, just making a point). Well, how many times have you googled something, looked for images, and got some pretty outlandish results that obviously weren't what you were searching for? Hmmm? So if you are put in "adult black rat snake" in the search engine, you may very well indeed get some images for black racers, indigo snakes, melanistic eastern hogs, and even grey ratsnakes in the mix. Someone not in the know might grab one of those and say, "OOO, that's what I found!" and assume it was whatever they searched for.

In this instance, one of a few distinct characteristics that separates black racers from black ratsnakes is that the former has smooth scales, while the latter has some keeled scalation. There are other factors (scale count, distribution), that can help, but when all you have is a photo...meh.

This is why I have recently adopted the method of using a dichotomous key for identification. I encourage others to do so as well.

[StudentoReptile]

No one likes it when they're wrong! Thanks for being civil as well. I just hoped everyone learned something.

Not long ago, I had a similar "discussion" with a member who swore up and down they had an odd-colored anaconda. Ironically, the same characteristic was the tell-tale feature: presence of keeled scales, which anaconda do not have. Turns out the species was a Asian dog-face water snake, fairly obscure species.

[StudentoReptile]

Field guides and distribution maps are not always accurate either. I have one field guide that says eastern box turtles are not native to my area. I can tell that they certainly are.

So just because a particular website might say "_______ are not native to X"....it may not necessarily be true. Which goes back to the overall reliability and effectiveness of a dichotomous key.

Coloration and pattern is variable. Behavior is variable. Even range is somewhat subjective. "Hard" physical features such as scale counts, keeled/non-keeled scales, orientation of scutes on plastron or carapace for chelonians, etc. are typically the defining characteristics between species.

[Revenant]

Thanks for catching it alive and releasing it the same way! Racers definitely can have an attitude if they don't like what you are doing. It's always nice to have a photo posted for ID where the snake is still alive and well.

[Rick10]

I'm going with black racer, per the consensus of the forum authorities. Thanks for checking it out. When I released it, it stretched out to full length, and just stopped there in the grass, looking back at me. It seemed not all that concerned. After a minute, it slowly crawled away into deeper grass and disappeared, above a wooded area, above the lake.

A lot of people around here think that the only response to a snake is to kill it, which I find very annoying. But lately, they have been calling me first. And I would never kill a snake, not even a poisonous one. We have lots of copperheads around here. If I see one, I just observe it and leave it alone. If someone wants me to remove one, I use a stick with a hook on it, and carefully put it in a box, and relocate it into a remote wooded area. I have always respected snakes, and I think we should just adapt to living with them, as they obviously have no animosity toward us.

[Lankyrob]

I'm going with black racer, per the consensus of the forum authorities. Thanks for checking it out. When I released it, it stretched out to full length, and just stopped there in the grass, looking back at me. It seemed not all that concerned. After a minute, it slowly crawled away into deeper grass and disappeared, above a wooded area, above the lake.

A lot of people around here think that the only response to a snake is to kill it, which I find very annoying. But lately, they have been calling me first. And I would never kill a snake, not even a poisonous one. We have lots of copperheads around here. If I see one, I just observe it and leave it alone. If someone wants me to remove one, I use a stick with a hook on it, and carefully put it in a box, and relocate it into a remote wooded area. I have always respected snakes, and I think we should just adapt to living with them, as they obviously have no animosity toward us.

Kudos for this, for future reference tho snakes are "venomous" not "poisonous" :)

[StudentoReptile]

Kudos for this, for future reference tho snakes are "venomous" not "poisonous" :)

I have all but given up getting very upset when people use the terms synonymously. Honestly, to the layman, the technical difference is not going to change how they view the snake (they'll still see it as dangerous either way), and depending on the situation, me pointing it out just makes me sound like a smart-alek trying to one-up them in intelligence ("Hmmph, this snake nerd is just trying to act smarter than me!"). Yes, in some situations, if they ask the right question, or the conversation is steered accordingly, I can correct their misunderstanding, but sometimes I simply do not bother.

What DOES get me irritated is when journalists/reporters continue to use the term incorrectly. It's one thing for the average Joe to not know the difference. But when your job entails reporting the news, and providing accurate information, part of that job includes doing your research and making sure you have the correct terminology so you don't sound like an idiot, either on camera or in print.

[SSSSnakes]

I have all but given up getting very upset when people use the terms synonymously. Honestly, to the layman, the technical difference is not going to change how they view the snake (they'll still see it as dangerous either way), and depending on the situation, me pointing it out just makes me sound like a smart-alek trying to one-up them in intelligence ("Hmmph, this snake nerd is just trying to act smarter than me!"). Yes, in some situations, if they ask the right question, or the conversation is steered accordingly, I can correct their misunderstanding, but sometimes I simply do not bother.

