Cruelty... [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

Kaetlinv

09-23-12, 09:59 AM

This is just outright cruelty... I'm not even disgusted by this persons actions, I'm just torn and upset... I'm saving the image and copying all the text, in case she decides to delete this. This is just outright cruel. :(

Not going to copy the names, but if you get to see them please don't call anyone out directly. If you do, do not mention me. I'm already trying to talk to the OP and at least get her to realize that she just killed in innocent animal....

If this isn't in the right place, please bump it. I'll admit I didn't search thoroughly for a proper place, I'm kinda choked up about this....What hurts as well is that I know her personally :(

Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=487427411274987&set=a.102618646422534.5597.100000231979271&type=1&comment_id=1417434&ref=notif&notif_t=photo_reply&theater)

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/156171_487427411274987_836080687_n.jpg

OP: "This is exactly why I am not enjoying the pool on this warm Georgia day!"

Comments below;

person1: " oh c'mon Chris, it's just a snake! In Virginia in the creek in our back yard we had cottonmouths. He was pretty :)"

OP: "I believe this IS a juvenile water moccasin, which are very much venomous!"

person1: "cotton mouths are just another name for water mocassin...but the stripes and coloring doesn't appear to strike me as a water mocassin...but you'll find them in dark waters so be careful!"

person2: "dinner"

person3: " I'd be worried too! Someone is chopping the head off of the wild life in your yard! ;) Actually, this creeps me out."

OP: "Yes Linds you are correct. It resembles the pics of a juvenile and I'm not taking any chances!"

person3: "Was he swimming?"

OP: " The headless thing is Dave trying to get it away from him. At the time he spotted it, it was a mere 2 feet from him and they were both in the pool.
The snake or Dave?!?!?!? Snake swam one way and Dave about broke his foot going the other!"

person3: " About breaking your foot beats losing your head any day! I'd say Dave won this one."

Myself: "Didnt need to kill the little thing...couldve called animal control. There was no need for this little guy to have died. :( even a poisonous snake deserves to be relocated rather than die...it was probably more scared of you all than you were of it, hence it swimming the opposite way..."

OP: "My husband had his own methods of "poison control" and it didn't cost him $"

Myself: "So you have absolutely no care whatsoever for the life that was just taken from that animal. It was a baby. Yes, it was potentially poisonous but you guys werent sure. If you didnt want to spend money, you couldve left it to run away. It wasnt out to get you, it was trying to escape. If it was out to bite you it wouldve done so in the pool. This is just cruelty, this snake didnt need to die...."

infernalis

09-23-12, 10:03 AM

the page is already taken down.

mykee

09-23-12, 10:08 AM

Kaetlinv

09-23-12, 10:08 AM

I just did about 5 minutes of research. Pretty sure what they killed isn't a cottonmouth... It looked like a juvenile northern water snake, based off this page here;

Cottonmouths and the Harmless look-a-like Snakes (http://www.virginiaherpetologicalsociety.com/venomous-look-a-likes/cottonmouth-look-a-likes/cottonmouth.asp)

http://www.virginiaherpetologicalsociety.com/venomous-look-a-likes/cottonmouth-look-a-likes/images/cottonmouthvs-nws%20copy.jpg

The pattern on the beheaded snake changes like this one does. :/

alessia55

09-23-12, 10:14 AM

Kaetlinv

09-23-12, 10:16 AM

It must be her privacy settings, then.

As for the killing of rodents and earwigs, this actually came up between me and my roommate last night; yes, it's all a matter of perspective, and some people consider backyard snakes to be pests. Some people love insects and won't harm a single invertebrate.

I guess what I'm upset about is that I know her, and I don't remember her being like this. She doesn't have small children to worry about getting bit (unless she popped one out and didn't blab it out all over facebook or to my mother, which is unlikely as she's a bit of a chattermouth), from some of her pictures she may have small animals to worry about, and her and her husband. Obviously I can't change what happened, It's just personally upsetting. I didn't realize I knew her until this morning - she recently got married and her last name changed, and her profile picture isn't recognizable to her.

Another point that upsets me is that, from my interpretation thus far, the snake had been trying to flee. Yes, people chase down spiders and bugs in their home to 'get rid' of them. But this snake was outside, not trapped indoors. Other than girlish fear, there was no reason to kill this snake. Especially since it wasn't trying to bite them... From what I've read about cottonmouths, they let you know when they're near you by opening up their mouths, but seldom 'chase' people down. Well this snake didn't do either? And it doesn't look like a baby cottonmouth, at least not to my amateur eye.

