memory

[BryanB]

Do snakes have a good memory? I put my boa in the tub I got him in to feed him the last two nights and he seems to get scared and ball up in one corner. should I try to feed him else ware I have aspen in his tank and I don't want him to injest any of it.

[snake man12]

They have almost no memory only instinctual response to stimuli.

[BryanB]

so this makes all the train your snake to see you as a safe spot or anything else for that matter a bunch of crap. either a snake likes people or not.

[snake man12]

Pretty much yeah but they can gain a sort of ghost in the neurons that allows them to be tamed.

[jaleely]

I disagree. Even fish have memory and can be taught. That old "3 second memory like a goldfish" thing is a myth. I think it's a myth that snakes can't learn.
They are highly instinctual animals, but they can also recognize things, and learn habits.

[snake man12]

Fallacy, explain how a hatchling corn snake with a brain the size of a pencil point with 1/300 of the brain capacity of a chimpanzee could have a memory it's simply not possible.

[Terranaut]

Is instinct not pre programed memory? Got to be room for a little more... a buffer so to speak. I have no science to back it up but when I put my carpets into a strange place , they will crawl a few feet and then back onto me. I assume its a familiarity with my smell or look and I am a safety thing. Thats memory isn't it?

[Rogue628]

They also thought many years ago that we wouldn't be able to put 4G or more on a tiny little stick, but we did. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with brain size, but more or less how it's 'wired'.

I don't know the semantics, but I work with my animals on almost a daily basis and have been since I've had them, and they all seem to have the ability to learn something that wouldn't necessarily be instinct. Maybe it's just me attempting to make them seem more human, but IMO...depending upon how much you work with an animal....it can learn something. I also believe they have the capacity to learn things on their own, depending upon the stimuli and circumstances given. That could very well be a loose definition of a 'learned behavior' and most of us know a snake can have a learned behavior. And don't forget retics are considered one of the most intelligent snakes on the planet. Humans and other animals are not all created intellectually equal. Not all snakes are going to show the same level intelligence.

Just because noone has found an exact scientific method to prove their level of intelligence doesn't mean they're stupid or purely instinctual. We just haven't learned how to fully figure out just how intelligent these animals are.

To the OP, more than likely your animal doesn't feel safe in a feed enclosure. If they don't feel safe, they're not going to eat. Nor would they be just as willing to eat in a place that doesn't meet their husbandry requirements. Trying feeding him in his own enclosure. It's better for your pet in more ways than one. If you're worried about him eating this bedding, put his food on a small plate and offer it that way.

I used to feed outside their normal enclosure several years ago. I felt it was safer for the animal as well as other myths about feeding outside their home environment. But I've learned over the years that feeding them in their living enclosure is just as safe and far better for my animals. If you're worried about food aggression, I suggest feeding on one side and picking up from another. They do learn this, even if it's nothing more than a habit they learn to recognize and get used to.

[Wildside]

If they were purely instinctual then those of the same species would have the same personality and be incredibly predictable. All you would have to know to handle a snake is the behavioral traits of its species. Instead, they each have their own personality. While they may not start doing tricks any day soon they are certainly capable of coming to trust you, which requires a certain degree of memory retention.

[Kettennatter]

While they may not start doing tricks any day soon they are certainly capable of coming to trust you, which requires a certain degree of memory retention.

That's my thinking, also. While their mental light does not shine very brightly, snaks surely can be conditioned, so some capability for memory tetention has to be there.

[Trent]

They have almost no memory only instinctual response to stimuli.

That has to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read on here!

[MrBD1980]

That has to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read on here!

I second the motion!

[snake man12]

Excuse me?

[Jlassiter]

Call it memory or instinct but wild gravid colubrids will return to the same spot every year to lay eggs. Rattlesnakes in the wild find the same den every year to brumate.

They sure as heck remember what a prey scent is.
A rattlesnake remembers not to go near kingsnakes.

Call them instincts or memory but they are learned responses.

[moshirimon]

I'm pretty sure they do have memory. that's how they end up being hook trained, etc. some snakes strike at you when you open their enclosure because it reminds them of being fed. thats just my opinion, snakes do have memory.

[marvelfreak]

Snake remember trust me on this. I had a baby Retic that i had for two month's never once struck or bit. Then one day i dropped him on the floor. After that any time i got near him he strike or bite me. I got nailed in the nose three times by him. Anyone else could pick him up and handle him no problem as long as i wasn't in the room. So i finally found him a new home.

Ten years go by and i run into the guy i gave him to. He asked if i want to stop by and see him. Said he had never once struck or bit in the whole time he had him. As soon has i walked into his snake room it struck at the glass so hard in almost broke it. There's no doubt in my mind that dam snake remembered me.

[Hurrok]

That has to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read on here!

I would have to agree, considering it's obvious to any passionate pet owner, that their animal is awake. By that I mean yes, they have a conscience, they have a memory, and they definitely have feelings! Not even two years ago I got my first BP, and to date I would say there's a definite connection. For example... If I'm gone for 1, 2 or 3 weeks, upon my return his reaction is one of the most adorable things you could imagine a snake doing. There's excitement, cuddles, and even kisses! Every one of my BP's has developed their own unique persona, and are recognizable through certain traits. So for you (Snake Man12) to say they don't have a memory, and react purely based off natural instinct is ludicrous. Because that means every BP would/should react the same way to the same movement, every time. They don't. Which means...? ;)

[Terranaut]

That has to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read on here!

I'm trying to figure this one out :(


Pretty much yeah but they can gain a sort of ghost in the neurons that allows them to be tamed.

[snake man12]

I would have to agree, considering it's obvious to any passionate pet owner, that their animal is awake. By that I mean yes, they have a conscience, they have a memory, and they definitely have feelings! Not even two years ago I got my first BP, and to date I would say there's a definite connection. For example... If I'm gone for 1, 2 or 3 weeks, upon my return his reaction is one of the most adorable things you could imagine a snake doing. There's excitement, cuddles, and even kisses! Every one of my BP's has developed their own unique persona, and are recognizable through certain traits. So for you (Snake Man12) to say they don't have a memory, and react purely based off natural instinct is ludicrous. Because that means every BP would/should react the same way to the same movement, every time. They don't. Which means...? ;)

A snake can't feel emotion, a snake can't have a memory like us humans understand they simply can recognize certain attributes and react accordingly.

If you think my post was ludicrous please read the section of your post about you snake having "feelings".

[iBaman]

is anger or fear not an emotion?

