Feeding Questions

[Abby]

When I picked up my ball python, I was told that he was being fed two small mice on Wednesdays. How exactly should I approach this? Should I place both mice in at the same time? Or should I place one in, let him eat, and then the other right after?

I'm also not sure if I trust the place I bought him from anymore. I don't know his exact hatch date but the worker estimated he was between 3-4 months old. Is feeding him like they have been correct and OK to do?

Any other help regarding feeding would be great. I'm very new to all of this.

[Lankyrob]

I would get it to eat rats as soon as possible, i have never fed more than one preyitem at a feed so not sure how people go about it. :)

[rmfsnakes32]

You can feed them back to back but rats are better than you only have to feed one item

[shaunyboy]

when upping a prey size,i usually feed 2 of their current prey for 4 feeds,if they take both prey items everytime,i deem them ready to go up a prey size

when feeding 2 prey items,you offer the first prey item,wait until its eaten that,then offer the 2nd prey item

re changing over to rats
i would feed it whatever its previous keeper fed it,just until it's eating regular for you (3 or 4 feeds),then once you have established its eating,i would then change it over onto rats,as i have found the older the snake gets,the harder it can be to cross them over,from mice to rats,and it takes an awfull lot of jumbo mice to feed an adult python

cheers shaun

[Abby]

So I'm having difficulties. I'm at a loss at what to do.
He would sort of chase the snake into a corner, and then eventually try to attack, and when he failed and the mouse got away, he'd be so confused and it would take him another ten-fifteen minutes to find the mouse again. He must have gotten frustrated because he went back into his hide. So the mouse is sleeping peacefully in the corner. I tried to be helpful and took out the hide and water dish so there are less obstacles, but he just has no interest right now...
What to do?

[Lankyrob]

Whatever you do DONT LEAVE THE MOUSE IN THE VIV UNATTENDED!!! I have only ever fed frozen/thawed prey so will let others help you :)

[Gungirl]

Was he being fed live before you got him? Maybe offer f/t or pre killed and see if he does better with that.

[SnakeyJay]

Take that live mouse out of there for starters!! Never leave it in there if he's not interested in eating or you'll end up with a dead snake...

Get him on frozen thawed rats as soon as possible for the good of your snake unless your happy to pay vet bills when the mouse bites him back.. Can I ask why you chose to feed live prey?

[Abby]

I just re read my post. I meant the snake chased the mouse, not the other way around. I chose to feed live because the worker at the store where I bought him said that's what they had been feeding him and that he wouldn't accept frozen.

He did end up eating each mouse successfully and no harm was done to the snake. Thanks for letting me know about not leaving the mouse in there.

[Kettennatter]

I just re read my post. I meant the snake chased the mouse, not the other way around. I chose to feed live because the worker at the store where I bought him said that's what they had been feeding him and that he wouldn't accept frozen.

He did end up eating each mouse successfully and no harm was done to the snake. Thanks for letting me know about not leaving the mouse in there.

Most stores will feed live because it is easier and often faster to feed. The movement of the prey and the body heat will stimulate the feeding response more easily. That being said, it may not be the best option for the snake. I would not base my decision on whether to feed f/t or not on what was done at the pet store.

[StudentoReptile]

Healthy snakes set-up in a proper habitat should have no problems dealing with live prey.

It's simply a matter of preference on the keeper's part whether you go with live, pre-killed or F/T.

[SnakeyJay]

I'd still switch him over to frozen thawed... The shop probably never tried very hard to switch him.

[SnakeyJay]

Healthy snakes set-up in a proper habitat should have no problems dealing with live prey.

It's simply a matter of preference on the keeper's part whether you go with live, pre-killed or F/T.

So your saying there's not a risk of the snake getting injured then?! Unless its a problem feeder there's nothing to be gained from live feeding but there is a lot to be lost.

[Snakefood]

every snake that I have gotten that was eating live I have successfully switched to F/T with very little troubles. the pro's to this are: the prey cant fight back, you can leave the prey in the viv till the snake is ready to eat, it is cheaper to buy frozen than live, and you can stock up when you find a good deal instead of trippin out to the pet store once/week for live food.

sorry, cant give you any pro's to feeding live..........

[Abby]

I am going to try switching to frozen, then. Thanks for your advice everyone!

[rmfsnakes32]

We feed all of ours live always have for years we supervise the feedings and our snakes are pefectly fine no scars scrapes or anything.

[StudentoReptile]

So your saying there's not a risk of the snake getting injured then?!


[sigh....] No I am not. You're putting words in my mouth. Read the post again. I said "Healthy snakes set-up in a proper habitat should have no problems dealing with live prey."

Yes, I will concur there is zero risk of a snake getting injured from a dead prey item. Happy?
------
However, one thing many people do not consider is how much bacteria you are exposing your frozen feeders to as you thaw them out. Anyone done studies on this? I mean, you basically just leaving a dead animal exposed to the open air, sometimes underneath or near a heat lamp, or in warm water. Indeed, there are cases of snakes eating dead prey in the wild, but usually recently-killed prey....not frozen prey thawed out. Most snakes eat fresh prey; i.e. live, that they either kill themselves or depending on the prey item or species, they don't kill it at all!

