Second thoughts on Best Lizard for kids?

[StudentoReptile]

So I posted a while back about us planning on getting a bearded dragon for my son, who is currently 18 months old. Here's the thread: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/pogona-vitticeps/93919-need-bearded-dragon-refresher-course.html

Obviously, any interaction will be supervised and of course, I will be doing 100% of the care & husbandry. We have a couple herper friends who introduced their little girl to critters pretty young, and it worked out well. Likewise, I want to introduce my boys to animals pretty early on as well.

Here's the thing....I really do not like bearded dragons, and I am not really keen to taking care of roaches. I understand beardies are very friendly and tolerate a lot of regular-handling, but I have always found them to be a little more "stinky" than any other lizard species I've cared for, and while if push came to shove, I know I could hack dealing with Dubia, I'm not looking forward to caring for bugs of any sort. Maybe its because of all the recent spider problems we've been having, but my "ick" sensor has been on high-alert lately, and the less bugs I gotta to deal with, the lower my heart rate is.

The wife is more inclined to a beardie though, because of the aforementioned friendliness. She says that's the only lizard she would mess with on her own while I'm not around. I am now pushing for a blue-tongue skink. We've had them before: easy, durable, SLOW-moving, no need for live prey. In fact, the last one we had was technically hers, and she kinda just got bored with it. I don't know why she is not groovin' on it again.

I dunno...lots of factors here: as the primary care-taker, I think I should get some say-so on what animal we get for the kid, but at the same time, I want to get something my wife will not be reluctant to handle as well.

Anyone want to weigh in on this? Beardie or BTS? Maybe another suggestion?

[Gungirl]

I think a BTS is the best thing.. My son (8yrs old) love his and takes 95% care of it now on his own, I only help with a few things.

[Valvaren]

I only really have two things to say, as far as stinky I bathed my beardie everyday since I got her when she was young and now she is potty trained to only go in water, she will do her dance and refuse to go until she is in a bath and you can't smell it at all. And trust me I know how smelly beardie poop can be and I have a horrible gag reflex, sight of poop makes me gag so my Fiancee has to clean everyone else but I can handle Thil's poop fine since in the water you can't smell it so it helps ALOT.

As for roaches, other then feeding them and feeding them off you really don't have to do much with them and I will tell you roaches are million times better then anything else out there. If you end up with any animal that has to eat crickets you're going to hate it at one point for whatever reason as you probably know. Roaches make no noise, no smell, don't fly (atleast i've never had mine fly) and mine have done a good job keeping their population controlled, I know i've heard of other being overrun and I got to a point I was worried about it but then I stopped seeing mass growth, it was like they hit a plateau, I still have lots of females and males but the amount of babies has decreased.

Anyway basically, you wont find anything else like a beardie, they really are one of a kind, and for a kid I really think they are the best animal, they provide an amazing yet simple bonding experience and they really do attach to you, Thil spent 95% of her growing up with me and if she is out she has to be able to touch me, its really something I think your kids would enjoy. Also as stated they do handle touching and handling very well.

After re-reading I noticed you made a point about BTS being slow moving, beardies aren't always the active critters, mine is very laid back, moves when she wants to but really just enjoy finding a spot to settle on you and then just sleep or chill, which makes her easy to also do chores with, I used to do dishes with Thil when she was a baby and I still do today.

But again, your choice, I think the amount of fun you would have with a beardie would over weigh the problems with bugs.

Also as i'm sure you already know one beardie to one tank is recommended and if you do get two its always best that you make sure they can't see each from their tanks because more often then not they do stress each other out.

[BarelyBreathing]

I'd go with blule tongue skink. They can be just as, if not even more friendly than bearded dragons, because they've been known to exhibit keeper recognition.

[StudentoReptile]

I only really have two things to say, as far as stinky I bathed my beardie everyday since I got her when she was young and now she is potty trained to only go in water, she will do her dance and refuse to go until she is in a bath and you can't smell it at all. And trust me I know how smelly beardie poop can be and I have a horrible gag reflex, sight of poop makes me gag so my Fiancee has to clean everyone else but I can handle Thil's poop fine since in the water you can't smell it so it helps ALOT.

LOL...but I don't have to worry about bathing or potty-training other lizards! ;)

As for roaches, other then feeding them and feeding them off you really don't have to do much with them and I will tell you roaches are million times better then anything else out there. If you end up with any animal that has to eat crickets you're going to hate it at one point for whatever reason as you probably know. Roaches make no noise, no smell, don't fly (atleast i've never had mine fly) and mine have done a good job keeping their population controlled, I know i've heard of other being overrun and I got to a point I was worried about it but then I stopped seeing mass growth, it was like they hit a plateau, I still have lots of females and males but the amount of babies has decreased.