Snickers

09-23-12, 10:24 AM

alessia55

09-23-12, 10:25 AM

On the topic of cruelty, I saw someone on FB posting a picture of her forcing a snake to smoke a cigarette. This is a link to the FB picture.

Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=436713966363072&set=a.177285238972614.41927.100000734179123&type=3&theater)

That person's FB privacy settings do not allow us to see the image. But you could right-click on the image, click "copy image address", and then post that here.

DavethePython

09-23-12, 10:26 AM

While we have very few native species of snakes where I live in northern BC, 3 I believe is all we have this far north , an act line this would have resulted in a fine of up to $5000 ( maybe more depending on the species) and 6 months in jail . It is illegal to kill a native species here . Granted there is no confusion here as we do not have venomous snakes this far north but the few species we do have are highly protected . Even picking up a garter snake could be punishable by law .

Lankyrob

09-23-12, 10:28 AM

Its similar here (even tho we have only two native snakes) - the killing of any animal would result in a minimum of a hefty fine and a possible ban on keeping animals in the future if not a jail sentence.

Kaetlinv

09-23-12, 10:31 AM

I just did a quick search on georgia state laws on snakes....

http://www.forestry.uga.edu/outreach/pubs/pdf/wildlife/NHS%2006-05%20-%20Brown%20Water%20Snake.pdf

"Brown water snakes are considered common and have no federal protection status. However, in the state of Georgia, all non-venomous snakes are protected by law and may not be taken, injured, or killed. This is particularly important to remember because brown water snakes are often mistaken for venomous cottonmouths (Agkistrodon piscivorus), which are often found in similar habitat. Because of the public’s fear of venomous snakes and an inability to differentiate brown water snakes from cottonmouths, many brown water snakes are killed for no reason."

Lankyrob

09-23-12, 10:32 AM

In that case get the authorities involved, they can hardly deny it as they have given photographic evidence!!

Kaetlinv

09-23-12, 10:35 AM

I'm in washington - and I'm hesitant to get involved, mainly because I know her personally. Not for fear of me losing her friendship, but from her taking the anger out on my mom. the only way I would call the authorities is to do so anonymously, but I doubt that could be done now that i've posted on her picture.

I'll see if I can toss them an email of it, but I'm nervous about doing so. I'm from washington, not georgia.

mykee

09-23-12, 11:02 AM

"Killing the rodents is necessary in order to feed your snakes. Killing this one snake in the wild was...not necessary. "
It is not necessary that we own snakes though.
Is a snake "more important" than a rodent?
Yes? Because it's bigger? What about a cow or a pig?
I kill 6,000 rodents a year to keep my collection alive and well fed. It is my CHOICE to keep the animals I do, so it is completely unnecessary for these rodents to die if it weren't for my desire to keep and breed snakes.
No difference to me.
To keep this thread on the cutting edge, I love my dogs more than any living creature, but I cast no dispersions on those who eat dogs in Asia.

alessia55

09-23-12, 11:06 AM

It is not necessary that we own snakes though.
Is a snake "more important" than a rodent?
Yes? Because it's bigger? What about a cow or a pig?
I kill 6,000 rodents a year to keep my collection alive and well fed. It is my CHOICE to keep the animals I do, so it is completely unnecessary for these rodents to die if it weren't for my desire to keep and breed snakes.
No difference to me.
To keep this thread on the cutting egde, I love my dogs more than any living creature, but I cast no dispersions on those who eat dogs in Asia.

I agree with you. So much so that I've written papers about why it is immoral to kill an animal for us to eat it before the animal's natural death. I could go on forever. But I won't :p

What I meant is, that in that moment, killing the snake was probably overkill (no pun intended) considering the situation.

mykee

09-23-12, 11:16 AM

Alessia, no disrespect intended but how can any one of us know (or judge)what was going through the mind of the person who saw that snake and decided to kill it. I'll be honest, if I didn't keep and breed snakes, I would probably have done the same thing. The safety of me and my loved ones comes FAR before the life of a potentially venomous snake in my midst.
As for Kaetlins very informative Powerpoint presentation (AFTER the fact)complete with pictures and red arrows; I think the farthest thing from any persons mind when put in that situation is "maybe it's NOT venomous".

