Thoughts on proper monitor weight..

[Pirarucu]

Everyone here knows that monitors should not be tubs of lard, but how thick should they be exactly? I'm curious to hear everyone's views on this and what they believe the proper weight of a monitor is.

I would think that the best weight to shoot for is to look at the size of a newborn baby once it has absorbed any yolk bulge, and shoot for that. If you look at almost any reptile, the newborn babies are perfect miniatures of the parents, they usually don't change much proportionally. In any case it's certainly a healthy weight, if not the perfect weight, as it goes without saying that they are not born underweight or overweight. So, looking at this picture, you can get an idea of what I would consider to be a healthy weight.
http://www.reptilia.org.uk/ekmps/shops/thepetshop/images/baby-bosc-monitor-7184-p.jpg


Another idea I had of how to distinguish if a monitor is a healthy weight is to get the tail as thick as you can while keeping the body as thin as you can. Kept at proper temperatures, their body will properly metabolize and store the fat, and will put it in the tail base until there is no more available space in the tail, at which point it will begin to store it throughout the rest of their body. I noticed this while looking at old pictures of Chomper, you can see that his tail base was nice and thick, and while it stayed at the same thickness, the rest of him became stockier as the body stored fat throughout the rest of the body. Wayne please forgive me if it's just the camera angle, as I only have pictures to go off of.
http://www.chompersite.com/outside/images/standing.jpg
http://www.chompersite.com/outside/images/chompcorn.jpg


Again, that is only my personal opinion on proper weight, and I am eager to hear what everyone else's thoughts are.

[infernalis]

It was said to me by a couple people that Chomper was mildly overweight.


I like what I see right now with Littlefoot, he walks very proud, belly up in the air, no hint of dragging, and he holds his tail up so only the very tip drags.

Hopefully, I can keep that profile through adulthood.

[Pirarucu]

Yep, your two babies look perfect. I would say if people want a list of things to look for in adult monitors, it would be that the lateral fold should be visible when the monitor is walking, the belly should not drag, tail should be held up, and feet should be picked up off the ground, not just dragged along.

[infernalis]

Chomper was kept sub par, so he didn't burn off his food like he should have. :(

[Pirarucu]

Yeah, though I think that one thing that wasn't considered in DB's statement about mice and Savs is that even when kept in proper conditions, they can still get obese if fed a diet too high in fat, it's just that the body will store the fat as it's intended to, and it will take much longer to become obese.

To see what I'm getting at with this, we have to look at how the body utilizes different biomolecules. The two that are most relevant to this topic are carbohydrates and lipids. Now, when we look at what the body does with carbohydrates, we see that they are essentially quick energy, for use now, while lipids are stored for later use in fat reserves. However, those fat reserves will remain unused and will store more and more fat if the monitor is receiving enough carbohydrates to provide all the energy it needs. Only when the monitor has expended all the energy from ingested carbs will it start to burn the fat reserves that it has accumulated. Same thing happens with people, the most effective way to lose weight is to eat a diet high in protein and fat but no carbohydrates, coupled with lots of exercise. It forces your body to burn its fat reserves to sustain the energy demands placed upon it. Same thing applies with monitors.

[infernalis]

Same thing applies with monitors.

Not sure comparing reptiles to mammals is an ideal comparison.

However, common sense says not to give them more food than they can burn, or obesity is the logical end.

[Pirarucu]

Not sure comparing reptiles to mammals is an ideal comparison.

However, common sense says not to give them more food than they can burn, or obesity is the logical end.No, but in this instance it is a workable one, as they both use the biomolecules in the same manner.
Precisely. What Daniel said is correct, but I worry that some people may interpret it the wrong way.

[infernalis]

No, but in this instance it is a workable one, as they both use the biomolecules in the same manner.
Precisely. What Daniel said is correct, but I worry that some people may interpret it the wrong way.

Daniel already illustrated that the vast majority interpreted his study wrong.

Did you read his write up on rodents??

I quoted it on my site.

[Pirarucu]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about right now.

