True length of "record" giant pythons.

[millertime89]

Minor rant:
I'm sick of seeing people quote incorrect lengths of giant pythons. NO PYTHON/ANACONDA HAS EVER BEEN ACCURATELY MEASURED AT 25+FT! You want scientific documentation? Here ya go.
http://www.vpi.com/sites/default/files/Barker-et-al_CorrectPythonLengths_2.pdf

I'll talk about why its not possible in another post. I need to talk to a few people to make sure I have all the facts in order.

[moshirimon]

The link won't open for me, and I don't see another thread lol. So why is it not possible for a snake to exceed 25 feet???

[Pirarucu]

I would say that it is possible, though extremely rare, for a large snake to exceed 25 feet. Titanoboa. There you go, snakes have been bigger in the past, so it's possible. We have no proven record of a retic or what have you growing to that size, but absence of proof is not proof of absence.
I saw a picture a few months back of the severed head of a retic killed in Indonesia. Judging by the picture, it looked like the Sulawesi locality, which is known to get larger than average. Looking at the size of the eyes in comparison to the size of the overall head... That was no small retic. Can't be sure how big it was, but it was massive, no doubt about it.

[moshirimon]

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj6/KINGbiggypac/nagini.jpg

is this the head?

[millertime89]

The link won't open for me, and I don't see another thread lol. So why is it not possible for a snake to exceed 25 feet???

its a pdf, gotta download it.

exceed 25 feet? possible. 30? The snake's physiology and the ecosystem won't allow it.

Titanoboa is an ancient and now extinct species that lived in a world greatly different from our own. Equatorial Colombia millions of years ago.

The absence of proof/proof of absence argument, while valid, is an extremely weak one. In my opinion with the popularity of these species in captivity and the frequency of "50 foot pythons" found in the wild that if one of these snakes could reach 30 feet, it would have happened already. Now if someone brings forth irrefutable proof of one of the big 3 hitting 30 ft, I'll gladly eat my words, but until then, I'll call anyone claiming such a thing full of $4!t, especially when every claim of a larger python, when investigated by scientists, has been bunk.

[KORBIN5895]

What's the oldest retic in captivity?

[lady_bug87]

I would say that it is possible, though extremely rare, for a large snake to exceed 25 feet. Titanoboa. There you go, snakes have been bigger in the past, so it's possible. We have no proven record of a retic or what have you growing to that size, but absence of proof is not proof of absence.
I saw a picture a few months back of the severed head of a retic killed in Indonesia. Judging by the picture, it looked like the Sulawesi locality, which is known to get larger than average. Looking at the size of the eyes in comparison to the size of the overall head... That was no small retic. Can't be sure how big it was, but it was massive, no doubt about it.

I really enjoy reading your posts, I find them really well thought out.

[Wildside]

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj6/KINGbiggypac/nagini.jpg

is this the head?

Why???? :no:

[StudentoReptile]

Longest snake - ever (captivity) - Size - Explore Records - Guinness World Records (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/size/longest-snake-ever-%28captivity%29)

Fluffy, a reticulated python (Python reticulatus), when measured on 30 September 2009, she was found to be over 7.3 m (24 ft) long. Fluffy died at the Columbus Zoo and Aquarium, Powell, Ohio, USA, on 26 Oct 2010 due to an apparent tumor. She was 18 years old and still 24 foot long.
----------
I certainly don't think 25 feet is out of the question. I really don't think 30 feet is completely out of the question either, although I concur very very unlikely.

30? The snake's physiology and the ecosystem won't allow it.

I think one aspect of this discussion calls for a distinction between the "average adult size" of a particular species and the "maximum/record" size of said species. Indeed, 18-20 seems to be the norm for most adult female Burms and maybe 22-24 for female retics. But I don't think its utterly inconceivable they could get larger. Certainly not on a routine basis, but just the right combination of genetics, diet, and dumb luck could result in an abnormally huge animal. And that goes for captive and wild specimens alike.

To address your question more directly, if 30 feet is impossible, what about 29 feet? 28 feet maybe? 27? see where I'm going? ;) Yes yes, I know...the higher the number, the more unlikely the scenario, but to stick a definite number on the issue "Its IMPOSSIBLE for any snake to get 30 feet ever!" is a little premature, IMHO.

[Donnie]

Here's one caught in 2002 at 23ft and says that one was found in 1912 measuring 33ft but no evidence for this one.

LiveLeak.com - HALF TON PYTHON: A HUGE Reticulated Python weighing 447kg (985lb) (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f54_1232403743)

[Aaron_S]

I personally believe if people keep breeding these giants at smaller and smaller sizes that we're just going to dwarf the species anyway.

Breed monster Suliwesi locales. Raise up some babies for 5 years. Breed the biggest. Keep doing that. Nobody will though. They need their retics to fit into drawers and be popping out eggs by 15 pounds and 12 feet.

[StudentoReptile]

I personally believe if people keep breeding these giants at smaller and smaller sizes that we're just going to dwarf the species anyway.

Breed monster Suliwesi locales. Raise up some babies for 5 years. Breed the biggest. Keep doing that. Nobody will though. They need their retics to fit into drawers and be popping out eggs by 15 pounds and 12 feet.

I hate to bring politics into it, but with all these stupid laws popping up, can you blame them? It almost seems like it will become the semi-"legal" way to keep a retic...if at all.

Mind you, I concur that part of the appeal is their size. Just observing the trend is all.

[Aaron_S]

I hate to bring politics into it, but with all these stupid laws popping up, can you blame them? It almost seems like it will become the semi-"legal" way to keep a retic...if at all.

Mind you, I concur that part of the appeal is their size. Just observing the trend is all.

I can blame them. If you can't handle it at full size then why at all? Why stunt and animal purely for OUR self gratification to keep it? That's a load of horseshit blaming it on politics and you and everyone else knows it!

That's PURE animal cruelty!

[StudentoReptile]

I can blame them. If you can't handle it at full size then why at all? Why stunt and animal purely for OUR self gratification to keep it? That's a load of horseshit blaming it on politics and you and everyone else knows it!

That's PURE animal cruelty!

Fundamentally, I agree. Like I said, if I wanted to keep a retic, I want a retic that is gonna get some size on it. If I wanted a 9-12-ft dwarf mutation, I'd just get a carpet python or a BCI or something. To paraphrase the clothing brand slogan, "If you can't run with the big snakes, go home!"

Again, I was just observing a trend, that is all. Realistically, the "purists" still outnumber the weanies IMHO. The keepers with the huge mainland localities will still fervently keep their giants no matter what.

[Aaron_S]

The "weanies" are the loudmouths though and get far more attention in all forms of media. Youtube, news stories or what have you.

[Jay]

Why???? :no:

Food, money, possibly safety.

[Wildside]

Food, money, possibly safety.

Those are forgivable reasons.

I think the scales on its head are about the size of my palm :O_o:

[StudentoReptile]

Those are forgivable reasons.


Indeed. Its easy to be judgmental of those in other countries who simply do not share our views of these animals. There's such a big picture to see that so many fail to.

[dave himself]

If you want to see a couple of big retics go to YouTube and check out big tiger retic sorry I don't know how to post the link its a guy called Steve who posted the videos

[StudentoReptile]

Quote:
30? The snake's physiology and the ecosystem won't allow it.

To address your question more directly, if 30 feet is impossible, what about 29 feet? 28 feet maybe? 27? see where I'm going? ;) Yes yes, I know...the higher the number, the more unlikely the scenario, but to stick a definite number on the issue "Its IMPOSSIBLE for any snake to get 30 feet ever!" is a little premature, IMHO.

Hey Millertime! You haven't addressed this yet! ;)

Just bumping the thread, since I'm sure inquiring minds would like to have a more in-depth explanation as to why it is scientifically impossible for a snake to get 30 feet, or if this is, in fact, only theory?

[millertime89]

I certainly don't think 25 feet is out of the question. I really don't think 30 feet is completely out of the question either, although I concur very very unlikely.



I think one aspect of this discussion calls for a distinction between the "average adult size" of a particular species and the "maximum/record" size of said species. Indeed, 18-20 seems to be the norm for most adult female Burms and maybe 22-24 for female retics. But I don't think its utterly inconceivable they could get larger. Certainly not on a routine basis, but just the right combination of genetics, diet, and dumb luck could result in an abnormally huge animal. And that goes for captive and wild specimens alike.

To address your question more directly, if 30 feet is impossible, what about 29 feet? 28 feet maybe? 27? see where I'm going? ;) Yes yes, I know...the higher the number, the more unlikely the scenario, but to stick a definite number on the issue "Its IMPOSSIBLE for any snake to get 30 feet ever!" is a little premature, IMHO.

Fluffy is a legend, I'm waiting for one of the 3 people with claims to the longest live snake in captivity to step up and have it verified. Medusa of Monster Snakes, Medusa in Kansas City, and Twinkie at Prehistoric Pets all have a legit shot. That said Medusa at Monsters had a successful clutch this year with some truly monster babies, I'm curious to see how big they are in a few years.

I see what you're getting at but 20+ ft female retics aren't exactly common. Jay at prehistoric pets refuses to breed his monster female because she's nearly irreplaceable. To find a snake like her is a long shot. There really aren't many examples of retics that long out there once they've been verified. Average female length for retics is definitely under 20ft. Usually around the 18ft mark. The right combination of diet, genetics, and dumb luck IS what is producing the 24-25 footers. The just don't happen as often as people would like.

Here's one caught in 2002 at 23ft and says that one was found in 1912 measuring 33ft but no evidence for this one.

LiveLeak.com - HALF TON PYTHON: A HUGE Reticulated Python weighing 447kg (985lb) (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f54_1232403743)

That's just it, there's no evidence for it. Even guiness screwed up when they measured Colossus (its in the pdf in the first post). That one in 2002 was originally quoted at 49 feet, but you see how so many people grossly overestimate a snake's length just because its REALLY BIG. 21-23 feet, more than likely on the lower side, but we'll never know unless someone is willing to accurately measure it.
snopes.com: Big Snake (http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/bigsnake.asp)

I personally believe if people keep breeding these giants at smaller and smaller sizes that we're just going to dwarf the species anyway.

Breed monster Suliwesi locales. Raise up some babies for 5 years. Breed the biggest. Keep doing that. Nobody will though. They need their retics to fit into drawers and be popping out eggs by 15 pounds and 12 feet.

There's dwarf localities, the breeders that want to bring the morphs down in size just get (for ease of discussion, this is a future post I'm working on) "SD" localities and breed the morphs down. Likewise Anery is a dwarf and SD morph and those breeders that are working on bringing some morphs down in size are also bringing Anery (and any potential future dwarf/SD morphs) up. Genetic Stripe was originally a Selayer locality morph, but we're seeing 16+ Genetic Stripes popping up. I'll ask if anyone is bumping up the size of morphs with big Sulas, I know Jake Klotz in the Chicago area is working with them. His Sula Platty Tigers look awesome.

Is that a big snake head? Oh yeah. I wish there was something there for reference though.