Kettennatter

09-23-12, 11:26 AM

Kaetlinv

09-23-12, 11:26 AM

You have every right to believe what you do, Mykee, and it's perfectly reasonable too.

To use your example, those who eat dogs (and cats, too?) in asia do so because of culture, or necessity I'd imagine. People are raised differently, and people also fear differently.

So far I'm the only reptile fan in the people I have met at my college. Several of the people I have befriended profess an extreme fear of them. That's fine, but I'm not scared of them and I will do what I can to help them realize that snakes aren't monsters. Yes some can be poisonous and need to be treated with respect and caution, however just because it's different doesn't mean it's scary.

Likewise with invertebrates, I'm terrified of spiders crawling on me, or most bugs for that matter. But I try to figure out what kind it is before I react. I leave long-bodied cellar spiders to their own devices, since they're not really a threat and from what I have read, are beneficial to the house and get rid of pests I don't want present. When spiders or other bugs are outside, they're not in 'my' domain and I leave them be.

Short version.... Everyone is different, in infinite ways. What we choose to believe is up to us...But I believe that this snake wasn't being malicious. From what i'm able to glean, this was it's first showing. It may have wandered into their pool by accident, and didn't want to be there in the first place. However we will never know if it had intended to make their land it's home or not, because now the innocent snake is dead. It just wasn't necessary in this case.

Like Alessia said, it was kind of overkill. From the way she phrased it, the snake had been trying to escape, not bite them. That means that they went out of their way to chase it down and decapitate it. Misunderstandings are deadly in some circumstances, in this case it was.

And now one of the OP's friends is telling me that the only good snake is a dead snake and that any snake they kill will die. Yay trolls. I commented one thing to them informing them it was illegal in georgia to kill brown water snakes, and offered to give them a circumstance where an animal they favor has been blatantly mistreated or killed without a care in the world. :)

Snickers

09-23-12, 11:29 AM

Kaetlinv

09-23-12, 11:32 AM

To respond to Kettennatter and Mykee, as I didn't get a chance to read those before posting;

True, they were concerned more about their safety, which is more than reasonable. But I repeat, the snake had been swimming the opposite direction.
"Snake swam one way and Dave about broke his foot going the other!"

As for Kettennatter's post, yes. It's the fact that she put it online and is laughing about it being dead. If this had carried on within private or face-to-face conversation, I wouldn't be upset. If I were to have found out about it on a later day through inane conversation, I would've asked why and been mildly concerned. I would have told her what she could've done different, and let it very plainly at that.

And snickers, that is just sad. I don't understand how someone could make their snake or any animal do that. Even just putting the cigarette in the animal's mouth is cruel.... If the presence was sustained in the animal's mouth, I wonder what harm couldve come to it. :(

TheBoogieDown

09-23-12, 11:40 AM

But this goes along with Rattlesnake Roundups. The poor snake was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think there are probably more humane ways to kill the snake, as it looks like it took more than one or two swipes with whatever they used to cut its head off. Whereas the roundups people go hunting for them just to kill them in front of an audience. Also, I've had to call animal control a few times to have a venomous snake removed and it didn't cost me a dime, maybe on my taxes, but not right then and there.

shaunyboy

09-23-12, 11:41 AM

I kill spiders and earwigs in my house all the time. Is there really a difference? I see nothing wrong with this at all, in any way. We feed rodents to our reptiles without even considering the amount of death that is necessary to maintain our collection.
Oh well, a snake was killed. I killed almost 250 rodents last week alone.

imo,if man fears it,man kills it.....

if i'm being honest i kill spiders in my house the second i see them,why.....

because they scare the crap out me (even though i know they're harmless)

my wife will catch them and put them outside.....

i'm just too scared to go near them with anything other than,the long handled brush i use to kill them

i'm NOT saying i'm correct in killing them,only explaining when something scares the crap out you,it's hard to be rational

i would rather face a crazy man with an axe,than a creepy crawly beasty

for the record...

i do NOT kill for pleasure...

i kill out of fear

cheers shaun

TheBoogieDown

09-23-12, 11:43 AM

imo,if man fears it,man kills it.....

if i'm being honest i kill spiders in my house the second i see them,why.....

