Hoarding vs Responsable Keeping... when are we on the line?

[Dracorex5]

So I was browsing netflix today and found an episode of a show I find to be tragic as a car crash you can't look away from, Animal Hoarding. It's terrifying how quickly some of these people develop this terrible desire to have so many animals.

I had never seen an episode of reptiles until today.... A man was keeping 30 rattlesnakes, in his bedroom! Each one had maybe a ten gallon tank to itself if it was lucky, with no hides and no waterbowls. He was living with his mother, which is fine beyond the fact that he was putting her at risk with insignificant care of these snakes and using her money to continue to buy himself snakes. Some of the tanks didn't have lids,

As far as I can think, 30 doesnt seem like THAT many compared to collections of other people I've seen. It is a career for some, and a big hobby for others, and I have a huge respect for that. At what point, however, is it too much? Is a problem determaned by the number, or by the keeping? Is 100 snakes kept in good conditions and safe sitatutions better than five snakes kept in buckets, or is it worse?

I just want opinions, I'm sure everyone has a different opinion!

[Kavyrie]

I think if a person can properly house and care for a lot of snakes then there is no problem, but if someone cannot care for them properly and safely its an entirely different matter. Snakes are sensitive creatures that need to be treated with respect, whether it be a corn snake or a viper.

[Kingsnakechris]

Once you have too many for YOU to care for, then its a problem. That number varies from person to person and it has nothing to do with how much you like the animals. If you cannot provide sufficient space, food, and general care its a problem regardless of how many animals you have Whether it be 1 or 200.

[Gungirl]

Hoarding- Keeping more animals than you can properly care for. For some this might be 5 animals for others this could be 50. The number means nothing, It is simply a number. If you have more animals than you can properly take care of then you are a hoarder.

[jaleely]

i see what you're asking, but no one should ever keep any animal in any situation that is not ideal for the animal. If they have an animal in captivity at all, they are already being selfish...so imagine taking that animal and putting it in terrible or miserable conditions like a ten gallon tank, or no water, or whatever. That IS a crazy person.

Oh, and i am selfish, i know it. But i try to make a livable environment for my critters. I'm not going to get so many that i have to slack on care for one over another in any way. THAT is crazzzzy.

oh, and i was recently accused of being a possible hoarder...LOL in a joking way, but hey it does happen. I like to think i'm not one. And i'm not!
lol.......lol.....

[Charis]

Agreed. It's a matter of the care you can devote to your creatures and or yourself. If your animals aren't able to receive a certain amount of attention and care, without neglect to them or yourself, then you have too many. The only time I really think a number matters a bit, is with social animals, as they require more. It's much easier to properly care for 200 snakes (of most species) than it would be to care for say, 200 dogs. There might be a few people out there who can actually care for that many dogs money wise and for their emotional well being but no more than a handful. But there are many people out there who can take good care of that many or more snakes.

[rmfsnakes32]

I agree with all the above it becomes to much when they are neglected! Between the boyfriend and we have a total of nearly 50 snakes all are cleaned all the time and fed appropriate meals on a regular feeding basis! Yes they are housed in racks but are paid attention to but that horder case is sick and dangerous and plain old neglect! Hots are NOT something you can throw in a tank and play with. God forbid if one of those got loose in the house a DEADLY mistake!

[Jlassiter]

It REALLY has to do with your financial situation......

I make a pretty good living and can financially care for around 200 animals, but I keep it around 150 until Summer when 300 or so hatch out....lol

It is not hoarding if you know what your doing and can afford to do so.....

Now someone making about $30K a year could not afford to keep 100+ snakes.....

[DeesBalls]

Like what's been said.... I feel it's hording when you need to by mice/rats before you provide food for family.

