Sliding glass doors for Varanids?

[Pirarucu]

What is everyone's experience with them? I know drop down doors such as Wayne's are being used more often, but I have one of those on my burm's cage, and frankly I am less than pleased with it. I like how with sliding doors, you can adjust how much of the cage is open.
If you had a group of monitors, perhaps two or three.. It seems like it would be a hassle keeping them all in. My burm at least doesn't come flying out expecting food..

The only drawbacks I can think of is that there would be a small air leak between the two panels, and dirt could get in the tracks.
If you were to put up a barrier, you could prevent the latter to some extent. Or just use a shop vac whenever dirt got in.

So, from those who have used them, yea or nay?

[BarelyBreathing]

I use sliding glass doors and drop down doors. In arboreal enclosures, sliding are more appropriate.

[Gatorhunter1231]

Depends on the species I would say. I will not do sliding doors with ackies again. They fill the track system with dirt and then it becomes a pain in the ***. If course I have always prefered walkin enclosures ;)

[infernalis]

I would also see the lizards fiddling with the door an issue too.

[Pirarucu]

To prevent the dirt in the tracks, my idea would be to place a barrier around the edges, on the inside of the glass. This would at least reduce the amount of dirt, and would prevent the monitors from fiddling as well.

[crocdoc]

I use sliding glass doors on all of my enclosures. With lace monitors, it's important to be able to control the size of the opening as juveniles and adults may rush at you for food and hatchlings my try to bolt out to escape. Also, anything with a hinge may result in tail tip loss at some stage because they have really long tails.

Although the glass tracking in my smaller enclosures is the standard plastic glass track, which occasionally collects substrate, the best way to avoid dirt in the tracks is to use a sort of tracking in which the base of the track is the 'male' part of the tracking system (ie the bit that sticks up) rather than the 'female' part. The glass tracking in my adult lace monitor enclosure has such a system. There is a metal frame on the lower part of the glass that has small wheels, which roll on a raised track on the window frame.

I don't have any photographs of the tracking (I'll have to take some at some stage), but it's visible in this video and you can hear the wheels running along the track in some of the clips. If you pause the video at around 0:36 you can see the track and the window frame.

PxeB8kYPP0A

(as per usual, the video isn't showing up when I preview this post and Wayne normally sorts it out, but in the meantime I'll insert a link below)

monitor routine - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxeB8kYPP0A&feature=share&list=UUP2bVYHJLk7KIelwHewTMHg)

[Pirarucu]

Thank you for the info, glad to see you posting again.

Were I designing a fairly large cage for a group of Ackies, which would you recommend? If the dirt problem with the standard ones isn't too bad, I'd prefer to go with those, as the ones with wheels irritate my ears a bit for some reason. Not a huge deal, but still.

[crocdoc]

Were I designing a fairly large cage for a group of Ackies, which would you recommend?

I would recommend the ones I used for the large enclosure in that video, without hesitation. The sound of the glass rolling along on wheels (loud in the video mainly because of the weight of those particular glass panels) is nothing compared to the sound/feel of glass in a plastic track trying to roll over sand. I've yet to hear anyone comment on the sound of the glass tracks I have on my large enclosure, so it may seem louder or more irritating in the video than it is in life.

[Pirarucu]

I would recommend the ones I used for the large enclosure in that video, without hesitation. The sound of the glass rolling along on wheels (loud in the video mainly because of the weight of those particular glass panels) is nothing compared to the sound/feel of glass in a plastic track trying to roll over sand. I've yet to hear anyone comment on the sound of the glass tracks I have on my large enclosure, so it may seem louder or more irritating in the video than it is in life.Okay, thank you!

[Pirarucu]

Do you know if there is a name for the glass track design? I can't find what it's called online.

[crocdoc]

Just look up sliding glass track systems. The manufacturer I bought mine from is called Cowdroy, but that's of no help to you as it's an Australian company. However, when I searched Google images for sliding glass track systems, the very first image that came up was this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G99FRPNKL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

This sort of glass tracking system is usually used by retailers for glass display cabinets (holding jewelry etc) and for wardrobes.

[Pirarucu]

Ok, thank you. For whatever reason that didn't pop up when I searched.

[filthy phil]

monitor routine - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxeB8kYPP0A&feature=share&list=UUP2bVYHJLk7KIelwHewTMHg)[/QUOTE]
How funny. Just like a kid

[varanus_mad]

Ive seen both sorts cause tail loss...

We use sliding viv doors over here a lot more than Hinged doors...