because they scare the crap out me (even though i know they're harmless)

my wife will catch them and put them outside.....

i'm just too scared to go near them with anything other than,the long handled brush i use to kill them

i'm NOT saying i'm correct in killing them,only explaining when something scares the crap out you,it's hard to be rational

i would rather face a crazy man with an axe,than a creepy crawly beasty

for the record...

i do NOT kill for pleasure...

i kill out of fear

cheers shaun

I try not to kill spiders, as I know they are just going with the flow of life. But you are correct, I see one and it feels like my heart will stop right in my chest. I even get a little creeped seeing pictures of them on here. Irrational? Yes. But you said it perfectly with: "if man fears it, man kills it."

shaunyboy

09-23-12, 11:46 AM

I copied the picture.

someone should stubb that cigerette out in the girls eye

that imo is totally uneccessary cruelty

cheers shaun

Akuma223

09-23-12, 01:22 PM

I agree completely shaunyboy. If I saw someone do that I would flip the frick out. I have positively no tolerance for such actions.

Lankyrob

09-23-12, 02:22 PM

I largely agree with you. The difference is that I probably wouldn't boast online about it.

This sums things up well, if you feel the need to kill it in the spur of the moment then go ahead BUT posting about it and taking pictures makes it more like a ***** comparing competition and is pretty pathetic :no::no::no:

StudentoReptile

09-24-12, 07:41 AM

I have seen this same discussion played out on other forums.

It's not necessarily the killing of a harmless water snake that gets to me. It's that many people are simply unwilling to take the time to learn a little more about the world around them and research the natural fauna in their area.

For example: my wife and I aren't big fans of spiders. Specifically, she hates them. I am somewhat indifferent about them as long as they stay out of my house, garage and cars. Now, since we now have a toddler and a 4-mo-old, this is more of concern for us since we do occasionally see spiders in the house. And a few months ago, I did in fact find a black widow in my wife's car. SO yeah, we take spiders somewhat seriously around here.

As a result, we have spent HOURS researching spiders online, looking at various websites and images of spiders: what the males look like, what the females look like, how big they get, what the bites look like, what to do in case of a bite, preferred habitats of different species, etc etc. In essence, we have become amateur spider experts!

If people spent HALF of the time doing a little research about the snake species in their area as we have done about spiders, I bet a lot less harmless snakes would meet untimely deaths by shovel.

millertime89

09-24-12, 09:12 AM

I rarely kill spiders in my place, generally only when I wake up and find them crawling on my face and get startled and smack them (and leave a nice red mark). I've always been this way, snakes too. Even when I never kept them I researched the ones that live here and knew what was what and would always try and get them to safety. It helps that we have no hots around here. When I was little I would catch wolf spiders and put them in critter keepers for a few days before releasing them back outside where I found them. To fear is understandable, but you should also respect all of the animals that we encounter. As humanity grows and communities expand, we're going to see more and more wildlife in cities and its important that we learn to interact with them in appropriate ways.

Terranaut

09-24-12, 09:26 AM

We love snakes obviously buy when my brother inlaw called me on his cell from his cottage and asked me what he should do about the rattlesnake living under the porch all I could think of was my nephews getting bit. I told him if he saw it out from under the porch to do exactly what this person did. Kill it. Massasauga (sp?) rattle snakes are endangered and protected but so are my nephews. Damn it there are only 3 o them in the entire world :) I personaly would have done the same. BUT this is not a place where we see many venomous snakes so a call to animal control would end with "leave it alone and it will go away"
If you truly believe a human life is at risk, kill the snake. Not worth the risk no matter how much you love snakes.

millertime89

09-24-12, 11:54 AM

unfortunately the "leave it alone and it will go away" mentallity doesn't work with rattlesnakes and I'm sure some other species. They stay close to the den site where they hibernate in the winter. Killing it isn't the answer, but if someone's life is in immediate danger another option needs to be found.

StudentoReptile

09-24-12, 12:05 PM

In many of these discussions, I have found that most of the people advocating (or in the very least, are okay with) killing the snake are parents. Most of the time, those who diametrically believe there is ALWAYS some other way to deal with the issue, are NOT parents. Whether or not, they are "reptile folk" is not always relevant. Just a curious observation I realized not long ago.