Depends on how much you make :)

[StudentoReptile]

One thing to understand is that in some/many cases, "hoarding" (whether it be pets, junk, or whatever) is psychological. There's something going on in the person's mind that makes them believe: "I am the only person capable of taking care of these animals. They will not get the care they need if I give them to someone else or a shelter, etc." And when the next animal comes along, the need to "rescue" it (even if it really doesn't need rescuing, per say) is almost uncontrollable. They HAVE to get it. It's not out of greed. It's kind of a "Mother Teresa of the pet world / Messiah" complex; they feel they have to save all the animals. But they don't know control and when to say enough is enough.

Hoarding trash and junk is a little different, but its still psychological. To them, it is NOT trash or junk. Everything has a place, and nothing can be thrown away because it may be needed one day. It's like they're OCD pack rats x100. I have an in-law who is like this. You can barely see the floor of their house. My wife went over there once to try and help and clean up thing. lol....WRONG! She could barey throw anything away because the in-law kept pulling things out the trash! After two separate attempts, she gave up. Then the in-law still always complains on how she needs to clean up the house, and my wife and I just roll our eyes.
---------

Back to the pet thing though...certainly, there is no set number of animals that qualifies one to be a hoarder. Some people on this forum have 100s of snakes in their house, but each of those snakes are kept in clean, well-maintained tubs, fed properly etc, while the needs of the person and their family are still met. Obviously, when neglect of the animals becomes a regular issue, and shirking of higher priorities is happening, then there may be a hoarding problem.

[Wyldrose]

I have a lot of pets and I get the "horder" comments here and there. From people who have not seen my set up, who have not met my pets. All my pets are thriving, growing and healthy. I work 4 hours a day mon-friday so I have time to spend with the animals. A lot of my lizards are set up in bio active substrait so their care is very minimal, ie chage water.
I don't take on an animal that I don't think I can fit in or give the proper care.
I have turned down animals that have been offered to me and I have adopted out animals I had planned on keeping.

[StudentoReptile]

Hey Susan, welcome!

Yeah, most of the nay-sayers are the most ignorant and know the least about what they are talking about.

[Aaron_S]

It REALLY has to do with your financial situation......

I make a pretty good living and can financially care for around 200 animals, but I keep it around 150 until Summer when 300 or so hatch out....lol

It is not hoarding if you know what your doing and can afford to do so.....

Now someone making about $30K a year could not afford to keep 100+ snakes.....

I don't think you can say that about someone's income. We just talked about each individual person and their ability to keep 1 or 100 snakes. I don't think their personal income actually matters. Who's to say that 30k a year person isn't married to a rich person who supports everything else and they only need to support their collection? Who's to say they aren't a 20 something year old living at home rent free and only need to pay their own way. Lots of situations where 30k a year can support a good collection.

Honestly, you can easily afford to keep a solid large collection of snakes on the cheap. Build your own racks, breed your own rodents and buy the proper substrate and it doesn't cost too much. I would say though that only works in single species set-ups since you can do everything in bulk. With multiple species it's a little more difficult.

[Jlassiter]

I don't think you can say that about someone's income. We just talked about each individual person and their ability to keep 1 or 100 snakes. I don't think their personal income actually matters. Who's to say that 30k a year person isn't married to a rich person who supports everything else and they only need to support their collection? Who's to say they aren't a 20 something year old living at home rent free and only need to pay their own way. Lots of situations where 30k a year can support a good collection.

Honestly, you can easily afford to keep a solid large collection of snakes on the cheap. Build your own racks, breed your own rodents and buy the proper substrate and it doesn't cost too much. I would say though that only works in single species set-ups since you can do everything in bulk. With multiple species it's a little more difficult.

EVERYTHING you mentioned Aaron has to do with someones financial situation. My EXAMPLE of $30K was just that........ONE example.

I know when I wasn't making that much money I couldn't AFFORD to keep a large collection. Now I can because I can AFFORD it....regardless of those circumstance you mentioned, there's now enough money to keep 150+ snakes correctly.