Both have there merits both have there down sides.

Tracks is the biggest down side for sliding doors... sand plus track = nails on a chalkboard...

The tail thing... you just have to be carefulll at all times with it.

[crocdoc]

Both have there merits both have there down sides.
What's the down side to sliding glass? What's the up side to hinged doors?

Tracks is the biggest down side for sliding doors... sand plus track = nails on a chalkboard...
That's why the discussion of the 'male' tracking system as described above. No sand on the track.

I should mention that the biggest up side to sliding vs hinged doors (or biggest down side to hinged doors, depending on how you look at it), especially with some species (like argus and lace monitors, for example) is that you can control how much of the door is open at feeding time. If I had a hinged opening on my adult lace monitor enclosure, I wouldn't be able to type this.

As for tail loss, the difference between sliding doors and hinged doors is that with sliding doors your hands (and attention) are where the opening is as you slide the door closed, so the likelihood of tail tip loss is minimal to the point of not-going-to-happen. I've never had an issue with adult or baby lace monitors and they've got really long tails. With hinged doors, on the other hand, your hands (and attention) are at the part of the door furthest from the hinge, whereas it's the scissoring action right near the hinge that will most likely cause tail loss.

In my opinion, the differences between sliding glass and hinged doors are quite large.

[varanus_mad]

So you grab the edge thats bridging the gap between the edge of the enclosure and the door and pull it that way?

if youve got a 6' sliding door your pushing if from the side furthest away from where your opening is so your 6' from where the monitors going to get trapped etc and i dont know how you close a door but a hold the handle nearest the edge to be closed i dont close it from the hinge.

Both systems have caused tail loss in varanids because humans are involved the odd hatchling has been crushed by both sytems to.

Hinged doors if youve got a small opening you dont have to take the door of to make adjustments as the gap is the full size of the opening,
There also cheaper to install/free in some cases,

i used to keep argus's and sand has ended up in those runner systems due to them piling all the sand up against the doors open the door sand falls in to the tracks the deeper runners on those doors made it more difficult to get it out to.

[infernalis]

I would like a sliding door, but when I was handed 2 glass doors already framed in aluminum with rubber gaskets, it was hard to say no.

[crocdoc]

So you grab the edge thats bridging the gap between the edge of the enclosure and the door and pull it that way?
No, not the edge. There's either a handle there (note the handle near the edge of the glass at the start of this video)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJZkHgMp0jo&list=UUP2bVYHJLk7KIelwHewTMHg&index=2&feature=plcp
(Wayne, please do your stuff. One day also please explain how I can get the youtube link to work. In the meantime, I'll put extra links).
Dog tame monitor - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJZkHgMp0jo&list=UUP2bVYHJLk7KIelwHewTMHg&index=2&feature=plcp)

...or I just use my hand to slide the glass over (start of this video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxeB8kYPP0A&list=UUP2bVYHJLk7KIelwHewTMHg&index=32&feature=plcp
monitor routine - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxeB8kYPP0A&list=UUP2bVYHJLk7KIelwHewTMHg&index=32&feature=plcp)

Either way, I'm always nearest the opening, where I can keep an eye on things.

if youve got a 6' sliding door your pushing if from the side furthest away from where your opening is
No, I'd never do that with 6' doors and I can't imagine why you would.

i dont know how you close a door but a hold the handle nearest the edge to be closed i dont close it from the hinge.
No one does and that was exactly my point. I don't know why you feel the need to resort to a straw man argument, for here's an exact quote of what I had said:

With hinged doors, on the other hand, your hands (and attention) are at the part of the door furthest from the hinge, whereas it's the scissoring action right near the hinge that will most likely cause tail loss.

Tail tips get caught near hinges, whereas your hands (and attention) are at the other end of the door. Any kid that's ever had their fingers caught in a door or car door knows that it's not the opening end that causes the problem - we're all too busy focusing on that - it's when someone else closes a door and one's fingers are poking through the gap near the hinges. That's how tail tips get lost, too. The other thing to mention when discussing this is that with a sliding door you have one edge to worry about - the leading edge of the glass. With a hinged door, the instant it is open you have four edges to worry about. The hinge end of the door, where things can get trapped up against the door jamb, the upper and lower edges of the door, where things can get scissored against the door frame and the leading edge of the door (where your attention is going to be, as the handle is usually at that end, so that's the least worrisome end).