I will definitely say that parenthood will change your perspective on some issues. When you have children, your priorities will change.

That said, while I certainly do not like it when I hear about someone killing a snake in their yard, or whatever, and of course, I always promote awareness and education of one's local fauna, from one parent to another, I cannot fault someone for doing what they think is best in the heat of the moment in regards to their children's safety. As much as I love reptiles and snakes, there is no card in my hand that can trump the "better safe than sorry" card that they often play.

TheBoogieDown

09-24-12, 12:22 PM

It is not necessary that we own snakes though.
Is a snake "more important" than a rodent?

But if we don't own the snake and the snake is in the wild, it'll kill the rodent just the same. I'm not saying us killing them is right, just that we all die, at least the rodents are being used to keep something else alive and fed and aren't just dying because they "deserve" to die. That snake didn't deserve to die, just like the rodents we feed our snakes don't deserve to die, the only difference I see in them is that the snake is dead and there is no use for it. They aren't going to eat it, or use its skin to make designer boots. Get my meaning? Or am I just rambling like an old drunkard? (I think I'm old drunkard haha)

charlesc84

09-24-12, 01:49 PM

I just don't see point in killing a wild animal just because you're afraid of it.
Also, killing a wild animal trying to get away is nowhere near the same thing as feeding one animal to your pet.

infernalis

09-24-12, 01:50 PM

I will definitely say that parenthood will change your perspective on some issues. When you have children, your priorities will change..

That's right, my priorities did change, to responsibly educating my children that herps are beneficial to the environment, and harming them is bad karma.

TheBoogieDown

09-24-12, 01:54 PM

That's right, my priorities did change, to responsibly educating my children that herps are beneficial to the environment, and harming them is bad karma.

I have no kids and I don't really plan on having any in the near future, but I will teach my children to not fear things that the media tries to use to incite fear (sharks, snakes and any of that stuff) but rather to respect that animal. And as I'm learning on here and around the interwebs how snakes are helpful to us.

Kettennatter

09-24-12, 02:20 PM

I have the opposite problem with my kids. I will have to find a way to teach them that snakes in the wild are not pets . Two weeks ago at a breeder my 2yo saw a retic for the first time. Her initial reaction was to try kissing it.

StudentoReptile

09-24-12, 03:08 PM

That's right, my priorities did change, to responsibly educating my children that herps are beneficial to the environment, and harming them is bad karma.

Indeed. As I intend to do the same with my own boys.
-----
But my main point was that, in general, most folks, once they become parents, EVERYTHING becomes about the children. And anyone who is a parent knows exactly what I'm talking about. Things you used to take for granted suddenly become a big deal: some brands of laundry detergent make them break out, "OMG, what did he just pick up and put in his mouth?!" "Hmm....they wer outside playing a while ago and its been quiet for about an hour. SHould I worry?" etc etc etc.

Now, put that mentality into someone who does not like snakes, does little or nothing about snakes (except that some types are "poisonous"), and has never taken the time to change that. Again, I'm not advocating ignorance here...but when said person sees a snake in the same yard that their children play in, what do YOU think that THEY think is the most logical course of action?
a.) bring children inside and leave snake alone
b.) not knowing whether snake is dangerous or not, kill it just to be safe so it no longer presents a threat
c.) try to I.D. snake via book, computer, or sharing pic via phone/Facebook

You have to understand that these people are not thinking about conserving wildlife. Their mentality is as follows:
There is a snake in close proximity to where my family and I live.
I know some snakes are venomous, and some are not.
To find out whether or not this snake is venomous would take time, in which the snake may escape.
To try and capture it would present some risk to me, as I do not know whether it is venomous or not.
If I leave it be, it may enter my property again another day, or possibly a neighbor's yard instead.
If a neighbor is bitten by a venomous snake in the near future after I let this snake go, I may feel some level of responsibility/guilt.
The logical choice is to put a stop to the potential threat to myself, family and neighbors now.

Once more, I'm not saying this is right; I am merely illustrating that some people do not follow the same thought process/logic as you or I do. So to say that them killing a snake in their yard is "illogical" or dumb is not accurate. They simply have different priorities and follow a different logic than we do. YES, they SHOULD educate themselves better on local wildlife, including native snake species. But many do not.

