Juvi IJ python died from Cloacal prolapse ;(

[Tekpc007]

I'm quite sad , just thursday morning was the first time i was able to handle her without gloves as she had just started to trust me . i had put her back in her viv that morning after handling . she had ate last Sunday the 12th without issue , had been acting normal. Now i dont check on them everyday especially after handing so after thursday morning handling i didn't check her till saturday afternoon when i changed water . She was dead in her hide :( , and her cloaca was extended out of her body almost 1.5 inches and very swollen and the area just before it of her body was very swollen before the vent . She must have died in the night as she was not rigored , so i put her in a tupperware and took her to my vet assistant buddies house to look over . he said it was a Cloacal prolapse and also what looked like a intestinal blockage We decided to do a quick disection and discovered a blockage from what looked like an infection , and as we looked closer , it looked like a splinter of aspen had lodged in the intestinal track and caused an infection and swelling thus cuasing a fecal blockage also. this peice of aspen was very small , not much bigger than a broken pencil lead .

i did feed her in her cage , and i do feed my other boa in his cage also but my Juvi BRB i always feed in a seperate tub as his viv is so full of vines and cover that i like to see him actually eat and keep it down . i never thought this would happen , i try to make sure that no aspen gets on the FT food after they take it from the tongs but they aften drag it onto the bedding and reposition it for swollowing.

I will no longer feed in the cage , from now on it will be in a seperate tub with only paper towel bedding. i always worried about this happening with my boa and IJ , but not the BRB. it just not worth the risk to me anymore to feed in the cage .

Just wanted to spread the word , even the smallest peice of substrate can cause death and i know many of you feed in the cage and substrate gets on the food. please be careful ! I know many will keep feeding in the cage , maybe use a plate or some thing in the cage to feed on.

:(

rest in peace my friend.
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8894/sam0323mm.jpg

[Donnie]

Sorry to hear of your loss :(

[maximus30576]

Dude im so sorry to hear this .. At least you know what happened and how not to let it happen again .. I hate the look of newspaper bedding but in the long run i guess it is the best way to go .. I too feed in the cage on repti bark but i am strongly thinking about newspaper .. RIP little guy ...

[Tekpc007]

Well I'm just going to feed in a seperate tub from now on , I do this with my brb already . He goes in the tub for 20 minutes to eat and then right back into his cage and i notice no adverse behavior but he is a juvi still. I will have to see how this works with the 2 year old Hog Island who is 3.5 feet , i may try putting the tub with no lid in his viv so his behavior is not afected. Just have to see...

I just wanted to warn others , even though your snake has eaten 100's of times in the cage on the substrate , it can happen anytime that they eat a small peice that you don't see so take the steps to prevent it. a feeding tub in the cage may be a good way or outside the cage alltogether.

[exwizard]

Sorry for your loss. Its never easy, I know.

[Kaetlinv]

Id always worried about something like this happening to my snake.....ive fed both of mine in an outside "kill box" as it were, since i got them. They seem to not mind. I rarely have trouble with them.

[shaunyboy]

sorry for your loss mate

i don't use aspen with carpets,as the dust in it can cause respiritory issues

its just been BAD LUCK the way things went with your irian

i use newspaper in all my tanks,its much easier to work with

i hope this has not put you off getting another carpet python

all the best shaun

[maximus30576]

I dont think i could feed my hog island outside then put her back without getting bit , she strikes at everything for another day or so .. Think im going to newspaper or some kind of carpet

[alessia55]

I'm sorry for your loss :( losing a pet is never easy

[Terranaut]

Oh man I am sorry. Are you sure the little guy passed due to aspen? It just seems quick to me. A few weeks with no pooing is normal for a bigger carpet. My babies born in may have only gone 4 times for one and 3 the other. Not saying it wasn't the aspen but are you sure it was? Another thing about aspen is there are more than one cut. I get the larger shavings and not the little straw like stuff. I also feed my smaller snakes either hanging from a perch or set it on a piece of cardboard. Although you have had this happen I still feel that in the enclosure is best for your snake. I have heard of impaction from aspen but you would be the first person I have ever actually seen post that it killed your snake. I think if it was aspen that this is rare still even though it is possible.

[Tekpc007]

i should say it was a mix of aspen and cypress , so it could have been either wood. When he opened her up , it looked at if the wood splinter have caused a swelling and infection and blocked her ability to poo , so he thinks she was trying to poo and pushing caused the prolapse . I meant to edit the title but couldnt , its likey she died of the combo of things from the blockage,infection and prolapse and stress. See seemed ok earlier in the week and has been very healthy but he said the infection likley was there for several days but not noticed by me.

[DavethePython]

Sorry to hear . I feed in cage too . Most of mine are on snake carpet . It is reusable and cleaner . I just pull it out replace it with a fresh one and wash the used one . I used aspen at first too and fed on a plate but again they often dragged it off . My wife changed hers back to aspen from carpet . Maybe I can convince her to switch back again . I have also notices with the carpet my snakes have an easier shed . They can roll and rub along it and the shed seems to catch to the carpet fibers and pulls easier , at least in my observations . Carpet with a nice pile of moist moss for them to hide in helps with the humidity issues especially during shed . My snakes love it and no more worries about swallowing something they should not .

[Tekpc007]

yep i have corrigated wrap cardboard im going to switch to for all the snakes except the BRB who has to stay on the cypress for humidity.