[Pirarucu]

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj6/KINGbiggypac/nagini.jpg

is this the head? No, the one I saw was taken directly from the side. It could be the same snake, but I don't remember it being as damaged, especially not the big slash on top of the head. I could be wrong though.

I stand by what I said. Titanoboa once existed. Snakes have grown bigger than 30 feet in the past. I believe it is certainly possible for a snake to grow to gargantuan sizes and larger. Extremely rare and we haven't seen it yet, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. We just found a monstrous croc in the Philippines, you would think that it would serve as a reminder that nature is capable of things we would never believe until we see them. It is ridiculous to say that the environment could not support an individual that big. The needs of one thirty foot snake are nothing. The environment will supply that with ease. I also think it's ridiculous to think that not one giant could exist when entire species of giant animals have existed throughout the paleontological record. A record is only a record until we find something bigger.

As far as your assumption that 24-25 footers are the result of luck, genetics, and diet... How many humans do you see that are over six feet tall, or maybe close to seven? Not exactly a huge percentage. If I had to estimate, that percentage is about the same as the percentage of retics over 20'. But look, the tallest human was almost nine feet tall, which is unbelievable. Look at how small of a percentage people that tall make up. Now consider that people stop growing sooner or later. Pythons don't.
Fluffy was eighteen years old and twenty-four feet long. Only eighteen. Pythons can live a lot longer than that, so how big would she be if she lived to a grand old age of thirty or forty? Just food for thought.

[lemon]

The longest ever Retic with proof was 23.5 foot and that really was a one in a million snake.

fluffy was quoted as 24foot but measured at 20 foot 1inch by the zoo that paid a lot of money for her from Bob.

Female burmese do not get to 18-20ft on average, baby the burmses again was quoted as 27 foot but measured shortly after her death at 18 foot 10unches and that at the moment is the known record for a burmese.

Most people dont appreicate how much bigger an 18 foot retic is compared to an average 15-`16 footer. i have a 15-16 ft 6 year old female retic and she is dwarfed by 18 footers both in lengh and girth. very few female retics get over 18 foot, i have two wild caught sumatran retics and hopefully as they are the biggest locale will reach over 18 foot but even then theres only a small chance.

[millertime89]

The longest ever Retic with proof was 23.5 foot and that really was a one in a million snake.

fluffy was quoted as 24foot but measured at 20 foot 1inch by the zoo that paid a lot of money for her from Bob.

Female burmese do not get to 18-20ft on average, baby the burmses again was quoted as 27 foot but measured shortly after her death at 18 foot 10unches and that at the moment is the known record for a burmese.

Most people dont appreicate how much bigger an 18 foot retic is compared to an average 15-`16 footer. i have a 15-16 ft 6 year old female retic and she is dwarfed by 18 footers both in lengh and girth. very few female retics get over 18 foot, i have two wild caught sumatran retics and hopefully as they are the biggest locale will reach over 18 foot but even then theres only a small chance.

Sumatran or Sulawesi? Everyone I've spoken with said Salus get bigger. Regardless do you have pictures of yours? I would love to see them. Got a source for your claim that fluffy was only about 20? I know of 3 retics currently that IMO need to get measured because all three look very close to the 24 ft mark if not over.

I agree with everything else you said though, did you have a chance to read the article in the first thread?

[lemon]

Sumatran or Sulawesi? Everyone I've spoken with said Salus get bigger. Regardless do you have pictures of yours? I would love to see them. Got a source for your claim that fluffy was only about 20? I know of 3 retics currently that IMO need to get measured because all three look very close to the 24 ft mark if not over.

I agree with everything else you said though, did you have a chance to read the article in the first thread?

It's on youtube Fluffy being measured. I'll try and fnd it after work.

I would be very surprised if there are any known snaks at the moment over 24 foot, The biggest I know of is Fragant flower at 22ft 9 inches.

There was also a documentary on where they unfortunatley caught and killed a 23.5 foot retic and thats the longest proven so far.

I know Twinkie and Medusa are claimed as 22-24ft retics but the really dont look much over 20ft to be honest.

I really do hope there is a true 24/25ft snake but ive yet to see it.

Not had chance to read the article in the 1st thread mate :-)

[millertime89]

I know Twinkie and Medusa are claimed as 22-24ft retics but the really dont look much over 20ft to be honest.

I really do hope there is a true 24/25ft snake but ive yet to see it.

Not had chance to read the article in the 1st thread mate :-)

There's another Medusa in Kansas City, Missouri that looks about as big, if not bigger than Harry's Medusa. Twinky is definitely 22+.
Using the serpwidgets tool, and the known width of the door being 3ft, Twinky in this picture measures around 22.5 ft.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/579358_396685697032370_11721962_n.jpg

Medusa in KC, yes she looks overweight.
Largest snake living in captivity: Medusa sets world record - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEpZB_hR5WA)
Largest snake living in captivity: 25-feet long Medusa sets world record (Video) (http://www.worldrecordacademy.com/nature/largest_snake_living_in_captivity_25-feet_long_Medusa_sets_world_record_112501.html)

[exwizard]

The "weanies" are the loudmouths though and get far more attention in all forms of media. Youtube, news stories or what have you.

If it were legal, I'd have already had a Retic or two and yes, full size mainland Retic. I'm doing this with Burms and I fully expect them to get some size on them in a few years. As long as Burms are legal here, I'm going to keep them. I just wish the same were true of Retics here.

[Rogue628]

There's another Medusa in Kansas City, Missouri that looks about as big, if not bigger than Harry's Medusa. Twinky is definitely 22+.
Using the serpwidgets tool, and the known width of the door being 3ft, Twinky in this picture measures around 22.5 ft.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/579358_396685697032370_11721962_n.jpg

Medusa in KC, yes she looks overweight.
Largest snake living in captivity: Medusa sets world record - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEpZB_hR5WA)
Largest snake living in captivity: 25-feet long Medusa sets world record (Video) (http://www.worldrecordacademy.com/nature/largest_snake_living_in_captivity_25-feet_long_Medusa_sets_world_record_112501.html)


I recently asked Jay about his feelings on Twinkie being considered overweight. He said he could see where she would look overweight in pics but assured me she wasn't, saying she ate less her weight in food a year. (what kind of formula is this? I've never heard of it...)

How does Medusa look overweight? What are you seeing that I'm missing?

Something doesn't add up. lol

Twinkie = 23' and 370lbs
Medusa = 25' and 300lbs
(so each animal's keeper says)

How can Twinkie be shorter and weigh more yet Medusa be overweight? I don't get it.....unless both animals are actually overweight....

[millertime89]

I recently asked Jay about his feelings on Twinkie being considered overweight. He said he could see where she would look overweight in pics but assured me she wasn't, saying she ate less her weight in food a year. (what kind of formula is this? I've never heard of it...)

How does Medusa look overweight? What are you seeing that I'm missing?

Something doesn't add up. lol

Twinkie = 23' and 370lbs
Medusa = 25' and 300lbs
(so each animal's keeper says)

How can Twinkie be shorter and weigh more yet Medusa be overweight? I don't get it.....unless both animals are actually overweight....

watch that video of Medusa and see just how wide her back is. I think he's grossly underestimating the weight of her. Twinkie definitely looks thinner than the KC Medusa.

[Rogue628]

watch that video of Medusa and see just how wide her back is. I think he's grossly underestimating the weight of her. Twinkie definitely looks thinner than the KC Medusa.


Ahhh......yeah, I see it now. One or the other doesn't have a correct length/weight, but Medusa does look larger in girth than Twinkie. That's why it wasn't adding up to me.

[Wildside]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/579358_396685697032370_11721962_n.jpg


I'd love to have one of those but I don't have that many people to hold it while I clean it's cage :crazy2:

[Robyn@SYR]

From what I have seen, 25 ft is going to be a very difficult length to reach for any current species.

[jaleely]

That photo is of Twinkie, not Medusa. I am going to go see Twinkie this saturday!!! For real! LoL!

Twinkie: The World's Largest Snake - Tourist Attraction - Fountain Valley, CA | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/worldslargesttwinkie)

BTW I agree with Aaron *nod nod*

And they clarify on their website they mean largest python ...we'll see!

[mark24]

I'm sure if a python can reach 24 feet an over 400 pounds it can get to 25'+

[millertime89]

That photo is of Twinkie, not Medusa. I am going to go see Twinkie this saturday!!! For real! LoL!

Twinkie: The World's Largest Snake - Tourist Attraction - Fountain Valley, CA | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/worldslargesttwinkie)

BTW I agree with Aaron *nod nod*

And they clarify on their website they mean largest python ...we'll see!

I did say that...
Jay has said heaviest/largest, not longest. She certainly is a sight to see, can't wait to see her in person some day. Twinkie is verified, neither of the Medusas are as far as I'm aware.

[Rogue628]

I did say that...
Jay has said heaviest/largest, not longest. She certainly is a sight to see, can't wait to see her in person some day. Twinkie is verified, neither of the Medusas are as far as I'm aware.

I don't think they're verified either. I haven't been able to find any verifiable info on either one.

Just for the record, I <3 Twinkie...and I'm sooo jealous that Missy's going to get to see her this weekend! lol

[mark24]

regard my last post the longest python on record is 27 feet long and is over 400 pounds

[StudentoReptile]

regard my last post the longest python on record is 27 feet long and is over 400 pounds

And which one is this again? Date/location? Is this a captive animal or wildcaught?

[millertime89]

And which one is this again? Date/location? Is this a captive animal or wildcaught?

pretty sure 27 was a typo, I'm still not sure which one is 24 ft and 400 lbs though.

[lemon]

Sumatran or Sulawesi? Everyone I've spoken with said Salus get bigger. Regardless do you have pictures of yours? I would love to see them. Got a source for your claim that fluffy was only about 20? I know of 3 retics currently that IMO need to get measured because all three look very close to the 24 ft mark if not over.

I agree with everything else you said though, did you have a chance to read the article in the first thread?

Fluffy being measured

fluffy measurement - snakezilla - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=53bZE50TuBc)

[Gatorhunter1231]

Texas Reptile Expo & Genesis Reptile Co., Expos, Herps, Hooks, Probes, Tongs, Hemostats, Tweezers and Magazines (http://www.texasreptiles.com/freaks/burm.html)

baby is the largest I ever heard of.

[lemon]

Texas Reptile Expo & Genesis Reptile Co., Expos, Herps, Hooks, Probes, Tongs, Hemostats, Tweezers and Magazines (http://www.texasreptiles.com/freaks/burm.html)

baby is the largest I ever heard of.

'Baby' was only 18ft 10inches and no way near the quoted 26/27ft.

I have footage of a very slim 23.5ft wild caught retic that was sadly killed and this the longest even proven.

The longest in captivity today are a snake that brady barr measured and fragant flower which amazingly both are the same size at 22ft 9inches.

Fluffy was only 20ft 1inch and most of the big american breeders overfeed their giants to make them look longer when in fact Medusa and twinkie etc are really only around 21-22ft. These are still big snakes but still way off 24/25ft.