People rave about rats and mice biting and injuring their snake, but in nearly every case, it is error on the keeper's part. The rodent was left unattended. Wrong thing to do. Snake wasn't hungry?; well, why wasn't it hungry? Temps and habitat probably wasn't right. Either way, you shouldn't leave the prey in there unsupervised.

In my experience, a healthy snake will strike and grab the prey within a few minutes of being offered food. If that doesn't happen, its probably not going to eat at all. Either its in shed mode, or you're doing something wrong.

"Well, what if he strikes and grabs the rat wrong and it starts chewing on his neck?" So? Snakes have been grabbing their prey sideways, on the butt, by the spine, etc, for millions of years. Again, if they're healthy, and the habitat is set-up right with proper temps, they'd heal up fine. You can treat them with some antiseptic ointment to spead things along, but they'll be fine. Obviously, if the injury is serious, treat accordingly, but in my experience, when I have had a snake suffer a bite from a rodent during a ill-aimed feeding strike-n-coil, it was never anything serious. Again, if you have a healthy snake and you're doing things right, you should have little to worry about.

Unless its a problem feeder there's nothing to be gained from live feeding but there is a lot to be lost.

I disagree. See above comments. Live prey = fresh meat = healthier food in my book. And I take care of my snakes well enough so that when I put a live rodent in front of them, they eat it.

Frozen/prekilled feeding does have its merits, but if you do things right, feeding live is not the hazardous risky endeavor a lot of ignorant whiners claim it is.

[StudentoReptile]

sorry, cant give you any pro's to feeding live..........

I can!;)

Pros to live prey:
- Stronger feeding response to finicky eaters
- fresh meat (as opposed to frozen/thawed that may be exposed to bacteria)
- more natural scent/odor to the snake (frozen/thawed has a different scent)
- easier for the keeper (opposed to having to count out and thaw out how many feeders you need)
- less wasteful (any prey not eaten can be thrown into the tub and eaten another day!)

[Snakefood]

First off - I take exception to the ignorant whiner comment, TOTALLY unneccesary just because we choose to feed pre-killed.

Secondly, using the 'in the wild" card is a completely mute point,
A) our animals ARE NOT WILD

B) wild animals of any species rarely (read: almost never) live to the age that thier domesticated counterparts do, so obviously treating them differently than wild animals does make a noticable difference.

Now, I am not judging you for feeding live, and really dont want to beat the stinky dead horse of this particular subject, however calling those of us with "the feeding killed is safer mentalitly" names IS something I will take you to task about.

[SnakeyJay]

Studentofreptile... Firstly try not to sound so condescending, as your wording would have been taken that way by a newb who knows no better...

I see your points and your right about some things.. However most people don't have that mellow view on their snakes getting hurt. "It will heal up fine with the proper set up" is not acceptable for a lot of keepers. These animals are not in the wild, therefor they shouldn't have to be injured like a wild snake when there's no need.

Yes, meat that is frozen does deteriorate over long periods of time, but the OP has only one royal python, so it's highly unlikely that she would be buying bulk and have the prey in the freezer for that long.

At the end of the day, if you've payed money for an animal why would you want to see it hurt or scarred needlessly...

[StudentoReptile]

First off - I take exception to the ignorant whiner comment, TOTALLY unneccesary just because we choose to feed pre-killed.

Secondly, using the 'in the wild" card is a completely mute point,
A) our animals ARE NOT WILD

B) wild animals of any species rarely (read: almost never) live to the age that thier domesticated counterparts do, so obviously treating them differently than wild animals does make a noticable difference.

Now, I am not judging you for feeding live, and really dont want to beat the stinky dead horse of this particular subject,

Stop whining....j/k....or maybe not...just chill out, ok? ;)

My comment was not directed at you personally, just a general comment to the collective demographic of hobbyists that this mentality is instilled into; "their snake HAS to eat frozen/thawed, and feeding live is TOTALLY irresponsible!" etc etc....as Gregg may put it, it's just regurgitated inaccurate information passed down on and on by a lot of people who little experience keeping snakes correctly.

Careful with that word "domesticated" when talking about reptiles! While yes, these are captive snakes living in plastic and glass boxes being fed white lab mice instead of normal prey, and they don't have to deal with predators or disease...they still behave, think and act like their wild counterparts...and their feeding behavior is included in that. That is why I made that example.

however calling those of us with "the feeding killed is safer mentalitly" names IS something I will take you to task about.

"Ignorant" really isn't an insult, especially the term is applicable. It simply means the person(s) in question are not that knowledgeable on said subject. It is a very curable condition. It's not like I called anyone stupid or moronic.

"Whiner" I admit, is a bit more derogatory...but based on my observations over the past couple decades (and your last post)....well, if the shoe fits!