[iBaman]

I am so sorry =[ I wonder if her size had anything to do with the impaction? or maybe she got splinters...in any case, this is a terrible tragedy =[

[bigsnakegirl785]

Sorry for your loss. :( This is also the reason I feed my boa outside the cage. One day I decided to try feeding him in his cage, but put a piece of cardboard 1/2 the size of the cage in there. He drug it off and got some of the ecoearth in his mouth. I removed the rat from the cage (he dropped it) and got all the bedding out, making sure even the smallest piece was removed. (He helped me out by opening his mouth wide. lol) After that was done, I put him in his feeding bucket. I won't feed him in his enclosure anymore.

[iBaman]

see, some of us can't feed certain species outside of their enclosure (see: reticulated python, burmese python, etc)...mine's always been feed on cypress and hasn't had a problem, but I wonder if it's because at his size, it's a little easier to pass the cypress?

[Wildside]

I am so sorry =[ I wonder if her size had anything to do with the impaction? or maybe she got splinters...in any case, this is a terrible tragedy =[

I was wondering this too.

[MoreliAddict]

Sorry for the loss

[Tekpc007]

it was internal , near the vent the area was all infected near the end of the intestinal tract and we found the peice of aspen with swollen tissue all around it embedded in the intestinal wall. it appeared the tiny peice of substrate lodged in the intestinal wall , swelled and got infected , thus she could not poop and she must have been trying to push thus ended up with the prolapse. The prolapse may not have directly caused the death , but the combination of things.

[Wildside]

it was internal , near the vent the area was all infected near the end of the intestinal tract and we found the peice of aspen with swollen tissue all around it embedded in the intestinal wall. it appeared the tiny peice of substrate lodged in the intestinal wall , swelled and got infected , thus she could not poop and she must have been trying to push thus ended up with the prolapse. The prolapse may not have directly caused the death , but the combination of things.

I think what iBaman and I are trying to look deeper into is how directly this might be related to size and age. Obviously it could happen to any snake fed on substrate but what I am wondering is if the risk diminishes as the baby grows. You would think so as they become more careful hunters with more established digestive systems. It's just a thought that needs to be explored for those of us who need/prefer substrate on those animals that you definitely don't want to remove from the cage for feeding.

[Tekpc007]

I see, well the peice was so small , about 2 mm by 4 mm or about the size of a broken pencil lead . all it takes is for a peice of wood to lodge in the wrong way in the instestinal track . Now i have seen my larger boa eat a rat and some substrate was on it and he ate it before i could do anything and it has happened more than once but he has always been fine. But i dont think that matters really though, its just lucky he passed it without it snagging his intestines likey due to a larger stomach with more digestive juices to break it down. i think it can happen at any time , it worries me enough to feed in a seperate tub so i have have peace of mind especially for high $$$ snakes . I have had no issues feeding outside the cage in a tub so long as i let them settle down for 20 minutes before they go back in and i use a hook. They are fine when i take them out for handing , no feeding response issues so far.

[millertime89]

wow, that's so sad to hear, really sorry for your loss. This is seriously the one in a million chance of this happening. Just sucks.

[allenj3210]

So so sorry for your lose :(

[Terranaut]

How long was it since its last bm until death?

[Tekpc007]

about 3 weeks , there was alot of poo in front of the infection that could not pass the swelling.

[Terranaut]

But 3 weeks isn't all that long. Must have been a horrible infection. Poor thing :(

[Gregg M]

First, sorry for the loss.

The only way something like this can happen is if the animal is not being cared for properly.
Quite frankly, a soft bit of aspen is nothing compared to what goes throught their intestinal tract. For example, my gaboons used to regularly pass 1 and a half inch fangs quite regularly. Carpets pass teeth that break or shed as well. There is no way a tiny bit of aspen that has passed the stomach would be hard enough to break the intestinal wall and cause an infection inless the animal was not being cared for and its digestive system was non-functioning.

Also, vet techs are in no way qualified to preform a necropsy and diagnose the situation. How does he know there was an infection? Did he get a culture and send it out to a lab?

As I always say, it is not the substrate that causes inpaction, it is improper husbandry that does.

[Tekpc007]

First, sorry for the loss.

The only way something like this can happen is if the animal is not being cared for properly.
Quite frankly, a soft bit of aspen is nothing compared to what goes throught their intestinal tract. For example, my gaboons used to regularly pass 1 and a half inch fangs quite regularly. Carpets pass teeth that break or shed as well. There is no way a tiny bit of aspen that has passed the stomach would be hard enough to break the intestinal wall and cause an infection inless the animal was not being cared for and its digestive system was non-functioning.

Also, vet techs are in no way qualified to preform a necropsy and diagnose the situation. How does he know there was an infection? Did he get a culture and send it out to a lab?

As I always say, it is not the substrate that causes inpaction, it is improper husbandry that does.


Really?!!! what i woud like to say to you sir , would likley get me banned .... so you can just use your imagination. you were not present ... I wont waste my time go over the details with the likes of you either as you are not worth the effort to me.

[rmfsnakes32]

Im sorry for your loss my suriname died a month ago she had bacterial infection and quit eating the day she was to go to the vet for her next shot she was dead!

[Gregg M]

Really?!!! what i woud like to say to you sir , would likley get me banned .... so you can just use your imagination. you were not present ... I wont waste my time go over the details with the likes of you either as you are not worth the effort to me.