The longest in the UK that we know of is 21ft 8inches and is in a private collection.

'Prony' is also quoted as between 24/26ft depending which youtube video you click on lol but again she looks around 22ft and has yet to have a verified measurement.

I can't believe guiness records passed of Fluffy as the longest snake at 24ft without even measuring her.

[millertime89]

You keep spouting off that Medusa is only 21-22 ft and eventually you're gonna get a very unpleasant conversation from Harry.

[Norm66]

I fail to see how anyone can have an informed opinion on the size of a snake they've never seen in person. Not to mention how Guinness could fail to measure something and proclaim it the biggest anything.

[millertime89]

I fail to see how anyone can have an informed opinion on the size of a snake they've never seen in person. Not to mention how Guinness could fail to measure something and proclaim it the biggest anything.

Guinness is a joke when it comes to these things. Their track record is abysmal.

[StudentoReptile]

Guinness is a joke when it comes to these things. Their track record is abysmal.

One could say that they are the world's largest and most comprehensive list of inaccurate world records! :wacky:

Irony, much?!

[iBaman]

Funny story...one of the guys at the pet store said he had a 13ft bci...I kinda laughed a little bit...is that even possible? Cause as soon as I told him I had a retic and a ball, and was looking at a bci, that snake shrunk to 8 ft xD

[millertime89]

One could say that they are the world's largest and most comprehensive list of inaccurate world records! :wacky:

Irony, much?!

Sounds like an appropriate description to me.

Funny story...one of the guys at the pet store said he had a 13ft bci...I kinda laughed a little bit...is that even possible? Cause as soon as I told him I had a retic and a ball, and was looking at a bci, that snake shrunk to 8 ft xD

Lol, big surprise... I've heard similar reports, someone sent me to a link of a 15ft bcc from the amazon, a certain locality gets huge, I'll try and find the picture. There was a study that accompanied it but the link was dead and I never was able to find a title.

[iBaman]

Baha, you boys and your 'i swear it's 12 inches!' ;D sounds like and interesting study, I'd love to read it if you can find it!

[mark24]

And which one is this again? Date/location? Is this a captive animal or wildcaught?

Burmese python I don't know the date it was in Florida it was wild caught I believe

[millertime89]

Burmese python I don't know the date it was in Florida it was wild caught I believe

Biggest load of horse poop ever, find a source to back up your claims or you're no better than the people running around saying they get 30 ft and dine on humans. You guys see the problem with spreading this misinformation? We're perpetuating the notion that these amazing and intelligent animals are nothing but monsters.

[mark24]

I can't post pics from my phone or I'd post it

[snake man12]

He may mean the 17 footer that was recently found.

[lemon]

He may mean the 17 footer that was recently found.

Once again this was a load of propaganda.

Anybody with any experience with giant snakes could easily tell from the picutre that the Burmese Python caught was no where near 17ft. The animal in the picture from the report I saw on the BBC was only around 13ft.

Secondly did anybody notice how good a condition the animal was in?

That particular animal was either only released recently or god forbid the government of any country would lie it was actually never caught in the everglades in the first place, but by saying it was and adding several feet to its size sure does make it easier to justify the killing of these snakes.

[lemon]

You keep spouting off that Medusa is only 21-22 ft and eventually you're gonna get a very unpleasant conversation from Harry.

Me and several other uk memebers have already been there.

BUT all we are saying is the photos released of Medusa are not of a 24/25 foot snake, not saying she isnt that big but merely stating she isnt that big in the pictures provided and everytime we were provided with a picture which argued the point that the snake in question she wasnt 24/25ft and when everyone eventually agreed it was then said it was an old picture. (I'm not sure if it was Harry himself or someone that works with him that was posting etc) Though I doubt she would have grown much if any over the last few years.

Shes a very big and beautiful snake, but she isn't 24/25ft in any of the pictures flying about.

[lemon]

BBC News - Giant Burmese python caught in Florida (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19252080)

No where near 17ft as you can tell.

Also I like the way they mention '87 eggs' so they can frighten people even more and convince them each escaped snake is producing '87' offspring.

Oh don't you just love the media lol.

[millertime89]

BBC News - Giant Burmese python caught in Florida (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19252080)

No where near 17ft as you can tell.

Also I like the way they mention '87 eggs' so they can frighten people even more and convince them each escaped snake is producing '87' offspring.

Oh don't you just love the media lol.

Lot of slugs in that picture for sure. I heard somewhere the snake was actually caught in the spring and they didn't release the info until now, no surprise why... when I'm not on my phone I'm gonna look at the pictures again but I didn't think it looked like a 17 footer either.

[Eddie]

Any things possiable

[millertime89]

Any things possiable

no its not.

[Wildside]

Here's the latest

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560935_423555784357903_1337813473_n.jpg

The dead snake was 55ft (16.7m) long, weighed 300kg and was estimated to be 140 years old, according to the post. Biggest snake in the world forest in Malaysia.

It was on my facebook so it has to be true.

[StudentoReptile]

Yeah, that photo's been floating around for a few years now as well. Another trick using forced perspective. See how close the scoop is on that...machine (bah, forgot what you call those things)? The scoop is larger than the cage of the operator! LOL

[Lankyrob]

Lol, look at the leaves on the right hand side forefront, they are twice the size of the men!!! :)

[Roadtrash]

I suppose that if it lives long enough it can reach the magic 30 ft mark as they tend to continue to grow all their lives. Of course after awhile it is more in width than length sort of like an alligator. The way I see it if conditions are right with food and habitat and it lives a long time why not?

[lemon]

I suppose that if it lives long enough it can reach the magic 30 ft mark as they tend to continue to grow all their lives. Of course after awhile it is more in width than length sort of like an alligator. The way I see it if conditions are right with food and habitat and it lives a long time why not?

Because they do not grow all their lives. This is a myth.

They grow for between 7-13 years. I've never known a Retic grow beyond 13 years and even this is very rare.

Luckily unlike humans they don't appear to shrink neither but as you said they can become obese as their metabolism slows down if they are fed the same amount of food.

[Roadtrash]

I can relate to the obese part as they get older as we as humans do this. But I always heard they continued to grow all their lives if they continued to feed properly. I guess I stand corrected. Thanks for the info, that's what I like about this site, there's so much I don't know and there are so many people here with so much more knowledge than I have. It seems I learn something new every time I log on here and I like that.

[mark24]

A captive Burmese python living at the Serpent Safari Park in Gurnee, Illinois, is the largest living snake on record. Tagged with the unlikely name “Baby,” this enormous reptile is 27 feet long and weighs just over 400 pounds. (If you’ve got a tape measure that will reach all the way out to 27 feet, run it out there and see if that doesn’t make you glad that damn thing isn’t on the loose!)

Got that here Creature Feature: Burmese Pythons Prowl the Everglades, and That’s Not a Good Thing | National Parks Traveler (http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/05/creature-feature-burmese-pythons-prowl-everglades-and-s-not-good-thing)

[lemon]

A captive Burmese python living at the Serpent Safari Park in Gurnee, Illinois, is the largest living snake on record. Tagged with the unlikely name “Baby,” this enormous reptile is 27 feet long and weighs just over 400 pounds. (If you’ve got a tape measure that will reach all the way out to 27 feet, run it out there and see if that doesn’t make you glad that damn thing isn’t on the loose!)

Got that here Creature Feature: Burmese Pythons Prowl the Everglades, and That’s Not a Good Thing | National Parks Traveler (http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/05/creature-feature-burmese-pythons-prowl-everglades-and-s-not-good-thing)

she died years ago and was measured at only 18ft 10inches.

still the biggest burmese i know off but no where near 27foot

[lemon]

I can relate to the obese part as they get older as we as humans do this. But I always heard they continued to grow all their lives if they continued to feed properly. I guess I stand corrected. Thanks for the info, that's what I like about this site, there's so much I don't know and there are so many people here with so much more knowledge than I have. It seems I learn something new every time I log on here and I like that.

I assumsed this as well :-)

but after speaking to many keepers (much much more experienced than me) they have measured their snakes month on month and only the largest one at just under 22foot grew until it was 13 years old. The rest stopped at around 8-10 years.

One of the guys even had one that stopped growing at 7 years of age.

[millertime89]

she died years ago and was measured at only 18ft 10inches.

still the biggest burmese i know off but no where near 27foot

That's about as big as I know of too, the one at the Reptile Gardens might be close. I swear some people didn't read the entire thread, or at the very least didn't read the article I posted in the VERY FIRST POST where it talks about Baby.

[StudentoReptile]

They probably didn't. They just thought "Oh COOL! A thread about the longest snake in the world! I think I know which one it was!" and just post without reading a darn thing.

[mark24]

First off i read every single post on this thread, and I didn't see anything about baby. Second why did my article say that he/she was 27ft over 400 pound if he/she was only 18ft. Third I have seen in a couple places that the largest brum on reccord 27ft so i really dont know to tell you guys.

[lemon]

First off i read every single post on this thread, and I didn't see anything about baby. Second why did my article say that he/she was 27ft over 400 pound if he/she was only 18ft. Third I have seen in a couple places that the largest brum on reccord 27ft so i really dont know to tell you guys.

I think he meant his other thread reffering to 'Babys' size.

The article you read is wrong.

The internet is full of information that is inaccurate.

To be honest most snake keepers don't know the true sizes of snakes and I would guess a high percentage of owners also exagarate the szie of their anaimal.

I've not seen many snakes that are the sizes quoted.

Peole just generally dont measure their snakes but guess.

Baby was a massive burmese dont get me wrong but because of false sizes flying around eveywhere the 18ft 10inches she was doesnt seem that impressive but in reality a burmese this sze really is one in a million.

[Donnie]

Here is another '25 foot' retic verified (not the word I would use) by the guinness book of records for next year's addition (think this snake is mentioned in earlier in this thread). You would think they would actually measure the snakes to verify the lengths rather than believing the keepers estimates. How long do you all think this one is by the pictures?


The world¿s longest snake living in captivity weighs more than 300lbs, is 25ft long and lives in a haunted house in Kansas | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206693/The-world-s-longest-snake-living-captivity-weighs-300lbs-25ft-long-lives-haunted-house-Kansas.html)

[Rogue628]

Here is another '25 foot' retic verified (not the word I would use) by the guinness book of records for next year's addition (think this snake is mentioned in earlier in this thread). You would think they would actually measure the snakes to verify the lengths rather than believing the keepers estimates. How long do you all think this one is by the pictures?


The world¿s longest snake living in captivity weighs more than 300lbs, is 25ft long and lives in a haunted house in Kansas | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206693/The-world-s-longest-snake-living-captivity-weighs-300lbs-25ft-long-lives-haunted-house-Kansas.html)


That's Medusa and she's already been discussed in this thread ;)

[millertime89]

Thanks lemon, you were nicer than I would have been. He should read the links posted not just the posts themselves. Sources are provided by the author...