What DOES get me irritated is when journalists/reporters continue to use the term incorrectly. It's one thing for the average Joe to not know the difference. But when your job entails reporting the news, and providing accurate information, part of that job includes doing your research and making sure you have the correct terminology so you don't sound like an idiot, either on camera or in print.

I agree with most of what you said, but on a reptile forum I don't think Lankyrob is out of line correcting the terminology. I mean aren't we here to learn the proper terms and information about our hobby. When we allow misinformation to continue, then we are part of the problem. As far as the media goes, I never count on them getting it correct, most of the time they are to bias against snakes to really care if their information is correct or not.

[StudentoReptile]

Oh no, I wasn't getting onto Rob. Sorry if it came across that way.

[bushsnake]

In my opinion, it is not a competition. I can't speak for anyone else, bu I certainly didn't participate in this post for any form of notoriety.

There is a very specific and scientific method for identifying animals (it's how scientists classify animals and plants into taxonomy in the first place!). Yet a lot of people still go by "what it looks like" and their first step is to "google it" (not saying that is what you did, Jerry, just making a point). Well, how many times have you googled something, looked for images, and got some pretty outlandish results that obviously weren't what you were searching for? Hmmm? So if you are put in "adult black rat snake" in the search engine, you may very well indeed get some images for black racers, indigo snakes, melanistic eastern hogs, and even grey ratsnakes in the mix. Someone not in the know might grab one of those and say, "OOO, that's what I found!" and assume it was whatever they searched for.

In this instance, one of a few distinct characteristics that separates black racers from black ratsnakes is that the former has smooth scales, while the latter has some keeled scalation. There are other factors (scale count, distribution), that can help, but when all you have is a photo...meh.

This is why I have recently adopted the method of using a dichotomous key for identification. I encourage others to do so as well.
How do you scientificly i.d. a snake thru a pucture....you did what we all did....educated guess....most of the time the location is most important info when it comes to identification of a herp in a picture....for example a lousiana pine can look just like a bullsnake from illinois.

[StudentoReptile]

How do you scientificly i.d. a snake thru a pucture....you did what we all did....educated guess....most of the time the location is most important info when it comes to identification of a herp in a picture....for example a lousiana pine can look just like a bullsnake from illinois.

You are correct (and I even acknowledged this myself), there is only so much one can deduce from a photo. But I did not guess. You apparently didn't read all my posts in this thread. Yes, initially, I did look at the photo of a black snake, and run through all the possible candidates: black ratsnake, black racer, melanistic eastern hognose, black pine snake, eastern indigo snake. Through the process of elimination (much of what the methodology behind a dichotomous key consists of), I determined the most likely candidate was a black racer (true, indigos also have smooth scales, but finding them in the wild is a rare occurence). I did have to play the odds a bit there.

You can call it whatever helps you sleep at night, but there was a very specific way I identified the snake in question. I wasn't guessing. Mind you, if the photo was smaller and/or poorer quality, I wouldn't have been able to do so. In that case, I probably would have asked some more questions (as others did) mainly the location of where it was found, to help narrow down the search. As Jerry confirmed, black ratsnakes aren't listed as native to the area of this snake, but at that point, I had already deduced what species it was.

As I said earlier, location is helpful but not the most reliable. Species long listed as not found in a particular area have suddenly been discovered there. Field guides are often a little "off" on their distribution maps.
------------

Again, my main point was to encourage EVERYONE to familiarize themselves with using a dichotomous key, so they do not have to rely on the "infallible" internet, a close friend's ability to interpret their own photography skills, or field guides.

[Lankyrob]

Oh no, I wasn't getting onto Rob. Sorry if it came across that way.

I mever took it this way :) we're good :)

Thanks for "defending me" tho ssssnakessss :)

[Rick10]

Lankyrob,

Thanks for correcting me on "venomous" not "poisonous". That makes sense, no offense taken. That's why I came here, to learn more.

What would be the preferred tool and method for picking up a live copperhead? Hopefully not a $100 tool.

[StudentoReptile]

Lankyrob,

Thanks for correcting me on "venomous" not "poisonous". That makes sense, no offense taken. That's why I came here, to learn more.

What would be the preferred tool and method for picking up a live copperhead? Hopefully not a $100 tool.

A good sturdy hook, ideally two (one for each hand). You don't have to go about and buy the most expensive hook there is, but you do get what you pay for.

On the flip side, with the right materials and resourcefulness, you can fashion something that will function just as good and cost you less then $30.

[Rick10]

I just got reprimanded from someone in our development who said that I should have killed the snake or left it at my neighbor's house. Here is his statement in an email he sent to the neighborhood.

"Not to undo your great work and cause, but we recently we had the local TN Wildlife Officer speak to our Rotary Club and he spoke to the RBHOO as well. He stated that taking a wild animal from it's current habit and placing it in another location rarely works. About 90% of the time they won't survive. Other critters in the area will kill them or they don't know where the food source is located and they starve to death. He stated it was more humane to kill them than relocate them. Large animals do better, but small animals such as raccoons, opossums, skunks and snakes don't make it.
I'm no expert, I'm just quoting an expert."