[snake man12]

No it is not in the terms of a reptile. No matter what everybody says I will understand the truth!!

[iBaman]

I'm not saying they can love and all of that, I'm just saying that they have a RANGE of emotions, just maybe not as in depth as ours. But it IS emotion.

[snake man12]

Nope not emotion.
an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness. from Emotion | Define Emotion at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/emotion?s=t)

[iBaman]

two can play at that game.
Fear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear)

[snake man12]

I don't except wikipedia sources... Would you like me to edit that?

[snake man12]

Post reported.

[iBaman]

cool story, bro.

[snake man12]

Thanks......

[Ivalynfyre]

The 'I don't accept wikipedia sources' sounds just like some of my old teachers... And probably some of my future teachers!

Anyways, saying that they have no memory, no ability to feel emotions, etc, and only rely on pure instinct would mean that they all react the same to things because they all have the same instincts(within their species), but that's not true.

[snake man12]

No they act accordingly do the present stimuli. The reason I don't like wikipedia is anyone can edit those wiki's.

[Kaetlinv]

Ive been reading this and I'm rather confused about how to portray my opinion...


None of this is definite fact so please don't think i'm trying to be a know it all. It's an attempt to sort out my thoughts and possibly help this discussion become something more than a 'I'm right, you're wrong' fight.


While reptiles are not capable of complex thought / emotion, fear and anger are emotional responses whether they're caused by physical, audial, or visual stimuli.

Humans are not the only intelligent creature out there - while snakes are no where near matching us, their responses are the same as ours.

Our fear is caused by the same stimuli as any animal. Take away touch and we wouldn't be scared by something hitting us because we couldn't feel. Take away sight and we couldn't be scared of the things in front of us (say a fear of a spider or lightning) because we couldn't see it. Take away sound and the noises that scare us no longer apply.

This applies to all animals. Emotions appear to be response to stimuli, past or present.

Instinct is more about the fight or flight reaction that no one or thing can really control if it's pressing enough. Instinct is the reaction that is automatic - humans have little instinct now beyond fight or flight and the desire to reproduce.

Some animals are able to process their emotions and react to them accordingly, either accepting the fear or deciding to give what they're afraid of another chance. Snakes it seems, are able to feel fear, but not able to choose to push it aside. They learn purely by experience and if you ever hope to make them learn otherwise you'll be waiting a long time, and may never change them because that reaction is dead set.

So my opinion is that snakes specifically, do hold emotion but it is a black-and-white sort of emotion based off of individual events that have happened to them, and fear will always win out over the good if something bad were to happen to the snake.

So;
good events(tolerance / happiness) > instinct (tolerance / fear)
bad events(Fear / anger) > good events (tolerance / happiness)
Bad event responses become instinct.

Just how I see it.

[jaleely]

Reptiles have memory. It is not a ghost neuron or whatever. The word is "accept". Snakes can experience fear, comfort, relaxation, sexual desire...or sexual instinct, however, it is still a need and a desire that drives them.
Obviously some sort of enjoyment or pleasure or at least comfort, when they find a good basking spot, or they stay somewhere that feels safe.

They have brains. *shrug* nuff said.

Lobsters don't have brains. I've been diving and grabbed and poked at lobsters, and they even exhibit behaviors that are learned. Mostly instinct, however once they realize my fingers are not food, they do not crawl towards them again. So...learned behavior?
Anyway, point is brain=learning. Instinct is a drive that can be overcome, or expanded upon.

I taught our first bp that food was at the end of a pvc pipe.
we only fed her with the pipes, and only put food at the end...and always switched the configuration of the pipes.
That snake roared through those pipes until she go to the end and ate that food.
Why would she do it faster each time, unless she'd learned that at the end was what she wanted? Why would she go into the pipe to begin with? Instinct may tell her that it was a dark closed space, but why would she leave one comfortable dark space to enter the pipe? Why would she do that when we hadn't put the food at the end yet, and could't smell it?

not to mention someone else already stated how snakes have personality...it's based on their life experiences and what they've learned about how humans treat them.
Otherwise, each one would act the same every time to every stimuli.

And there's nothing wrong with wikipedia.

[Kaetlinv]

i like your explanation more than mine jaleely. :3

[jaleely]

hehe i'm good like that.
Actually i tend to ramble, a lot *lol* i'm also turning into one of those old people that tells animal stories all the time...like even though i know i'm making people uncomfortable, or they don't care, i keep talking...and talking...and talking...hehehe

[Kaetlinv]

I've learned to tone that down >.< I do it on accident every now and again still. Doesn't even have to be with animals. I do it with everything I know / have made >XD

[snake man12]

Reptiles have memory. It is not a ghost neuron or whatever. The word is "accept". Snakes can experience fear, comfort, relaxation, sexual desire...or sexual instinct, however, it is still a need and a desire that drives them.
Obviously some sort of enjoyment or pleasure or at least comfort, when they find a good basking spot, or they stay somewhere that feels safe.

They have brains. *shrug* nuff said.

Lobsters don't have brains. I've been diving and grabbed and poked at lobsters, and they even exhibit behaviors that are learned. Mostly instinct, however once they realize my fingers are not food, they do not crawl towards them again. So...learned behavior?
Anyway, point is brain=learning. Instinct is a drive that can be overcome, or expanded upon.

I taught our first bp that food was at the end of a pvc pipe.
we only fed her with the pipes, and only put food at the end...and always switched the configuration of the pipes.
That snake roared through those pipes until she go to the end and ate that food.
Why would she do it faster each time, unless she'd learned that at the end was what she wanted? Why would she go into the pipe to begin with? Instinct may tell her that it was a dark closed space, but why would she leave one comfortable dark space to enter the pipe? Why would she do that when we hadn't put the food at the end yet, and could't smell it?

not to mention someone else already stated how snakes have personality...it's based on their life experiences and what they've learned about how humans treat them.
Otherwise, each one would act the same every time to every stimuli.

And there's nothing wrong with wikipedia.

It's amazing how this fight is still going. She might have a better temperature gradient in the pipe.

Would you like me to edit something for you and make it false? Seriously just pick a topic you want falsified.

[infernalis]

And there's nothing wrong with wikipedia.

I refuse to participate in any other part of this.....

Wiki anything can be edited, contributed to or fabricated by ANYONE with a PC and internet connection.

Therefore, as I have warned on this forum and many others before, I can log into wikipedia and say I'm batman, and until someone else edits it, it will stay there.

