Soil PH & Nitrogen content

[infernalis]

One subject I have never seen discussed about monitor husbandry is the quality of the substrate.

For instance Daniel Bennett mentioned once that nearly all of the Varanid feces he has examined in the field had a percentage of dirt in it and the minerals absorbed came into question.

The Savannahs are comprised of "sweet grass" from nitrogen rich soil and "sour grass" from nitrogen deprived soils.

Many species cannot thrive in regions of nitrogen deprived soil, One animal that can is the Rhinoceros who consume tons of sour grass and pass a nitrogen rich manure that enriches the soil and produces land that supports sweet grass.

These symbiotic relationships are the driving force of the entire planet's ecosystem.

If we follow the food chain backward, most prey items are herbivore / omnivore somewhere close to the bottom.

Slugs and snails (a favourite of Varanids) eat the vegetation grown in these soils, if you squish most insects, slugs and snails, they are full of green paste from the plants they consume. So any lizard consuming these lower life forms are also consuming the nutrients from the partially digested meals inside the prey.

So the grand question here is, does the quality of soil, the nitrogen content and PH have adverse effects on the health of captive Varanids? Has anyone ever studied this??

Weather patterns, temperatures, humidity & geological activity are the very elements that shape the evolution of species, are we doing more harm than good to the animal's overall health by removing them from the environment that they evolved to survive in and then placing them in an environment that WE think is best for them??

A thinking person already knows the answer has to be yes.

So is the solution to better match the substrate to reflect that of the lizards home environment?

It seems to me that most of the discussions about "gut load" are about calcium and vitamins, what about the nitrates??

[varanus_mad]

Hmmm certainly interesting... thats for sure. one of those areas that needs more study...

[infernalis]

When I get obsessed, I can't shut it off.....

One day I may even find myself in Ghana with a temp gun, hygrometer and core sample kit.

[infernalis]

I even came up with a theory about the rodent debate.

Because the sweet grass regions support a far more diverse selection of animals, there are more predators to compete for any rodents.

Rodents seem to fare well in sour grass regions due to lack of predators (The maned wolf capitalizes on this)

So it stands to reason that the monitors are in the sweet grass areas, and the mice are in the sour grass regions, so their paths seldom cross in the wild.

Make any sense?

[MoreliAddict]

When I get obsessed, I can't shut it off.....

One day I may even find myself in Ghana with a temp gun, hygrometer and core sample kit.
Lol! Don't they have a weather channel or something?

[infernalis]

Lol! Don't they have a weather channel or something?


Tell me this, does the weather service check the temperatures & humidity down inside burrows??

Do they pull soil cores and test for PH and nitrate content?

Weather is based on radar and satellite, so I don't think it's quite the same as the data I am after.

I want to know what is going on subterranean.

I would also like to know what the snails are eating, what is in the snails gut at the time of consumption?

[varanus_mad]

Lol! Don't they have a weather channel or something?

Crap for monitors they use surface temperatures first air temps second.

Yes that does make sense... more research LOL

The sweet grass areas will also be abundant with inverts... the damp etc...

[infernalis]

I own 14 acres of meadow, and over the last 35 years I have watched it turn to crap, once it was abundant with timothy, clover and other forms of sweet grass.

Now it's mostly weeds, goldenrod, thistle, raspberries and scrub.

The rodent population has boomed. so the snake population has grown too... so it's not all bad, herping in the back lot is more fun than ever right now.

Apparently the mice like the seed from the junk weeds better than the fine seed from clover and timothy.

[varanus_mad]

I like weeds... any small scrubs started encroaching yet?

[infernalis]

That stuff looks more like small trees than grass.

Killed a couple hogweeds, But only after I brushed my arm against it, My skin blistered up and got scabby where it touched me.

[beardeds4life]

You could probably pay someone that lives there to go out and get the info for you. Why did your land go downhill so fast?

[infernalis]

Why did your land go downhill so fast?

Mowing, no fertilizer, about 4 or 5 drought summers, a few harsh winters... Etc.

Birds bring in seed, wildlife get burdocks stuck to them and lay in my meadow and chew out the burdocks.

Meadows turn into forests if they are not managed.

If I mowed the whole field down, spread some horse/cow poo around it would snap back.

You could probably pay someone that lives there to go out and get the info for you.

Where is the fun in that?? I sooooo want to go photograph wild Savs anyway, why not make it all more meaningful by including a field study into the trip?

[varanus_mad]

Mowing, no fertilizer, about 4 or 5 drought summers, a few harsh winters... Etc.

Birds bring in seed, wildlife get burdocks stuck to them and lay in my meadow and chew out the burdocks.

Meadows turn into forests if they are not managed.

If I mowed the whole field down, spread some horse/cow poo around it would snap back.



Where is the fun in that?? I sooooo want to go photograph wild Savs anyway, why not make it all more meaningful by including a field study into the trip?

Exactly mate plus you know the info is accurate


I want to do that to... I hadnt considered doing soil studies into the bargain but good idea.

[beardeds4life]

Mowing, no fertilizer, about 4 or 5 drought summers, a few harsh winters... Etc.

Birds bring in seed, wildlife get burdocks stuck to them and lay in my meadow and chew out the burdocks.

Meadows turn into forests if they are not managed.

If I mowed the whole field down, spread some horse/cow poo around it would snap back.



Where is the fun in that?? I sooooo want to go photograph wild Savs anyway, why not make it all more meaningful by including a field study into the trip?