Yeah that's the Medusa in KC, not Harry's, she's a big girl but her owner is an idiot who is just fueling the misinformation fires and adding to the bs fear. Glad to see she's finally verified but I don't exactly trust Guiness a whole lot.

[Rogue628]

Thanks lemon, you were nicer than I would have been. He should read the links posted not just the posts themselves. Sources are provided by the author...

Yeah that's the Medusa in KC, not Harry's, she's a big girl but her owner is an idiot who is just fueling the misinformation fires and adding to the bs fear. Glad to see she's finally verified but I don't exactly trust Guiness a whole lot.


Ok, now I'm confused. There's 2 Medusa's? I thought the only one was at the haunted house and we've discussed her before....

[lemon]

Here is another '25 foot' retic verified (not the word I would use) by the guinness book of records for next year's addition (think this snake is mentioned in earlier in this thread). You would think they would actually measure the snakes to verify the lengths rather than believing the keepers estimates. How long do you all think this one is by the pictures?


The world¿s longest snake living in captivity weighs more than 300lbs, is 25ft long and lives in a haunted house in Kansas | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206693/The-world-s-longest-snake-living-captivity-weighs-300lbs-25ft-long-lives-haunted-house-Kansas.html)

On the 1st picture the small tiles are a square foot. If you follow and measure the snake based on this shes about 20-22ft.

Once again a very large animal and a very rare large size but not 25 foot and gunniness have verified this as much as they verified fluffy!

Plus, much more worrying is why they are feeding the poor snake a 40lb prey item weekly. Snakes this size do require large feeds but not every week. She is very overweight and this is to make her appear longer than she is.

The only thing they'll acheive with her is an early death.

I'll try and find the footage of the 23.5 foot wild retic that was captured and killed as that is still the longest retic I know off. Though she was wild caugt and was very very skinny compared to her captive relatives.

[lemon]

Thanks lemon, you were nicer than I would have been. He should read the links posted not just the posts themselves. Sources are provided by the author...

Yeah that's the Medusa in KC, not Harry's, she's a big girl but her owner is an idiot who is just fueling the misinformation fires and adding to the bs fear. Glad to see she's finally verified but I don't exactly trust Guiness a whole lot.

Lol :-)

I've been there though.

If you go back several years I also belived baby was 27ft and fluffy was 24ft etc.

I guess we never stop learning and that includes now :-)

I dont belive they are any genuine retics in captivity at the moment near 25ft but I would be so happy to be proved wrong i really would.

I belive there is probably a skinny 25footer somehwhere in the wild.

The longest are definitley in the wild but the largest due to available food will always be in captivity.

[lemon]

Ok, now I'm confused. There's 2 Medusa's? I thought the only one was at the haunted house and we've discussed her before....

Harrys medusa is an albino.

The other medusa is an overwieght normal at a tourist attraction.

Both claimed at around 25 foot but both appear in the pictures provided about 21-22ft.

[Rogue628]

Ahh. I wasn't aware of the albino one. I knew about the other.

I thought Twinkie at Prehistoric Pets was verified at 23' and 370lbs. Wouldn't that make her the biggest? She's not as long but has more weight....

[lemon]

Ahh. I wasn't aware of the albino one. I knew about the other.

I thought Twinkie at Prehistoric Pets was verified at 23' and 370lbs. Wouldn't that make her the biggest? She's not as long but has more weight....

From the pictures I've seen posted on the uk forums myself and other much more expericne large snake keepers have Twinkie at again around 21-22ft. Which an exceptionally large snake and she is definitley the heaviest retic i know off but again i think even that weight has been exagarrated.

Shes a lovely snake but if they carry on feeding her like they do she wont last that long.

Theres no way shes genetically that heavy from eating the same diet as most other large snakes and I remember them saying once that shes just a keen eater and likes to eat lots of food because shes a big girl. Most large snakes ive ever owned will eat whatever you put in front of them so this doesnt really wash with me.

Once again I believe shes been fed weekly what she should be eating monthly just like I suspect a high majority of these so called record breakers are.

[millertime89]

This exact discussion popped up on a FB group that I'm a member of and Steve Dawson, another person who keeps giant retics in the UK agrees with you. I'm curious, what do you think these 3 measure?

http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8864_2.sized.jpg

The guy holding this burm was about 6 ft, he said that the last time they measured it, it was around 7ft in length, I told him they should measure again, looks to be a little over 10.
http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8753_2.sized.jpg

my brother is 5'10"
http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8841.sized.jpg

The first and the third had measurements quoted on the info boxes that were on the glass, I'm just curious what you think.

[Lankyrob]

Top one i reckon at 14foot?

Bottom one a little shorter? :)

[lemon]

This exact discussion popped up on a FB group that I'm a member of and Steve Dawson, another person who keeps giant retics in the UK agrees with you. I'm curious, what do you think these 3 measure?

http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8864_2.sized.jpg

The guy holding this burm was about 6 ft, he said that the last time they measured it, it was around 7ft in length, I told him they should measure again, looks to be a little over 10.
http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8753_2.sized.jpg

my brother is 5'10"
http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8841.sized.jpg

The first and the third had measurements quoted on the info boxes that were on the glass, I'm just curious what you think.

The top has just been fed because the neck is realy large just behind the snakes head. I think its about 10-11ft but look longer due to it being full of food.

The guy holding the burmese if he is 6ft tall then the snake is clearly over 7 foot. I agree with you its looks just over 10ft to me aswell.

Its difficult to tell with the retic in the last picutre but it looks larger than mine which is 15-16ft but it doesnt look huge like medusa etc. I would guess at around 18ft-20ft but its so difficult to tell in that picture. :)

[millertime89]

the top one has terrible perspective, closer to 18 feet, each length was about 5 feet plus the tail that is curled around, the albino was around 12-14. The retic was quoted as 22 but the curator thinks she's closer to 20 which looked about right when my brother was laying down and I was close to the glass. Its hard to get good pictures like that and show everything.

I found the study where it claims a 10 meter retic was found. Check out page 39.
http://ia700503.us.archive.org/18/items/naturalhistory55newy/naturalhistory55newy.pdf
Here's the important bit.
"told me of a huge python one of their natives had killed a few days before my arrival, and showed me a very poor photograph of it taken after it had been killed and dragged to camp. Though the print was dull, you could see a man standing on the huge body, which was about a foot thick. The civil engineer told me it was just ten meters (33 feet) long. I asked him if he had paced off its length, but he said, no, he had measured it with a surveying tape. No part of the animal was preserved. It had been rainy weather when it was killed and on account of the dampness not even the skin was kept. I visited the place where the carcass had been cast aside. There was only the odor, and a few little pieces of bone left. Wild pigs, kites, monitors, and maggots were the jungle scavengers that had disposed of it. I greatly regretted not having arrived at this place a little sooner, as I very much wanted a large python and this was the largest one I had heard of."

So no hard evidence, just a civil engineer who claims he taped it off. No body, no remains, just a smell.

[lemon]

the top one has terrible perspective, closer to 18 feet, each length was about 5 feet plus the tail that is curled around, the albino was around 12-14. The retic was quoted as 22 but the curator thinks she's closer to 20 which looked about right when my brother was laying down and I was close to the glass. Its hard to get good pictures like that and show everything.

I found the study where it claims a 10 meter retic was found. Check out page 39.
http://ia700503.us.archive.org/18/items/naturalhistory55newy/naturalhistory55newy.pdf
Here's the important bit.
"told me of a huge python one of their natives had killed a few days before my arrival, and showed me a very poor photograph of it taken after it had been killed and dragged to camp. Though the print was dull, you could see a man standing on the huge body, which was about a foot thick. The civil engineer told me it was just ten meters (33 feet) long. I asked him if he had paced off its length, but he said, no, he had measured it with a surveying tape. No part of the animal was preserved. It had been rainy weather when it was killed and on account of the dampness not even the skin was kept. I visited the place where the carcass had been cast aside. There was only the odor, and a few little pieces of bone left. Wild pigs, kites, monitors, and maggots were the jungle scavengers that had disposed of it. I greatly regretted not having arrived at this place a little sooner, as I very much wanted a large python and this was the largest one I had heard of."

So no hard evidence, just a civil engineer who claims he taped it off. No body, no remains, just a smell.

I will really need to be convinced the first one is 18ft lol. 18ft is one heck of a size burmese and it doesnt look aynway near that.

Is that article the same as the 33ft snake that the guiness records have as the largest snake?

I'm still to believe that any living snake species can get anywhere near 30ft. Just to find a true 25ft plus retic would be quite a find :)

[millertime89]

I said closer to 18, she was a chunky burm and I don't think I have any better pictures with a good point of reference for her.

I believe it is the same article they reference, yes, however their site no longer has it listed so I'm not sure what their stance is anymore. For what its worth they still list Fluffy as the longest in captivity as 24ft even though she was accurately measured, on video, at 20ish.

[millertime89]

Here's a few more of the retic
http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8829_2.sized.jpg

http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8840.sized.jpg

the albino burm yawned for everyone to see.
http://www.1320video.com/img/album375/MG_8874_2.sized.jpg

[Rogue628]

Love the albino burm. How long is she? It's really hard to tell in that pic. She still has a nice bit of white to her.

[Gungirl]

When it comes to snakes I think the typical man rule applies... for every 8" they say it is we should assume its 3"......

[Wildside]

When it comes to snakes I think the typical man rule applies... for every 8" they say it is we should assume its 3"......

lolololololol!!!!!!!!!!


My snake's bigger then ur snake!

[Danimal]

Don't hate me for this bro, but I think you should let this one go. This is one of those things that's not worth heating your blood up over. I let myself believe in giants although I am a realist and eventually I am forced accept the reality. It's a serenity prayer moment. I mean, I like to fish and well, I'm not admitting that my perception may have been slightly skewed in the past but I guess its possible....:laugh:

[millertime89]

Love the albino burm. How long is she? It's really hard to tell in that pic. She still has a nice bit of white to her.

If I had to guess, I would say around 12 ft, but she was never close enough to the glass for a good guesstimate.

When it comes to snakes I think the typical man rule applies... for every 8" they say it is we should assume its 3"......

hahahahahahahahahahahaha, maybe not quite THAT much of a disparity, but its a fair point, humans do like to exaggerate a bit... ok a lot.

[millertime89]

Don't hate me for this bro, but I think you should let this one go. This is one of those things that's not worth heating your blood up over. I let myself believe in giants although I am a realist and eventually I am forced accept the reality. It's a serenity prayer moment. I mean, I like to fish and well, I'm not admitting that my perception may have been slightly skewed in the past but I guess its possible....:laugh:

When getting the right info out there may well determine whether I'm allowed to keep my favorite snakes or not I'm going to spread the correct information around as much as possible. With all of the BS laws that people (and groups like the HSUS) are trying to get passed banning herps big and small I think this just might be something other keepers should consider as well.

[C5Chris]

One point I would like to bring up seeing as Titanoboa was mentioned and "possibility" of 25-30ft snakes..