Never place 100% blind trust in a wiki.

[Lankyrob]

Wiki CAN be a good starting point for research but i would never trust anything on there without double and triple checking it elsewhere first :)

[infernalis]

Wiki CAN be a good starting point for research but i would never trust anything on there without double and triple checking it elsewhere first :)

exactly Rob.. I joined wikipedia so I could correct some of the false entries.

[Jay]

Wow this not a good thread, so much miss information!!

No matter how bad you want your snake to act like a mammal it WILL not, no memory, no compassion, no trust, it is simply impossible.

[Jay]

Reptiles have memory. It is not a ghost neuron or whatever. The word is "accept". Snakes can experience fear, comfort, relaxation, sexual desire...or sexual instinct, however, it is still a need and a desire that drives them.
Obviously some sort of enjoyment or pleasure or at least comfort, when they find a good basking spot, or they stay somewhere that feels safe.

They have brains. *shrug* nuff said.

Lobsters don't have brains. I've been diving and grabbed and poked at lobsters, and they even exhibit behaviors that are learned. Mostly instinct, however once they realize my fingers are not food, they do not crawl towards them again. So...learned behavior?
Anyway, point is brain=learning. Instinct is a drive that can be overcome, or expanded upon.

I taught our first bp that food was at the end of a pvc pipe.
we only fed her with the pipes, and only put food at the end...and always switched the configuration of the pipes.
That snake roared through those pipes until she go to the end and ate that food.
Why would she do it faster each time, unless she'd learned that at the end was what she wanted? Why would she go into the pipe to begin with? Instinct may tell her that it was a dark closed space, but why would she leave one comfortable dark space to enter the pipe? Why would she do that when we hadn't put the food at the end yet, and could't smell it?

not to mention someone else already stated how snakes have personality...it's based on their life experiences and what they've learned about how humans treat them.
Otherwise, each one would act the same every time to every stimuli.

And there's nothing wrong with wikipedia.



Judging from your post, you do a lot of your research on Wikipedia. Not good:no:

[Wildside]

Wow this not a good thread, so much miss information!!

No matter how bad you want your snake to act like a mammal it WILL not, no memory, no compassion, no trust, it is simply impossible.

Do you not handle your snakes?

[Jay]

Only as needed.

As much as everyone hates to hear it, handling can lead to stress.
Since 85% of us keep snakes for our pleasure anyways, what's the fun of having one if you don't touch it. lol

Yet when I do handle some are nippy, some flee and some couldn't give a damn.
When I'd do water cages in my jcp cage he would always come out and climb my arm, you would have to be a fool to believe he was showing affection.

[Wildside]

Only as needed.

As much as everyone hates to hear it, handling can lead to stress.
Since 85% of us keep snakes for our pleasure anyways, what's the fun of having one if you don't touch it. lol

Yet when I do handle some are nippy, some flee and some couldn't give a damn.
When I'd do water cages in my jcp cage he would always come out and climb my arm, you would have to be a fool to believe he was showing affection.

I don't believe he was showing affection and I agree with everything else you said in this post. But, is it not valid to assume that a snake, take your jcp for example, trusts you enough not to eat him?

[infernalis]

Do you not handle your snakes?

I know the question was directed at Jay, so I shall interject for a moment.

My snakes are observation animals, and seldom get touched. Many of them I have to tong feed them, and if I need to take them out, I have to make sure they have a mouse in their mouth before I reach in, or i will get tagged.

And, no they are not hots, Just plain colubrids.

Never seen anything wrong with admiring them through the glass.

[Jay]

I don't believe he was showing affection and I agree with everything else you said in this post. But, is it not valid to assume that a snake, take your jcp for example, trusts you enough not to eat him?

Exactly an "assumption"

[infernalis]

now I do believe snakes associate their keepers with getting fed.

[Wildside]

I know the question was directed at Jay, so I shall interject for a moment.

My snakes are observation animals, and seldom get touched. Many of them I have to tong feed them, and if I need to take them out, I have to make sure they have a mouse in their mouth before I reach in, or i will get tagged.

And, no they are not hots, Just plain colubrids.

Never seen anything wrong with admiring them through the glass.

I am on both sides of this argument. I think the whole issue is very grey. I do not believe snakes are affectionate or love me or are the least bit happy that I'm keeping them in a cage rather than allowing them to roam free in their natural habitat. But, on the flip side, I'm not exactly sure how much they care about being in a cage either when all their needs are met at even greater odds than they might be in the wild.

All I'm saying is it's very possible that your snake remembers you didn't pose a threat last time you touched him. Case in point, Jay's JCP remembers that he is a cool tree to climb around on.

[Wildside]

Exactly an "assumption"

An assumption with evidence to support it.

[Pareeeee]

Snakes do have memory - how else could they be tamed? By learning and remembering. How do they remember that the feeding tongs represent food? Something that they would not see in the wild? MEMORY.

[Jay]

I am on both sides of this argument. I think the whole issue is very grey. I do not believe snakes are affectionate or love me or are the least bit happy that I'm keeping them in a cage rather than allowing them to roam free in their natural habitat. But, on the flip side, I'm not exactly sure how much they care about being in a cage either when all their needs are met at even greater odds than they might be in the wild.

All I'm saying is it's very possible that your snake remembers you didn't pose a threat last time you touched him. Case in point, Jay's JCP remembers that he is a cool tree to climb around on.

Logical reasoning.

[Jay]

Snakes do have memory - how else could they be tamed? By learning and remembering. How do they remember that the feeding tongs represent food? Something that they would not see in the wild and certainly would not be in their instinct? MEMORY.

Oh boy, you certainly cannot and will not ever tame a snake. Some snakes are just more tolerable to humans then others. My atb can be a total lunatic one day and the next day he lets me in his cage to sot clean.

[infernalis]

Try this experiment (In jest, don't do it)

Place your snake, regardless of species on the ground during a nice warm sunny day, turn your back for a few moments.

Now when you turn around, did your "buddy" stay put? did he even look back at you as he slithered away?

[Wildside]

Every ATB I've ever met was a total lunatic ~just sayin'

[Pareeeee]

Oh boy, you certainly cannot and will not ever tame a snake. Some snakes are just more tolerable to humans then others. My atb can be a total lunatic one day and the next day he lets me in his cage to sot clean.

They start out as aggressive, scared hatchlings and learn not to be afraid of us through the process of taming. I know this because my first snake when I was a kid was a wild-caught Red-belly Snake, which quickly learned not to be afraid of me and actually ate food straight from my hand.

