Beginner Help

[Falconeer999]

I'm a new snake owner. I've had my hypo florida kingsnake for about 2 1/2 weeks now. I was hoping I could get some good advice (and sorry if I ramble on in getting to the point - want to make sure I give the most information I can to get the best advice!).

#1 Feeding:
The snake is about 15-16" long. I've been feeding him about every 3-4 days (after reading posts by jlassiter about watching for when he spends more time on the cool side of the cage). During feeding he's been eating 2 pinkie mice. The first couple feedings he ate the first one, then would coil, rattle his tail, and look up at me for another. I'd give that to him and then after eating that one he would stretch out and calm down. After the last feeding (Thursday), he ate the 2nd and did his wanting more routine looking for a 3rd - I didn't have one ready for him (frozen). When he eats the pinkies, he doesn't seem to have any trouble getting them in, but I can point right to the bulge in his stomach when he's done swallowing them - he does bulge up. This morning he was all stretched out on his cool side so tonight will be feeding night. Should I have 3 pinkies ready for him or should I move up to fuzzies?

#2 Temperature/Humidity
I've been trying to figure out how to get to the optimal temperature ranges and humidity for his enclosure. He's in a 40 gallon Zilla critter tank. The tank is in a room that usually stays pretty warm - ambient temperature is around 76-78 in that room right now (that room stays warmest during the summer and coolest during the winter - not the most efficient room in my apartment). I've had the following results with different configurations (in all cases, I have a DIY humidifier I've made with the aquarium air pump/water container method):

A) With just an UTH, the cool/hot temps during the day are 78/82 and 74/78 at night. Humidity stays around 50% day and night.
B) With a 75watt bulb, no UTH, 80/85 day and at night I use the UTH. Humidity is 35% during day.
C) With a 150watt bulb, no UTH, 85/97 day and at night just the UTH. Humidity is 15-20% during day.

I have 2 hides in the cool and 2 hides and a basking spot in the hot. I also have some fake vines in the middle. He mostly stays in the fake vines (either under, or climbing), and then he'll also curl up in the hides on the cool side at night. I've never seen him use the hides on the warm side. He has a small deep water bowl mostly on the warm side, and a large water bowl in the middle. I've seen him drink several time, I've seen him slither through the large water bowl once, I've not seen him soak.

This weekend I changed his substrate from paper towels to aspen and he's spending most of his time burrowing under it - he spent a good bit of time on the hot side (with the 150watt) this weekend burrowed with just his head poking out.

So, sorry for the long post, but I want to make sure I'm providing a good environment for him. Any help in figuring out the best temperatures for him and feeding would be greatly appreciated. And if I'm doing everything all wrong, please let me know!

[Toronto1977]

The good thing about Kings are that they're extremely hardy and fairly simple in terms of husbandry. In my experience, you don't really have to worry about being so specific. (with Kings or Corns)

Can we see photos of your little guy and his enclosure?

My Brooks rarely spends time on the hot side which is between 85 - 88. It has 3 hides: 1 on the hot side, 1 on the cool side, and a moist hide (which it loves). That way it can decide whether it wants heat, cooler temp, or moisture.

Your little one is not rattling its tail because it's hungry. They do that defensively. When mine is hungry it is very restless and alert. That is how I can tell it's hungry, and there's no mistaking when a King is hungry lol. If you can still see a large bulge, I think the pinkies are just right. Although, I was already feeding mine fuzzies at that size.

A 40 gallon tank is quite big for such a small snake, and it usually makes them feel insecure. If you're providing a lot of cover and hides it should be ok, but I would personally transfer him into a smaller enclosure until he gets larger. I do not use bulbs for any of my snakes and they do just fine with heat tape. I do have a thermostat and I'd recommend getting one, if you don't have one already.

[rmfsnakes32]

Good advice couldn't have said it better and thanks for the good info on your set up that does help give better sugestions

[Kettennatter]

The advice given is solid, and your king snake's behavior seems normal to me. Please find time to just sit back, relax, and enjoy watching your king snake antics.

[bcoop1234]

I have a normal king and a Mexican black king... They both have basically the same setup as listed above except no moist hide, but i do have a water dish large enough for them to get their whole body into... The normal just uses it as a cool down spot and lays close to it and my Mexican loves to be in the water... They are both good eaters but my normal is a nut when he smells food in the air... Most times i need to use my hook to keep him in the cage because he comes flying towards the door when i open it... With both i just put the food in the cage and they go after it... The normal sometimes takes a while because he is all over the front of the glass until he smells food behind him and figures it out.