I think you need to chill yourself out. Why would you want to say something to me that would get you banned? Did I say something to upset you? I guess the truth can hurt sometimes. It is easy to pass the blame on something like substrate instead of admitting you might have done something wrong that ultimately contributed to the death of your snake.

For the record, aspen is 100% digestable. The stomach acids will break it down long before it makes its way into the intestinal tract. Like I said, the only way it could ever become an issue is if your animal was not being properly cared for. Take responsibility instead of being nasty. You might actually learn from your mistakes when they are pointed out to you.

[Tekpc007]

I think you need to chill yourself out. Why would you want to say something to me that would get you banned? Did I say something to upset you? I guess the truth can hurt sometimes. It is easy to pass the blame on something like substrate instead of admitting you might have done something wrong that ultimately contributed to the death of your snake.

For the record, aspen is 100% digestable. The stomach acids will break it down long before it makes its way into the intestinal tract. Like I said, the only way it could ever become an issue is if your animal was not being properly cared for. Take responsibility instead of being nasty. You might actually learn from your mistakes when they are pointed out to you.


you already pointed out to me that you dont have a clue . go troll some other forums... you dont know the details beyond whats posted so your speculating , next you will tell me you a reptile vet is my guess.

[Gregg M]

you already pointed out to me that you dont have a clue . go troll some other forums... you dont know the details beyond whats posted so your speculating , next you will tell me you a reptile vet is my guess.

What makes you think I do not have a clue? Please, explain.

I am not a reptile vet. I am not a herpetologist. I am simply a person who has been keeping and breeding various species of snakes and lizards for over 25 years.

So, now is your chance to prove my speculation wrong. Why not share the details. Not just with me, but with everyone. Things like prey size, caging, heating, temps, humidity, and so on. Seriously, the detail can help get to the bottom of things. I am not trying to argue. I think you can use some help and advice from experienced keepers.

do me a favor ? next time you have one of your venomous out , sneeze for me and die slow ...

Seriously, how old are you? Wishing death on someone is not a good show of character. Maybe you have anger issues? Whatever it is, you should sort it out. Your animals may even benefit from it.

[Tekpc007]

I am not a reptile vet. I am not a herpetologist. I am simply a person who has been keeping and breeding various species of snakes and lizards for over 25 years.

So, now is your chance to prove my speculation wrong. Why not share the details. Not just with me, but with everyone. Things like prey size, caging, heating, temps, humidity, and so on. Seriously, the detail can help get to the bottom of things. I am not trying to argue. I think you can use some help and advice from experienced keepers.



Seriously, how old are you? Wishing death on someone is not a good show of character. Maybe you have anger issues? Whatever it is, you should sort it out. Your animals may even benefit from it.

I'm 44 , have 3 other snakes , which you can see the details of if you search this forum . Not feeding the troll , go sneeze already... did you real the whole thread? every post? how about look up my other posts and critique those also...

[Kingsnakechris]

Sorry for the loss my friend, it's sad to see people on here who can't even post on a thread like this one, without having to prove to everyone that they know everything about snakes. know it alls will be know it alls, but let them make themselves look like that all they want. Again, I am sorry about your loss.

[Gregg M]

I'm 44 , have 3 other snakes , which you can see the details of if you search this forum . Not feeding the troll , go sneeze already...

Well I a suprized that at 44 years old, you still need to learn how to be a human being. It is obvious you still have lots to learn about keeping reptiles. Also, I have better things to do than search an entire forum for some of your ramblings. Add the details of this particular snake that you killed and I might be able to help you out and keep you from doing it in the future. You obviously need to do more than just not feed in a cage with bedding. Again, if the animals was not cared for properly, this would have not been an issue.

Sorry for the loss my friend, it's sad to see people on here who can't even post on a thread like this one, without having to prove to everyone that they know everything about snakes. know it alls will be know it alls, but let them make themselves look like that all they want. Again, I am sorry about your loss.

So I guess these forums will be much better off without people who have the experience to help people with proplems and who can teach them to not make the same mistake. That is completely logical.

[Kingsnakechris]

The best time to point out someone's mistakes ( even if they made none) is after a pet dies? Give it a rest....

[Tekpc007]

Well I a suprized that at 44 years old, you still need to learn how to be a human being. It is obvious you still have lots to learn about keeping reptiles. Also, I have better things to do than search an entire forum for some of your ramblings. Add the details of this particular snake that you killed and I might be able to help you out and keep you from doing it in the future. You obviously need to do more than just not feed in a cage with bedding. Again, if the animals was not cared for properly, this would have not been an issue.

obvious you have not read the thread...there is nothing you can teach me kid. gotta love know it alls ... ZOMG your husbandry is wrong !! blah blah ... mods have been asked to lock this up.

please make a threads of all the snakes you keep and husbandry and pics , and we will help you fix your mistakes , how is that?

[Kingsnakechris]

I'm in no shape way or form looking to start drama BUT, out of however many people who posted anything in this thread, you are the only one to say " sorry for your loss, but YOU killed your snake". That's all im getting at.

[Kavyrie]

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss, and sorry that someone has to give you a hard time about it. I hope that if you decide to get another python that you have better luck, sometimes things like this happen unfortunately. Unless of course, you keep them in a bubble.