Hinged doors if youve got a small opening you dont have to take the door of to make adjustments as the gap is the full size of the opening,
I'd rather have really large windows so I can see my monitors (and they can see out), rather than restrict the openings to tiny doors just to accomodate hinges rather than sliding doors. If I had hinged doors the size of these glass panels, opening the doors to throw food in or to do a bit of spot cleaning would create a huge opening through which my lace monitors could come flying out (especially when being fed).
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/78349789.jpg

If I had small doors, it would make it tricky to do maintenance. Not only would it restrict movement, but I'd be leaning the top half of my body through a small gap, so should the monitors act up I'd be in trouble trying to get out of their way in time. There's also the other issue with hinged vs sliding doors that hasn't been brought up yet: the amount of space required to swing the door open. If I had doors the size of the sliding glass panels in the enclosure shown above, I'd have to rearrange my living area so that there was always a 2m space in front of the enclosure, just so the doors could be swung open. The very table I am sitting at as I type this would have to be gone.

i used to keep argus's and sand has ended up in those runner systems due to them piling all the sand up against the doors open the door sand falls in to the tracks the deeper runners on those doors made it more difficult to get it out to.
A high litter dam is always recommended so that substrate doesn't push up against windows (the litter dam in the above enclosure is almost at hip level on me), but if you have a look at the track system we're talking about at the beginning of this thread, the glass doesn't run in the tracks, anyway, so it doesn't make a difference. I probably have to vacuum substrate out from between the tracks (remember that the glass doesn't run in the gulleys, but up on the struts) once every few weeks.

Both systems have caused tail loss in varanids because humans are involved the odd hatchling has been crushed by both sytems to.
I can't imagine how you'd crush a hatchling with a sliding door if you close it while standing near the opening. Coincidentally, though, the only hatchling I've ever come close to crushing was at the only normal hinged door in my home - my front door! I had some hatchlings escape once and as I was leaving one day I was closing the front door and felt a bit of resistance. Luckily I didn't push it hard, but chose to see what was stopping the door from shutting, for there was a hatchling up in the gap between the edge of the door and the door jamb, on the hinge side of the door. If I had closed the door firmly it would have been crushed and it was invisible from the handle end of the door.

[Gungirl]

That enclosure is stunning. I would love to have that in my living room...

[Lankyrob]

That enclosure is stunning. I would love to have that in my living room...

I thought the same thing :)

[crocdoc]

Thanks, but it IS my living room, unfortunately! Lol. There's not much left for me. I should post an updated photograph, as the basking light arrangement has changed and I have much larger, chunkier climbing logs in there now (fresh new ones, as of a few weeks ago).

[Pirarucu]

Thanks, but it IS my living room, unfortunately! Lol. There's not much left for me.Well since you're obviously displeased with it, I suppose I could take it off your hands... I suppose you had better send the monitors over as well... LOL

[crocdoc]

I suppose I could take it off your hands... I suppose you had better send the monitors over as well... LOL

No problems, I'll see if I can find a box large enough to send it in...

....nope. :)

[Pirarucu]

No problems, I'll see if I can find a box large enough to send it in...

....nope. :)LOL. Did you make that background yourself?

[crocdoc]

Yes, I did make that background myself. If you look really closely, you can see my blood, sweat and tears (mostly tears) embedded into the mock rock. The technique I used is not something I recommend for others to follow.

[Pirarucu]

Out of curiosity, what was it? And what would be a better technique in your opinion?

[crocdoc]

Okay, here we go. I'll start with the challenges.

Challenge 1: I wanted a vertical cliff face which the monitors could easily climb up, with horizontal basking platforms at the top and numerous resting shelves at different heights, so the monitors could choose from several options in a vertical thermal gradient (because the basking lights are at the top, the enclosure always ranges from hot at the top to cooler down below). The cliff face had to fit onto the flat back walls of the enclosure, without taking up any floor space (the cliffs start a metre or so off the ground) and square up in the two corners. Finding a natural rock formation to these exact dimensions would take forever, so I couldn't just go take a mould from a real rock.

Challenge 2: To save on time and expense, I wanted to make only one mould and pull two cliffs from it, so the cliff face had to look as good (and as believable) upside down as right side up.

I carved a model rock, out of dense polyurethane foam, with the number of basking shelves etc that I wanted, basing it on local sandstone landforms which I had photographed over the preceding weeks. For texture, I mixed sand and crushed rock with plaster and worked it into cracks and onto edges. When it had the rock look I was after (in everything but colour), I painted on several layers of latex, some with cloth embedded for structural strength, to make a mould. I then constructed a support mould (aka 'mother' mould) out of fibreglass, in multiple parts that could be disassembled and reassembled, held together with bolts on specially made flanges where the pieces meet. This is usually necessary when making a mould that has overhangs.