Kaetlinv

09-24-12, 03:31 PM

My goal with talking with her was getting her to recognize that she killed a snake that didn't really present a danger, and perhaps next time she will be able to recognize said type of snake and know that it isn't a cottonmouth. I had emailed the georgia department of wildlife(?) and actually just got a call that they would like the saved pictures / commentary I had and the link to the original facebook page. He's told me she's not going to face any troubles or anything due to the misunderstanding, but he is going to try and give her some information on how to prevent something like this happening again. I'll remain anonymous, etc etc.

She has small animals to worry about - she's only got two kids and they're both grown up and have been in college for a few years already. It was a misunderstanding based off of fear. Just hoping she won't jump to conclusions a second time if she sees another, because she likely will.

Terranaut

09-24-12, 06:12 PM

So where should people draw the line?
Ever smacked a mosquito to death or pulled a weed out of your lawn?
Or is it an issue just because you like snakes? I agree the snake didn't need to be killed but should all mankind stop using cars due to roadkills? I doubt that snake felt much pain at all and even though it didn't need or deserve to die you make choices everyday that affect the life or death of many other animals without a second thought so why is this one worthy of a crusade against the snake killer? Not having a go at anyone in particular or anything but unless you wear all synthetic cloths made in outerspace and eat only food that has died from natural causes be it plant or animal you kill stuff everyday wether directly or indirectly. Thinking you are " evironmentaly neutral" would be "ingnorance".
Chopping the head off a snake is not cruelty if it was roasted or beaten with a stick it might be.

aharmon

09-24-12, 08:15 PM

The photo of the girl forcing the snake a cig pisses me off more than the beheading of the other snake. Why would you do something like that to an animal?

TheBoogieDown

09-24-12, 08:55 PM

Chopping the head off a snake is not cruelty if it was roasted or beaten with a stick it might be.

To me, it looks more like it was hacked at and finally pinned as it was pulled off. that's just the way it looks with the skin stretched like it is. I could be wrong, though. I have SEEN a video of someone hacking at the head of a snake with a dull machete before the pinned it down with the machete while someone else used a gopher (those reacher things people use) to PULL the snakes head off... THAT is cruel.

Raan

09-24-12, 09:06 PM

My neighbor once told me that she likes to run snakes over with her lawn tractor, I replied with well I like to run over dogs with my car so watch out. Haven’t seen their dog on my side of the trees since the beginning of summer

SleepySleazoid

09-24-12, 09:46 PM

Anyone who kills an innocent harmless creature like that, be it a snake, spider, or otherwise, is a complete coward. End of story in my book.

Terranaut

09-25-12, 03:16 AM

Anyone who kills an innocent harmless creature like that, be it a snake, spider, or otherwise, is a complete coward. End of story in my book.

Do you eat meat? Ever? Did you find a wild cow and bring it down with your teeth? Ever seen how livestock is slaughtered? When the combine kills thousands of insects harvesting wheat or corn is the farmer a coward?
My point is although this seems sad and cruel it pales in comparison to what we make happen when we purchase food. If you eat food that is farmed your money has killed many snakes/rodents/insects /birds/fish and even people. Writing about McDonalds hacking the heads off cows is a much better crusade than this one snake.
Understand?

Lankyrob

09-25-12, 03:17 AM

MMMmmmm, cows - yummy yummy ;)

h3h

09-25-12, 06:31 AM

The picture with the cigarette really bothers me, and I'll stop there to prevent from going on a long winded rant...
- h3

StudentoReptile

09-25-12, 07:54 AM

Anyone who kills an innocent harmless creature like that, be it a snake, spider, or otherwise, is a complete coward. End of story in my book.

Guess that makes me a coward. I will freely admit that I have squashed more than a few spiders in recent months. Sorry, if its in my house, I'm not going to risk it crawling in the bed and biting one of my babies on the leg. Dear God, we were up half the night last night because he had a mosquito bite that was bothering him (this is a 17-mo old toddler BTW, in case anyone was wondering). I've seen what a bite from even a "harmless" wolf spider or jumping spider can do. Life-threatening? Of course not. But its going to make life very uncomfortable for a toddler who can barely speak or express himself beyond wailing. Sorry, folks, I'm not going to risk all that fuss just to preserve the life of a spider. Even if I scoop it up and let it go outside, how do I know its not going to lay eggs somewhere and the young are going to make their back into the house?

Its all about perspective, folks. ;)