[Snakefood]

so long as "the shoe fitting is being discussed...... arrogant comes to mind

[StudentoReptile]

Studentofreptile... Firstly try not to sound so condescending, as your wording would have been taken that way by a newb who knows no better...

Sorry, sometimes I simply do not see the need to sugar-coat things. I don't think what I said was overly condescending or derogatory (compared to some other members here), and quite simply, it's how newbs learn. If they are more concerned about having feel-good feelings than acquiring good advice, then they probably aren't going to learn much anyway.

I see your points and your right about some things.. However most people don't have that mellow view on their snakes getting hurt. "It will heal up fine with the proper set up" is not acceptable for a lot of keepers. These animals are not in the wild, therefor they shouldn't have to be injured like a wild snake when there's no need.

Yes, meat that is frozen does deteriorate over long periods of time, but the OP has only one royal python, so it's highly unlikely that she would be buying bulk and have the prey in the freezer for that long.

At the end of the day, if you've payed money for an animal why would you want to see it hurt or scarred needlessly...

Perhaps I'm reading too much into that last bit, but don't think that I and others who think similarly don't care for our animals, and "needlessly" put them in harm's way. I merely pointed out that the risk is much more minimal when you do it right and you are caring for your animals correctly.

If people are that concerned about the occasional nip received by a persnickity prey, are they concerned the snake might poke its eye out by rubbing by a branch or rock in the enclosure? I mean, where do you draw the line? You can't put the snake in a safety bubble, folks.

That's why I feel very strongly about this issue. Feeding frozen/thawed is pushed for folks who want it "easy." They want something they can just toss in the the tank and not worry about it biting. Well, a lot of folks leave the thawed out rat in there all night and the snake never eats it. That's just gross IMHO...just lying there harboring more and more bacteria and making the enclosure more unsanitary. I'm not saying that everyone who chooses to feed F/T does that, but the "noob" demographic is instilled this mentality by petstores, which, let's face it, are not known for accurate husbandry info, right? Snake is probably not being kept that ideally already, and the F/T is "safer" for a unhealthy snake.

[StudentoReptile]

so long as "the shoe fitting is being discussed...... arrogant comes to mind

I'll wear it...because I have the experience that earned it. Someone tell me anything I just posted was wrong.

[Snakefood]

It's not about whether you are wrong or not, neither side of this particular subject is wrong. We, who feed pre-killed or frozen are not harming our snakes either. And suggesting a new snake owner not feed live actually has its merrits, since that person does not have your experience and thier snake COULD end up with quite severe wounds because of it.

Not worth it in my books, if it is in yours.... well, your call.

[StudentoReptile]

Well, my general view would be that they need to get their husbandry correct before they worry about what method of feeding they choose. If they do, then the snake stands a better chance of eating whatever they stick in front of it; no waiting, no "zombie dancing" or wasted thawed out prey because it "wasn't" hungry. :rolleyes:

[SnakeyJay]

Since when is frozen thawed the easy way? I choose it for the safety of my pet, cost effective and the fact that my gf won't have live days in our place... Putting live in and closing the door sounds easier than trying to coax a snakes interest, and letting it strike.
I have no problems feeding live, it's actually interesting to see.
There's a time and a place for it, however a newbs first snake with none of your vast experience is not it ;)

[StudentoReptile]

Since when is frozen thawed the easy way? I choose it for the safety of my pet, cost effective and the fact that my gf won't have live days in our place... Putting live in and closing the door sounds easier than trying to coax a snakes interest, and letting it strike.

You are right; "easy" and "cost effective" are all subjective. For some it is more cost effective to raise and breed their own live feeders than pay through the nose to have bulk frozen shipped.

I have no problems feeding live, it's actually interesting to see.

And you know what, I'm not diametrically opposed to frozen either. I have a bag of rats in my freezer, but they are mainly "back-up" in case my rodent supplier runs short. Its about the same price per rodent to get them from the breeder up the street as it is for frozen, and I don't have to worry about storing them, or paying $$$ to ship.

There's a time and a place for it, however a newbs first snake with none of your vast experience is not it

It's really funny you word it like that. The first snake I got was a ball python, and I started out feeding him live. Never had a problem. Same went for the all the ratsnakes and kingsnakes and boas I kept back in the mid-90s. This was before frozen feeders were readily available to the average keeper as they are now. For years, nearly everyone fed live, and I don't think the "prey biting back" was a big issue. As I think about it, I would wager people started beating that drum was when one started seeing more snakes in petstores, especially the big chains like Petco and Petsmart, the latter which adamantly doesn't sell live feeders and pushes their "mice on ice."