When they discovered Titanoboa they not also discovered large turtles and crocodiles (or alligators I cant remember which) but also larger leaves on the plants as well and were able to deduce that they average temperature was about 7-8 degrees warmer, which allowed these species to grow so large.

Also you didn't have the human interference in the environment and eco system there is today so when you factor these things in, an ever shrinking ecosystem and cooler planet (although Im sure the global warming enthusiasts might debate this) I think the chances of finding anything that big is pretty slim to none.

But like it was mentioned before, youd have to have all the perfect elements, and a bunch of luck. Impossible.. im not sure. Just extremely unlikely.

[smy_749]

The level of oxygen in the atmosphere was significantly higher than it is now. Oxygen is the limiting factor in growth on this planet. Dragon flies used to be 3 feet long. Almost everything on our planet needs oxygen in to produce usable energy. Limit the oxygen, you limit usable energy, thus limiting growth. I won't go into it to deep, but you won't see anything like titanoboa or w.e its called, or mega shark or any of the stuff on discovery channel.

[lemon]

Here's my friend with my other big girl


http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee516/Lemon292/calm/P1180263_zps3ff8ba07.jpg (http://s1231.photobucket.com/user/Lemon292/media/calm/P1180263_zps3ff8ba07.jpg.html)
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQCAIAAAC QkWg2AAABz0lEQVQokYWRPWvbUBSG75rf0CX/oUumLiWdnKGDSAfPwQmhgyDD7RIE5fgDS9CguxSV4kuHiKZJaw huIUvprFOcRrGJI/NS48bYXLiL6FTTQSUEgt2Hl3c6DwfOEdba+B52MSKOY2YGYPPc GAOAmZc4QmsNoHHSdWodp9ZpnHQB/F9wap3D6+TwOnFqHQBa64VCK4qYedWptm/S9k266lSZuRVFywQAK2uVwW/zLf+5slYBsExQoTLGPHj26jbGGNd14zjWWreiqBVFKlQHQRD4f pNIqFCNZtOXH7q3McYEvj+fz22e2zy38z/jerP38NH09Zt6vSoC3wdwdwOAwPeL6cloDGC88fRIiGnleZNIE HkA4uPTvf3g/cfO3n4AgMgr3jL5NQEwe9tK1zcm+l3g+4LIy7KsXHkRH58WnWW ZlPKfMBoDwNVg2OuPZlMiT0gpARx9+lza3CoaQLlc1lqrUBF5U kop5bDXB1CvV4WUkplLm1vtdrtoZt7d2c66l+dJcp4kzMzMg+8/ADSJhOu6AL6cfW0cREUD2N3ZRsHVYNjrZ93LQiDyhOu6aXph7p CmF+tPHqtQqVAFvl+cv0lE5BF5wlpbuseiN1tr/wI7NC51ixCweQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

[dave himself]

@ lemon mate she's a beauty what size is that girl

[Freebody]

I can blame them. If you can't handle it at full size then why at all? Why stunt and animal purely for OUR self gratification to keep it? That's a load of horseshit blaming it on politics and you and everyone else knows it!

That's PURE animal cruelty!
I read this and I cant disagree more, I think it purely ones own opinion, has nothing to do with animal cruelty, that's like saying 2 normal people give birth to a dwarf/little person, they should kill it so it cant reproduce the genetic of dwarfism if that's a word < lol, or to save the person the cruelty of living as a small person? or people should not love that person based only on the fact they are small, and overlook there qualities and personality, people should just move on and find something they like in a regular size body, this also has to do with millers post just ofter yours as well where he agrees, its the same with dwarf snakes, I Love retics, I love how they are known to be the most intelligent snakes, very alert, they are my favorite, I happen to own a dwarf retic and I love her very much and I take perfect care of her and enjoy her just the way she is, I don't think by me keeping her its cruel in anyway, so what she wont hit 20 feet, and has pretty much topped out at 11 or so, I don't think shes suffering from the cruelty of someone breeding her. I do agree with what you said about the breed generally being smaller as the year pass, just like you said everyone breeds smaller snakes to keep it legal to own ie why I got a dwarf. and over time snakes will be released in areas they can survive in breed out and inevitably the species will be smaller, but it has nothing to do with cruelty imho, just my 2 cents.

[smy_749]

Freebody, your example is irrelevant :P

If you bred 2 normal retics and they had an freak baby who was very small, fine.

But what about if you marry a very short woman, with the intent to have a shorter child. And you teach your children to marry short women/men, so that they can have short children as well.

These dwarfs are being produced intentionally, not accidentally, through selective breeding. Giving birth to a dwarf is just genetic mishap, not selective/intentional.

And yes, humans are stubborn/selfish, and so long as it appeals to our needs, animals will always take the back seat.

I don't know if the snake suffers in any way, though I doubt it. (I don't his fellow retics make fun of him at school) but its just about the fact that we probably would go to the extent of breeding something which suffers, for our own pleasure. (like the albino niles/iguanas who can barely see if anything at all)

[Freebody]

Freebody, your example is irrelevant :P

If you bred 2 normal retics and they had an freak baby who was very small, fine.

But what about if you marry a very short woman, with the intent to have a shorter child. And you teach your children to marry short women/men, so that they can have short children as well.

These dwarfs are being produced intentionally, not accidentally, through selective breeding. Giving birth to a dwarf is just genetic mishap, not selective/intentional.

And yes, humans are stubborn/selfish, and so long as it appeals to our needs, animals will always take the back seat.

I don't know if the snake suffers in any way, though I doubt it. (I don't his fellow retics make fun of him at school) but its just about the fact that we probably would go to the extent of breeding something which suffers, for our own pleasure. (like the albino niles/iguanas who can barely see if anything at all)
how do you figure it not relevant lol its the same thing, someone found and adult retic that was very small, they realized by breeding it, that it produced much smaller adults, after 3 succesfull breeding they can now call it a dwarf, or whatever trait it has proven to find, this is how morphs come to be, and with the success of the baby outcome they can determine is its codom or recesive traits, dwarf/little people is a codom train in humans if im correct not sure 100%, but it has been proven that dwarf is a genetic anomaly, people who have children and either of the parents are dwarf, its a known fact you run a high chance of having dwarf/little people children of your own, im not talking about normal short/tall people! LOL im talking about the genetics of dwarf/ little people, the same trait found in dwarf snakes. actually in humans dwarf/little people actually suffer lots of health problems due to this genetic anomaly, but even then I don't think either is cruelty, so said person meeting a dwarf person falling in love with them, decide to have children, knowing full well you very possibly will be bringing dwarf children into the world is cruel? same thing as having a dwarf snake and breeding it, knowing full well you will produce dwarf snakes is cruel, thus my points, either is not cruel at all. its a personal choice, you find it sick to bring said dwarfism into the world, or you don't, its not a matter of cruelty it a person choice.

[smy_749]

how do you figure it not relevant lol its the same thing, someone found and adult retic that was very small, they realized by breeding it, that it produced much smaller adults, after 3 succesfull breeding they can now call it a dwarf, and with the success of the baby outcome they can determine is itc codom or recesive traits, dwarf/little people is a codom train in humans if im correct not sure 100%, but it has been proven that dwarf is a genetic anomaly, people who have children and either of the parents are dwarf, its a known fact you run a high chance of having dwarf/little people children of your own, im not talking about short people! LOL im stated dwarf/ little people, the same trait as dwarf snakes. so meeting a dwarf person falling in love with them, and having children knowing full well you very possibly will be bringing dwarf children into the world is the same thing as having a dwarf snake and breeding it, knowing full well you will produce dwarf snakes, thus my points, either is not cruel at all.

I don't think its 'cruel' because I don't think the snake suffers. But it is different. If a person chooses to have a baby with another dwarf, thats fine, because they chose it.

The problem is that we, humans, are choosing for the snakes, based on OUR interested. Again, I don't think its cruel because I'm not aware if there's any suffering going on with regards to the snake.

But your example is more like, me or you, of normal height, making 2 dwarfs have a baby. The retic doesn't pick.

[Freebody]

at the end of the day it a choice, I can choose to never bring dwarf babies in the world by not procreating with a dwarf/little person, unless the gene is already in my blood, a dwarf little person can choose not to procreate and adopt children, I can choose not to breed dwarf snakes, as to not bring dwarf snakes into the world. there truly is no difference. I can see your point tho, if the babies from the forced breeding had a lot of side effects like Jag syndrome I would consider it cruel, I have jags and will breed my jag, but I do find it a little cruel at the end of the day as the babies could suffer, but in dwarf snakes there is no risk of suffering. ie not cruel lol

[smy_749]

I don't think its 'cruel' because I don't think the snake suffers. But it is different. If a person chooses to have a baby with another dwarf, thats fine, because they chose it.

The problem is that we, humans, are choosing for the snakes, based on OUR interested. Again, I don't think its cruel because I'm not aware if there's any suffering going on with regards to the snake.

But your example is more like, me or you, of normal height, making 2 dwarfs have a baby. The retic doesn't pick.

My point is humans are selfish. If there was a gene that produced animals without eyes. Or animals without teeth. We'd still produce them as long as they looked cool to us.

[Freebody]

I do agree

[Mark Taylor]

I watched a documentary not so long back anyway the world biggest snake.

Titanoboa comes back to life! Smithsonian recreates world's biggest snake - a 48-foot monster which was largest predator after age of dinosaurs | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2119181/Titanoboa-comes-life-Smithsonian-recreates-worlds-biggest-snake--48-foot-monster-largest-predator-age-dinosaurs.html)

[lemon]

@ lemon mate she's a beauty what size is that girl

Hi Dave,

She was 18ft 8 inches last time measured and 6 years old.

[KORBIN5895]

I read this and I cant disagree more, I think it purely ones own opinion, has nothing to do with animal cruelty, that's like saying 2 normal people give birth to a dwarf/little person, they should kill it so it cant reproduce the genetic of dwarfism if that's a word < lol, or to save the person the cruelty of living as a small person? or people should not love that person based only on the fact they are small, and overlook there qualities and personality, people should just move on and find something they like in a regular size body, this also has to do with millers post just ofter yours as well where he agrees, its the same with dwarf snakes, I Love retics, I love how they are known to be the most intelligent snakes, very alert, they are my favorite, I happen to own a dwarf retic and I love her very much and I take perfect care of her and enjoy her just the way she is, I don't think by me keeping her its cruel in anyway, so what she wont hit 20 feet, and has pretty much topped out at 11 or so, I don't think shes suffering from the cruelty of someone breeding her. I do agree with what you said about the breed generally being smaller as the year pass, just like you said everyone breeds smaller snakes to keep it legal to own ie why I got a dwarf. and over time snakes will be released in areas they can survive in breed out and inevitably the species will be smaller, but it has nothing to do with cruelty imho, just my 2 cents.

You missed the point. He isn't talking about snakes that are genetically smaller as much as he id talking about people who "maintenance feed" to keep their snakes small. That's the difference.

[DeadlyDesires]

You missed the point. He isn't talking about snakes that are genetically smaller as much as he id talking about people who "maintenance feed" to keep their snakes small. That's the difference.


didn't read the whole thread, but why would someone want to do this?