I removed the fibreglass mother mould, peeled the latex mould off the model and then broke the model up into tiny pieces (the reason for this will come later).

I reassembled the mother mould, laid the latex mould into it and painted in silicon mould release. I then poured crushed rock and sand into the broken edges of the cliffs before painting/splattering/spraying in a pigmented mixture of polyurethane elastomer, mixed with crushed slate powder, sand and crushed rock. When a reasonable thickness was obtained, I backed it with a couple of layers of elastomer soaked glass fibre matting. When that was cured, I put in some wood struts to support the largest of the shelves, threw in the broken bits of my original 'model' rock and then filled in the back with two part polyurethane foam. I fixed the whole thing to the back panels of the enclosure and screwed the wooden struts to the back wall panels. When the enclosure was constructed, the whole back panels, mock rock and all, were popped into place and screwed to the side walls, then the edges of the mock rock were sealed to the side walls with silicon.

Don't try this at home, trust me. I'm glad I did it and I love the enclosure (you have to see it in person to get a feel for scale - the monitor on the basking shelve on the upper right was around 1.4m - just under five feet - in length when that photograph was taken), but if I had to do it again I'd probably rethink my techniques. One of the reasons I did it the way I did is that I liked the realistic look of mock rock cast from moulds and wanted to learn some moulding and casting techniques, so I didn't really mind doing it the most labour intensive way as it was part of the process.

If I were to do it again, I would either do two 'one off' rocks carved out of polyurethane and then coated (less realistic, but quicker and easier) or I would take many individual moulds of natural rocks, cast them in either polyurethane or polyester and then assemble them in situ and glue them together with more polyurethane or polyester.

Overall, it's held up really well. It's had full monitor wear and tear for over 10 years, now, although every now and then (roughly every two to three years) I have to do small repair jobs to a couple of high traffic areas, especially cliff edges or the vertical wall above the cliff, where the monitors will often claw away or hang on with their full weight.

Like so (he was sleeping like this, but when I opened the enclosure to take a photograph he woke up):
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/118963085.jpg

A few more photographs of them using the space:
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/116918345.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/122531667.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/122531668.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/128130593.jpg

[Pirarucu]

The amount of dedication there amazes me, thank you for all the detail. I certainly will be attempting this one day, but only after I have a lot more experience under my belt.. I have never even built any sort of background before. Was this the first time you ever made a background?

[crocdoc]

I was about to say that it was the first I'd ever made but then remembered an enclosure I put together when I was a teen, using fibreglass. So it was my second. I researched this one a fair bit before attempting it.

[Pirarucu]

That would be my plan. How did you build the fiberglass one, and how did it turn out?

[crocdoc]

The fibreglass one was for a semi-aquatic animal, so it was an entirely different scenario. I didn't go for realistic rocks and wouldn't have known how at the time, but that's not a restriction of the fibreglass vs polyurethane elastomer.

If I recall correctly, I built a wooden shelf (which would end up being the basking area) and then used wire mesh for armature to shape the area that would slope away into a pool. I coated the lot in polyester (pigmented) soaked fibreglass matting and then did a pigmented layer with sand and rock mixed in for the 'rocky' surface.

[Pirarucu]

Ah, thank you. What was the species?

[crocdoc]

I deliberately didn't mention the species as it harks back to when I was a teen and did something I am now very much against: i.e. Buy a species of reptiles that I couldn't possibly house properly once it reached adult size. I ended up having to sell my collection when I moved to Australia, anyway.

[Pirarucu]

Ah, gotcha.

[justme]

substrate getting in the tracks is constant hassle

cleaning all corners of the glass as well

it can rattle if the lizard bumps it

othen than that i love them. i use a double hinged 68" window with the inertia springs removed. heavy duty and insulates like mad.

[crocdoc]

substrate getting in the tracks is constant hassle

cleaning all corners of the glass as well

it can rattle if the lizard bumps it.

If you use the sort of glass tracking system mentioned at the beginning of this thread, none of this is an issue.

Substrate can't get in the tracks as the glass rides on the tracks.
The same amount of glass would need to be cleaned if they were hinged doors, so I'm not sure why that would be an issue?
They definitely don't rattle.