I'm not saying that rodent-caused injuries on snakes never happened; obviously, they did on occasion. We've seen the pictures. But again, you have to take into account the entire situation, why those incidents happened = negligence on the part of the keeper. There was a surge of "newbs" to the hobby; these were (and still are) "pet" owners. This is the crowd that likes the hamsters in the runaround balls, and the parakeets with their little toys, and think a snake fits in that same world. There is the inherent difference between "pet owners" and hobbyists. I know a lot of people who own herps that I do not consider hobbyists. They just keep a few herps as "pets." So with that mentality, there was a larger demographic of folks that did not have the know-how of keeping reptiles; they just wanted a cool animal that they could throw in a glass tank that they can handle whenever they wanted.

...and this still happens today.
--------

I say, what is easier for the keeper is not always healthier for the animal. Think about that.

Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with the "better safe than sorry" route, but I ask again, where do you draw the line? Do you stop walking your dog because you fear it will get run over by a car?

LOL, Brian Barcyck of BHB Enterprises and SnakebytesTV said in an interview once, he has this one really cool morph BP he hatched out. One of kind, worth a lot (I'm not really into BPs so I forget the name). Anyway, he came in one day and somehow the snake had tipped over its water bowl over on top itself. Still wet, the bowl formed a seal around the paper towel (or newspaper?) and the snake suffocated. I mean, freak accident, right? SO is every snake keeper going to start hot-gluing their water bowls to the bottom of the cage? LOL....and how many snakes does Brian own? He produces thousands each year alone.

[SnakeyJay]

I consider myself both a pet owner and a hobbiest... But I do see your reasoning for where do we draw the line... Well I guess I draw the line at what a snake can do to itself by accident and what another animal can do to it while still alive.

[StudentoReptile]

I consider myself both a pet owner and a hobbiest... But I do see your reasoning for where do we draw the line... Well I guess I draw the line at what a snake can do to itself by accident and what another animal can do to it while still alive.

So what do you with snakes that try to eat themselves? or bite themselves while feeding?

[MoreliAddict]

So your saying there's not a risk of the snake getting injured then?! Unless its a problem feeder there's nothing to be gained from live feeding but there is a lot to be lost.
In a proper set up, the chances of "something happening" are very very slim.

Hopefully Mykee, who actually HAS lots of experience with live feeding will come by and clear this up...

[SnakeyJay]

In a proper set up, the chances of "something happening" are very very slim.

Hopefully Mykee, who actually HAS lots of experience with live feeding will come by and clear this up...

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done... I'm saying it shouldn't be suggested as the best idea for a newb with their first snake... Of course it's possible to do, I just wouldn't do it myself unless needed.

[SnakeyJay]

So what do you with snakes that try to eat themselves? or bite themselves while feeding?

This is what a snake can do by itself.. Not another animal. Like I said each to their own and live feeding has its place.. You and many others do it fine. But this is a young newb with her first snake.. she is obviously going to be upset if the snake gets hurt at all.

[StudentoReptile]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done... I'm saying it shouldn't be suggested as the best idea for a newb with their first snake... Of course it's possible to do, I just wouldn't do it myself unless needed.

I understand your personal situation, dually noted...

But I have to go back to this....Feeding live isn't that difficult. Setting the snake up properly isn't rocket science either (talking about starter species: BPs, corns, ratsnakes, kings, etc.).

So...if suggesting that the newb shouldn't not feed live because it's just too "hard," then maybe they really aren't ready to deal with having a pet reptile anyway. Because it sounds like (in this scenario anyway) the F/T method is a cop-out for less-than-ideal husbandry. I re-state what I said in my first post in this thread: healthy snakes kept in a proper environment should have no problems dealing with live prey. Doesn't matter if they're in a tub, a glass tank, or in the wild.

[SnakeyJay]

I understand your personal situation, dually noted...

But I have to go back to this....Feeding live isn't that difficult. Setting the snake up properly isn't rocket science either (talking about starter species: BPs, corns, ratsnakes, kings, etc.).

So...if suggesting that the newb shouldn't not feed live because it's just too "hard," then maybe they really aren't ready to deal with having a pet reptile anyway. Because it sounds like (in this scenario anyway) the F/T method is a cop-out for less-than-ideal husbandry. I re-state what I said in my first post in this thread: healthy snakes kept in a proper environment should have no problems dealing with live prey. Doesn't matter if they're in a tub, a glass tank, or in the wild.

It sounds like your saying that because I'm suggesting the frozen thawed I'm copping out on husbandry?... I hope your not as my 4 snakes get the best I can afford and more..

I believe in keeping a perfect environment for my snakes, but still choose frozen thawed anyway... I did not choose it because my husbandry is crap.

[StudentoReptile]

SNakey-Jay, as I said in my last post, I noted your personal situation. Don't take everything I say as a personal attack against you ("It's not all about you, ya know;))

What I was referring to, was that by YOU saying we not suggest live feeding to the newb, we are inadvertently encouraging a cop-out. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

But this is a young newb with her first snake.. she is obviously going to be upset if the snake gets hurt at all.

If she is doing everything right, her concerns are unwarranted. That is my entire point. Case-in-point below.

In a proper set up, the chances of "something happening" are very very slim.