[Jlassiter]

Two things I get out of reading these posts.....

If you want to learn from your snakes take into account what they are doing and why they are doing it.

These are just an outsider's view looking in. I do not know your set ups or husbandry techniques.

bcoop1234:
Your snake is always in the water because it is rehydrating itself due to dry air.
Do you use a heat lamp?
BTW....what is a "normal king?"
There are around 20 different subspecies to Lampropeltis.

Toronto1977:
Your king is rarely on the hot side because of two possible reasons.
1. There isn't a great thermal gradient difference from the cold to the hot side.
or
2. He is on the cool side conserving because he may need to be fed more.


And the comment about not having to be so specific is spot on.....
The best thing to do is to provide multiple choices including a thermal and humidity gradient and let the snake choose where it wants to be at any given time.

Not busting anyone's chops just trying to provide some input as to why snakes do what they do and how to learn from them....

I am sure your kings will live long, happy, captive lives with you.....

[Jlassiter]

BTW Toronto1977....That was GREAT advice!

[Falconeer999]

Thanks for the feedback. I will post some pictures after work tonight.

When feeding - how do you tell when he's "full"? Are they like goldfish who will keep eating as long as you offer them food?

I have been putting him in a separate container for feeding and I'll hold the mouse with some tongs. After I give him his 2 mice, one at a time (process takes about 5 minutes from offering first mouse to finish swallowing the 2nd), I put the container in his regular cage and let him come out on his own. He has no problem grabbing the mice like that (the first eating he ate both mice butt first even though I offered head first) and he doesn't coil around them - is that because he's always had frozen or simply because there's not enough to coil around?

Like I said, I'm new at this - I've had cats, dogs, fish, and a parrot, but this is the first snake (which my parrot saw for the first time this weekend and wasn't too happy about).

[bcoop1234]

Two things I get out of reading these posts.....
bcoop1234:
Your snake is always in the water because it is rehydrating itself due to dry air.
Do you use a heat lamp?
BTW....what is a "normal king?"
There are around 20 different subspecies to Lampropeltis.


Sorry, I guess normal is really a bad term... I just mean normal black and white cal king.

No I don't use lamps, my mexican is in a 26qt tub using flexwatt... room temperature on the cool side, about 75 to 80 depending on time of day, and the warm side stays at a constant 84-85.

[Toronto1977]

BTW Toronto1977....That was GREAT advice!

Thanks John!

I actually have zero issues with my Brooks ;) There's almost a 10 deg variance between hot and cold. It actually never enjoyed too much heat. Eats like a champ and is very active. If you check my last update photos you'll see just how thick the little porker is lol.

[bcoop1234]

Thanks for the feedback. I will post some pictures after work tonight.

When feeding - how do you tell when he's "full"? Are they like goldfish who will keep eating as long as you offer them food?

I have been putting him in a separate container for feeding and I'll hold the mouse with some tongs. After I give him his 2 mice, one at a time (process takes about 5 minutes from offering first mouse to finish swallowing the 2nd), I put the container in his regular cage and let him come out on his own. He has no problem grabbing the mice like that (the first eating he ate both mice butt first even though I offered head first) and he doesn't coil around them - is that because he's always had frozen or simply because there's not enough to coil around?

Like I said, I'm new at this - I've had cats, dogs, fish, and a parrot, but this is the first snake (which my parrot saw for the first time this weekend and wasn't too happy about).

I just put the food in the cage for my 2 kings, no need to dangle the food with the tongs, they just smell food and lunge at it... Now for my 3 boas I do the dancing dead rat trick and they strike at it.

As for feeding, you normally want to get a meal that is about the thickness of the snake... I buy mine f/t in bulk so even with a bag of rat pups they tend to grow rather quick as a baby so I start with one and then as they get bigger I give them 2 or even 3 until the bag runs out and then i just get them a bigger size so they only need one. I feed all my snakes in their enclosures.

[Jlassiter]

Sorry, I guess normal is really a bad term... I just mean normal black and white cal king.

No I don't use lamps, my mexican is in a 26qt tub using flexwatt... room temperature on the cool side, about 75 to 80 depending on time of day, and the warm side stays at a constant 84-85.


That IS a small gradient but getula are hardier than mexicana and montane kings.