[varanus_mad]

Daniel already illustrated that the vast majority interpreted his study wrong.

Did you read his write up on rodents??

I quoted it on my site.


You know what the worrying thing is about that write up on rodents is...

people still interpret it to mean rodents bad inverts good...

[infernalis]

people still interpret it to mean rodents bad inverts good...

I just hope in a few years that I will be able to use my vibrant Boscs as a means to prove that environmental support outweighs diet choices.

Varanids in general are garbage cans, if you keep them correctly supported, they can eat almost anything that is or was alive.

I had some rat pups that died and were sitting for a while, those lizards sucked them right down without any hesitation.

Those rat pups were only half a click away from being rancid carrion, and my monitors jumped at the opportunity to eat it.

[Pirarucu]

Yup. Though in my opinion, I would still be careful with feeding items high in fat. If they get the carbs to sustain all their energy needs, the fat will be stored, not burned. That's just how it works. The role that proper heating and all that plays is keeping the monitor's system running at full potential, which doesn't mean it will digest and burn off all the fat it ingests, it means the body will store and utilize the fat how and when it is supposed to.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that mice are a good thing for Savs, but I don't believe they should be fed to Savs however often just because you think they will burn the fat because they are properly supported. It is a food item that needs to be regulated, and reduced when the monitor starts looking thick.

My idea would be to feed rodents however often, until the base of the tail was full to capacity with fat. At that point, I would cut back on the rodents. From that point on, a balance could be figured out to keep the tail base full but not start putting on pounds everywhere else.

[infernalis]

Agreed, during the first 8-10 months their growth is happening so rapidly that every calorie is burned almost as fast as it is consumed.

When mature the feeding has to slow down or the animal gets fat.

In the wild, Monitors must forage and hunt to eat, in captivity it's too easy, the food gets handed to them...

We as keepers are responsible to make sure they don't get into a routine where they just sit and wait for the next handout.

Oh, and I just wanted to point out, My last Sav was fed on primarily inverts, he was fed Shrimp, roaches, earthworms, snails, slugs and some fish.

Due to his cage being too small and the conditions incorrect, he still got fat, even without rodents.

Proper support and exercise, along with moderation in feeding all work together to keep the animal healthy and trim.

[jarich]

Yeah, though I think that one thing that wasn't considered in DB's statement about mice and Savs is that even when kept in proper conditions, they can still get obese if fed a diet too high in fat, it's just that the body will store the fat as it's intended to, and it will take much longer to become obese.

To see what I'm getting at with this, we have to look at how the body utilizes different biomolecules. The two that are most relevant to this topic are carbohydrates and lipids. Now, when we look at what the body does with carbohydrates, we see that they are essentially quick energy, for use now, while lipids are stored for later use in fat reserves. However, those fat reserves will remain unused and will store more and more fat if the monitor is receiving enough carbohydrates to provide all the energy it needs. Only when the monitor has expended all the energy from ingested carbs will it start to burn the fat reserves that it has accumulated. Same thing happens with people, the most effective way to lose weight is to eat a diet high in protein and fat but no carbohydrates, coupled with lots of exercise. It forces your body to burn its fat reserves to sustain the energy demands placed upon it. Same thing applies with monitors.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all fats are created equal. Im sure we have all heard now of the differences between saturated, unsaturated, mono and polyunsaturated fats, etc. These are also important to keep in mind regarding nutrition of animals.

[Pirarucu]

Agreed, during the first 8-10 months their growth is happening so rapidly that every calorie is burned almost as fast as it is consumed.

When mature the feeding has to slow down or the animal gets fat.

In the wild, Monitors must forage and hunt to eat, in captivity it's too easy, the food gets handed to them...

We as keepers are responsible to make sure they don't get into a routine where they just sit and wait for the next handout.

Oh, and I just wanted to point out, My last Sav was fed on primarily inverts, he was fed Shrimp, roaches, earthworms, snails, slugs and some fish.

Due to his cage being too small and the conditions incorrect, he still got fat, even without rodents.