[KORBIN5895]

didn't read the whole thread, but why would someone want to do this?

For some people tics are a status symbol but they don't want the actual responsibility

[DeadlyDesires]

For some people tics are a status symbol but they don't want the actual responsibility


thats stupid... dont get the snake if you cant handle the size....

[smy_749]

You missed the point. He isn't talking about snakes that are genetically smaller as much as he id talking about people who "maintenance feed" to keep their snakes small. That's the difference.

can you clarify terms used by people like prehistoric lets when they, slow grown not power fed, has the age not the size, etc etc. Is slow grown different or just another way of saying maintenance feeding, if not , where is the line between them. The terms are sort of confusing me now :-/

[Lankyrob]

Powerfed=fed as much as possible to get the greatest size as soon as possible

slow grown=fed the ideal amount and let the snake grow as it should

Maintenance fed=fed the absolute minimum to keep it alive but will stunt growth

[smy_749]

Powerfed=fed as much as possible to get the greatest size as soon as possible

slow grown=fed the ideal amount and let the snake grow as it should

Maintenance fed=fed the absolute minimum to keep it alive but will stunt growth

Ah ok, the slow grown I guess is what confused me. Its not really slow grown then, more like, normal grown. lol

[moshirimon]

What would you consider the absolute minimum and what what would you consider the ideal amount
I like to look at how they live in the wild. Although I am not sure exactly how often they successfully catch prey in the wild I am sure it isn't as much as the known "ideal" amount in captivity. Not saying that they should be kept as if they were in the wild, I just think some peoples ideal amount is too much.

[Ivanator]

What would you consider the absolute minimum and what what would you consider the ideal amount
I like to look at how they live in the wild. Although I am not sure exactly how often they successfully catch prey in the wild I am sure it isn't as much as the known "ideal" amount in captivity. Not saying that they should be kept as if they were in the wild, I just think some peoples ideal amount is too much.

I don't know for minimum, but for ideal, I feed my retics a rat or rabbit that's slightly larger than the thickest part of the snake's body. I'm curious to know what size other's feed theirs as well though.

[stephanbakir]

My female tics get a meal that is 130% their girth or smaller every 2 weeks, the boys get the same every 4 weeks.
Females are also my garbage cans who eat any refused food.

[StudentoReptile]

One thing to consider is that while wild retics don't eat often, they often eat huge meals than what is conventional in captivity. An adult retic may eat a whole deer, or a leopard or something and go months. Anacondas do the same thing. They may not eat anything during the dry seasons of their climate.

So unless you're throwing whole caimans, capybaras, or deer to your adult giants, the "natural feeding regime" doesn't cut it.

[Starbuck]

I'd pay good money to see someone with a giant feed it a freshly killed small white tail :) That would be quite the experience!!

[moshirimon]

My female tics get a meal that is 130% their girth or smaller every 2 weeks, the boys get the same every 4 weeks.
Females are also my garbage cans who eat any refused food.

That sounds like a good feeding schedule to me. Why do you feed your males so much further apart?


So unless you're throwing whole caimans, capybaras, or deer to your adult giants, the "natural feeding regime" doesn't cut it.

I agree, that makes sense. I was just talking about a lot of peoples idea of ideal. I just think its too much. I've seen retics that look thicker than burms (in proportion) and i just think theyre meant to be a somewhat more slender snake.

[smy_749]

we had a discussion about this in the varanid section and how far to go in mimicing the wild , and how far is too far. Its too complicated of a subject and theres not a clear cut line since we dont know alot of whats actually ideal and whats not, etc etc. I'd say no need to change whats ready working. Maybe the males are smaller ? About feeding a deer, Isnt there too much risk involved in that? Can the snake actually burst (like the famous pic of one swallowing a gator)

[StudentoReptile]

I don't think there has ever been a documented case of a snake "bursting" from eating too large of a meal. There have been some accounts of larger snakes eating deer or antelope and the antlers/horns will penetrate out of the stomach wall through to the skin. Allegedly, the snake digests the rest of the animal and the horns either get reabsorbed back into the stomach wall (maybe "reabsorbed" isn't the most accurate term, but you know what I mean) or they just fall off. Either way, the snake heals with a nasty scar, but lives on. I don't know how true that really is.

The infamous photo of the python dead floating in the swamp with an alligator sticking out of its burst torn-open belly is been discussed to death. There is no clear evidence that the gator "burst" open the belly of the python, as snakes this size and species prey upon small crocodilians routinely (the gator in question was only about 6 ft long). It is more likely the python successfully killed and swallowed the alligator, then later was killed by something else; either a larger alligator or a human that shot it. The head was either missing or pulverized to bits when the photo was taken. Or heck..maybe both, someone shot it, then another alligator started tearing up the remains.

[smy_749]

thanks for clarifying, always wondered About that photo. That and the python biting the bar b wire fence and the one with the human inside lol

[StudentoReptile]

The python biting the fence - If I remember correctly, the snake (an African rock python) slithered into a fenced-in area in South Africa where there was sheep or goats, swallowed one, and tried to come out the same way. Unfortunately for the snake, its distended belly touched the electric fence, which it apparently struck in retaliation, but of course, died.

I think I know which photo you're referring to with the human inside the snake. There's a handful of them floating out there, and most were hoaxes; i.e. people posing inside the guts of a killed snake for publicity.

[smy_749]

The python biting the fence - If I remember correctly, the snake (an African rock python) slithered into a fenced-in area in South Africa where there was sheep or goats, swallowed one, and tried to come out the same way. Unfortunately for the snake, its distended belly touched the electric fence, which it apparently struck in retaliation, but of course, died.

I think I know which photo you're referring to with the human inside the snake. There's a handful of them floating out there, and most were hoaxes; i.e. people posing inside the guts of a killed snake for publicity.

I figured as much with the human thing, but I didn't think of an electric fence for the rock P, thats unfortunate.

[millertime89]

bump, there are always people that need to read the article in the first post.

[millertime89]

Someone dug up a bunch of the old reports and quoted the fun parts, if I remember I'll look for the reports and post them here, but here's the excerpts in one nice easy place.
Serpent Research: Size Records for Giant Snakes (http://squamates.blogspot.com/p/sizerecords.html)

[smy_749]

I can blame them. If you can't handle it at full size then why at all? Why stunt and animal purely for OUR self gratification to keep it? That's a load of horseshit blaming it on politics and you and everyone else knows it!

That's PURE animal cruelty!

I agree. Unfortunately alot of the hobby has become about aesthetic appeal and pretty colors, not about reptiles. Just about who can come up with the craziest looking nonsense like scaleless snakes and blind albino monitors. I don't doubt that if a color morph was bad for an animals health but looked wonderful, we'd be seeing them everywhere.

Not to take away from those who truly enjoy keeping reptiles AND breeding morphs etc. , I just have issues with those who call everything that isn't white, orange, blue, whatever ....ugly. No appreciation for any animals true beauty anymore

For some reason I thought Aarons comment was the last one till my response got posted. Sorry I changed topic, but I'll leave it there anyways.

[millertime89]

So using dwarf locality genetics is wrong? Won't get any argument from me that maintenance feeding an animal to keep it small is wrong but when a snake won't grow due to genetics it won't grow. Evolution is a wondrous thing (usually).

I still say one of the best looking retics is a high silver normal.

[Aaron_S]

So using dwarf locality genetics is wrong? Won't get any argument from me that maintenance feeding an animal to keep it small is wrong but when a snake won't grow due to genetics it won't grow. Evolution is a wondrous thing (usually).

I still say one of the best looking retics is a high silver normal.

No problem with dwarf localities. Never said there was one.

Lots of people don't solely use them.

Even worse, if you want dwarf localities to be recognized as dwarf localities the lines should have been kept pure. Now they'll be banned because everyone needed dwarf morphs.

Just play with already small pretty snakes. Problem solved.

[smy_749]

Not saying wrong or right. Just disapointing to see people changing things to please them, as opposed to appreciating what nature has to offer. and even then, my beef is with those who ONLY enjoy color morphs, convenient packaging, etc.

[millertime89]

No problem with dwarf localities. Never said there was one.

Lots of people don't solely use them.

Even worse, if you want dwarf localities to be recognized as dwarf localities the lines should have been kept pure. Now they'll be banned because everyone needed dwarf morphs.

Just play with already small pretty snakes. Problem solved.

Politicians don't give a damn about subspecies or localities. They rarely use the most up-to-date science even when its presented to them in peer reviewed publications.

[Aaron_S]

Politicians don't give a damn about subspecies or localities. They rarely use the most up-to-date science even when its presented to them in peer reviewed publications.

That's your excuse? If they don't care why should we? That's the argument for doing it? You giant keepers get crazier by the day.

Let's not give them any more reason to.

StudenttoReptile made a very solid post about similar to this topic in another thread.

I'll just link it here....

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/850798-post69.html

[millertime89]

That's your excuse? If they don't care why should we? That's the argument for doing it? You giant keepers get crazier by the day.

Let's not give them any more reason to.

StudenttoReptile made a very solid post about similar to this topic in another thread.

I'll just link it here....

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/850798-post69.html

Don't go putting words in my mouth. I know you're not stupid enough to think people don't keep pure lines. Plenty of people, myself included, have pure dwarf and SD animals and they (and myself once my animals are old enough) make sure to continue to produce pure locality/subspecies animals. I'm trying to locate importers to bring in other pure SD/dwarf localities as well.

I'm reading the link, I'll get back to on that. I'm at work now so I don't have to work the holiday so my time is a little broken up to read longer posts.

[Sherman]

No problem with dwarf localities. Never said there was one.

Lots of people don't solely use them.

Even worse, if you want dwarf localities to be recognized as dwarf localities the lines should have been kept pure. Now they'll be banned because everyone needed dwarf morphs.

Just play with already small pretty snakes. Problem solved.
Why should we solely use them? I use dwarf stuff, and mainland stuff. I enjoy both. I keep both responsibly.

Unless they are classified as a completely different species (which won't happen, and if you think it will- go study some taxonomy and take a seat).

Just play with already small pretty snakes? Like what? Ball pythons and corn snakes? No thanks they bore me and frankly don't have the personality of a retic.

That's your excuse? If they don't care why should we? That's the argument for doing it? You giant keepers get crazier by the day.

Let's not give them any more reason to.

StudenttoReptile made a very solid post about similar to this topic in another thread.

We are crazy, but real keepers of giants, real dedicated keepers are not the problem, idiots are. Guess what- idiots will find a way to get hurt regardless. Whether it's owning a big snake, hots, a car too fast, or doing some other dumb crap, a few keepers being huge idiots should not punish everyone. I enjoy and love my big snakes.

I guess by your logic we should ban cars and liquor, because someone might be dumb enough to drink and drive and hurt someone, so lets get rid of them all JUST TO BE SAFE.

Please kid, take a seat.

[Aaron_S]

Why should we solely use them? I use dwarf stuff, and mainland stuff. I enjoy both. I keep both responsibly.