We feed all of ours live always have for years we supervise the feedings and our snakes are pefectly fine no scars scrapes or anything.

Believe me, I have had this discussion COUNTLESS times in several forums, and will undoubtedly have it again many more times in the future. This is not something for "experienced" or "advanced" keepers to "master." It's all about proper husbandry. I only cite statements from other experienced keepers to show the contrast.

Some of these people have been working with snakes for years, longer than I have been alive. They have put their hands on more snakes than I have even seen. I know some people like yourself have legitimate reasons for doing F/T, but most of the folks crying about rodents attacking their snakes are people who have not been keeping snakes very long (and/or as properly as they should) and are just regurgitating info they've heard from other inexperienced keepers. And like I said before, the relatively few "incidents" (compared to the countless successful, injury-free live feedings all over the world in captive collections) are results of keeper error. If you're doing things right, your snake probably stands a higher risk of you accidentally slamming the cage door on its head than it getting seriously injured by its food.

[SnakeyJay]

Fair enough... A good debate always gets good conversation when it's kept civil :D

[rmfsnakes32]

I have to agree with student here if you properly supervise feedings and be ready to remove the prey ( never had to do this) if needed all should be fine! They maybe captive bred but they still have wild animal survival instincts!

[StudentoReptile]

This is kind of another example...maybe, just maybe, it will bring the point home.

I have a buddy who was getting into tropical fish a couple years back. He used to come into the LPS I worked at to get advice from me, but would routinely get his fish from Petsmart. Why? PETsmART has a better return policy than we did; full-refund (our store only gave half store credit). However, we took much better care of our fish and boasted a greater variety and selection.

So his excuse was always "I can get all my money back if my fish die in 2 weeks."

My response was, "I take care of my fish, and they don't die. So I don't worry about refunds!"

Just for the record, against my advice, he set his tank up and was impatient, always overstocking it and too soon. Fish barely survived, and many died. My home tank did GREAT; never had a death due to my husbandry (had one jump out because the lid was open).
----------

Point of the story? I was more focused getting everything RIGHT before I even thought about putting fish in. My friend was more focused on the short-game, and recouping his losses in case something went wrong.

Wayne has even said it many times regarding monitor husbandry: if you get the habitat right, your animal will do fine. And that includes temps, humidity, substrate, etc.

[SnakeyJay]

Of course the environment is just as important as what and how you feed.. More so actually... I didn't realise I'd given the impression that this isn't paramount?.
I just believe in both for my own animals, short term care (immediate dangers that may be reasonably avoidable) and long term care (husbandry and further research)

[shaunyboy]

[sigh....]
People rave about rats and mice biting and injuring their snake, but in nearly every case, it is error on the keeper's part. The rodent was left unattended. Wrong thing to do. Snake wasn't hungry?; well, why wasn't it hungry? Temps and habitat probably wasn't right. Either way, you shouldn't leave the prey in there unsupervised.

In my experience, a healthy snake will strike and grab the prey within a few minutes of being offered food. If that doesn't happen, its probably not going to eat at all. Either its in shed mode, or you're doing something wrong.

"Well, what if he strikes and grabs the rat wrong and it starts chewing on his neck?" So? Snakes have been grabbing their prey sideways, on the butt, by the spine, etc, for millions of years. Again, if they're healthy, and the habitat is set-up right with proper temps, they'd heal up fine. You can treat them with some antiseptic ointment to spead things along, but they'll be fine. Obviously, if the injury is serious, treat accordingly, but in my experience, when I have had a snake suffer a bite from a rodent during a ill-aimed feeding strike-n-coil, it was never anything serious. Again, if you have a healthy snake and you're doing things right, you should have little to worry about.



I disagree. See above comments. Live prey = fresh meat = healthier food in my book. And I take care of my snakes well enough so that when I put a live rodent in front of them, they eat it.

Frozen/prekilled feeding does have its merits, but if you do things right, feeding live is not the hazardous risky endeavor a lot of ignorant whiners claim it is.

as far as i can find out there is nothing to say,frozen prey is any LESS nutritional than live mate

also why risk a snake being bitten by prey,regardless of whether the bite will heal ok or not,why risk a snake being bitten in the first place ?

also who would want a snake with scar tissue from old prey bites

imo NO matter how supervised a snake is,a keeper will NEVER be fast enough to stop prey biting the snake,should it decide to do so,its all over in under a second

for the record i have NO moral issues with people feeding live,i just don't see the point in putting a snake at risk

re whiners
the only time i'm a whiner,is when i'm not feeling well,as all men are;):laugh:

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

I have to agree with student here if you properly supervise feedings and be ready to remove the prey ( never had to do this) if needed all should be fine! They maybe captive bred but they still have wild animal survival instincts!

imo theres no way anyone,would be fast enough to stop a rat biting the snake,should the snake grab the rat by the as*,ribs,etc

you would need to get your hand in and grab the rat in under a second,not even Bruce Lee was that quick mate;)

cheers shaun

[Snakefood]

LOL Shaun, dont get me started on men with colds and flu's!! LOL!!