[Gregg M]

obvious you have not read the thread...there is nothing you can teach me kid. gotta love know it alls ... ZOMG your husbandry is wrong !! blah blah ... mods have been asked to lock this up.

First of all, I am no kid. I am not sure why you keep trying to disrespect me. Just trying to help. Like I said before, people are so quick to blame something like substate. The fact is, when something goes wrong, it is ALWAYS husbandry related.

please make a threads of all the snakes you keep and husbandry and pics , and we will help you fix your mistakes , how is that?

I never asked for pics. Just some quick details. You were most likely not keeping your carpet correctly and that is why it died from something it should not have died from.

[Gungirl]

ugh.. boys boys boys...

The snake died.. you obviously don't care to hear others opinions. Gregg knows his stuff and was just trying to help. He just failed to sugar coat it right for you. Enough is enough guys..

[Gregg M]

I'm in no shape way or form looking to start drama BUT, out of however many people who posted anything in this thread, you are the only one to say " sorry for your loss, but YOU killed your snake". That's all im getting at.

So, is what I said in any way untrue? I never really came right out and said he killed his snake until he got all pissy with me and told me to get bitten by one of my vens. Real classy by the way.

Did I get nasty, personal, or disrespectful?

This is something anyone reading can learn from. Him posting the details might clear up this foggy thread.
Just the name of the thread alone is vague and incorrect. There is no such thing as a cloacal prolapse. It is either an intestinal or sex organ prolapse.

I am also not a big fan of scare mongering in the form of a "warning".

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8314/7921502046_9741f1bce5_z.jpg

These were raised on aspen by the way.

[Tekpc007]

my jungle is doing great http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/morelia-spilota/94512-new-jungle-pics.html, hog island too ... BRB also ...about to post new BRB pics .

[infernalis]

OK, I have some editing to do.

I understand being emotional after losing a specimen that you have cared for, I am going to stop this thread temporarily until tomorrow while folks regroup, then I will re open it so we can get somewhere and possibly help others.

but the fighting has to stop!

[infernalis]

OK folks, I re-opened the thread, I am not going to edit anything.. Tekpc broke the rules in a bad way, then carried the drama into another thread.

My hand was forced, it's over. Carry on.

[Snickers]

Yeah like Gregg M said it most likely wasn't impaction from the substrate because snakes can swallow anything.

[BarelyBreathing]

I'm going to have to respectfully agree with Gregg, also. Impaction, as most keepers view it, is a myth. Sure, impaction happens, but it is caused by one of several possibilities:

-Dehydrated animal
-Basking spot too cool
-Animal has a pre-existing condition that somehow impacts digestion
-Manufactured substrate that is meant to absorb and is not digestible (CalciSand comes to mind here)

That being said, unless you have a necropsy report nobody can be 100% sure what this animal died from. Could the aspen have killed a perfectly healthy, well set up animal? No. Could aspen bedding have killed an already ill, dehydrated, or not well heated animal? Absolutely.

[red ink]

OK folks, I re-opened the thread, I am not going to edit anything.. Tekpc broke the rules in a bad way, then carried the drama into another thread.

My hand was forced, it's over. Carry on.

Mate... whats that now, the second member in a week? Not questioning your judgement just an observation. Weird vibe in the forum at the moment :hmm:

[infernalis]

My take on this is that anyone who REFUSES to disclose their husbandry practices in situations like this, are usually guilty of poor husbandry practices.

Gregg asked for details and got treated like crap.

[shaunyboy]

i'm NOT getting into all the rights and wrongs of this thread,but.....

since new carpet keepers may read it...

cool end high 70'sF to low 80'sF

ambient air temp mid 80'sF

basking spot of 88F to 90F

i and a few other carpet keepers i know in the UK,do NOT use aspen due to it having caused,some mild respiritory issues with carpets,we think it's down to the high dust content,in the aspen

the aspen in the states may be better dust wise,than the crap we get over here in the UK

cheers shaun

[Gregg M]

the aspen in the states may be better dust wise,than the crap we get over here in the UK



It must be because the aspen here has virtually no dust at all. It is one of the main snake beddings here because it is not toxic, digestable and it has a low dust content.

[Terranaut]

I have seen my snakes eat aspen in the past with no ill affects. I don't like the smell of aspen. Not mouldy or anything just aspen at 70% humidity gives off a smell. Now add the fact that I have 60 sqft of it all in the same room and its a bit stinky. But its so cheap. It's a pickle :)

[shaunyboy]

It must be because the aspen here has virtually no dust at all. It is one of the main snake beddings here because it is not toxic, digestable and it has a low dust content.

the stuff over here Greg comes packed in a paper sack,when you take out a handfull and clap it in your hands,clouds of dust rise out it

if it was'nt for the dust i'd go back to using it,as it was easy to spot clean and looked good in the tank

i have seen carpets injest it with no issues

i'm on newspaper substrate with all my carpets now mate

cheers shaun

[MoreliAddict]

It must be because the aspen here has virtually no dust at all. It is one of the main snake beddings here because it is not toxic, digestable and it has a low dust content.
What may have been off about Tekpc007's husbandry which prevented this carpet from properly passing the aspen? Not enough heat?

I keep and feed my snakes on aspen and never have any problems...

[rmfsnakes32]

My local pet store does not even carry aspen when I asked why told me to much conflicting data about RI and stomach issues. Petco on the other hand does carry it Im nervous about using it or not. Im using newspaper at the moment!