Do you guys agree, I should have killed it, because the neighbor definitely did not want it near his house.

[StudentoReptile]

It varies with species. I have heard that timber rattlesnakes have trouble acclimating to new areas when relocated.

Box turtles also show pretty strong site fidelity and often don't fare well if relocated. On the flipside, most aquatic turtle species do just fine.

But to throw out a huge statistic (that probably isn't correct) for all wild mammals, birds, reptiles, etc...is a pretty strong and rather inaccurate statement IMHO. Many smaller snakes do well enough if relocated. More studies need to be done on each species before making such an outlandish claim.

No, I don't think you should have killed it. I would have done the same thing, and have done so many times. What are you going to do, kill every nuisance animal you find? Or take it in?

[Lankyrob]

Hell, at the end of the day if that stat os right then it will die either way BUT if there is a 10% chance that it could survive then surely let it have that chance!! At let if it dies in the wild it is helping the ecosystem by feeding something else!M

[Rick10]

Another neighbor came back with this response:

"Rick, bet you didn't know it's actually against the law in TN to kill a snake! I'm not familiar with this web site (Laws About Killing Snakes in Tennessee | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/info_8718418_laws-killing-snakes-tennessee.html)), but assuming it is reliable, it clearly states killing a snake is illegal, with an exception for one in your home."

I figure like both of you guys that giving the snake a chance is better than killing it on the spot. To me that would just be wrong. I think a snake might have a good shot in a new environment.

[Cloudkicker]

Before reading any of the comments, first thing it that came to mind was Drymarchon couperi... From what I have read, they can range up into Tennessee from Georgia.

Either way, it really doesn't look like a Racer or a Black Rat. The head scales are way too indigo looking.

EDIT: Dug up some scale count papers on Northern Black Rats... seems to fit better for this picture than Drymarchon... so I guess, like most others are saying, this IS actually a black rat lol.

[SSSSnakes]

Another neighbor came back with this response:

"Rick, bet you didn't know it's actually against the law in TN to kill a snake! I'm not familiar with this web site (Laws About Killing Snakes in Tennessee | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/info_8718418_laws-killing-snakes-tennessee.html)), but assuming it is reliable, it clearly states killing a snake is illegal, with an exception for one in your home."

I figure like both of you guys that giving the snake a chance is better than killing it on the spot. To me that would just be wrong. I think a snake might have a good shot in a new environment.

I know on NY it is considered harassing wild life to kill or relocate the snake, unless you have a license allowing you to do so.

[StudentoReptile]

Before reading any of the comments, first thing it that came to mind was Drymarchon couperi... From what I have read, they can range up into Tennessee from Georgia.

Either way, it really doesn't look like a Racer or a Black Rat. The head scales are way too indigo looking.

EDIT: Dug up some scale count papers on Northern Black Rats... seems to fit better for this picture than Drymarchon... so I guess, like most others are saying, this IS actually a black rat lol.

It is not a black rat snake, for reasons already addressed. Please read the thread again.
--------
While I wouldn't completely rule out Drymarchon couperi, there are several factors that do not favor this candidate:

1.) Range - while yes, some list (possibly erroneously...see previous comments about the inaccuracy of field guide distribution maps) the eastern indigo has being found that far north, obviously, this would be in on the outer fringes of their more common stomping grounds in Georgia, Florida, and along the gulf coast. Not to mention their status as endangered species, this would mean finding one in TN would be a very rare and noteworthy occurence.

2.) Rarity - As mentioned before, this is an endangered species. Even in the "heart" of its natural range, it is not a common species to encounter.

3.) Body shape - The snake in the photograph is rather slender for a healthy Drymarchon sp. Anyone who has seen one or worked with them knows what I'm talking about. If you were to take a skinny indigo by cross-section, you would find a more triangular shape, not a round one, like the snake pictured.

4.) Scales - Yes, both racers and indigos have smooth scales, but anyone who has actually seen an indigo in person can attest to the superior "glossiness" of their scalation. Black racers simply cannot compare.

See the photos below for comparison:

Eastern indigo snake
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/GCARK/IMG_1134.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/GCARK/IMG_1136.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/ReptileSerpentarium/IMG_0890.jpg

Black Racer
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/field%20herping/blackracer_3.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/field%20herping/blackracer.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/field%20herping/blackracer_box.jpg

When one takes into account all those factors, the most likely candidate is a black racer.

[Rick10]

Here is more detail on the Tennessee snake protection laws:

Since the snake I relocated was never a "captive" snake, except for about 30 minutes, I don't think I violated any laws or policies.

http://www.tennsnakes.org/reptile_review.pdf