Unless they are classified as a completely different species (which won't happen, and if you think it will- go study some taxonomy and take a seat).

No reason to tell me to take a seat. I have done my readings and you clearly missed my point. Re-read it and try again.

Just play with already small pretty snakes? Like what? Ball pythons and corn snakes? No thanks they bore me and frankly don't have the personality of a retic.

Lots of other species that get larger and are pretty too. Suck it up and deal with it. I like wolves because of their personality but that isn't a reason for me to have one over a dog.

You've missed my point here as well because you've never read all my posts. I'm talking about the illegal keeping of the species. If it's legal where you are, it's less of a problem for me. I still prefer they were just out of the hobby.


We are crazy, but real keepers of giants, real dedicated keepers are not the problem, idiots are. Guess what- idiots will find a way to get hurt regardless. Whether it's owning a big snake, hots, a car too fast, or doing some other dumb crap, a few keepers being huge idiots should not punish everyone. I enjoy and love my big snakes.

I guess by your logic we should ban cars and liquor, because someone might be dumb enough to drink and drive and hurt someone, so lets get rid of them all JUST TO BE SAFE.

Please kid, take a seat.

That isn't my logic at all. You obviously can't tell the difference between something that can act upon it's own thoughts (live animals) versus something that is more or less a tool (that's a severe understatement but it makes my point)

Problem I have is that the few people who don't keep them properly are now placing the entire hobby in jeopardy. I for one just believe that if it's the entire hobby or the giants, the giants can be gone. We won't win this political war without breaking a few eggs. Sucks that your hobby is seen as dangerous.

For the record I do love and respect giants. I've owned them and worked with them. I just stick to my local by-laws because I'm not going to the cause for everyone to lose their hobby because I'm not selfish.

[Sherman]

Lots of other species that get larger and are pretty too. Suck it up and deal with it. I like wolves because of their personality but that isn't a reason for me to have one over a dog.
Wolves are entirely different, they aren't developed socially enough to be kept as standard dogs. If you're keeping one as you would a dog- I have a problem with it. If you're keeping a dog in a proper enclosure, with an 8'+ fence, 6' deep fence, and fed a natural raw diet- more power to you. I've worked with wolves and wolf dogs, they aren't bad animals and some people are more than capable of owning them.

Again, I'm not going to "suck it up and deal with it" other species of snakes are not fun to keep, why settle when I can do what I enjoy and what I love. I won't settle, I won't be a sheep.

You've missed my point here as well because you've never read all my posts. I'm talking about the illegal keeping of the species. If it's legal where you are, it's less of a problem for me. I still prefer they were just out of the hobby.
I'd prefer the cancer that is ball pythons out of the hobby too, maybe that way all the people who keep snakes/get into snakes for the money aspect would leave with them, but that doesn't mean it's a smart argument now does it.




That isn't my logic at all. You obviously can't tell the difference between something that can act upon it's own thoughts (live animals) versus something that is more or less a tool (that's a severe understatement but it makes my point)
Sure thing, I guess dogs should be banned to then? Especially bully breeds with the potential to do serious harm. Punish all owners because of the minority of irresponsible ones. Just because you want a mastiff, pitbull, rott, etc doesn't mean you should have one, just get a small dog, deal with it. ;)

Problem I have is that the few people who don't keep them properly are now placing the entire hobby in jeopardy. I for one just believe that if it's the entire hobby or the giants, the giants can be gone. We won't win this political war without breaking a few eggs. Sucks that your hobby is seen as dangerous.
Have you ever talked to politicians? They hear "boa" or "python" and get scared REGARDLESS of species. If you think giants being banned is going to stop them from going after ALL species of snakes you are fooling yourself and delusional. They wanted to ban ball pythons just as badly as giants originally, we fought it back to the few species that ended up banned.

All snakes are seen as dangerous, I've watched people freak out of corn snakes and boas, get real. To your experienced reptile keeper you have a point, to your average uneducated Joe- your words mean nothing. To HSUS- they don't care, and want them all banned regardless.

For the record I do love and respect giants. I've owned them and worked with them. I just stick to my local by-laws because I'm not going to the cause for everyone to lose their hobby because I'm not selfish.
My laws allow them to be legal. No one is going to lose their hobby because of me.

Giant keepers are on the front lines of this fight, we are the most passionate, driven, group of reptile keepers I've met alongside experienced varanid keepers. You don't see this level of passion, drive, etc out of most average bp or corn keepers. We bust our asses to keep our animals and protect YOURS from becoming next. If you think they will stop with giants- you need a serious reality check, you don't belong in this hobby.

[Amadeus]

Wolves are entirely different, they aren't developed socially enough to be kept as standard dogs. If you're keeping one as you would a dog- I have a problem with it. If you're keeping a dog in a proper enclosure, with an 8'+ fence, 6' deep fence, and fed a natural raw diet- more power to you. I've worked with wolves and wolf dogs, they aren't bad animals and some people are more than capable of owning them.

Again, I'm not going to "suck it up and deal with it" other species of snakes are not fun to keep, why settle when I can do what I enjoy and what I love. I won't settle, I won't be a sheep.


I'd prefer the cancer that is ball pythons out of the hobby too, maybe that way all the people who keep snakes/get into snakes for the money aspect would leave with them, but that doesn't mean it's a smart argument now does it.





Sure thing, I guess dogs should be banned to then? Especially bully breeds with the potential to do serious harm. Punish all owners because of the minority of irresponsible ones. Just because you want a mastiff, pitbull, rott, etc doesn't mean you should have one, just get a small dog, deal with it. ;)


Have you ever talked to politicians? They hear "boa" or "python" and get scared REGARDLESS of species. If you think giants being banned is going to stop them from going after ALL species of snakes you are fooling yourself and delusional. They wanted to ban ball pythons just as badly as giants originally, we fought it back to the few species that ended up banned.

All snakes are seen as dangerous, I've watched people freak out of corn snakes and boas, get real. To your experienced reptile keeper you have a point, to your average uneducated Joe- your words mean nothing. To HSUS- they don't care, and want them all banned regardless.


My laws allow them to be legal. No one is going to lose their hobby because of me.

Giant keepers are on the front lines of this fight, we are the most passionate, driven, group of reptile keepers I've met alongside experienced varanid keepers. You don't see this level of passion, drive, etc out of most average bp or corn keepers. We bust our asses to keep our animals and protect YOURS from becoming next. If you think they will stop with giants- you need a serious reality check, you don't belong in this hobby.

I can't believe I read all that jargon.

[Aaron_S]

Wolves are entirely different,[QUOTE]

What analogy would you like then? Tigers to cats? Guppies to great whites? They all hold water here considering we're talking about snakes who really aren't on the level of domestication as dogs or cats...yet you act like they are.

[QUOTE]Again, I'm not going to "suck it up and deal with it" other species of snakes are not fun to keep, why settle when I can do what I enjoy and what I love. I won't settle, I won't be a sheep.

The fact you say you aren't a "sheep" by owning one of the more commonly kept species is laughable. Giants aren't really rare.

You're one of those people who believe you should get whatever you want just because you want it, right? The world doesn't work that way.


I'd prefer the cancer that is ball pythons out of the hobby too, maybe that way all the people who keep snakes/get into snakes for the money aspect would leave with them, but that doesn't mean it's a smart argument now does it.

How is it a cancer? I see it as a really large contributor to you keeping your animals currently. It's really funny that you say we're sheep and that what we keep is "cancer" yet you're the first to ask us to "ban together" as a "community" to save you from every bill. To petition for you yet you can't even offer us respect.

You think nobody owns retics for money? Kettle meet pot. Pot meet kettle. You should get along.





Sure thing, I guess dogs should be banned to then? Especially bully breeds with the potential to do serious harm. Punish all owners because of the minority of irresponsible ones. Just because you want a mastiff, pitbull, rott, etc doesn't mean you should have one, just get a small dog, deal with it. ;)

Already are banned. Guess you really showed me huh?

Maybe when you can find an analogy that doesn't have a serious flaw I'd actually consider it. Dogs have a far higher intellect than a snake.


Have you ever talked to politicians?

Yes. I do on a regular basis. There's one that breeds snakes actually. They currently breed ball pythons, also has boas and at one time bred burmese pythons.

They hear "boa" or "python" and get scared REGARDLESS of species. If you think giants being banned is going to stop them from going after ALL species of snakes you are fooling yourself and delusional. They wanted to ban ball pythons just as badly as giants originally, we fought it back to the few species that ended up banned.

Have YOU spoken to a politician or just going off what you've blindly followed like a sheep from the mass hysteria you read on the internet? This sounds a lot like that.

In fact I've stood in front of two different councils for two different cities to get bylaws changed. They don't do what you just did if you present it properly. Apparently we needed the ball python guys to fix it and the giant keepers were too busy seeing who's got the "bigger snake". Am I right?

All snakes are seen as dangerous, I've watched people freak out of corn snakes and boas, get real. To your experienced reptile keeper you have a point, to your average uneducated Joe- your words mean nothing. To HSUS- they don't care, and want them all banned regardless.

Read above, you've certainly taken a drink from the sheep kool-aid they serve at giant keeper meetings didn't you? Think your somehow the most integral part of this hobby. The sad truth is that you are a minority. There's what truly 6? 10? giant species. I'm sure the hobby will live on with the dozens upon dozens of other ones.

I've spoken to many people frightened of snakes. A lot of bad information is out there but it's up to all of us to continue education.


My laws allow them to be legal. No one is going to lose their hobby because of me.

Have an escape and I beg to differ...


Giant keepers are on the front lines of this fight, we are the most passionate, driven, group of reptile keepers I've met alongside experienced varanid keepers. You don't see this level of passion, drive, etc out of most average bp or corn keepers. We bust our asses to keep our animals and protect YOURS from becoming next. If you think they will stop with giants- you need a serious reality check, you don't belong in this hobby.

It's all laughable. You aren't protecting squat. I've changed my by laws to allow the species I currently keep. Sorry kid, that's how it is. You've done nothing for me. I did it myself. The difference is that I have fact backing me. You don't have fact that they won't pursue ball pythons, I have facts that say they have.

In a local city they've recently changed their by laws from outright ban on boas and pythons and gone to the 3 meter rule. Guess things aren't so bleak as you make them out to be?

Lastly, as I've stated, I've owned and worked with giants. I've had a myriad of species throughout my life and I've been really lucky in the chances to work with what I have. Just because I choose a species that fits my current lifestyle doesn't mean I lack passion or love for my snakes.

Honestly, I have yet to see any true passion from a giant keeper. No drive really. Just taking large animals and shoving them into boxes. All I see are the same meat heads that park in parking lots with their stupid "suped" up cars. Just one big giant Richard size contest.

I'm now done with you.

[Sherman]

I guess it's different for you folk up in Canada, where you don't know what freedom is I guess.