[MoreliAddict]

My local pet store does not even carry aspen when I asked why told me to much conflicting data about RI and stomach issues. Petco on the other hand does carry it Im nervous about using it or not. Im using newspaper at the moment!
Newspaper could be the safest way to go. I'm always sure to buy aspen with snakes n stuff on the package, so I know the bedding is meant for reptiles...

[Wildside]

I can honestly see a baby having a problem like this. Their bodies are still trying to figure out exactly how to do things. That's why I use paper towels/newspaper until they're a good six months old. But I have never ever had a problem with any well-started reptile ingesting substrate. None of them go around being fed on plates or in substrate free areas in the wild. I think this was just a "lightning strike" incident and maybe the OP should invest in a few lottery tickets.

[Gregg M]

What may have been off about Tekpc007's husbandry which prevented this carpet from properly passing the aspen? Not enough heat?

I keep and feed my snakes on aspen and never have any problems...

Could be a heat issue or a hydration issue. This is why I really wanted the OP to lay out his husbandry for all of us to see. Instead he told me to get bitten by one of my hots. He said he kept his with an 88 degree hot spot. Personally, I feel that is a bit too low and will indeed hinder most species digestive systems from operating at full potential.

I can honestly see a baby having a problem like this. Their bodies are still trying to figure out exactly how to do things.

I do not buy this. I have raised literally over a thousand hatchling snakes on aspen. They have all ingested some at some point. Some of these hatchlings can be as small as 2 to 3 grams. They handle it fine. They have nothing to figure out. Their systems are fine tuned right from the egg or mom. They are born with the exact same equipment the adults have and it is fully functional.

That's why I use paper towels/newspaper until they're a good six months old. But I have never ever had a problem with any well-started reptile ingesting substrate. None of them go around being fed on plates or in substrate free areas in the wild. I think this was just a "lightning strike" incident and maybe the OP should invest in a few lottery tickets.

I would NEVER use newspaper. It is too dry and does not retain a proper humidity gradient, it offers next to no security, it stinks when soiled, and if a snake craps on it, they usually slither through it getting it all over themselves. It really is of no benefit.

[Snickers]

Newspaper bedding only seems to benefit the keeper, making it convenient for cage cleaning.

[Gregg M]

Newspaper bedding only seems to benefit the keeper, making it convenient for cage cleaning.

Exactly. It does nothing for the reptile and can actually be harmfull to many species.

[infernalis]

Get this folks tekpc007 just made 6 attempts to log in as me!!

I hope you are reading this you idiot.. Try it again I will file criminal charges.

Your IP address has been logged, I know without any doubt it's you.

My password is strong, that's why you did not guess it, nor will you crack it.

[aaron_cg]

Aww, sorry to hear that, she looked beautiful. Sorry for your loss

[iBaman]

Exactly. It does nothing for the reptile and can actually be harmfull to many species.

IMHO, cypress is the way to go. Keeps it humid, smells rather nice (even when wet) and easy to spot clean =3

[Wildside]

I would NEVER use newspaper. It is too dry and does not retain a proper humidity gradient, it offers next to no security, it stinks when soiled, and if a snake craps on it, they usually slither through it getting it all over themselves. It really is of no benefit.

It's awesome when you're running short on paper towels.

[Terranaut]

IMHO, cypress is the way to go. Keeps it humid, smells rather nice (even when wet) and easy to spot clean =3

I have been messing around with substrates for months. Mixing this and that. Cypress seems good but the stuff we get here is just cut to big. Cocco husk seems the best but is expensive as is reptibark. I found a cheap aspen with no dust. But I still don't like it. I dont like the look of newspaper. I gotta find something else.

[iBaman]

aww. ours is nice and fine, so I love it

[Gungirl]

Lmao Wayne, Does he really think that he can out smart you? FAIL!

[infernalis]

Lmao Wayne, Does he really think that he can out smart you? FAIL!

I won't pollute the thead anymore than it is with the forensics.

But come on, I own 20 some web sites, so I must know a little about how the web works.:rolleyes:

[BarelyBreathing]

Get this folks tekpc007 just made 6 attempts to log in as me!!

I hope you are reading this you idiot.. Try it again I will file criminal charges.

Your IP address has been logged, I know without any doubt it's you.

My password is strong, that's why you did not guess it, nor will you crack it.


Holy cow, really?

[infernalis]

Holy cow, really?

would I joke about something that serious?

[shaunyboy]

[quote=Gregg M;766989] He said he kept his with an 88 degree hot spot. Personally, I feel that is a bit too low and will indeed hinder most species digestive systems from operating at full potential.
[/quote


with Carpet Pythons,what do you run your basking spot at mate ?

i run my basking spots from 88F to 90F all mine eat shed etc perfectly

i have found coastals preffer it a little cooler

Diamonds a little higher a basking spot of 95F

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

Newspaper bedding only seems to benefit the keeper, making it convenient for cage cleaning.

Exactly. It does nothing for the reptile and can actually be harmfull to many species.

sorry but i know plenty carpet keepers including myself,who use newspaper with no issues

below is a picture of some of my tanks.....