And for this size of a collection is is MUCH cheaper to buy frozen rodents, but I do build my own racks and buy things in bulk....that's just a smarter way of doing things......lol

[Wildside]

I don't even understand why this thread is a debate. It's not like hoarders ever admit to being hoarders without someone telling them they are. Just like drug addicts don't usually admit to having a problem until they receive some sort of wake up call. There is a psychological barrier in these people that prohibits them from accepting their own reality. We could sit here and spout off our opinions about who is a hoarder and who isn't all day, but that's not gonna do a thing to help said hoarder or any of the animals in their care.

[Snakeman8]

I hate it when animals are mistreated and are owned by an irresponsible owner, I would never do that to a snake,or a any animal, for that matter. I hope the snakes are in good care.

[Charis]

I don't even understand why this thread is a debate. It's not like hoarders ever admit to being hoarders without someone telling them they are. Just like drug addicts don't usually admit to having a problem until they receive some sort of wake up call. There is a psychological barrier in these people that prohibits them from accepting their own reality. We could sit here and spout off our opinions about who is a hoarder and who isn't all day, but that's not gonna do a thing to help said hoarder or any of the animals in their care.
This is true, but there is a bit of wide held misconception in the general public, fostered by these shows and animal rights groups that anyone with a certain number of any animal is a hoarder. It's good to define what really constitutes hoarding. I can bet that just about anyone on this forum with more than five snakes, and even sometimes less, will probably at some point be called a hoarder by someone simply because they can't conceive of wanting to own any snake let alone a bunch of them, so there must be something unbalanced about you. It probably accomplishes nothing true, but maybe by having it clear in your head first, you can explain the difference to those people so that they can understand the difference. And maybe by talking about it, some might take a harder look at themselves and be able to resist sliding across that line. And if in the end, it helps no one at all, who does it hurt?

[StudentoReptile]

Good post, Charis.

People will look for ANY excuse to ostracize those of us who keep snakes:
- religion
- public safety
- hygiene / Salmonella, etc.
- ecological threat

You are correct. It behooves us to get it right on our end, so we know how to respond to the nay-sayers. "No, I'm NOT a hoarder!" just doesn't cut it.

[Wildside]

This is true, but there is a bit of wide held misconception in the general public, fostered by these shows and animal rights groups that anyone with a certain number of any animal is a hoarder. It's good to define what really constitutes hoarding. I can bet that just about anyone on this forum with more than five snakes, and even sometimes less, will probably at some point be called a hoarder by someone simply because they can't conceive of wanting to own any snake let alone a bunch of them, so there must be something unbalanced about you. It probably accomplishes nothing true, but maybe by having it clear in your head first, you can explain the difference to those people so that they can understand the difference. And maybe by talking about it, some might take a harder look at themselves and be able to resist sliding across that line. And if in the end, it helps no one at all, who does it hurt?


I don't take time to explain anything to people who can't mind their own business.

[Sorraia]

I don't believe there is any set number that makes one a "hoarder", but a combination of all of the above that's been said. Its a psychological condition where the person cannot recognize their limits, cannot so "No" to just one more, and cannot believe they may not actually be able to provide for the animal properly. When this happens in addition to financial limitations, the animals and the person suffers from improper care.

Like others here, I have been called a "hoarder" before because I have many animals. But unlike a true hoarder, I know what my limits are. Believe me, I'd love to rescue every needy animal out there! But I know I can't, and I am able to say "no" and turn away, as much as I hate doing it, that animal I cannot possibly take in for one reason or another. I not only know my limits on what number I can care for, but what conditions I can care for as well. An animal that has minor malnutrition (i.e. just needs to gain a few pounds so it isn't as ribby looking), I can care for, but I recognize I am not set up for or experienced or knowledgeable enough to take on a severe case of malnutrition/starvation. I know it is in the animal's best interest to go with someone who is more experienced or knowledgeable, and better able to devote the time and energy needed to make the animal better again. I have a budget and am able to afford the animals I have while still taking care of myself, human family, and home. Sure sometimes times get a little tough (like when everything decides to break at the same time hen I have no income because I'm on maternity leave...), but I have enough income, between my husband and I, and enough savings, to get through comfortably. These are the kinds of traits that differentiate a hoarder from a person who is not and just has a lot of animals.