My prefered set up is keeping my snake room at 72F and providing an isolated warm spot near 90F.
After my snakes eat they go to the hot spot to digest then return to the cool side when they feel the need to conserve. That is when they get their next meal.
Feeding frequency all Depends on the snakes size and the size of prey.

When they are growing they eat smaller prey and want to eat more often.
Smaller prey digests faster. All caloric intake at this time is put into growth.
They want to eat at least twice a week when they are young.

When they are adults they eat larger prey that takes longer to digest. You'll see adults wanting to eat around once a week. This is where the cookie cutter care sheets typically say once a week is perfect for all kings......Caloric intake is not used for growth when they are adults. It is used to sustain.

I say that a once a week feeding will keep a young snake alive but not allow it to thrive. A once a week feeding works well for adults, coincidentally but not well for growing colubrids.

[Falconeer999]

Ok, here are the pictures of my tank. Head on, full top, then to the left and right, both from the top. On the cool side, he has a "castle" that used to belong to my hermit crabs - this is where he curls up a lot. There is also a plastic coffee container - this is where I usually find him when I wake up in the morning. He does spend most of his time curled up under the vines or crawling around in them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/falconeer999/Snake/P1000775.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/falconeer999/Snake/P1000776.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/falconeer999/Snake/P1000777.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/falconeer999/Snake/P1000778.jpg

[Falconeer999]

I'm also providing some pictures of his feeding from tonight. He ate 2 pinkies again. I'm hoping y'all can look at this and let me know if these are too small and he's ready for the next size up. Also included a photo with a ruler to see how long he is (little out of focus - he wouldn't pose!) Last picture you can sort of see the bulge where the food is right before his body comes out of the coffee container.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/falconeer999/Snake/P1000780.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/falconeer999/Snake/P1000786.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/falconeer999/Snake/P1000783.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/falconeer999/Snake/P1000788.jpg

[Gungirl]

He is nice looking.

[Jlassiter]

I would feed him larger pinks or small fuzzies.....
I would also do away with the light and use an under the tank heating pad.....

[Falconeer999]

I've got the light off him and using just the under tank pad. I'll get him some smaller fuzzies and start him feeding on those his next feeding.

Thanks for the help. Hope all the questions aren't minded. I'm sure some of them seem trivial/simple.

[bcoop1234]

Hey, this is a forum and people here are ready to help and answer questions in any way they can... Nothing is to trivial. Enjoy your new little friends, and be careful... Like ive seen in another persons post... Snakes are like potato chips.... its really hard to have just one.

[Jlassiter]

I don't mind helping those that want help.

It's those that already think they know it all that annoy me.....lol
I still don't know it all and I've been doing this for over two decades.

Just keep in mind that there are many ways to keep captive reptiles.
Many ways will keep them alive, few will allow them to thrive.

[Falconeer999]

My daughter, who is 7 1/2 and the main driving force behind all this (though I admit I was happy with her interest), asked me yesterday why is it that most people who have snakes have more than one.

[Falconeer999]

I gave him his first fuzzy tonight. I started to panic because he's swallow the pinkies like they were nothing - about 25 seconds and the pinkie was entirely gone. He's been working at this fuzzy for about 5-7 minutes and at first he wasn't able to get past the head. He worked it and worked it and wrapped himself up around it and constricted it and he JUST finished swallowing it. Gave me a scare though because I was so used to seeing him just swallow the pinkies with no effort whatsoever. Started to write a panic post here asking how to get the head out of his mouth! He did it though!

Is it normal for them to take a little while to get the bigger size mice down like that or is that a sign that it may have been a tad too big for him? Or was the simple fact that he was able to do it with some work mean that was the right size?

[Jlassiter]

If he got it down and he has the right temps he'll be fine....
I recommended large pinks or small fuzzies......I don't know what size "fuzzy" you got......
It does take them longer to down a larger prey item.....
If husbandry is incorrect he will regurge then you must wait 10 days before feeding again.

[Falconeer999]

Area I'm in is fairly slim pickings for places to get frozen mice. Petsmart is the only pet store in about a 40 mile radius. They sell Arctic Mice brand there - I picked through their boxes and found the ones with the smallest fuzzies, though they were all pretty much the same size.

I'll be ordering some small fuzzies online to be delivered. In the meantime, I'll keep an eye to see if he regurgitates. Temperatures have been pretty good - 74/87. Got rid of the light and using just the UTH with a thermostat. Humidity has been staying around 45-50% with that set up.

[Jlassiter]

Humidity should be ambient in the enclosure but if provided a damp, moss filled a tub large enough for your snake to enter then it will have a choice to use humidity when it needs to.
It should not be forced to live at one humidity level.....

But some do okay with this type of set up......
I just prefer to offer captives choices.

[Falconeer999]

I had planned this weekend to put together a humidity tub with moss. He'll have one by the end of Saturday.

[Jlassiter]

Great...sounds good!

[Falconeer999]

BTW - thanks for all your help and pointers. GREATLY appreciated! And I'm sure the snake appreciates it too.

[Jlassiter]

No problem...
Just remember....My way is not the only way.
You'll find many other opinions concerning husbandry of colubrids...

Just take what you want, apply it and learn from it.

You'll soon know why they do what they do when they do it....LOL

[Falconeer999]

One other quick question - for the thermostat probe - I've read many different opinions as to placement and people arguing about whether placing the probe inside the cage is a hazard. When using an UTH, where do you recommend putting the probe? Should it be in the tank on the glass, above the heater, under the substrate? Taped to the inside of the tank, level with the substrate? Outside the tank somewhere (attached to the mat)?

As many places as I can think to put it, I've read good and bad on each of them.

[Jlassiter]

My thermostat sensors are directly on the hottest surface so I can set it where I want.
So on the glass above the heat pad is best IMHO.

[Falconeer999]

So is it inside the tank or between the glass and the pad?

[TremTricolors]

My thermostat sensors are directly on the hottest surface so I can set it where I want.
So on the glass above the heat pad is best IMHO.

The only problem with doing that, don't tape it there as the snake may eventually get wrapped up in it. The heat from the pad will keep the sticky part of the tape extremely sticky. I say set it right on top of the heat bad and use a infrared temp gun to set the temps for the inside of the tank. Typically from what I have found is there is roughly a 6 degree difference between what the pad is set at and the actually tank temp. There are many variables but that is what I have experienced.

The other thing is there is no need to get a cord into the tank and leave a small hole in the screen top for the snake to escape.

[Jlassiter]

Yea...I keep forgetting it's not in a rack...
I run my cord beside my tub and the sensor sets right next to the back heat.....cable or flexwatt.

I wouldn't ever use tape either...

Good call James!....lol

[rmfsnakes32]

I love this thread its been very informative I think I will apply some of this to my milksnake thanks all for posting such great advice! :)

[Falconeer999]

It's been very valuable to me!

During feeding Sunday I noticed that his scales were a little milky/dull so I am thinking it's close to shed time. His eyes weren't clouded over yet though. I added a humidity hide Saturday, though I've yet to see any indication that he's used it. He spends almost all his time buried in his aspen. There seems to be an intricate highway system that he's built - there's holes all over the place where he's popped up/gone under.

Two questions:

1) Is it okay if the humidity hide is see through or should I try to find a dark/solid container?

2) Will a snake shed while burrowed or will they come up to do that on the surface?

[Jlassiter]

The humid hide can be translucent....no biggie....

The snake will shed anywhere....Usually around his water bowl, or on any hide, rock, branch that he can rub against to molt his old skin.......

[Jlassiter]

BTW...Glad your snake is making his enclosure home.....

[Falconeer999]

Got home from work today and he was on top of his bedding - and his eyes were clouded over. Guess we'll be having a shed fairly soon. Should I do anything special like increase the overall humidity of the room he's in? Ambient humidity in the room now is about 35-40%. I also have the humid hide for him. I can run a humidifier in the room and bring the ambient humidity anywhere from 50-70%.

Should I just let him decide if he wants the extra humidity (go into the hide) or help out by raising the ambient also?

Anything else special I should do?

[Jlassiter]

The humid hide will do....he knows what to do if options are provided.

[Falconeer999]

Well I think he's finished shedding now. His skin is all shiny and lustrous looking, not all cloudy like they were a week ago. Friday night I saw a spot about 1/2" back from his head where the skin was peeling away. However, there's no skin on the top of his substrate (aspen). Should I dig around under his substrate for it?

Last night the peeling spot was gone and I offered him a mouse. He wasn't the least bit interested - had been 7 days since he last ate. A little while ago I went in there and he was extremely active and looked to be hunting for food. I put a mouse in there and it took him about 10 seconds to latch onto it. He's all constricted around it now inside his water bowl - first he's done that.

Does this sound like normal behavior?

[Jlassiter]

Sounds normal to me.....
After he eats....you can look for the shed skin.....
Just make sure he really did shed and that there is no stuck shed on him......