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/P1000338.jpg

a hatchling Diamond Pythons tank
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/diamond%20tank/diamond%20tank/diamondtank003.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/diamond%20tank/diamond%20tank/diamondtank002.jpg

i preffer newspaper and have had no issues,with smell,or carpets trailing themselves through their own crap etc.

i also have no humidity issues,it may be different depending on which part of the world your in,but it's perfectly fine here in the UK

re temperatures
the cheap dials you see in my tanks are used for glancing at if i'm walking past my tanks.

i use a Raytek ST80 PRO lazer temperature gun to do my proper temperature checks

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

Get this folks tekpc007 just made 6 attempts to log in as me!!

I hope you are reading this you idiot.. Try it again I will file criminal charges.

Your IP address has been logged, I know without any doubt it's you.

My password is strong, that's why you did not guess it, nor will you crack it.

^^^^^
do you not think we are getting,a better class of idiot these days mate :laugh::laugh::laugh:

cheers shaun

[Kettennatter]

^^^^^
do you not think we are getting,a better class of idiot these days mate :laugh::laugh::laugh:

cheers shaun

As sad as it is, I have to admit I got a good laugh out of it. ;)

[MoreliAddict]

@shaunyboy your enclosures are amazing!!! http://www.lilwaynehq.com/forums/images/smilies/shocked.gif http://www.lilwaynehq.com/forums/images/smilies/worship.gif

[Terranaut]

sorry but i know plenty carpet keepers including myself,who use newspaper with no issues

below is a picture of some of my tanks.....

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/P1000338.jpg

a hatchling Diamond Pythons tank
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/diamond%20tank/diamond%20tank/diamondtank003.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq17/spilota01/diamond%20tank/diamond%20tank/diamondtank002.jpg

i preffer newspaper and have had no issues,with smell,or carpets trailing themselves through their own crap etc.

i also have no humidity issues,it may be different depending on which part of the world your in,but it's perfectly fine here in the UK

re temperatures
the cheap dials you see in my tanks are used for glancing at if i'm walking past my tanks.

i use a Raytek ST80 PRO lazer temperature gun to do my proper temperature checks

cheers shaun


I thought it funny you having those cheap zoomed things same as I do. Not accurate but great to glance at and see no change or change enough to check it out. I set everything with my temp gun so I know its all perfect. Great minds think alike :)

[UwabamiReptiles]

Great setup shaun. I use newspaper on all my snakes too. I have no problems with humidity, it doesn't' smell, and the snakes don't travel through their poo.

[shaunyboy]

I thought it funny you having those cheap zoomed things same as I do. Not accurate but great to glance at and see no change or change enough to check it out. I set everything with my temp gun so I know its all perfect. Great minds think alike :)

you and me are on the same page mate

as you said.....

the cheap guages have a place in the hobby,as far as i'm concerned...

they are the first thing,that will tell you of any changes in the tank...

then out comes the lazer temp gun,to confirm whats going on and adjust if needed

i think they are great wee things,for all they cost;)

thanks folks for your kind comments on the tanks

cheers shaun

[red ink]

Did you build the tanks yourself Shaun?

[shaunyboy]

Did you build the tanks yourself Shaun?

no mate i have no skills with wood.....

they come as flat pack self build vivariums

made from melamine,its wood chip covered with a laminate

cheers shaun

[BarelyBreathing]

No, I know you wouldn't joke about that. That's crazy.

[shaunyboy]

No, I know you wouldn't joke about that. That's crazy.

sorry pal you've lost me ?

joke about what ?

sorry i get confused very easily :hmm:

unless you mean did i make the tanks ?

Vivexotic VX48 Beech Vivarium (http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&q=vivariums&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1135&bih=659&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1910171643503631762&sa=X&ei=VGlTUNbrKY2zhAfSzYDAAw&ved=0CGAQ8wIwBg)

^^^^^
it's the VX range i use pal

cheers shaun

[Gungirl]

Shaun..read the page before this. Bb is talking to Wayne.

[shaunyboy]

Shaun..read the page before this. Bb is talking to Wayne.

thanks Kat.....

it's a good job you to look after me or i'd hate to think where i'd end up :wacky::wacky::wacky::laugh:

cheers shaun:)

[BarelyBreathing]

Yeah, sorry. I couldn't load the quote page for some reason. Shaun, your set up looks great.

[Snickers]

sorry pal you've lost me ?

joke about what ?

sorry i get confused very easily :hmm:

unless you mean did i make the tanks ?

Vivexotic VX48 Beech Vivarium (http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&q=vivariums&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1135&bih=659&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1910171643503631762&sa=X&ei=VGlTUNbrKY2zhAfSzYDAAw&ved=0CGAQ8wIwBg)

^^^^^
it's the VX range i use pal

cheers shaun

Awesome set-up you have, do you know if they sell those in the USA?

[shaunyboy]

Awesome set-up you have, do you know if they sell those in the USA?

with them being chip board covered with laminate,as long as you seal the edges of every panel with silicon,they do just fine

if moisture gets under the laminate into the chip board,then it tends to swell up and the chipboard falls apart

i don't need high humidity for my carpets,so it suits them fine

the sliding glass doors come out for cleaning,you simply push them all the way up into the top runner,and the bottom of the glass door,slips out the past the bottom runner

cheers shaun

[Gregg M]

with Carpet Pythons,what do you run your basking spot at mate ?