Not saying they lose their wild-animal instincts, but they do remember things.

[Jay]

They start out as aggressive, scared hatchlings and learn not to be afraid of us through the process of taming. I know this because my first snake when I was a kid was a wild-caught Red-belly Snake, which quickly learned not to be afraid of me and actually ate food straight from my hand.

Not saying they lose their wild-animal instincts, but they do remember things.

Is that so...
Believe what you want. This form is more of a social network, filled with a bunch of people who think they know what they're talking about.

SNAKES DO NOT TAME.

I bought a snake off a member here who told me she was VERY aggressive. I haven't noticed the slightest bit of aggression, yet.

[Pareeeee]

I'm not saying that they like us or enjoy our company, but they get used to us and learn not to fear us. This displays memory ability. Same with recognition of tongs. Conditioning. Memory.

[Jay]

I'm not saying that they like us or enjoy our company, but they get used to us and learn not to fear us. This displays memory ability. Same with recognition of tongs. Conditioning. Memory.

I too like getting info of the net. The only difference is I dont preach it unless I've witnessed it.

Tell me, where do you get your info from?

[Pareeeee]

From owning my snakes and watching them. Seeing other people and their snakes. I have not read anything off the net, this is just from personal experience.

Nice how rude you are. Everyone enjoys rude people. Thanks for that.

[Jay]

Glad I could help.

[Kaetlinv]

Try this experiment (In jest, don't do it)

Place your snake, regardless of species on the ground during a nice warm sunny day, turn your back for a few moments.

Now when you turn around, did your "buddy" stay put? did he even look back at you as he slithered away?



The snake would escape, because that's what instinct would tell it to do.

People keep mentioning snakes' ability for affection... I think the only affection snakes have is for each other - and from what I've read here on the forum that's only a few species that cannot be housed alone.

Snakes tolerate us - however they're more willing to tolerate something that hasn't hurt it. If you've treated your snake fair and healthy and shown it that if it tolerates you it stays warm, humid, and full - then likely it isn't going to maliciously strike at something that keeps it in prime condition unless something changes to cause that snake to now fear what once kept it safe.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I believe snakes have BASE memory, purely for their own survival and reproduction. They're not like cats or dogs where you can scold them for doing something wrong and eventually they'll learn, or teach them tricks. That much is obvious, as the snakes in most cases would rather be left alone. The snake will tolerate the handling because it gets to really stretch out and roam outside of it's enclosure....i know my BP's prefer to be out of their tank not because they enjoy being handled, but because they get to experience new textures, sights, smells and discover the world. I love my BP, she does not love me.

i'm somewhat in the middle of this whole idea... Like I've stated- I believe they have base memory purely for survival. Adaptation in an animal that has mutated or deviated from the 'normal'. In the wild, if the 'natural' mutation is beneficial it will attempt to survive, and if it does it might become a normal event in the species rather than a mutation. Memory is an adaptation - if humans had no memory and the ability for intelligence we wouldn't be the top species on the planet...Likewise, something without memory wouldn't remember that ____ is bad for them or ____ is good for them and they might eventually perish.

Take all this with a grain of salt please... Like my last post. not trying to argue. The discussion is making me ponder the concept is all.

[marvelfreak]

I think what I'm trying to say is that I believe snakes have BASE memory, purely for their own survival and reproduction.


I so agree.

[jaleely]

oh goodness.
Yes, i look at wiki. Then i take the time to follow that lead and look more. Many, many times the infrmation was correct, or it helped lead me to something that was more in depth.
I don't take anything on the internet as 100% fact. I also own a lot of books, and I have even called breeders and vets to help me sometimes.
I'm just saying, jeez. Everyone's acting all high and mighty.

Animals learn. I'm using personal experience with reptiles, amphibians, mamals, fish, etc. to support this theory. Yes theory until i work for a government program and get it published as fact and all that and start my own website considered as a reliable source *rolls eyes*

Your snake doesn't care about you, no. But your snake can learn and retain memories that trigger instincts.

You can't tell me people who own savs and other things don't think their reptile can learn.
it's not learning to love, no, but it knows fear, and it knows when it's safe. It knows repetition and what to expect when things happen. Same with snakes.

Let me ask everyone this...do snakes exhibit curiosity?

[MrBD1980]

Ok....

OP: I agree with most others that snakes do in fact have memory...when considering a response to the question i defined memory as 'persistant modification of behavior resulting from an animal's experience' which I must say seems to marry with almost all discussions throughout the forum from the 'my retic will strike at the glass if he sees the feed plate even when there is no food' through to the 'how to hook train a snake'...

Jay: where is the evidence which irrefutably proves the lack of memory capacity?

I understand my supporting considerations may be seen as anecdotal however I feel they are solid enough for an opinion base. I am however, as we all should be, open to considering any info for a counterposition.....

Brian

[jarich]

I, too, would like to know where the evidence is that snakes cannot possibly have memory, Jay and Snakeman? Because I think that neither of you have any at all. Simply because you think it, doesnt make it fact. I agree Wikipedia isnt anywhere to get proof of anything, but where are your sources?

Snakes, and by snakes I mean many species, have behavioural plasticity. What that means is that they are able to learn based on experience. Instinct does not explain that, however memory does. Snakes studied in the wild have spatial recognition, hunting patterns, and mate orientation. These are all signs of learning and memory. This is also seen in both small snakes like garters, as well as large snakes like pythons. So where is your conclusive proof that snakes cant possibly have memory?

Now this isnt to say that I agree with those stating that their snakes feel any kind of emotional attachments or feelings. I think thats a pretty good example of anthropomorphizing our pets.

[snake man12]

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??

[Ivalynfyre]

A larger brain doesn't necessarily mean higher intelligence.. if it did, wouldn't elephants and blue whales and such be more intelligent than humans?

[jarich]

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??

Mostly because you're wrong. But let's say it's because you havent given any evidence for your claims. You just keep repeating that it's not possible. That doesn't make it true.

[Jay]

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??

They're lacking the brain capacity, my reptiles seem smart compartment to most involved in this thread.

[Kaetlinv]

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??


because not all memory is rational, and in the case of snakes I don't believe they are rational. They learn once and that's what they know and that's what they stick to unless something happens that nullifies that now instinctual fear.

