Warning on breeding! ~attn: graphic pics~

[Matt]

well. I got this female rootbeer cornsnake from a breeder in the states a little while back.
She was sold to me as an adult, but when i recieved her, I realized she was too small to breed, so i didnt pair her up.

BUT, aparently, he had already bred her this season and when it was time to lay, since she was too small she became egg bound.

I contacted him and appartently he negelected to tell me she had been bred. I guess its a loss i have to take!

This was the first egg, she never got it out past this point.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/20p1010021-med.jpg

Over night, she had died, so i decided to try and save the eggs. I got them all out ok, and they looked good. But unfortunately, they didnt make it past their first week.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/20p1010024-med.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/20p1010027-med.jpg

Anyways, just wanted to put this up as a reminder to be patient to breed, wait 'til your snakes are of good size and dont push it....it'll do more harm than good!

cheers

[BoidKeeper]

That truely is tragic. I agree with you this post does serve as a warning and a deterent to those who are thinking about pushing there luck and try to breed before the snake is ready. I've read that eggs that are removed and not laid never hatch because they are lacking a coating of bacteria that they receive while being laid naturally.
Good pics.
Trevor

[Simon]

Yes this is a really really true warning. This is such a tragic to a beautiful snake like this. But remember and MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT PUSHING THE SNAKE TO BREED FOR YOU!!!

Besides breeding all these little snakes out, you might not even be able to sell these snakes out. So remember not to breed snakes too early!!!!

Matt I do feel really bad for you. Sorry about the loss!!!

[Tim_Cranwill]

That is truly sad:(

Thank you for posting though. I'm sure it will be a heads up to many of us 1st time breeders to take it nice and slow.

Can you tell us any more info about the snake's age, weight, length and etc?

Thanks,
Tim Cranwill

[eyespy]

Thank you for giving us such an eloquent warning. I am very sorry for the loss of such a beautiful girl, and quite angered at that breeder. He should have known better! and now everyone suffers the results.

[Dom]

sory to hear Matt..

Very tragic loos but I got to say .. they make for interesting pictures..

Take
care

[Matt]

Trevor, ya, I heard the same thing about being coated when the eggs come out, Im not sure if anyone has had any luck with cutting them out, and I certainly didnt expect anything, but I gave it a shot anyways

Cranwill, This happened relivitely soon after I got her, so i never got a chance to weigh her, and not totally sure of the age, but i expect she was a little under 2 years old (probably a little too young for most corns to breed). as for length, she was close to 24", maybe a little more.
here is a pic of her full size, use the tools as a size comparison.

thanks for all your condolences :)

[Dino]

Thank you for sharing your your hardship. I hope that your loss serves as a warning for others.

Truely Sorry
Dino

[MidnightIris]

This should serve as a warning to others. It's selfish and not worth a corn's life to breed them too soon just to try and make more money.

Very sorry for your loss, she was a very beautiful little snake.

[vanderkm]

So sorry to hear about the loss of this female, she was very lovely. Just wanted to mention that it is not only snakes that are bred too young that can have problems with egg binding. Females can produce eggs and have problems with egg binding even if never exposed to a male. We had it happen with a two year old corn and other people have had the same experience so it pays to keep tabs on your females - we handle ours at least weekly to make sure we notice if there is egg development and we can be watching them. In some cases the eggs will be re-abosorbed, but it is better to be aware of the potential for problems.

mary v.

[gonesnakee]

As Mary V. has already mentioned a female does not have to be with a male to produce eggs & become eggbound. They do it all on their own sometimes. In this case judging by the eggs, I would say that she was bred though, as the eggs look like they could have been fertile if not for being retained too long. This does not mean that it was an intentional breeding. Most people don't hesitate to keep corns together. OK for babies, OK for adults, bad idea for adolesents. "Teenage" snakes are like teenage boys & they start having sex at the first chance they get. They cannot be trusted "alone" with young females. There have been many breedings that have taken place as a result of the snakes owner not housing adolesent snakes seperate, as in my opinion (& many others) all snakes should be seperate other than for breeding purposes. Many people house a bunch together not realizing that they are putting the young females at risk. The males will breed them & the possibility of egg binding a smaller female is very real. Most pet owners don't realize the risks they are even running by keeping young males & females together. I hope my input helps save somebodys snake because I know whats its like to lose one from eggbinding & I don't want to have any one else (or their snakes!) have to go thru it for no reason.
Mark IsBell - GONE SNAKEE!

[Katt]

In my opinion that breeder murdered that corn.

[snake_lover]

Sorry to hear about the loss man..

[Linds]

Sorry for your loss. Poor little girl :( So sad someone would even condsider putting the animals welfare at stake like that, all for a chance at producing babies a year earlier...slow and steady wins the race...

[Kathy]

From what it sounds like she probably wasnt bred intentionally. Had she bee, then he wouldnt have wanted to sell her until she had laid her eggs, so that he would get the clutch. Why else would he risk the snakes life just to turn around and sell it, and not even mention that she may be gravid?

[Matt]

kathy, although that makes sense, it isnt the case.
I had a talk with the guy I bought her from, and he said, yes she was bred intentionally
The reason he sold her was because he was moving and wanted to sell all his corns (I bought 6 others at the same time) and he didnt want to wait for her to drop....he said he wasnt even sure she was gravid

I couldnt believe that anyone would breed a corn at that size, but he said he though she was a fine size, so he went ahead and paired her with a male.
We had a bit of an argument

I know its stupid, but she was bred on purpose...I heard it from the horses mouth!

[Florence]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your corn.