I offer all of my snakes very warm hot spots. Even species who supposedly like it cool, will still seek out and bask at high temps. My carpets have a hot spot between 95 and 97 degrees. The ambient temps in the snake room are set to 80 degrees. The carpets will frequently bask for short periods of time and move off. They will do this several times a day.

sorry but i know plenty carpet keepers including myself,who use newspaper with no issues


I said it can be harmful to many species. I never said carpets. The thing is, MOST species need to have a proper humidity gradient.

You, my friend, are also using proper cages and low wattage bulbs to heat the hot spot. So the humidity gradient does get taken out from high wattage bulbs super heating the air and it does not leave the cage as it would in a glass aquarium with a screen top. Most likely that is what the OP was keeping his in.

There is so much more to keeping reptiles than just, "put it in this here glass cage, give it an XX degree hot spot, feed it this, and give it some water". Looking at your set ups, I know for a fact you know it is not as simple as that.

You set your up exactly the way I would, only my basking temps are a bit higher and I use substrate.

With the higher basking spot, a snakes digestive system and metabolism runs much more efficiently. This is a proven fact both on a scientific level and on the keeper level. My carpets most likely eat at least twice the amout yours eat. My snake are not fat, unhealthy, or unproportioned. My 2010 darwins that were hatched way late in the year are well over 5 feet and ready to breed this winter.
Ask anyone who has seen them in person. They are in PERFECT condition.

Also, hydrating a reptile and offering conditions so your reptile can MAINTAIN its moisture intake are two totally different things. Proper hydration and maitainance if that hydration is also very important to a reptiles digestive system.

I offer them conditions they would see and utilize in the wild. The only thing I do that nature does not is keep the ideal conditions consistant and take away any unfavorable conditions.

[Terranaut]

I offer all of my snakes very warm hot spots. Even species who supposedly like it cool, will still seek out and bask at high temps. My carpets have a hot spot between 95 and 97 degrees. The ambient temps in the snake room are set to 80 degrees. The carpets will frequently bask for short periods of time and move off. They will do this several times a day.



I said it can be harmful to many species. I never said carpets. The thing is, MOST species need to have a proper humidity gradient.

You, my friend, are also using proper cages and low wattage bulbs to heat the hot spot. So the humidity gradient does get taken out from high wattage bulbs super heating the air and it does not leave the cage as it would in a glass aquarium with a screen top. Most likely that is what the OP was keeping his in.

There is so much more to keeping reptiles than just, "put it in this here glass cage, give it an XX degree hot spot, feed it this, and give it some water". Looking at your set ups, I know for a fact you know it is not as simple as that.

You set your up exactly the way I would, only my basking temps are a bit higher and I use substrate.

With the higher basking spot, a snakes digestive system and metabolism runs much more efficiently. This is a proven fact both on a scientific level and on the keeper level. My carpets most likely eat at least twice the amout yours eat. My snake are not fat, unhealthy, or unproportioned. My 2010 darwins that were hatched way late in the year are well over 5 feet and ready to breed this winter.
Ask anyone who has seen them in person. They are in PERFECT condition.

Also, hydrating a reptile and offering conditions so your reptile can MAINTAIN its moisture intake are two totally different things. Proper hydration and maitainance if that hydration is also very important to a reptiles digestive system.

I offer them conditions they would see and utilize in the wild. The only thing I do that nature does not is keep the ideal conditions consistant and take away any unfavorable conditions.

Great explanation. Thanks for sharing it. Maybe I will try this with one of mine and see how it likes it.

[shaunyboy]

I offer all of my snakes very warm hot spots. Even species who supposedly like it cool, will still seek out and bask at high temps. My carpets have a hot spot between 95 and 97 degrees. The ambient temps in the snake room are set to 80 degrees. The carpets will frequently bask for short periods of time and move off. They will do this several times a day.



I said it can be harmful to many species. I never said carpets. The thing is, MOST species need to have a proper humidity gradient.

You, my friend, are also using proper cages and low wattage bulbs to heat the hot spot. So the humidity gradient does get taken out from high wattage bulbs super heating the air and it does not leave the cage as it would in a glass aquarium with a screen top. Most likely that is what the OP was keeping his in.

There is so much more to keeping reptiles than just, "put it in this here glass cage, give it an XX degree hot spot, feed it this, and give it some water". Looking at your set ups, I know for a fact you know it is not as simple as that.

You set your up exactly the way I would, only my basking temps are a bit higher and I use substrate.

With the higher basking spot, a snakes digestive system and metabolism runs much more efficiently. This is a proven fact both on a scientific level and on the keeper level. My carpets most likely eat at least twice the amout yours eat. My snake are not fat, unhealthy, or unproportioned. My 2010 darwins that were hatched way late in the year are well over 5 feet and ready to breed this winter.
Ask anyone who has seen them in person. They are in PERFECT condition.

Also, hydrating a reptile and offering conditions so your reptile can MAINTAIN its moisture intake are two totally different things. Proper hydration and maitainance if that hydration is also very important to a reptiles digestive system.

I offer them conditions they would see and utilize in the wild. The only thing I do that nature does not is keep the ideal conditions consistant and take away any unfavorable conditions.


thanks for getting back to me,great post with good solid information mate

re your snakes
all the snakes you've posted pictures of,imo are in perfect health/condition Gregg (i love your Albino's and normal Darwins)

i like to keep my carpets lean and muscular,i feed 1 large prey item every 2 to 4 weeks,depending on which season it is

i like to cut them down to 2 or 3 feeds in the winter (those i'm not brumating)

re humidity
i'm lucky in that here in the UK,room humidity suits my Carpets perfectly,without any other husbandry input from me,all shed great

cheers shaun

[infernalis]

The thing is, MOST species need to have a proper humidity gradient.