Take my ball python valentine.... she's only ever struck at me once, and never bit me. I handle her frequently and she's very mild tempered because of it. If one day I were to accidentally hurt her she would be very afraid of me and likely never stop being afraid of me / being hostile to me. Like the previously example given with the baby reticulated python that Marvelfreak had.

[snake man12]

A larger brain doesn't necessarily mean higher intelligence.. if it did, wouldn't elephants and blue whales and such be more intelligent than humans?

Hah I did not say brain size I said brain capacity there's a big difference there. No memory get it through your heads!!

[snake man12]

because not all memory is rational, and in the case of snakes I don't believe they are rational. They learn once and that's what they know and that's what they stick to unless something happens that nullifies that now instinctual fear.

Take my ball python valentine.... she's only ever struck at me once, and never bit me. I handle her frequently and she's very mild tempered because of it. If one day I were to accidentally hurt her she would be very afraid of me and likely never stop being afraid of me / being hostile to me. Like the previously example given with the baby reticulated python that Marvelfreak had.

The fact of whether or not the so called memory is rational or not does not matter in this discussion.

[Kaetlinv]

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??


The fact of whether or not the so called memory is rational or not does not matter in this discussion.


um... then why did you say they don't have the capacity for it if it's not important? You're the one saying they have absolutely no memory, then claimed they don't have the capacity for cognitive / rational memory or thinking and then say it doesn't matter in the discussion?

Honestly i'm just confused. Why use it in an argument if you don't consider it relevant?

[snake man12]

If you think they have memory it would not matter if it was rational or not.
This a one sided argument and I am the one side.

[Kaetlinv]

Actually, as I've said before, I believe they have base memory, the minimum amount needed to survive and breed.

It isn't a one sided argument. I believe there are many sides and many of those have been addressed and you're being stubborn and think what you know is correct.

Have you tried proving your belief? I haven't - that's why I'm only sharing speculations, not proclaiming my information to be the only correct information and no one else can have any speck of truth.

Have you gone to the lengths to disprove any amount of intelligence in serpents?

Have you gone through the effort of testing several hundred snakes to prove that a species or a group of species has / doesn't have intelligence?

Have you taken the time to raise a snake several dozen ways and see how each responds to a situation differently based on how and where it was raised?

How do you know that your assumptions are correct with no apparent first-hand source of information?

[snake man12]

I never assume any thing. I have biology text books you can read if you want me to send some to you to glance over? Have you taken courses in bio zoology?
Think about this, an amoeba a sing celled organism, how does it know how to preform biological fission? I know, they have base memory also known as insticts.

[Kaetlinv]

Taking courses in bio zoology doesn't make you an expert at everything, for there is always more to be learned.

I haven't taken those courses, i'm 18, and am just getting into college.
This doesn't make me clueless.

Until you show me clear, detailed evidence saying snakes have absolutely nothing other than instinct based off of experimental tests on behaviorism, I stand by my speculations.

Instinct can only take an animal so far.
Can instinct be the sole cause for stress, fear, hostility, or tolerance?

Just today at an expo i saw several hundred snakes, amongst those several dozen columbian boas, adult and hatchling. Of all of those, only one of them looked any different from the rest due to stress and the high activity around it. It was the sole snake who was actually getting stressed to the point of hostility, constantly hissing and when it couldn't hiss anymore the little hatchling sat there with it's mouth agape and looking threatening in defense. it watched me, and while I talked to the owner about it I moved my fingers over his container - i didn't touch or bang on it, that would've been stupid - and his eyes were very clearly following me and the closer my hand was the more irritated he seemed and the wider his gape became.

Tell me, if instinct told every snake to do every thing the same, why would some snakes react differently in a heavy crowd? Why would some snakes be able to be held while others couldn't?

Instinct, I believe, is the little 'voice' in our heads that tells us to do things and we cannot help but doing them. This instinct is virtually the same within every species - and only certain conditions would block these instinctual messages (for instance in humans, the desire to copulate being blocked by a tumor in the area of the brain that controls sexual urges).

If snakes lived purely on instinct they would be on a lower level than many insects....And their brains are, literally, microscopic if they have one.

[Pareeeee]

They're lacking the brain capacity, my reptiles seem smart compartment to most involved in this thread.

I thought name calling and bashing was against forum rules...

[Jay]

I thought name calling and bashing was against forum rules...

What name calling?

[Jay]

columbian boas
Colombian boa.

[iBaman]

...you don't have to go all grammar nazi to make yourself seem smart ;P

[snake man12]

I am really tired of arguing the same point over and over again can we please just agree to disagree. And btw if it's not to late for you take a class in bio-zoo and learn a little about brain structure and purpose. Now is everybody done here?

[Kaetlinv]

Colombian boa.

my mistake, haha. Automatic spelling. my mom lives in columbia county oregon with her boyfriend, so I write columbian not colombian >.>


Snakeman12 - I wasn't trying to get you to change your mind, I swear. :) I said it before in this thread - I was stirred into deep thought and pondering and was sharing. you're entitled to believe what you want - as am I. As for taking the bio-zoology classes... Unfortunately i'm an Art fart, and while I'm curious beyond belief with animals and what makes them function, I plan to become a concept designer (as in games and movies, comics, books. :) )

[Jay]

...you don't have to go all grammar nazi to make yourself seem smart ;P

You don't have to go all defensive, because you sound dumb. :D

[Jay]

my mistake, haha. Automatic spelling. my mom lives in columbia county oregon with her boyfriend, so I write columbian not colombian >.>


Snakeman12 - I wasn't trying to get you to change your mind, I swear. :) I said it before in this thread - I was stirred into deep thought and pondering and was sharing. you're entitled to believe what you want - as am I. As for taking the bio-zoology classes... Unfortunately i'm an Art fart, and while I'm curious beyond belief with animals and what makes them function, I plan to become a concept designer (as in games and movies, comics, books. :) )

No problem auto correct is a pain. I like how you didn't take ofence ;)

[snake man12]

That's a great career choice. When I was 18 I wanted to become a graphic designer but that didn't pan out so I took bio, pre-med, and bio-zoo and 4 years got me no where[ shrugs]

[Kaetlinv]

No problem auto correct is a pain. I like how you didn't take ofence ;)

Well i knew I was wrong and it's not something to throw a fit over. i try and be accurate with spelling - the reason i'm not a nazi with it is because I don't have a colombian, haha. If I had one I assure you I would be correcting folk just as much as you do. I like knowing my stuff. :3 I often annoy my family to their wits end with how much I talk about BP's... Went today with my older half sister and she was amazed at how many species I knew, and I still have nothing on most of the 'veterans' here >XD


I love working with animals - that will be my back up if my concept work falls through and can't land a job for my designs. I love studying animals - a lot of the 'species' I create for worlds have real advantages and faults based off of animals we have. Anatomy is inspired by real animals to, despite the 'magical' qualities they have.