It's really not so much the care, or population explosion I'm worried about (I know plenty of folks around I can dump access feeder insects on!). And I do recognize the benefit of raising them, and their advantages over other types of feeder insects. But I just don't like touching them, or anything. It's generally why I have avoided keeping insectivorous herps for years.

Anyway basically, you wont find anything else like a beardie, they really are one of a kind, and for a kid I really think they are the best animal, they provide an amazing yet simple bonding experience and they really do attach to you, Thil spent 95% of her growing up with me and if she is out she has to be able to touch me, its really something I think your kids would enjoy. Also as stated they do handle touching and handling very well.

After re-reading I noticed you made a point about BTS being slow moving, beardies aren't always the active critters, mine is very laid back, moves when she wants to but really just enjoy finding a spot to settle on you and then just sleep or chill, which makes her easy to also do chores with, I used to do dishes with Thil when she was a baby and I still do today.

I know everyone has their own experiences and preferences, but I know plenty of folks who will say the exact same thing about BTS! lol...Personally, I think it may be a bit of a numbers game; more folks keep beardies than BTS, so a lot more folks are more inclined to opt for beardies. I would really like to hear from people who have decent experience with both lizards.

But again, your choice, I think the amount of fun you would have with a beardie would over weigh the problems with bugs.

Yeah...again, if I'm going to be the one caring for it, I just don't want it to turn into a "gosh, I really wish we had gotten a ____ instead!" situation.

Also as i'm sure you already know one beardie to one tank is recommended and if you do get two its always best that you make sure they can't see each from their tanks because more often then not they do stress each other out.

I have no intention of getting a 2nd one of whatever we end up choosing at this time. But yes, I did already know that. Thanks anyway.

[Zoo Nanny]

I'm a bit partial to BTS and think they make a great beginner pet. As far as the stink factor mine beats out every animal that has ever lived with me! When he goes the entire house smells. He also only eats baby food chicken(won't touch anything that moves)which is what probably causes the stench. He also will eat baby food veggies poured over his greens when time is a factor.
I find beardies a little bit more labor intensive and care with the diet. Beardies also seem to be more at risk for dietary and gi problems. The BTS is easier to handle for young delicate hands as far as body. The nails on both are about the same, long sleeve a must.
Nancy

[BarelyBreathing]

Baby food should NEVER be fed to any reptile. Most contain preservatives known to makke reptiles very sick, and even preservative free ones are too high in sugar for their bodies to process.

[StudentoReptile]

Baby food should NEVER be fed to any reptile. Most contain preservatives known to makke reptiles very sick, and even preservative free ones are too high in sugar for their bodies to process.

Ditto. Baby food is for baby humans...not reptiles.

[Terranaut]

I gotta jump on the beardie wagon.
The stinky poo is absolutely the only negative.
As far a s dubia. I don't touch mine. I have a 1/2 piece of egg carton in their tub. At feeding I pull out the small piece which will have 10 -20 dubia on it and shake it over the tank until the right amount fall off then toas it back into the colony. Very easy.

[Zoo Nanny]

Unfortunetly it was my only alternative. I tried him on a number of different foods along with pinkies all of which he refused. He was being fed cat food and grapes when I got him. He now eats a variety of greens, veggies and fruits. I buy him organic chicken with broth and avoid any with additives. When I cheat and give him sweet potato baby food this is also organic with no additives. I have parrots so have to be extremely careful on just what I bring into the house.

[BarelyBreathing]

Cut him off baby food all together. He will eat.

[Zoo Nanny]

He's around 15 years old and no I've been that route and he didn't eat. He will eat his greens, vegetables and fruits but not any other protien. The vet was concerned enough to have me return to the baby food chicken. We even tried diced up pinkie with the fur removed, no go. I've never come across another reptile that refused to eat prey.

[BarelyBreathing]

What have you tried? I've gotten picky blue tongues to eat organic leaned shaved turkey breast. It's not great, but it's better than baby food. Have you tried that? Or roaches? Crickets? Live pinky? Ground adult mice? Night crawlers? Snails?

[Zoo Nanny]

It's an extensive list which I've added to over the years. No snails but everything else including putting them through the food processor and mixing in his salad. Also tried wax worms and meal worms. If you check the ingredients on organic baby food chicken it list chicken and water. I would be happy to discuss this with you at length but I really don't want to hijack this thread.

[rmfsnakes32]

I am partial to beardies I think even as babies they are less flighty than other lizards

[Aaron_S]

The answer is simple. BTS.

[StudentoReptile]

I have spoken with a few other keepers that have had good success supplementing commercial diet and/or canned insects for their beardies. Not my first choice, and I know it is hit-and-miss, but I am confident if I start with a younger animal, I can make sure it gets what it needs through freeze-dried insects and commercial food along with the veggies.

I'm still on the fence though, but at least I know that live insects isn't necessarily mandatory if we go with a bearded dragon.