There is so much more to keeping reptiles than just, "put it in this here glass cage, give it an XX degree hot spot, feed it this, and give it some water". Looking at your set ups, I know for a fact you know it is not as simple as that.

With the higher basking spot, a snakes digestive system and metabolism runs much more efficiently. This is a proven fact both on a scientific level and on the keeper level.

Also, hydrating a reptile and offering conditions so your reptile can MAINTAIN its moisture intake are two totally different things. Proper hydration and maintenance if that hydration is also very important to a reptiles digestive system.

I simplified what you said Gregg, hope you don't mind.


This husbandry information really should apply across the board for all reptiles.

in 2008 & 2010 I purchased a Cyclophiops Major, the "giant Asian green snake" A long slender and very beautiful animal from the Asian Rain forest.

Both snakes ate wonderfully, they SEEMED to be doing fantastic in my care, the first one died in a year, the second one died in 10 months.

My setup was a custom built tall cage with limbs to climb on, a water bowl, basking and bark chips at the bottom.

However I paid no attention to humidity, I was ignorant. I was sooooo proud of "how well" the snakes were doing, I probably would have shunned advice of anyone telling me to change.

Fact is (and it happened right here on this forum too) I was GIVING advice to other people to copy me. In retrospect, I feel badly for doing so now.

Sadly, these snakes were ripped from the trees in a tropical rain forest and shipped to America, and I placed them in a cage with New York humidity, little did I realize (at that time) that every breath those animals took was robbing them of precious body fluids.

*************************************************

Even the smallest North American colubrids will go underground when the conditions above are not favorable to their health.

Garter snakes, milk snakes, even the little Storeria snakes will go down burrows and holes during the winter, during droughts, and during the hottest parts of the day.

People in general will use all sorts of nonsensical logic as to why their animals "mysteriously" go belly up in their cages.

Without droning any further, I have to solidly agree, many people need to stop and think about husbandry, and make changes.

[shaunyboy]

Wayne,imo as long as we all share our mistakes,then everyone learns from them...

imo thats the good thing about this forum is,when you come on here and tell people about mistakes,mostly you get positive comments and a good discusion,on what ever the problem was

i'm lucky as UK room humidity suits Carpet Pythons just fine

imo we are all on a learning curve and imo each individual animal tells a different story/lesson,as long as we pay attention....

then all is good:)

cheers shaun

[Aaron_S]

Shaun,

I'd like to suggest finding a beta chip aspen. It's smaller pieces, comes in squares pretty much that are super tiny. I have found the best results with this product. I'll try to find it online as I usually just buy it from a pet store.

On newspaper, it works for some animals. Ball pythons is what I use it on. Works and since I use more than one sheet if they wish to hide then they'll go under the top piece. I use beta chip with my sand boas.

[Aaron_S]

IMHO, cypress is the way to go. Keeps it humid, smells rather nice (even when wet) and easy to spot clean =3

If you send me a PM I will show you pictures of a snake swallowing a piece and literally almost killing itself by spearing itself through the neck.

Unless it's chunks of coco-husk type of stuff I don't believe in it.

[iBaman]

ewww. No thanks >.< I watch my guys eat anyways...none of the chunks in the tanks are big enough, let alone strong enough to do that. but thanks =3

[shaunyboy]

Shaun,

I'd like to suggest finding a beta chip aspen. It's smaller pieces, comes in squares pretty much that are super tiny. I have found the best results with this product. I'll try to find it online as I usually just buy it from a pet store.

On newspaper, it works for some animals. Ball pythons is what I use it on. Works and since I use more than one sheet if they wish to hide then they'll go under the top piece. I use beta chip with my sand boas.

as far as i know,the only aspen available over here resembles,straw/hay out a farm yard barn

i can get beech,orchard bark,chips and a few other types,that i can't remember off the top of my head mate

to be honest i don't even notice the newspaper substrate anymore...

at first i thought it would look nasty and would be a bad focal point in the tank,but theres that much going on in the tank,that when you look in the newspaper does'nt register.....

unless theres a semi naked woman on any of the pages ;):D

i put the newspaper 8 sheets deep,that soaks everything up when an adult carpet drops a load on it,then you simply roll the whole lot up and replace it,the whole proccess only takes a few minutes,then you have a nice clean tank floor:D

cheers shaun

[Aaron_S]

ewww. No thanks >.< I watch my guys eat anyways...none of the chunks in the tanks are big enough, let alone strong enough to do that. but thanks =3

It wasn't a large piece. Rather small actually. Just turned the wrong way. I recommend the switch to coco-husk or at least take a look at the product.


Shaun, well that sucks about the various aspens. That's why I use newspaper as well. It does the job and a simple roll up works wonders. So much easier than aspen. With my tub set up I don't have humidity issues either.

[Kettennatter]

I'm somewhat divded on the issue. I use newspaper for snakes that don't burrow and/or have a high metabolism. It's just so much easier to clean and does not turn into a mite habitat quite as easily.

With other types of snakes that seem to enjoy burrowing, I feel I'd stress out the snake if I didn't use a loose substrate, such as aspen.

[ZStone]

I'm so sorry for your loss.