Make the unbelievable believable. :)

[iBaman]

You don't have to go all defensive, because you sound dumb. :D

...my snake is bigger ;D bahahhaah. I was really just messing with you, btw. dunno if you caught the sarcasm or not. hard to portray over the interwebs.

[jarich]

That's a great career choice. When I was 18 I wanted to become a graphic designer but that didn't pan out so I took bio, pre-med, and bio-zoo and 4 years got me no where[ shrugs]

Shocking given your understanding of neurobiology.

[jaleely]

jarich, after 16 years on the internet you're the most well spoken and well written person i've ever read! I always enjoy when you post.

Kaetlinv you too, are doing a great job of taking the high road consistently. I think that's really awesome.

ibaman you're on my good list too...hehe plus i thought baman an piderman was pretty cute.

[iBaman]

daw, thanks jaleely =] I love baman piderman...it's so dumb it's funny xD

[Jay]

...my snake is bigger ;D bahahhaah. I was really just messing with you, btw. dunno if you caught the sarcasm or not. hard to portray over the interwebs.

I know xD, sorry.

[jarich]

jarich, after 16 years on the internet you're the most well spoken and well written person i've ever read! I always enjoy when you post.

Kaetlinv you too, are doing a great job of taking the high road consistently. I think that's really awesome.

ibaman you're on my good list too...hehe plus i thought baman an piderman was pretty cute.

Thanks Melissa, though I had a much less composed message before realizing the thread had just degraded into a couple of trolls throwing around sarcasm. Which is a shame, as this could have been an interesting discussion. Oh well, thats the internet sometimes. ;)

[snake man12]

Shocking given your understanding of neurobiology.

Really what happened was I lost interest in bio and med and I couldn't handle having a career [even if it was a good one] that I could not stand to be in.
[shrugs]

[Kaetlinv]

jarich, after 16 years on the internet you're the most well spoken and well written person i've ever read! I always enjoy when you post.

Kaetlinv you too, are doing a great job of taking the high road consistently. I think that's really awesome.

ibaman you're on my good list too...hehe plus i thought baman an piderman was pretty cute.

Well. Ive been on the internet for much longer than i ever shouldve been (yay 9 year old on a computer!!) And ive had my fair share of social games on said internet. While im not the most eloquent person out there, i certainly try to speak clearly and (as well informed as i can) intelligently. All of this being brewed from the sheer stupidity of some adults and young kids both on those games. I was mistaken on a regular basis for being two, sometimes three times older than i actually was. >.>

[BryanB]

Well I have enjoyed reading every ones OPINIONS about snakes having memory or not. I never expected it to be a 7 page debate but hey a lot of good thoughts as to why people think yes or no. As for me I believe they have capability to see patterns (feeding place-times for example) and basic survival "thought" as in "I am cold I will go bask in the heat" and "have not bean harmed by people before their fore i will tolerate them"

[allenj3210]

On the issue of snake memory and conditioning, I believe that an animal must have some form of cognitive skills, albeit simple ones. I believe that it is quite possible for them to adapt to certain stimulus over time and frequency. For example feeding tongs= food. But as others have mentioned the notion that these creatures are mostly instinctually based seems a little troubling. I think that these animals are hardwired for survival and will do what ever it takes to survive to their environment. If that takes pattern recognition then that's what they will do.

[moshirimon]

On the issue of snake memory and conditioning, I believe that an animal must have some form of cognitive skills, albeit simple ones. I believe that it is quite possible for them to adapt to certain stimulus over time and frequency. For example feeding tongs= food. But as others have mentioned the notion that these creatures are mostly instinctually based seems a little troubling. I think that these animals are hardwired for survival and will do what ever it takes to survive to their environment. If that takes pattern recognition then that's what they will do.


Well said.

[Pareeeee]

On the issue of snake memory and conditioning, I believe that an animal must have some form of cognitive skills, albeit simple ones. I believe that it is quite possible for them to adapt to certain stimulus over time and frequency. For example feeding tongs= food. But as others have mentioned the notion that these creatures are mostly instinctually based seems a little troubling. I think that these animals are hardwired for survival and will do what ever it takes to survive to their environment. If that takes pattern recognition then that's what they will do.

Very true.

[jarich]

And while we are at it, let me throw in a hypothesis I have in regards to this thread.

Im not a fan of rack systems for snakes, mostly because I like to have more room for them and I like to be able to see them. I do also think its a limiting factor in their development though. Without the ability to see out of the tubs, interact with the world outside their enclosure, or have any challenges/stresses at all, they have zero stimulus in their environment. Therefore the parts of their brain that would normally be involved in reactionary and adaptative processes are selected against. The brain is an expensive organ in any animal, so if its not being used, it gets culled at an early stage of development. Essentially, I think that its possible that by raising these snakes in opaque smalls tubs, they physiologically become unable to deal with new stresses and situations because as adults their brains are simply not adapted to. Again, its just a hypothesis, but Id love to hear your thoughts on it.

[Wildside]

And while we are at it, let me throw in a hypothesis I have in regards to this thread.

Im not a fan of rack systems for snakes, mostly because I like to have more room for them and I like to be able to see them. I do also think its a limiting factor in their development though. Without the ability to see out of the tubs, interact with the world outside their enclosure, or have any challenges/stresses at all, they have zero stimulus in their environment. Therefore the parts of their brain that would normally be involved in reactionary and adaptative processes are selected against. The brain is an expensive organ in any animal, so if its not being used, it gets culled at an early stage of development. Essentially, I think that its possible that by raising these snakes in opaque smalls tubs, they physiologically become unable to deal with new stresses and situations because as adults their brains are simply not adapted to. Again, its just a hypothesis, but Id love to hear your thoughts on it.

I disagree. I've known a few snakes that were raised in "an environment" and were then happier once moved into a tub. It's like they have their own little space to protect and that's where they want to be. I can't say that I blame them. Being an instinctive/reclusive animal myself I'd be thrilled if I got to sit all safe in my little space and have all my needs catered to, with little threat from a predator and possibly a mate to breed when the need arose. :D

[shaunyboy]

They have almost no memory only instinctual response to stimuli.

i disagree.....

when a snake finds the means of escaping its enclosure,it will go right back to it the next night,if you have NOT blocked its escape route

the above has been my personal experience with carpets

does this not show memory of where the escape route is

the above is just my thinking on your post mate

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

And while we are at it, let me throw in a hypothesis I have in regards to this thread.