[MoreliAddict]

Why not a Chameleon?

[Terranaut]

The only issue I have with beardie food or bugs in a can is price. My table veggies (raw) and dubia are just so easy and cheap I could never go back to buying food.

[Little Wise Owl]

Baby food should NEVER be fed to any reptile. Most contain preservatives known to makke reptiles very sick, and even preservative free ones are too high in sugar for their bodies to process.

Even if the ingredient list and packaging states it only contains chicken and is preservative free...? And the nutrient analysis states the amount of sugar in the food (most are sugar free) and the chicken type would have no sugar at all anyway. Not that I agree with feeding pure chicken baby food as a staple but people seem to jump to conclusions about it.

[StudentoReptile]

Why not a Chameleon?

Um...not exactly my first choice for introducing a toddler to animals...as well as wanting to steer clear of lizards that need live insects.

[Gungirl]

Why not a Chameleon?

That is a horrible suggestion. Chameleons need very specific care and are best left not handled or touched.

[StudentoReptile]

That is a horrible suggestion. Chameleons need very specific care and are best left not handled or touched.

Exactly...I was trying to be polite, but yes, that was my first reaction, as well as wondering if they had even read my original post.

Granted I have made the same mistake before myself (posting before reading everything), so no harm, no foul...good thing I know better, though!

[MoreliAddict]

That is a horrible suggestion. Chameleons need very specific care and are best left not handled or touched.
Exactly...I was trying to be polite, but yes, that was my first reaction, as well as wondering if they had even read my original post.

Granted I have made the same mistake before myself (posting before reading everything), so no harm, no foul...good thing I know better, though!
That wasn't a suggestion, that was a question.

I don't know much about lizards, my girlfriend wants a chameleon...

[StudentoReptile]

Well, then to answer your question, I'll elaborate on Gungirl's statement.

Chameleons are very easily stressed, and most specimens do not tolerate handling. They are also delicate, in more ways than one, requiring specific caging and humidity needs. Great lizards for someone who wants a display animal in a densely-planted enclosure. Not so much for someone who wants a resilient "hands-on" critter they can take out and "play with" a lot, especially for children.

--------------------------

And just so everyone understands (in case there was any confusion or doubt from the OP)...my 18-month-old boy will NOT be handling any lizards on his own for a while! Any interactions will only involve petting, light touching and maybe setting said lizard in his lap...all carefully supervised. I'm not a newb when it comes to this stuff.

I have kept both types of lizards before, although it has been a while for beardies. Nevertheless, I feel I have a decent grasp of their temperament, and general husbandry.

The long and short of this thread is basically my wife wants a bearded dragon because she thinks they're cuter and nicer than BTS. I happen to like BTS better, feel they are nearly as docile as beardies, and not as stinky. And again, there is my hang-up of dealing with live insects on a regular basis.

While I admit I'm already a tad biased, I do want to ask the question to everyone who has posted already (thank you, BTW): how many of you have had experienced keeping both beardies and BTS?

[Zoo Nanny]

Both at my home as my personal pets and at work. I have a question. I know that there is some controversy regarding crickets vs. mealworm for over all nutritional purposes and calcium content with beardies. At the same time though I have also read articles in regards to crickets causing impaction in some beardies proan to it.
Meal worms are so easy to keep. Easy to maintain and gut load. If you were to go the bearded dragon route would feeding meal worms as a staple be awful for him?

[StudentoReptile]

I have heard and read from several sources that mealworms are not a great source of protein compared to roaches or crickets. Essentially, too much chitinous shell, and not a lot of meat inside. Yes, easier to raise, but not as nutritious for lizards. That's why I was leaning towards roaches.

[Little Wise Owl]

Both at my home as my personal pets and at work. I have a question. I know that there is some controversy regarding crickets vs. mealworm for over all nutritional purposes and calcium content with beardies. At the same time though I have also read articles in regards to crickets causing impaction in some beardies proan to it.
Meal worms are so easy to keep. Easy to maintain and gut load. If you were to go the bearded dragon route would feeding meal worms as a staple be awful for him?

It baffles me where this information comes from. I've heard from so many different people that [insert feeder name] will give your lizard [insert health issue]. Crickets, superworms, mealworm, etc... I personally think no feeder insect is significantly better than another. Variety is best. Crickets some week, mealworms the next, a few superworms here and there, a couple wax worms now and then... A healthy bearded dragon should never become impacted by any common feeder insect unless its fed unnecessarily large amounts. But heck, even when overfed, I'd see a regurgitation incoming rather than an impaction.

Adult Bearded Dragons thrive on mostly greens as adults anyway. I'd worry more about the variety of vegetation rather than insects with an adult beardie (although both components should be considered important).