[shaunyboy]

LOL Shaun, dont get me started on men with colds and flu's!! LOL!!

when us men get the cold.....

we are dying...

when we have the flu we're on deaths door

cheers shaun

P.S.and we need good women,to fill us hot bottles,change the tv channel,plump our pillows,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,;)

[Snakefood]

when us men get the cold.....

we are dying...

when we have the flu we're on deaths door

cheers shaun

P.S.and we need good women,to fill us hot bottles,change the tv channel,plump our pillows,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,;)

Yes shaun, we "good women" do know that!!! and as much as we bitch about it, it's nice to be needed, but could you need us silently??? ;)

[Aaron_S]

when us men get the cold.....

we are dying...

when we have the flu we're on deaths door

cheers shaun

P.S.and we need good women,to fill us hot bottles,change the tv channel,plump our pillows,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,;)


We need good women so they can call our moms to do all that!

[Gungirl]

Lol... oh boy.

[Aaron_S]

Lol... oh boy.

Funniest cold medicine commercial EVER!

[Snakefood]

I WISH the moms came and took care of you guys!! in my experience, they just laugh and hang up the phone!!

[Aaron_S]

I just take care of myself :)

[Gungirl]

I have never once complained about caring for my man when he is sick. I rather enjoy it... being needed is awesome as long as it doesn't last more than a week tops.

[Aaron_S]

I have never once complained about caring for my man when he is sick. I rather enjoy it... being needed is awesome as long as it doesn't last more than a week tops.

Yeah I just got no one. I should train my daughter to.

[StudentoReptile]

imo theres no way anyone,would be fast enough to stop a rat biting the snake,should the snake grab the rat by the as*,ribs,etc

you would need to get your hand in and grab the rat in under a second,not even Bruce Lee was that quick mate;)

cheers shaun

But I assert...if the snake is healthy and hungry, there is no need to.

Sorry if I gave the impression that anyone can "intervene" quick enough to stop that. I apologize. I'll just explain what I do:

I open the enclosure and put the rat in. I'm mainly observing just to make sure it eats, because as I mentioned before, in my experience, if the snake doesn't catch it within 5 minutes or so, it probably isn't going to eat at all, and I'll remove the rodent.

I watch until the snake strikes and constricts. At that point, I know the snake has it under control and requires no further supervision from me. I walk away.

In 20 yrs of feeding live, I can count on one hand with fingers remaining how many times the prey bit the snake and actually drew blood. In those cases, the injury was minor and had practically healed on its own by the time of the next feeding. By the next shed, one couldn't even tell a bite had taken place.

[StudentoReptile]

as far as i can find out there is nothing to say,frozen prey is any LESS nutritional than live mate


Neither of I...just going by general knowledge of food preservation. It mainly depends on exactly how long the frozen rat has been sitting in your freezer. I wasn't really talking about the quality of frozen feeders while they are still frozen.

What I was referring to (go back and read the post) was during the process of thawing out the rodent. This isn't like thawing out a pre-cooked burger patty. You're basically taking a frozen dead animal, and laying it on the table to thaw. Some people stick it in warm water, others stick under a low wattage lamp. As I said before, there have been no studies this, but someone has to ask the question...what are you exposing that dead rat to during the thawing process? I mean...I dunno, does it start to decompose on the microscopic level somewhere? Are there some forms of bacteria that start proliferating on the rodent before you actually feed it to the snake?

That was what I was getting at.

[exwizard]

Reptile Student I agree with these points you've made. It has been my experience that live feeding is the way to go for me as long as it's supervised. I have never had an incident and my snakes prefer live.I'm not here to change anyone's mind. I'm just relaying what works for me.

[Wildside]

Just wanted to point out that it's October and he's a Ball Python.

[StudentoReptile]

Exwizard...Yeah, I do understand that for some people, frozen is a better option:
- it's more economical for them personally
- a significant other or housemate won't allow live feedings
- the aforementioned "better safe than sorry" mentality

That's fine, and I do acknowledge that; been there myself a few times.
--------------
My main point here is that aside from the above faction, there is a much larger demographic that is diametrically opposed to live feeding, usually for the wrong reasons. I was talking to someone on another forum who was having trouble with a new snake that was refusing F/T, and in her own words, she said feeding live was not an option, because she just couldn't handle it. I told her politely that there will be times when she will have snakes that refuse F/T and she will be forced to feed live. This is just part of keeping snakes; if she couldn't deal with that, then she probably should not be keeping snakes and should stick to other reptiles. I wasn't being harsh or belligerent, just laying it straight for her. For the record, the person did acknowledge this, and said between her and her boyfriend, they would feed the snake live if they needed to.

And that's not the first person I've encountered like that. There's this old woman in my area who will adamantly only keep snakes that eat F/T. If they refuse to eat f/t, she'll sell them or trade them off. Wasn't a matter of economics or safety...she just didn't like feeding live mice to snakes.