[justme]

like you said on page 1, what you use is not what we use and have available here.

sealed roller sliders are not readily available or used by cage builders, custom or otherwise.

glass goes in track channel, track channel is wider than glass. glass does rattle if moved rapidly enough

[crocdoc]

what you use is not what we use and have available here.

You, personally, may not use them, but that doesn't mean they aren't available.

sealed roller sliders are not readily available or used by cage builders, custom or otherwise

I thought we were talking about building our own enclosures in this thread, rather than ordering them from elsewhere? If you build your own enclosures, there are no limits on what is readily available for order from cage builders.

Those glass frames are used in commercial establishments, such as shops, everywhere. Any place that displays things in glass cabinets usually uses them, which means someone, somewhere is making and selling them. All you have to do is look for them, purchase them and use them and your problems are solved. No dirt in tracks, no rattling etc etc.

[BeardedDee]

This is available in the UK and think it's similar to what crocdoc has, correct me if i'm wrong though.
It's not wide enough for my needs but thought surely you can find similar in the US?
Hatch Glass Sliding Door Kit - IronmongeryDirect.co.uk (http://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/Products/Sliding_Door_Hardware/Sliding_Cabinet_Door_Systems/86017/Hatch_Glass_Sliding_Door_Kit/358040)

[crocdoc]

If you're after something that is wide enough for your needs, you should be able to find a place that will cut the aluminium frames to custom specifications. That's what I ended up doing.

[justme]

You, personally, may not use them, but that doesn't mean they aren't available.



I thought we were talking about building our own enclosures in this thread, rather than ordering them from elsewhere? If you build your own enclosures, there are no limits on what is readily available for order from cage builders.

Those glass frames are used in commercial establishments, such as shops, everywhere. Any place that displays things in glass cabinets usually uses them, which means someone, somewhere is making and selling them. All you have to do is look for them, purchase them and use them and your problems are solved. No dirt in tracks, no rattling etc etc.

Again, those are not readily available. You are looking at custom order from an industrial supplier.

Too much hassle for what you get. I just use a big thermal jeld wen window, disconnect the wind springs, place on its side and you have an instant 6' door (or larger, depending on what you find locally). The ones i like have the spring loaded and covered channels so no muck gets in there.

No glass cutting, loose joints, heat transfer etc. And for under 200$ for the 6' size

those displays you are thinking of are one tail whip from being shattered. been there. i no longer trust a single layer of glass held by metal, regardless of how you mount it

[crocdoc]

Again, those are not readily available. You are looking at custom order from an industrial supplier.
How is custom order from an industrial supplier not readily available? You measure, you order, you pick it up. :)

those displays you are thinking of are one tail whip from being shattered.
I beg to differ. I've got laminated glass on mine and I've had adult male lace monitors throw themselves at it. A tail whip ain't gonna shatter nuttin'.

Pre-made windows of the sort you are describing are a great way to go, provided you can find one the size and shape you are after. I would agree with you there. However, I disagree that the glass tracking system I used for mine is a hassle to order, collects substrate or gets shattered easily, because I've put one together and have been maintaining it with large monitors for around ten years without an issue.

[AjaMichelle]

Hi!

I have a 6 foot long, 2 foot tall glass door on my savannah monitor enclosure. It's two panes, and the sliding style. The glass rides on the tracks and I haven't had an issue with rattling or with dirt in the tracks. :)

It's fantastic. And now that my monitor is over her fear of the door, she enjoys it too. :)
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/Savannah%20Monitor%20Enclosure/PA100056.jpg

[Lankyrob]

WOW that tongue is AMAZING!!!!! :)

[infernalis]

WOW that tongue is AMAZING!!!!! :)

More so when you really think about that it is used to smell is surround stereo.

[crocdoc]

Awesome tongue photo!

[Pirarucu]

Wow, great shot!

[AjaMichelle]

WOW that tongue is AMAZING!!!!! :)

More so when you really think about that it is used to smell is surround stereo.

Awesome tongue photo!

Wow, great shot!

Thanks! :)

[Palaciosivan]

I would go with the sliding glass doors. I have them for my Savannah and they work great alot safer because they open as much as you want them too, this is important with moniters that are aggresive eaters.. But then again i feed my moniter in a feeder tank so he doesn't have the instinct to rush the doors when i open them thinking that i have food for him.

[jarich]

Great picture! Ya, I use an old window as well. No air leaks, dont have to worry about dirt in the track and the thing is better insulated than the rest of the enclosure by far. Plus it already has a lock on it and cost me nothing.