[Zoo Nanny]

You would be amazed at the people I come across that are clueless when feeding there herps. I fostered one bearded for 6 months to try to get him back to good health. His owner was feeding him only crickets and mealworms, no veggies at all. He looked to be a very young animal no more than 6 months old but was actually 2 years old. He suffered from malnutrition and impaction. She kept him on calci sand. He's doing good now, I gave her a list of all the foods and amounts that he should be fed. He will remain stunted at this point in size but he's eating well and has taken on his beautiful adult coloration. The woman does love him but just didn't do the research needed when she got him, also didn't take him to the vet. He also now does not have any sand in his tank. She uses carpet or paper only with him now. The vet doesn't want him back on any sand or injestable substrates for fear of him becoming impacted again.

[jaleely]

okay, i'm going to go out on a limb here...and probably against the popular opinion, but just like i think an 18 month old kid can't truly enjoy disneyland, is the kid really going to enjoy a lizard at all? I mean, at least wait until the kid can retain memories *lol*
I do think exposure to animals is *GREAT* actually, but since you're planning on having this be a pet for the kid, why not just wait until the kid can pick out it's own animal, and respond to it that way?
i mean can anyone remember being 18 months old, and like, function on that memory? i mean like have it be a big part of development, unless it was a tragic or traumatic memory?

i know, i know. I'm not trying to be rude, at all really, but i'm just wondering...maybe it might be better to wait. The kid might like snakes or something more anyway. *shrug*

[Raan]

Me and a few of my friends all had newts when we were younger Just a suggestion for something easy to care for that doesn't need a lot of space

[StudentoReptile]

okay, i'm going to go out on a limb here...and probably against the popular opinion, but just like i think an 18 month old kid can't truly enjoy disneyland, is the kid really going to enjoy a lizard at all? I mean, at least wait until the kid can retain memories *lol*
I do think exposure to animals is *GREAT* actually, but since you're planning on having this be a pet for the kid, why not just wait until the kid can pick out it's own animal, and respond to it that way?
i mean can anyone remember being 18 months old, and like, function on that memory? i mean like have it be a big part of development, unless it was a tragic or traumatic memory?

i know, i know. I'm not trying to be rude, at all really, but i'm just wondering...maybe it might be better to wait. The kid might like snakes or something more anyway. *shrug*

I understand where you're coming from, but based on some of what you said, I'm going to go out on a limb myself and presume you are not a parent yourself. To say an 18-month-old cannot truly enjoy disney world is rather innaccurate. Heck, my wife ended up taking him to Disneyworld last year when he was only 6 months old...and he loved it! Does he remember it? No, of course not...but it was still a memorable experience for him to enjoy something he had never seen before. Very similar to when we took a small family vacation to the beach last month. He got a huge kick out of playing in the sand and loved playing in the surf (supervised of course). Can he really remember that now? Probably not, but still fun. It's like they say of a child's first birthday: it's actually more for the parents than for the kid. Anyone who is a parent would know where I'm coming from.

OF COURSE, when he is older, we'll allow him to pick out his own pet. I can't wait to take him to the nearest expo and let him choose his first herp. But again, we know other people who have done this with their children at early ages, and while some disagree, we feel it is important to be able interact with something and we can use it to at least instill gentleness and respect. He is already at an age where he is learning to obey us, and he is especially loving and gentle with his younger brother, who is currently 6-months.

In my experience, snakes of any species are too unpredictable for a toddler to be near. Obviously, any animal has a degree of unpredictability involved, but even the nicest snake can snap. IN 20 yrs of experience, I've only encountered one bearded dragon that bit, and I honestly think it was mentally-handicapped. Never had a BTS bite or even nip, so I trust those species, as well as my ability to control/supervise them with a child over other reptiles.

In all honesty, by the time I get the rest of the enclosure, he will already be two at the rate I am setting things up as well as finally deciding which lizard we want to get! LOL

[red ink]

Mate... I keep both and for your criterias for selection I would go the BTS by far....

A BTS can survive without any insect consumption at all... just high quality dog food for protein supplements and veggies (lean chicken meat is good as well). The calcium can be provided through calcium powder with D3 (I use vertebrae prey for this as an added supplement as well) They are quite slow so perfect for a young toddler to have a play around with without it bolting to quickly and I think they are less fragile than BDs as well.

Even the UVB requirements of BTS is debatable as I have known people who have kept them for years without any UVB and do fine. I do not provide UV to mine just the occational natural sunlight when the weather permits.

[StudentoReptile]

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

I think I'm going to put my foot down and use my influence as the primary pet care-taker of our household (LOL) to push for the blue-tongue skink. I have had experience with both types of lizards, and I really do feel this will be a better fit. I'm more than confident about their temperament, and their durable, rigid body structure can withstand any occasional "squeezing" from a small child...much better than a beardie. They typically defecate once a day, so establishing a "routine" for potty-training will be a little easier than that of the beardie, which goes multiple times a day!