Somehow, I'm wondering whether your snake's death could have been avoided at your end. (Obviously, you had no control over what happened before you got her.)

A couple of years ago, my speckled kingsnake got eggbound. Even though she had not been bred, she ovulated anyway. When the time came, she tried to lay her eggs but couldn't. The problem was the first egg that was much too big to pass. So I took her to my vet. He took a seringe, went through the skin and the egg shell and sucked out half the liquid of the first egg, so that she could pass this egg as well as the remaining ones. I took her home, and true enough, she laid all her eggs without any problem. She's been fine ever since (and hasn't laid eggs again).

I just thought this was worth mentioning, in case it happens to someone else.

[Andy_G]

What a horrible person. Why would he rush the little beauty like that?

[Matt]

florance, i have never heard of a vet doing that, sounds like a good idea, something to kep in mind if it happens to anyone else.
thanks for the insight!

[brig]

Teenage" snakes are like teenage boys & they start having sex at the first chance they get. They cannot be trusted "alone" with young females.

We had a close call with that one. In complete ignorance, we kept a male and female together for the first year we had them, which would have made them about 15months old.

We actually caught them racing round the enclosure, and thought they were fighting - we realised in time and grabbed them out and separated them. The female hadn't quite been 'caught'!!!

And then I read up all about ideal size and eggbinding, etc. etc. etc. and went through a few weeks of agony realising that it might not have been the first time he did this!

The immediately got 'separate bedrooms', and everything was ok, she never became gravid, we were lucky.

This is the sort of thing that sellers often don't tell people - they will tell you how to breed them, if that's what you want to do, but they DON'T tell you how NOT to breed them!

Anyway, sorry for your loss, Matt. I would be absolutely desolate if that had happened to me.

Brig.

[crimsonking]

Oxytosin can sometimes induce the laying in "egg bound" snakes too. I've heard of many that have used a syringe to remove the liquid and help the snake pass the shell. I have a corn that is less than 24" that was unintentionally bred while housed w/other young ones. Luckily, she did lay successfully. A small clutch of 6 that all hatched. I think they'll put so much energy into the eggs/laying that they lose a lot of "growing" time as well. Age of the animal MAY have something to do with it too.

[Florence]

Now that you mention it, I remember my vet injected my speckled king with something to induce the egg-laying (on top of sucking the liquid out), just to make sure she'd lay her eggs. However, I don't remember what he injected her with.

Thanks for adding this info to the thread. :)

[Matt]

Ive heard of oxytocin being used on snakes that have laid one or two eggs and havent laid the rest for a couple days, makes sense that it may help in egg bound snakes as well.

I this case however, her cloaca was so small compared to the eggs, i dont think it would have helped

would have been worth a try though, couldnt have gone much worse than it did!

[Gorelith]

That's a shame, sorry for your loss but more importantly sorry for the corns the breeder still has. It's terrible that with the amount of resources online and in books that someone who calls themself a breeder doesn't care enough to look at basic husbandry information. Again, sorry for your loss.

[gonesnakee]

The proper term for the Vet procedure of "sucking the insides of the eggs out" is Aspiration. This procedure can only be performed successfully within the first week of eggbinding while the eggs are still soft enough to penetrate with a sirringe. You go through the snakes skin into the middle of the egg & suck the contents out. It is usually done to the egg closest to the vent & it never hurts to do one or 2 farther up depending on how many are "stuck" in the poor girl. This procedure combined with gentle handling & warm baths will hopefully help the snake pass all remaining eggs. If this doesn't work you can actually have the eggs surgically removed. Unfortunately snakes don't take to surgery very well & the specimen may not survive. It also costs approx. $200 - $300 & if it is successful the female will no longer be able to produce anyway. Surgery is a last effort attempt to save the snake's life & unfortunately most people cannot justify this finiancally so they let the snake die (not fun) or euthanize it (even less fun). Very sad, but true. I have lost one snake in the past & have had to have my Vet friend help me aspirate eggs on a few occassions (unfortunately, but successfully!). All my bad experiences have been with older female breeders. Most people think this only happens to young females, but older breeders are apt to eggbind also. I like many other breeders keep a large # of snakes in rubbermaid tubs & because I have so many, they don't always recv. much handling. These "old girls" can become lazy & "out of shape" as a result of this & even though they have always laid successfully in the past they may not be able to pass everthing as they get older. This in my opinion is a valid point on why older females should be retired & not "bred to death". It sucks to let an adult female who has been a great breeder go to someone as a pet, but it sucks much worse (especially for the snake!) to watch her eggbind & possibly die because you are TOO #@$%#$% GREEDY to admit that she is old & needs to be retired to "pet" status. I hope this will be a "wakeup call" to people out there & helps save some snakes despite peoples greed & general disrespect to their animals. Mark IsBell - GONE SNAKEE! P.S. Oxytosin (spelling?) is only effective within the first few days of eggbinding accordding to the Vets/breeders that I have discussed it with. M.I.

[Lizzy001]

SORRY ABOUT UR LOSS....


i hope a message has been put across to people who want to breed their snakes early

[BeHeMoTh]

that really sux she looked really good, not to be intruding but how much did you spend on her

my condolences

[Matt]

BeHeMoTh,
i got her as a group with about 5 other "adult" corns. But they ended up costing me about $100 each.
Rootbeers are available on some lists in the states and they typically sell for about $40-$50 as hatchlings.

I hope to get some rootbeer hatchlings next season if your interested....Im keeping my fingers crossed :)

[Carrie]

I am so sorry for your sad loss she was beautiful, it really is so unfair that something so beautiful has to loose their life just because of one uncaring/careless (whatever the case maybe) breeder............