When I used to work at the pet shop, I don't care what anyone says; it is so difficult to explain to a new snake keeper how to properly thaw out frozen mice and feed them to your snake (Wildside can probably testify!). Unless they're herpers to begin with, it's like teaching someone Chinese. It is so much easier to sell them a live mouse, and tell them to go home, and drop in the cage, and watch to make to sure it eats it.

[Wildside]

More economical is the only reason I switched

[mykee]

Not sure if this is going to be a popular view, but I feed all of my babies live. My adults all eat f/t only due to the fact that I spent years culling out live feeders (removing, not killing). I can speak from a bit of experience with feeding live as I used to feed adults live and feed all my hatchlings their first three or four meals live.
My experience may be different from many of yours, but with regards to me feeding live rats, I am more concerned with raising up rats in my colonies that aren't chewers. They get culled (killed, not removed) I find that a calmer rat is less likley to be aggressive when in a snake bin. I've probably fed 10,000 live rats over 15 years, and not once, not one single time have I had an issue with biting or even scratching.
Regarding live mice, aside from my hatred of them, they can be a little nippier, but even then, a hungry baby ball python is no challenge for a mouse.
My experiences have been favourable, this is not everyones case though.

[shaunyboy]

But I assert...if the snake is healthy and hungry, there is no need to.

Sorry if I gave the impression that anyone can "intervene" quick enough to stop that. I apologize. I'll just explain what I do:

I open the enclosure and put the rat in. I'm mainly observing just to make sure it eats, because as I mentioned before, in my experience, if the snake doesn't catch it within 5 minutes or so, it probably isn't going to eat at all, and I'll remove the rodent.

I watch until the snake strikes and constricts. At that point, I know the snake has it under control and requires no further supervision from me. I walk away.

In 20 yrs of feeding live, I can count on one hand with fingers remaining how many times the prey bit the snake and actually drew blood. In those cases, the injury was minor and had practically healed on its own by the time of the next feeding. By the next shed, one couldn't even tell a bite had taken place.

i was'nt having go mate,just a polite disagreement :laugh:

i hear what your saying.....

i have novice keepers/newbies in mind when i post about live feeding...

i should have explained myself better as well mate

cheers shaun:)

[StudentoReptile]

I know...we all love debates :D

[shaunyboy]

Not sure if this is going to be a popular view, but I feed all of my babies live. My adults all eat f/t only due to the fact that I spent years culling out live feeders (removing, not killing). I can speak from a bit of experience with feeding live as I used to feed adults live and feed all my hatchlings their first three or four meals live.
My experience may be different from many of yours, but with regards to me feeding live rats, I am more concerned with raising up rats in my colonies that aren't chewers. They get culled (killed, not removed) I find that a calmer rat is less likley to be aggressive when in a snake bin. I've probably fed 10,000 live rats over 15 years, and not once, not one single time have I had an issue with biting or even scratching.
Regarding live mice, aside from my hatred of them, they can be a little nippier, but even then, a hungry baby ball python is no challenge for a mouse.
My experiences have been favourable, this is not everyones case though.

when i write anything against the cons of live feeding.....

i usually have an adult rat in mind and the damage they can inflict

imo feeding hatchlings live fuzzys,pups,imo pose no threat what so ever to a hatchling

i have NO moral issues,etc,on feeding live mate (a snakes gotta eat ;) )

i feed frozen thawed as its a lot easier than raising a rat colony

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

I know...we all love debates :D

NO we don't......:laugh:

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

NO we don't......:laugh:

cheers shaun

Speak for yourself!

I will freely admit it. I love to argue.

More specifically, I just like analyzing and picking apart issues that many seem to not (whether by choice or ignorance). It's not necessarily that I like to stir drama or instigate confrontation. I like asking questions that others are not asking themselves and disseminating more accurate information that others seem to not be privy to (for whatever reason).

[Wildside]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/very_interesting.gif

[shaunyboy]

Speak for yourself!

I will freely admit it. I love to argue.

More specifically, I just like analyzing and picking apart issues that many seem to not (whether by choice or ignorance). It's not necessarily that I like to stir drama or instigate confrontation. I like asking questions that others are not asking themselves and disseminating more accurate information that others seem to not be privy to (for whatever reason).

i was being a smart as* mate

yes we do...no we do'nt...yes we do...etc

it was Scottish sarcasim at it's finest :laugh::laugh::laugh:

cheers shaun

[Snakefood]

Not sure if this is going to be a popular view, but I feed all of my babies live. My adults all eat f/t only due to the fact that I spent years culling out live feeders (removing, not killing). I can speak from a bit of experience with feeding live as I used to feed adults live and feed all my hatchlings their first three or four meals live.
My experience may be different from many of yours, but with regards to me feeding live rats, I am more concerned with raising up rats in my colonies that aren't chewers. They get culled (killed, not removed) I find that a calmer rat is less likley to be aggressive when in a snake bin. I've probably fed 10,000 live rats over 15 years, and not once, not one single time have I had an issue with biting or even scratching.
Regarding live mice, aside from my hatred of them, they can be a little nippier, but even then, a hungry baby ball python is no challenge for a mouse.
My experiences have been favourable, this is not everyones case though.