I can make the analogy for anything, why own xyz when you don't NEED it? I've never asked ball python people to save my ***, I've lobbied and worked hard to show my big snakes in a positive light. I inform everyone I come across that of course their are bad keepers just like their are bad dog owners. Doesn't matter how smart a dog is- they still have killed people have they not?

Fact is, I make sure to let everyone know, and everyone see that every animal I have is behind a locked cage, in a triple locked room, I show the methods I use to ensure mine and others safety. Just become something has the potential to be dangerous doesn't mean it should be outlawed, that logic is the exact same garbage as the idiots who "want to ban guns" just because some criminals use them to commit crimes.

Guess what, ban the snakes, stupid people will still find ways to get them and mess up, that won't change. Ever.

[KORBIN5895]

And yet again Kyle has recruited someone to come and fight his battles for him. I think it's time to send Kyle packing as all he does is bring ******** here to save his pathetic hide.


Giant keepers are on the front lines of this fight, we are the most passionate, driven, group of reptile keepers I've met alongside experienced varanid keepers. You don't see this level of passion, drive, etc out of most average bp or corn keepers. We bust our asses to keep our animals and protect YOURS from becoming next. If you think they will stop with giants- you need a serious reality check, you don't belong in this hobby.

You sir are a complete moron. Nice dig at Canadians but it obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.

Giant keepers are a special breed of ignorant idiots with a healthy mixture of pure assholes. You guys think you are saving our hobby by championing your giants when in reality you are endangering the whole hobby just to keep what you feel entitled to keep. You are all a bunch of arrogant fools that are trying to compensate for your wee willies. Please go back to bigticslittledicks as you're not welcome here. We don't need any ignorant bigots.

[smy_749]

We are all sheep, some of us don't care, others try to look like goats to be different but... your still a sheep in the end despite thinking a retic or burm makes you eligable for a role on sons of anarchy

[red ink]

You boys.... you guys really have a knack for turning a 2 foot hognose and escalating it into a 18 foot retic.

[lady_bug87]

I guess it's different for you folk up in Canada, where you don't know what freedom is I guess.

I can make the analogy for anything, why own xyz when you don't NEED it? I've never asked ball python people to save my ***, I've lobbied and worked hard to show my big snakes in a positive light. I inform everyone I come across that of course their are bad keepers just like their are bad dog owners. Doesn't matter how smart a dog is- they still have killed people have they not?

Fact is, I make sure to let everyone know, and everyone see that every animal I have is behind a locked cage, in a triple locked room, I show the methods I use to ensure mine and others safety. Just become something has the potential to be dangerous doesn't mean it should be outlawed, that logic is the exact same garbage as the idiots who "want to ban guns" just because some criminals use them to commit crimes.

Guess what, ban the snakes, stupid people will still find ways to get them and mess up, that won't change. Ever.

If you think you're free than the education system down there is worse than I thought. The only thing you're 'free' to do down there is get fat and die poor.

You may champion for your big snakes but you and your kind have terrible attitudes and animosity towards the rest of the hobby.

Why should I and people like myself and other non-giant- keeping meatheads ally ourselves with you when you try to hard to alienate us? I hope they not only take all your animals I hope they destroy them. Acting like you all do towards others tells me you have the integrity of a boiled potato.

You and people like you are bottom feeders who use these animals to prove a point that you have no business proving. Pull your head from that dark smelly place and realize that without cooperating and not insulting the rest of us you're never going to win. Know why? Because people like me are going to keep signing whatever I have to to get giants banned. If that means I need to jump through hoops to save my own animals when the time comes so be it. There are more of me than there are of you.

And one more thing? I'd rather live in Canada then be a part of the melting pot of gross obesity you call home.

[Aaron_S]

I guess it's different for you folk up in Canada, where you don't know what freedom is I guess.

I can make the analogy for anything, why own xyz when you don't NEED it? I've never asked ball python people to save my ***, I've lobbied and worked hard to show my big snakes in a positive light. I inform everyone I come across that of course their are bad keepers just like their are bad dog owners. Doesn't matter how smart a dog is- they still have killed people have they not?

Fact is, I make sure to let everyone know, and everyone see that every animal I have is behind a locked cage, in a triple locked room, I show the methods I use to ensure mine and others safety. Just become something has the potential to be dangerous doesn't mean it should be outlawed, that logic is the exact same garbage as the idiots who "want to ban guns" just because some criminals use them to commit crimes.

Guess what, ban the snakes, stupid people will still find ways to get them and mess up, that won't change. Ever.

When you can refute actual points I make instead of taking digs at Canadians (truly shows your character and immaturity) then we can continue this discussion.

As it stands now, it's clear your agenda is to continue to not only make giant keepers look bad (Can't you guys send someone smart?)but your entire nation. Congrats you're now stupid for two groups!

[smy_749]

I love how americans think we are free too, thats good stuff.... as he talks about why he cant have big snakes and eventually any snakes

[Aaron_S]

This is what the latest post reminded me of...

"Freedom"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/Memes01/cousin_zpsc27540fd.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/godzilla99/media/Memes01/cousin_zpsc27540fd.jpg.html)

[guyabano]

"Freedom"


That pic made me giggle.

[MDT]

Silly Aaron...it's not A-murica.....it's just flat out 'MURICA....
I'm pretty sure you gotta spit after saying it too.


(disclaimer....I'm 'Murican)

[Sherman]

And yet again Kyle has recruited someone to come and fight his battles for him. I think it's time to send Kyle packing as all he does is bring ******** here to save his pathetic hide.



You sir are a complete moron. Nice dig at Canadians but it obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.
Kyle didn't recruit me to come here, I came here on my own accord, nothing to do with Kyle, he just happened to be here. Here in America I have certain rights, while a lot of you may not believe in freedom anymore here, I do, and I fight to keep it from the oppressive idiots like Obama in office. I'll keep what animals I like, I'll own what guns I like, and I'll do what I want with my life. Don't like it? Tough luck.

Giant keepers are a special breed of ignorant idiots with a healthy mixture of pure assholes. You guys think you are saving our hobby by championing your giants when in reality you are endangering the whole hobby just to keep what you feel entitled to keep. You are all a bunch of arrogant fools that are trying to compensate for your wee willies. Please go back to bigticslittledicks as you're not welcome here. We don't need any ignorant bigots.
Why do you need to keep Boas? There have been deaths to boas. Why hots? Death by hots. All snakes are demonized. You are the ignorant idiot if you actually believe that once giants fall- your snakes won't be soon after. did you not see the original list of snakes proposed and pushed for on the lacey act? One of the highlights for those too inept to read- BALL PYTHONS. Guess what, they went after the most harmless, popular, paraded snake IN THE ENTIRE HOBBY. They've already tried to go after your snakes. Yeah, they go after BPs, found in every petco, petsmart, reptile store, making up 80% of almost every reptile show, owned by children everywhere.

Part of the reason here in America you're permitted to keep your ball pythons is because so many of us giant keepers fought tooth and nail to keep ALL these snakes off the Lacey act. We rallied and we fought for you, we didn't abandon every reptile keeper despite what you may think, we still don't. We know full well that we are the front line, and if we let that fall, the rest of this hobby will be steamrolled.

If you think you're free than the education system down there is worse than I thought. The only thing you're 'free' to do down there is get fat and die poor.

You may champion for your big snakes but you and your kind have terrible attitudes and animosity towards the rest of the hobby.
I'm skinny, and I'm far from poor. Sorry I'm not a socialist and if you work hard here it's plenty easy to make something for yourself- although yes a lot of people get fat and sit on welfare, and that's no good.

I don't have a terrible attitude, except when bp keepers try to ram-rod their boring snakes down my throat, saying "get another animal". Guess what, I like my big dogs too, I'm a certified animal trainer. Guess what, I'm an exotics handler who has hands on zoo experience with nearly every species under the sun. I work hard to keep my rights to have these animals and have them safely. There is zero reason to punish the whole because of a few mad keepers who are terrible.

Why should I and people like myself and other non-giant- keeping meatheads ally ourselves with you when you try to hard to alienate us? I hope they not only take all your animals I hope they destroy them. Acting like you all do towards others tells me you have the integrity of a boiled potato.
Do you have children? If so, I hope they are taken and destroyed. Lucky you're not here to my face on my property saying that, you disgusting sack of trash.

I don't alienate most keepers. I'm good friends with nearly every bp/corn/etc breeder in my area. I have problems with the know it all mongoloids on the internet who know nothing yet think they can ram-rod their hate for giants down my throat. I've fought tooth and nail for bps just as much as giants, you fools are too ignorant to realize your bps are in danger of being taken too. So ignorant.

You and people like you are bottom feeders who use these animals to prove a point that you have no business proving. Pull your head from that dark smelly place and realize that without cooperating and not insulting the rest of us you're never going to win. Know why? Because people like me are going to keep signing whatever I have to to get giants banned. If that means I need to jump through hoops to save my own animals when the time comes so be it. There are more of me than there are of you.
And after my giants are banned (I'll still own them). I'll make sure we all just sit down and watch them ban your species too. No worries. I have these animals because I enjoy them, because their interaction with me is different than any other snake besides a king cobra. Go actually own, raise, and interact with a adult female retic, they are a hell of a lot smarter than you give them credit for, THAT is why I keep them- and monitors on the lizard spectrum.

And one more thing? I'd rather live in Canada then be a part of the melting pot of gross obesity you call home.
6'0 155lbs, I hate obesity too, but I'm not obese so who cares. Let others make their own choices.

I love how americans think we are free too, thats good stuff.... as he talks about why he cant have big snakes and eventually any snakes
Lololol.

As for the guy making the tiny **** comments.

I'll put $10,000 cash and we can send pictures to a mutual party, timestamped with our names next to a ruler- that mine is bigger than yours. ;)

[marvelfreak]

Lololol.

As for the guy making the tiny **** comments.

I'll put $10,000 cash and we can send pictures to a mutual party, timestamped with our names next to a ruler- that mine is bigger than yours. ;)
Are you talking about Red Ink?

[Sherman]

And yet again Kyle has recruited someone to come and fight his battles for him. I think it's time to send Kyle packing as all he does is bring ******** here to save his pathetic hide.



You sir are a complete moron. Nice dig at Canadians but it obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.

Giant keepers are a special breed of ignorant idiots with a healthy mixture of pure assholes. You guys think you are saving our hobby by championing your giants when in reality you are endangering the whole hobby just to keep what you feel entitled to keep. You are all a bunch of arrogant fools that are trying to compensate for your wee willies. Please go back to bigticslittledicks as you're not welcome here. We don't need any ignorant bigots.

Are you talking about Red Ink?

No- to Korbin. I'll put $10,000 down against him.

[Aaron_S]

Do you have children? If so, I hope they are taken and destroyed. Lucky you're not here to my face on my property saying that, you disgusting sack of trash.


You are the most disgusting human being I have ever had the displeasure of wasting my time on.

You really show us all the true colours you giant keepers have. Not ONE of you have ever shown to be an upstanding individual or show any actual intellect.

I won't even respond to the rest of your post.

[marvelfreak]

Deleted...

[infernalis]

Circus show is over folks.