You should make the land bounce back. You might be able to make it scientific so some wealthy person pays for it.:p

[franks]

Hey wayne. First off, do you know that the rodent population is sparce in the regions of ghana that daniel bennett studied savannah monitor diets? I was under the impression that this area had abundant snakes.

[infernalis]

Hey wayne. First off, do you know that the rodent population is sparce in the regions of ghana that daniel bennett studied savannah monitor diets? I was under the impression that this area had abundant snakes.

Yes I am aware of that, The rodents are in the sour grass.

Not sure if it's because there are less predators, or if the vegetation in area with burned out soil produces bigger seed for them to eat.

[jarich]

I would also be concerned with saying that the group rodents is universal there. Its a large group of animals, with many different species, and I have a feeling that sweet and sour grasses wouldnt be the only determiner. Many rodents follow insect prey as well, so it stands to reason that there would be many in the sweet grass areas.

I think, as we know that savannahs make use of the giant cricket as a feeder, it might be more useful to follow what soil types the crickets use, rather than working backwards from the negative evidence displayed in the lack of rodents. Just a thought though...

[infernalis]

Just a thought though...


Keep the thoughts flowing.. thoughts are good.:cool:

[mo9e64]

The fact that they inhabit different niches would be a good argument if there was some kind of barrier between the two,i think that their are a multitude of reasons intermingled,it is puzzling there is so little evidence of rodents in their diet as their would be plenty of opportunity-i stumble across dead mice all the time in my walks and the ease of stumbling across a rodent nest would be an easy meal.Sometimes we make things more complicated,when it's just a whole lot of simple factors combined.All i know is they forage and correct me if i am wrong but they can pass hrough plenty of different microhabitats in sometimes a short period of time.

[infernalis]

The fact that they inhabit different niches would be a good argument if there was some kind of barrier between the two,i think that their are a multitude of reasons intermingled,it is puzzling there is so little evidence of rodents in their diet as their would be plenty of opportunity-i stumble across dead mice all the time in my walks and the ease of stumbling across a rodent nest would be an easy meal.Sometimes we make things more complicated,when it's just a whole lot of simple factors combined.All i know is they forage and correct me if i am wrong but they can pass hrough plenty of different microhabitats in sometimes a short period of time.

You are somewhat right Moe, however the populations congregate in the regions with higher nitrogen content in the soil.

We are not talking about the occasional nomad lizard, or the odd stray, rather the brunt of the population seem to be located either in the natural sweet grass zones or near farms where nitrates are added to the soil to promote vegetable growth.

[franks]

You are somewhat right Moe, however the populations congregate in the regions with higher nitrogen content in the soil.

We are not talking about the occasional nomad lizard, or the odd stray, rather the brunt of the population seem to be located either in the natural sweet grass zones or near farms where nitrates are added to the soil to promote vegetable growth.


... But.... (just to play devil's advocate here) the Savannah Monitor, like most predators, follow the prey. Where the prey goes, the predator goes. Largemouth bass shy away from very warm water, but when the food is in warm water, the bass move up to the warm water regardless. I would assume that these king predator lizards would for-go their ideal conditions for food sources.

[mo9e64]

That is what i think as well,in captivity we bring prey to the monitor so the soil chemical composition may not be as revelant.If in the wild that type of soil suports a larger concentration of their prefered cricket prey then it can be as simple as that.I think it has been shown that monitors as they age do get conditioned to eat a certain prey.

[franks]

That is what i think as well,in captivity we bring prey to the monitor so the soil chemical composition may not be as revelant.If in the wild that type of soil suports a larger concentration of their prefered cricket prey then it can be as simple as that.I think it has been shown that monitors as they age do get conditioned to eat a certain prey.

I think they only get "conditioned" to eat whatever is easily available for them. The older they get the more they understand the layout of their realm and what food sources are the best and easiest to find and consume. For instance, if you put a trey of large roaches on the left of your enclosure, and a trey of large crickets on the right of your enclosure, I think you will find that your sav becomes "conditioned" to go to the left of the enclosure for food when he is hungry. It is not because they learn to eat a certain type of prey, but because they understand what is available, easier, and more of a fullfilling meal. Adversly, if after time you removed the trey of crickets on the right and replaced it with a trey of pinkies or small rodents every day, you will find that your sav will become "reconditioned" to go to the right of his enclosure when hungry. This is why, in the wild, savs seek out giant millipedes for food instead of taking hours trying to dig rodents out of burrows that may or may not have a hungry snake inside. Very interesting stuff.
I am extremely interested in learning the effect that the absence of plant life in out man-made enclosures has on the quality of substrate and consequently the life of our lizards.

[varanus_mad]

I think they only get "conditioned" to eat whatever is easily available for them. The older they get the more they understand the layout of their realm and what food sources are the best and easiest to find and consume. For instance, if you put a trey of large roaches on the left of your enclosure, and a trey of large crickets on the right of your enclosure, I think you will find that your sav becomes "conditioned" to go to the left of the enclosure for food when he is hungry. It is not because they learn to eat a certain type of prey, but because they understand what is available, easier, and more of a fullfilling meal. Adversly, if after time you removed the trey of crickets on the right and replaced it with a trey of pinkies or small rodents every day, you will find that your sav will become "reconditioned" to go to the right of his enclosure when hungry. This is why, in the wild, savs seek out giant millipedes for food instead of taking hours trying to dig rodents out of burrows that may or may not have a hungry snake inside. Very interesting stuff.
I am extremely interested in learning the effect that the absence of plant life in out man-made enclosures has on the quality of substrate and consequently the life of our lizards.


Cracking mate... Lovely sentiments good post.