K, my question is this.......... adult ball pythons should eat rats for many reasons. SO why, as a breeder would you start the babies on mice (live thawed, who cares!!) when they are big enough to start on rat pinks??? I have had to switch 2 ball pythons onto rats from mice now, (and will have to with a third soon) and I just dont get why breeders start them on mice in the first place????

Come on Mykee, give up the goods, WHY feed baby balls mice at all??

[mykee]

I find that babies are more receptive to live mice than live rats. So the first 2 or 3 meals are live mice which they readily accept. After which, I switch them to rats and they are off to the races for the rest of their lives!

[Snakefood]

ahh, the breeder I have gotten my BP's from still has them on fresh killed mice by the time they come home to me, and I have a hell of a time getting them to accept thier first rat as they are so used to mice!!

So you already have them switched to rats before you let them go??

[StudentoReptile]

I find that babies are more receptive to live mice than live rats. So the first 2 or 3 meals are live mice which they readily accept. After which, I switch them to rats and they are off to the races for the rest of their lives!

Same here.

I have had the best luck starting off baby BPs with adult mice, not hoppers, not fuzzies...adult mice. People like to complain "But they have such SKINNY necks! They can't POSSIBLY swallow an adult mouse!"

Yes...they can. And they do it every time, too. They just ignore hoppers and fuzzies half the time.

[exwizard]

I am not a breeder nor do I play one on TV. ;) I only live with one. That being said, I can only tell you what I've observed from him. I believe he starts with mice because for their size, there's a whole lot more action from them, further enticing the snake. Now, I recently bought a baby Burm from him and at the time, he had a couple of meals in him so when I got him, he had not been switched yet. A few days later, I tried to feed him a hopper because from what I understood, that's what he'd been on. Well... he didn't want anything to do with it. As a result, I now have a couple of fugitives. Out of frustration, I fed him a rat pinkie/fuzzy and he took it. I agree. Rats are preferable and if the baby is big enough for a ray pinkie, he should start out with rays. Its much easier when they are babies than when they ate sub-adult like Mick the mouse eater Irian Jaya.

[exwizard]

Other breeders could have different reasons however.

[Snakefood]

Same here.

I have had the best luck starting off baby BPs with adult mice, not hoppers, not fuzzies...adult mice. People like to complain "But they have such SKINNY necks! They can't POSSIBLY swallow an adult mouse!"

Yes...they can. And they do it every time, too. They just ignore hoppers and fuzzies half the time.


Yes, the babies come home to me eating fresh killed adult mice, and then I switch them first to fresh killed large rat fuzzies, or small hoppers (same size as adult mice) then to F/T rat fuzzies.

Just while the snake and I are having the battle of wills I always think to myself, why weren't they just started on rats in the first place........now I know!!

[StudentoReptile]

Yes, the babies come home to me eating fresh killed adult mice, and then I switch them first to fresh killed large rat fuzzies, or small hoppers (same size as adult mice) then to F/T rat fuzzies.

Just while the snake and I are having the battle of wills I always think to myself, why weren't they just started on rats in the first place........now I know!!

Well, mind you, this was mostly while I worked at a petstore. Live rat pups were very scarce, and management usually didn't like us using them up when we did have them, rather preferring we sell them to customers. Not my choice. ;)

If I was in the practice of raising and keeping large numbers of ball pythons, I would do everything in my power to get them on rats, I assure you!

[exwizard]

I am not a breeder nor do I play one on TV. ;) I only live with one. That being said, I can only tell you what I've observed from him. I believe he starts with mice because for their size, there's a whole lot more action from them, further enticing the snake. Now, I recently bought a baby Burm from him and at the time, he had a couple of meals in him so when I got him, he had not been switched yet. A few days later, I tried to feed him a hopper because from what I understood, that's what he'd been on. Well... he didn't want anything to do with it. As a result, I now have a couple of fugitives. Out of frustration, I fed him a rat pinkie/fuzzy and he took it. I agree. Rats are preferable and if the baby is big enough for a ray (rat) pinkie, he should start out with rays (rats). Its much easier when they are babies than when they ate (are) sub-adult like Mick the mouse eater Irian Jaya.

Typo corrections were added in parentheses.

[Snakefood]

Well, mind you, this was mostly while I worked at a petstore. Live rat pups were very scarce, and management usually didn't like us using them up when we did have them, rather preferring we sell them to customers. Not my choice. ;)

If I was in the practice of raising and keeping large numbers of ball pythons, I would do everything in my power to get them on rats, I assure you!

oh when I breed mine, I will do everything to put them on rats too!! I assure you!!