Proper support and exercise, along with moderation in feeding all work together to keep the animal healthy and trim.Well said.

Jarich, good point. Just shows that this whole thing is just so much more complex than anyone can really understand.

[infernalis]

two I found today, a Sav and an Ackie... poor lizards.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad224/ghost5967/Quinn/IMG_0998.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i174/Rhacodactyl/ackies/IMG_0491.jpg

[Pirarucu]

Yikes. Such a shame too, the colorations are stunning.

[infernalis]

and get this.. opening statement on the post "we were trimming her nails"

YIKES!

Given proper dirt to dig in, their nails wear down by themselves.

and it's this couple's second sav, after the first died for "no reason".

[Pirarucu]

Eish. Things such as this are just heartbreaking to me.

[infernalis]

Eish. Things such as this are just heartbreaking to me.

Me too... and those staggering numbers just gut me.

half a million Savs alone exported out of Africa, and only a scarce few get good homes.

[Gatorhunter1231]

Not the worst sav I have seen but that is the fattest ackie I have. I didn't even know ackies would get that fat.

[infernalis]

and the shitz of it is, people are throwing out kudos like candy at a parade on the forum those pictures are posted on.

Not one person before me said anything about those fat blobs being obese... I am still waiting to see where my posts go, since I can't just sit here and compliment crap husbandry like it's OK.

Chomper was about 1 pound over his "ideal" weight, however, when he ran his belly never dragged on the ground, oh and he could run.......

The two I'm raising right now are like little crack heads compared to most, I can't help but smile ear to ear when they run right up the walls like spiderman.

I almost didn't think Savs could even do that.

[simpleyork]

here's his female ackie that goes with the male that Wayne put up
http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af276/simpleyork/ackie.jpg

[simpleyork]

well reply I've gotten is he bought the ackies that way but is going to get them into better shape now that he owns them

[simpleyork]

He added that the female should be dropping a clutch soon

[Robyn@SYR]

Dang.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i174/Rhacodactyl/ackies/IMG_0491.jpg

[jdub]

Yes, I could do that. I was thinking about it actually.

I'm also having trouble with the humidity. It is very, very dry in Colorado. It takes a lot of effort to even keep it up around 60% humidity. I am using a fogger and also have a tub full of cypress mulch in there. The box is sealed pretty well, not perfect but pretty good for a wooden box. I used Drylock on the entire interior and I've sealed the seams with weather strip. There are slight gaps around the lamps but that's it.

The dirt I am using is pink breeze which is a decomposed granite that came highly recommended. But it is not living up to my expectations.

[Pirarucu]

Are you keeping the dirt slightly moist?

[varanus_mad]

Yes, I could do that. I was thinking about it actually.

I'm also having trouble with the humidity. It is very, very dry in Colorado. It takes a lot of effort to even keep it up around 60% humidity. I am using a fogger and also have a tub full of cypress mulch in there. The box is sealed pretty well, not perfect but pretty good for a wooden box. I used Drylock on the entire interior and I've sealed the seams with weather strip. There are slight gaps around the lamps but that's it.

The dirt I am using is pink breeze which is a decomposed granite that came highly recommended. But it is not living up to my expectations.


More dirt less ventilation or even no ventilation just the gaps round the front of the viv.

That way it dunt matter if the airs dry so long as its got enough soil to burrow into.

[Gregg M]

Its not the actual weight of the monitor that is important. It is the body condition. Basically, what you want to see are lateral folds (not loose skin) that start at the neck and extend all the way down to the hind legs. Your lizard should not look like an over stuffed sausage like the 3 pictured above.

By looking at the shape of that savannah and its kinked up tail, it looks like it has never had anything close to proper husbandry its entire life. That sucks.

[infernalis]

By looking at the shape of that savannah and its kinked up tail, it looks like it has never had anything close to proper husbandry its entire life. That sucks.

It only sucks more that it's their second one, The first lizard died, so they bought another.

They sincerely seem as if they really care for (about) this animal, yet they are repeating the bad husbandry.