Im not a fan of rack systems for snakes, mostly because I like to have more room for them and I like to be able to see them. I do also think its a limiting factor in their development though. Without the ability to see out of the tubs, interact with the world outside their enclosure, or have any challenges/stresses at all, they have zero stimulus in their environment. Therefore the parts of their brain that would normally be involved in reactionary and adaptative processes are selected against. The brain is an expensive organ in any animal, so if its not being used, it gets culled at an early stage of development. Essentially, I think that its possible that by raising these snakes in opaque smalls tubs, they physiologically become unable to deal with new stresses and situations because as adults their brains are simply not adapted to. Again, its just a hypothesis, but Id love to hear your thoughts on it.

i hear what your saying mate

if you raised a hatchling straight out the egg in the rack you describe,then.....

as an adult put it in say a vision cage with a glass front,would its new ability to see the outside world stress it out ?

i'm thinking it would be stressed,but... (but i'm applying a human thought process i suppose,so a snake may well not give a crap)

until someone conducts an experiment,i'm thinking we'll never know

great point to bring up though mate

cheers shaun

[jarich]

Ya, totally just a thought I wanted to see others opinions on. I dont think it would affect things much on adults but straight from the egg might.

[shaunyboy]

Ya, totally just a thought I wanted to see others opinions on. I dont think it would affect things much on adults but straight from the egg might.

i rescued a Jungle Carpet once.....

the guy had kept it in,a carboard shoe box with it's lid on,so the Jungle was ALWAYS in the dark 24/7.....

the guy ONLY opened the box QUICKLY,to fling a prey item inside the shoe box...

this Jungle was the MOST defensive biter i've EVER come across,we called him Mad Bert,he was like a bloody machine gun,just struck out at ALL signs of movement

i tried working with him for over a year and he NEVER calmed down one bit

so maybe it turns them into nervous,defensive biters ?

cheers shaun

[Evolieno]

It's been interesting reading this thread, but I must say I respect snakes more because there is no proof for a lot of things with snakes. Of course I would like my snake to remember my scent, or that when she hears me say her name, she understands and she knows it's me(her caretaker that has never harmed her) Instead of a predator. However, all of this is debatable and questionable. I will keep respecting snakes for the simple fact that they are magnificent creatures and are not 100% explainable. Just my thoughts...

[Wildside]

i rescued a Jungle Carpet once.....

the guy had kept it in,a carboard shoe box with it's lid on,so the Jungle was ALWAYS in the dark 24/7.....

the guy ONLY opened the box QUICKLY,to fling a prey item inside the shoe box...

this Jungle was the MOST defensive biter i've EVER come across,we called him Mad Bert,he was like a bloody machine gun,just struck out at ALL signs of movement

i tried working with him for over a year and he NEVER calmed down one bit

so maybe it turns them into nervous,defensive biters ?

cheers shaun


This right here blows the purely instinctive theory out of the water. That snake clearly had issues directly relating to the world it was exposed to.

[jaleely]

I agree with the enclosure thing. I can only go off of my experience with 18 snakes, (7-8 species i think).

I have an 11 year old ball python that has had an unknown lifestyle. He took a year to get used to us and to the movement in our house. He is now comfortable and comes out and cruises ALL around his 60 tank.
(Side note, i use mostly tanks with mesh lids! However the humididty in my house is very high compared to most. With our many fish tanks, and the general humidity in the area near the beach)

I have a "baby" (she's five feet long now lol) carpet that we kept in the living room, who would hide a lot. I felt she was stressed. I moved her upstairs, and she still hid a lot. I upped the heat, and she came out more...but dried out more. Was still jittery. I moved her to an almost clear tub with lid (64 quarts, i think?) with some drilled holes. She is now out all the time, and loves the tub. She has become calmer, though still doesn't really like being handled.
She is the ONLY one who likes the tubs.
I periodically put some ball pythons in tubs and not only did their behavior change, they constantly tried to get out when i'd come into the room. I put them back into tanks and now they stretch out, lounge on branches, and stare at me arrogantly.

hognoses...my two hoggies have only ever been around me and my husband for the past year. I had a friend from out of town visit, who likes snakes and various animals. I took her into the snake room, and EVERY SINGLE snake acted weird and flighty when i passed them to her. The hogneses actually became defensive, hissing, flaring out their heads, and tried to get away.

I opened the cages the same, i did everything the same as i always do, but as soon as i brought a snake out and showed it to her, the snake freaked. There was only one snake (my male dumeril's boa) who did not react to her presence.
Other than him, i strongly felt that the snakes could recognize that they didn't know her.

That dumeri's boa is mental though. He was a hatchling then hybernated for a year before only now starting to eat again. His manerisims are odd compared to my female, and the other species of snakes, as well.

Anyway, agreed that a snake will remember the escape route.
Agreed that i think they act differently in vivs, vs racks or tubs.
I even think they recognize people.
Some do a better job at that than others, and i think it is the environment they are kept in that lets them exercise their brains.

Its' funny, whenever i take one of the tanks and clean it out, a lot of times i just put the stuff right back where it was. The snake goes in and wiggles around, and that's it.
EVERY single time, however, that i add something new, or switch up the branches and stuff, each snake goes exploring. It's very fun to watch.
I feel very sorry for the rack snakes, just because i have seen this curious and interested nature in the snakes i own.

[Evolieno]

Melissa, I love what you said. In my personal opinion I do feel like my Coastal knows me. Perhaps she likes my scent, or actually remembers it and associates that positivity. When I first got her I was in a relationship and if he ever held Serophina, she always seemed to find her way back to me and it seemed like she preferred to be handled by me. I've heard certain people say snakes can hear in stereo, and I've never done research or anything, but I do think it would be awesome if Sero could hear my voice enough to recognize that it's me. Who knows! My relationship with her is still growing as I haven't had her too long.

