Hognose Regurgitated What do I Do?!

[AjaMichelle]

Hi

I came home to a regurged fuzzy.

What does this mean?

What do I do?

[Kingsnakechris]

How warm is your set up? How big is your snake?

[SSSSnakes]

How warm is your set up? How big is your snake?

As kingsnakechris is trying to get at, the snake is either to cold and needs more heat or the food was to large for the snake to digest. These are the two most common causes.

[AjaMichelle]

Hey! Sorry that took a minute, I'm dealing with some axolotl drama too. Some days!!!

I just checked the basking spot surface temperature and it's 100*F, so a little high and a cool spot of 84*F. I turned the light off.

He's about 12 inches ToL.

Also he's suddenly very defensive. But I'm thinking it's because he's entering shed?

[Gregg M]

It is usually nothing to worry about and can be fixed quite easily. First of all, I do not see any real issue with your temps.

I think you may have offered a prey item that was a little too large. I would offer a smaller meal next time. Small meals more frequently works well for my hogs.

[jaleely]

^^ I agree with Gregg. Unless it's been a day or so, which would be heat issue, it was probably just a meal that was too big. : ) he's fine. Try again in a day or so with something smaller!

[AjaMichelle]

Thanks everyone! :) What should I feed next? A pinkie?

He pooped!!! :)

[Kingsnakechris]

Yeah, I would go with a pinkie, see how he does with that and if need be offer more than 1 next feeding.

[Jlassiter]

If a snake regurges allow 10 days before feeding it again.....
It needs to regenerate it's digestive acids....

If fed too soon it will regurge again compounding the initial problem.....

[SSSSnakes]

If a snake regurges allow 10 days before feeding it again.....
It needs to regenerate it's digestive acids....

If fed too soon it will regurge again compounding the initial problem.....

agree 100% Feeding to soon can cause more problems.

[h3h]

Never had a hog, but I'm sure this is general care:

Jiassiter is correct. I've always just waited a week, especially if it happen the day after the "regular" feeding day. You can do 10, it won't hurt anything. Try a smaller item, and check the temps. Also make sure you have a hide on the cool and hot side, and make them identical if you can, or about the same size, you don't want your hog to choose safety over warmth. I don't think temperature contributed to this, but you want to make sure this doesn't happen again. If you get 2-3 regurgitation in a row you might start to have a problem. Try no handling unless to clean or change water until you get a meal or two in that hog. Keep the traffic low around it's enclosure to keep stress low. Block him off with a sheet if it's a high traffic area. Let us know how it goes next feeding.

- h3

[Gregg M]

There is no need to wait that long before feeding after a regurgitation. You can feed the very next day. I have had snakes redurge and re eat the regurge 2 minutes later.

A snakes digestive system does need to regenerate. That statement is 100% false and based on nothing that can be backed up. It is just another example of made up, crap, internet information that is unfortunately passed down from keeper to keeper. I am not saying that Jlassiter and others are wrong. It is that the information they have gotten is wrong.

So, now I am going to ask these questions.

If a snake regurges allow 10 days before feeding it again.....
It needs to regenerate it's digestive acids....

If fed too soon it will regurge again compounding the initial problem.....

Do you have any documentation to back this up? Reptiles do not have a digestive system like humans or other mammals. They do not have acids sitting in their stomachs waiting for food to drop in. As we know, snakes lack an epiglottis and they do not have a hiatus. So, keeping acids in the stomach would be impossible. This means that the acids are produced in glands that only activate when food enters the stomach. They do not run out of acids nor do they need time to replenish. I can post a few bits of lterature to back this up.

Also, if you feed a snake every 5 days or so, why would you need to wait 10 days to feed? Would they not be using even more acid to fully digest they prey they ate 5 days prior? It make no logical sense to wait 10 days.

agree 100% Feeding to soon can cause more problems.

Can you explain what problems it can actually cause?

Never had a hog, but I'm sure this is general care:

And this is exactly where the main problem is. General care is a thing of the past (or at least should be) when it comes to reptiles. Since most hognose breeders have gotten away from the general colubrid care guides, we have learned alot more about hognose snakes. When kept properly (not like a corn snake), they have very fast metabolisms and eat far more frequntly than most other colubrids do.

If my hogs can fully digest prey 3 times within a ten day period, why would I need to wait ten days to feed after a regurge? Does that really add up?

Also make sure you have a hide on the cool and hot side, and make them identical if you can, or about the same size, you don't want your hog to choose safety over warmth.

Hognose snakes do not require a hide. They burrow their substrate for security. I have offered hides and they were never used.

I don't think temperature contributed to this, but you want to make sure this doesn't happen again. If you get 2-3 regurgitation in a row you might start to have a problem. Try no handling unless to clean or change water until you get a meal or two in that hog. Keep the traffic low around it's enclosure to keep stress low. Block him off with a sheet if it's a high traffic area. Let us know how it goes next feeding.

- h3

I do not agree with using a sheet to block him off from the world around him, but I do agree with what you said in this paragraph for the most part.

I saw the photos she posted of her hog taking down the mouse. It was a bit too big. A common mistake we all make once in a while. Feeding a day or two after a regurgitation is perfectly fine and will cause no problems down the road.

[Jlassiter]

No documenation at all Greg, just personal experience with other colubrids.
I've had snakes regurge because temps were incorrect. When I tried to feed smaller prey after fixing the temps they regurged again, but when I would wait a week or 10 days they would hold it down. I was told by many that it was because they had to rebuild their stomach acids.....

If you haven't witnessed this then I congratulate you because many of us have......

[Falconeer999]

I'm brand new to snakes but with the mountains of stuff I've read over the past few months, almost all of it gave the 10 day rule followed by a few stragglers that called hogwash. Ran across this the other day and then just saw this thread.

It's an old (1994) Discover magazine article where there was a pretty indepth look taken at the snake digestive system to the point where they had a python swallow a PH probe that reported back its results. This part here kind of goes to the "10 day to rebuild stomach acid" thing:
Secor had some of his pythons swallow a rat with a pH probe attached to it to measure acidity. (If this doesn't convince you that snakes can be gentle and cooperative, nothing will.) He found that the stomach turned acidic just a few hours after the rat was swallowed. But unlike acid in the human stomach, the acid in the snake's stomach remained for the six days it took to digest the rat.
That seems to me to say that (for pythons at least), stomach acid isn't stored and instead is produced after a meal is taken in.

There is lots of neat information in the article dealing with snake digestion.

(BTW: I'm not saying one way or the other - Like I said, I'm brand new to the snake world and just absorbing as much as I can.)

Edit: Here's the article, dummy me forgot the link! Dining With the Snakes | Living World | DISCOVER Magazine (http://discovermagazine.com/1994/apr/diningwiththesna362)

[SSSSnakes]

No documenation at all Greg, just personal experience with other colubrids.
I've had snakes regurge because temps were incorrect. When I tried to feed smaller prey after fixing the temps they regurged again, but when I would wait a week or 10 days they would hold it down. I was told by many that it was because they had to rebuild their stomach acids.....

If you haven't witnessed this then I congratulate you because many of us have......

I have had the same kind of experiences over the past 30 years of keeping snakes. So I have no scientific documentation to back it up, only person experiences. After a snake has regurgitated it's food if I fed it to soon it would regurgitate it's food again. If left for a week or more it would keep it down. So if it is from a lack of stomach acid or something else, it still is a good idea to wait before feeding again.

[Gregg M]

In well over 25 years of keeping and breeding various species, I have never seen this problem. Back in the early to mid 90's I was breeding corns, kings, garters and a few other assorted colubrids. I have had my share of regurges and have always followed up a day or two later with a smaller meal. I have yet to see a snake regurge 2 times consecutively. When I was keeping and breeding gaboons, rhino vipers, puff adders, and Atheris, the rare times I had a regurge I would feed a day or two later and had no issues. Why have I not had an issue? It could be because I keep my snakes hotter than most people. Everything I own or have ever owned gets hot spot up in the mid to high 90's. From years of field herping, I have learned that almost all North American snakes will bask at very high temps in the wild. I have found corms, kings, milks, pines, garters, copperheads, and rattlers basking at near 100°F.

You need to remember that we are also talking about hognose snakes here so the same "rules" do not apply. They have a much higher metabolism than most all other North American colubrids. Their digestive systems are very efficient and evolved to handle frequent feedings. There is no reason a hognose snake should ever wait 10 days for a meal.

[Jlassiter]

Cool........

[jaleely]

I have not kept reptiles for long, but i keep over 8 different species now and can safely say that the 10 day rule is not applicable for this species of snake, though it is still a colubrid, that classicication is very broad (it includes about two-thirds of all snake species on earth).

To quote a reference "The Colubridae are not a natural group, as many are more closely related to other groups, such as elapids, than to each other.[3] This family has classically been a garbage bin taxon for snakes that do not fit elsewhere."

Keeping hognose is just not going to be the same as keeping other snakes.

So, it's good advice, normally, to wait a while to feed again...generally because the snake may refuse food after a regurge...but for this species, it's not necessary to wait more than a day or so.

: )

[Jlassiter]

Thanks for your input........

I would never know if a hognose is different in captivity than other colubridae as I don't have the desire to own any.....

But I commend those like Gregg and others that are working with them.....

Btw....if all options are provided all colubrids can be kept the same.....

And....if a healthy snake can swallow it and husbandry is correct it will not regurge.......period.

[jaleely]

Sorry, that's just false. A snake can swallow a meal that's too large for it, then regurgitate it back up, because it *is* too large. There could also be a folded rodent leg, or an abstrucction (when there isn't enough sapce, as in a large meal) that causes it to regurgitate. The same snake and meal can even be taken again at that time.

This is a factual thing that can and has been documented. Not really a point in arguing.

I kind of don't see the point in saying all cloubrids can be kept the same. You mean if you provide like, all kinds of conditions such as heat gradients and hides, and substrate, and moss, and just, everything? Even that isn't true. What about humidity, and all that? That's just weird to say *lol*

Over one third of snake species are labled under the same classification. All of those snakes should be kept the same according to you. If that were true, they would all live in the same part of the world in the same spot.

I think you just don't like thinking your advice is wrong. It's not wrong, in general, but it' wrong for that species. But, also, you are wrong about regurgitation *lol* sorry. Not an opinion, just a fact. please feel free to find documentation to support your theory. I'll read it.

[Jlassiter]

Okay...I'm wrong....
That doesn't bother me.....

Thanks for your time....lol

[Gregg M]

Okay...I'm wrong....
That doesn't bother me.....

Thanks for your time....lol

If you can believe it or not, I can even be wrong sometimes. LOL.

Impressive King collection by the way John. You know your stuff there, that is for sure.

[kingsnake1]

John's point is that if you provide a habitat with a proper temp gradient, a proper humidity gradient, sufficient hiding spots (substrate or hides), virtually any snake will gravitate to the environment he needs at that particular time and will thrive. Most keepers provide little of that in their racks of terrariums.

[Jlassiter]

Thanks Greg (kingsnake1), but Jaleely has it all figured out already....
She needs documentation to read instead of learning about the snakes right in front of her.

It's alright....those born during the Internet age learn that way I guess.....

I wonder how we all got along without it?

[jaleely]

riight..cuz documentation would be inappropriate to learn from in what way exactly? lol it's not really an opinion based kind of thing, so asking you to back up your thoughts is pretty appropriate.

I kept on, because i just didn't like how you said it was good advice this person was given, then immediately said that any snake that was healthy would not regurgitate. That's a good general rule, and common sense, however there are sometimes extenuating circumstances.
In one post you say you don't know about colorubids, but then go on to give your generalized opinion anyway. That just gave me the impression you really didn't know what you were saying, but you just didn't like admitting that -so you were going to restate your opinion whether you had facts or not.

Is that what happened?

I just think lumping everything together is not really good sense. Lumping every regurgitation into the snake must be sick, lumping every classification into the same husbandry methods...seems uneducated.
It was quite a startling statement you made, actually, that even after a well respected and successful breeder of a particular species tells you exactly how to care for it, you continue to comment and insist that all similar snakes can be kept the same, even after it being pointed out to you that that type of snake only shares a classification-family, not even the same sub-family, Genus, or Species.
But, clearly i'm showing my ignorance by wanting you to use documentation, from books, or the magic internet, to back up why you think the way you do.
Obviously.

Really lame of me to be "born during the internet age" and actually require concise, intelligent statements of people rather than just rhetoric. It's not a philosophical situation. lol wutevs.
That's just the weirdest retort i've ever seen. lol

[Jlassiter]

Okay.....I'm done.....lol

[Gregg M]

I can say at this point, if you want information on hognose snakes, seek the advice of experienced hognose keepers. Would anyone here ask a gecko keeper for advice on varanids?

f you keep your hognose snake the way you would keep a king snake or corn, you are not going to be providing your hognose with what it needs. Sure, it will live, but it will most likely not thrive and you will most likely not be successful breeding them.

[Jlassiter]

I guess you don't know how I keep my kingsnakes.....

But if I did keep them like the care sheets say to I agree with you 1000%!
But I don't....I provide enough options a garter, green rat, corn ,king, beauty, milk and hognose could thrive.......send me some and I will let you know how it goes....lol....j/k.

Gregg, like I said before I like what you are doing with this species, congrats.
It's just others need to know there is more than one way to do thing successfully.
Your way proves successful for sure.

[Jlassiter]

Okay, now I'm done....
I'm like a moth to a flame, huh?.....lol

[Gregg M]

But if I did keep them like the care sheets say to I agree with you 1000%!


That is what I am talking about for the most part John. Good to see we are on the same page dude.

I looked at you care guide and agree, you can keep a wide variety of snakes in those conditions. However, I would keep the hog a bit hotter. Thats just me though.

[Jlassiter]

I understand Gregg.......Maybe one day I will get me a couple hoggies.......If I can get over their keeled loose skin and stumpy little bodies.....J/K....lol

[Gregg M]

I understand Gregg.......Maybe one day I will get me a couple hoggies.......If I can get over their keeled loose skin and stumpy little bodies.....J/K....lol

LOL. They can grow on you man...

[jaleely]

well sorry to jump in there j..chalk it up to me being a crappy, sick, girly girl today lol
i get what you're saying now about the conditions : )

[Jlassiter]

No biggie jaleely......I apologize as well.

You're a bright girl.....keep it up!

I can't wait to see what you produce with those 22 snakes you have.....If you plan on breeding them.

[jaleely]

lol oooh i do! All the ones i plan to, are too young right now, but in about two years.. i'm going to be a grandmammy.
Dumerils boas, hognose, 4 different kinds of sand boa, and garter : ) The rest are just loners or no desire to breed them.
Live bearers and eggs, so we'll see how I do and go from there! lol

And thanks :)

[Jlassiter]

Good luck.....

[AjaMichelle]

Hi everyone thanks for your interest and responses. :)

So just so I'm clear, is my husbandry okay?
---100*F basking spot SURFACE temperature
---84*F surface temp of aspen at cool end
---15 gallon tank with screen lid
---humid hide under the light consisting of Tupperware container with coconut fiber
---3 inches of aspen
---soaking bowl on cool side on top of aspen

Also, I haven't seen him since the regurge. He's in my reptile room which is a low traffic area. I haven't found hides for him yet. I haven't handled him since Friday (the day I fed).

I want to try feeding him a F/T pinky tonight. What do you think? :)

[ashleynicole]

Just my 2 cents. A snakes stomach acid is very caustic and ive read in several books and articles, that when a snake regurgitates this acid does cause a degree of damage coming up which is the reason for waiting about a week before feeding again. The reasoning would be that if the snake immediately feeds again or feeds too soon after regurgitating then they have a higher risk for repeated regurgitation due to the irritation. By waiting your are giving time for the damage to heal.

Now many times a snake may eat again with no issues, or may eat their regurgitated meal. However a regurgitated meal that has been in the stomach for a few hours will be less damaging than one 24 hours later due to the amount of acid building up. It takes about 6 hours for the stomach acid to become really acidic. So maybe a snake could eat... regurge before too much acid is produced... and immediately eat again with no apparent problem.

I had a corn regurgitate after about 24 hours... worst smell ever. He was a voracious eater and I mistakenly overfed him thinking he needed more. Well I offered food every 7 days and he didnt eat for a month. I Finally got him to take a pinky and worked my way up from there.

So that is my rationale on why it is generally recommended to wait to feed after a snake has regurgitated based on research from books and information obtained from books, breeders, and the good old discovery channel. And of course my one regurge experience in 10 years of snake keeping.


In reference to hognoses gregg... perhaps because their metabolisms are faster and their meals smaller, they heal faster or don't suffer as much damage... perhaps that's why youve had no problem? I would assume larger breeds that take several days to digest would have a lot more issues when compared to a small breed like the western hognose.

[ashleynicole]

Im sorry I did not realize how old this thread was. I just got so interested reading that I wanted to throw my bit in! Im trying to learn as much as I can about the different husbandry required of the western hognose and found this topic intetesting.... didnt realize its two months old.

[Gregg M]

Im sorry I did not realize how old this thread was. I just got so interested reading that I wanted to throw my bit in! Im trying to learn as much as I can about the different husbandry required of the western hognose and found this topic intetesting.... didnt realize its two months old.

Nothing wrong with diggin up old threads to add some useful information. Even if it does not agree with what I am posting. LOL...

[ashleynicole]

Nothing wrong with diggin up old threads to add some useful information. Even if it does not agree with what I am posting. LOL...
I wasn't disagreeing, I was just trying to sort out all the info that I know about regurge and relate it to the hognose. :)