[jaleely]

I know my carpet bites my husband, becuase he hesitates when he picks her up. she doesn't bite me anymore. I do really think she knows i won't put up with it. She knows she can bluff him and "bump" strike him, whereas i just grab her anyway, she doesn't even try lol

Thought it was pretty funny both hoggies hissed at my friend though

[Evolieno]

I really think they know the difference between a stranger and their owner. Or maybe they could smell fear? Either way, I think there's more to snakes than we really know. Wish I could prove it, but I am no scientist! Sero has only bumped me once just a few days ago. It was my fault though, I touched her after she ate a jumbo rat... An this was the biggest rat that I've ever personally fed her. I apologized to her(lol) but I think she knew it was me and she was just telling me she wasn't done with her process yet. After reading some of the threads on here, I'm starting to think I need to feed her in her enclosure. She's just so big and I think it's more stressful if I have to move her back to her enclosure after feeding. Correct me if I'm wrong(please). Whether she hears me or not, I talk to her all the time. Say hello when I walk in the door and goodbye when I leave. A few times she has actually turned toward me when I talk to her

[shaunyboy]

This right here blows the purely instinctive theory out of the water. That snake clearly had issues directly relating to the world it was exposed to.

he was the craziest mother*****r of a carpet i've ever dealt with

he was quite a charectuer :D old crazy bert :D

i put his defensive agression down to how he had been kept;)

that said,from my own experience and what i've read,its seems it's mostly jungle hatchlings,that are the most defensive strikers of the bunch ( carpet sub species hatchlings in general),but most settle down with handling

crazy bert was a whole different machine imo though

even as adult he was vicious (i sold him to a guy who wanted him for a breeding project)

i suppose it would be a little cruel to do an experiment on say 4 hatchling carpets.....

1.keep the first 2 straight out the egg,in a blacked out enclosure

2.keep the other 2 hatchlings as you normally would

wait for time to pass,then see how the first 2 hatchlings turn out as adults

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

I really think they know the difference between a stranger and their owner. Or maybe they could smell fear? Either way, I think there's more to snakes than we really know. Wish I could prove it, but I am no scientist! Sero has only bumped me once just a few days ago. It was my fault though, I touched her after she ate a jumbo rat... An this was the biggest rat that I've ever personally fed her. I apologized to her(lol) but I think she knew it was me and she was just telling me she wasn't done with her process yet. After reading some of the threads on here, I'm starting to think I need to feed her in her enclosure. She's just so big and I think it's more stressful if I have to move her back to her enclosure after feeding. Correct me if I'm wrong(please). Whether she hears me or not, I talk to her all the time. Say hello when I walk in the door and goodbye when I leave. A few times she has actually turned toward me when I talk to her

snakes cannot hear.....

as far as i know they have nothing that resembles ears

imo its always best to feed a snake in its tank,to avoid any stress when moving them,before and after feeding

cheers shaun

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

Try this experiment (In jest, don't do it)

Place your snake, regardless of species on the ground during a nice warm sunny day, turn your back for a few moments.

Now when you turn around, did your "buddy" stay put? did he even look back at you as he slithered away?

^^^^^
so you cannot train them to retrieve sticks that you throw :shocked:

i thought after all the millions of years they've been around,they'd pick up a few tricks :laugh:

i am of the belief that snakes run purely on INSTINCT ;)

but do have memory (hope that all makes sense ? )

cheers shaun

[Evolieno]

Shaunyboy- it's just wishful thinking on my part. I talk to my cats, too. (no, they haven't talked back, yet! Lol) there isn't 100% proof about a snakes hearing as I have read the article about snakes hearing in stereo. But, I'm not too worried about it, and I will still always talk to her. Also, when I purchased her I was told to feed her in a plastic bin or somewhere other than her enclosure so she wouldn't associate my hand in her home as food. I have read a lot of threads on here and I have read that it's best to feed in an enclosure, especially with Sero being 9-10ft (which is what I was told when I purchased her- haven't measured her myself yet) and moving such a good sized snake back into her enclosure after feeding is too stressful for her. Now I have proof since she bumped me the last time I tried to move her. No matter what, I want to make her as comfortable as possible and be respectful of her. I was told her previous owner handled her often, and she never showed aggression from the reptile shop I got her. I want to make sure she stays docile and that we can respect each other and she can tolerate me. She's too amazing NOT to do right by!

[shaunyboy]

Shaunyboy- it's just wishful thinking on my part. I talk to my cats, too. (no, they haven't talked back, yet! Lol) there isn't 100% proof about a snakes hearing as I have read the article about snakes hearing in stereo. But, I'm not too worried about it, and I will still always talk to her. Also, when I purchased her I was told to feed her in a plastic bin or somewhere other than her enclosure so she wouldn't associate my hand in her home as food. I have read a lot of threads on here and I have read that it's best to feed in an enclosure, especially with Sero being 9-10ft (which is what I was told when I purchased her- haven't measured her myself yet) and moving such a good sized snake back into her enclosure after feeding is too stressful for her. Now I have proof since she bumped me the last time I tried to move her. No matter what, I want to make her as comfortable as possible and be respectful of her. I was told her previous owner handled her often, and she never showed aggression from the reptile shop I got her. I want to make sure she stays docile and that we can respect each other and she can tolerate me. She's too amazing NOT to do right by!

please don't get me wrong.....

i speak to my snakes to,as in...

why did you bite me you ******d,will you let go that branch so i can get you out the tank,etc,etc

my wife keeps saying " you'll get a firght of your life if,one day it answers you back " :D

cheers shaun

[Evolieno]

please don't get me wrong.....

i speak to my snakes to,as in...

why did you bite me you ******d,will you let go that branch so i can get you out the tank,etc,etc

my wife keeps saying " you'll get a firght of your life if,one day it answers you back " :D

cheers shaun

Haha, exactly! I can't not talk to her, she looks at me sometimes with her head cocked to the side like a confused little puppy dog. It makes me laugh, she must think I'm mental!

[shaunyboy]

Haha, exactly! I can't not talk to her, she looks at me sometimes with her head cocked to the side like a confused little puppy dog. It makes me laugh, she must think I'm mental!

we're all a tad mental on here pal :D

cheers shaun

[Gungirl]

we're all a tad mental on here pal :D

cheers shaun

I think most of us ( you guys) are a bit more than a "tad"

[shaunyboy]

I think most of us ( you guys) are a bit more than a "tad"

yes Kat some of us are further gone than others :wacky::D

but its great fun...!!

cheers shaun

[Gungirl]

I wouldn't want it any other way Shaun!

[Lankyrob]

we're all a tad mental on here pal :D

cheers shaun

And thats BEFORE the pain medication kicks in :wacky::wacky::wacky::tired1_2::bouncy::bouncy::wa cky: