Question: Ethics in the reptile business [Archive]

Aztec Fred

01-19-03, 08:19 PM

Ok Folks,

I have a question.Lately I have pondered on this, though it has been on my mind for a long time. Why are people "respected" in this Industry when they sell sick animals, misrepresent animals, give poor customer service and ship poorly?

I have seen, and heard of and talked to people that often took really bad care of their snakes and lizards, yet were respected in the herp community as a whole. I dont get it, not at all,.
I have seen people, with established businesses and nice websites, sell *wild caught* ball pythons as captive bred babies for three times the amount.And had customers rant and rave about the quality they received from that same vendor.
I dont get it......
I have seen Pet Shop owners, maintaining their snakes in DEPLORABLE conditions, with old urates in the cages, dried feces, filthy water bowls(Or no water bowls at all and dessicated snakes as a result) And these same shops harbored literally DOZENS of mites per snake, around the orbit of the eyes, everywhere.....

Yet...these same shop owners post pictures on servers, boast of their latest breeding accomplishments and even organize and run herp societies, and shows.
I dont get it...........

At what point do shop owners, breeders, and show organizers finally become *responsible* for their animals and business practices? Anybody can make a mistake, but I am not talking about 1 isolated incident ,I am talking about a way of doing business that is masked in goodness, but in reality is as bad as the worst wholesaler/importer-with snakes dieing and sick and full of mites...and all this masked in their reputation or connections. Politics......plain and simple. I am from the U.S.A., but this law applies everywhere.

I just dont understand how people can function on this level and still do so well in this business.Is it truly "Quantity" over "Quality"?
Does the public have such a short memory or are they so blind that they dont see the connection between what is being said by these people and what they actually practice in real life...at their homes, with their animals, at their shops at their warehouses?

Any answers?

Sincerely,

Fred Albury
Aztec Reptiles U.S.A.

Youkai

01-19-03, 08:58 PM

Money talks.
It's the same in Canada as it is in the US. Some places are around despite constant poor care of animals. Often it's because they support certain things that wouldn't get the financial help otherwise. Sometimes people just pass stuff off as rumors.

I won't name names, but I've experienced/heard of a lot of crap of some Canadian vendors, but people still kiss their butts like it's gold. And you're right, it's politics and money.

I just stay away...

rattekonigin

01-19-03, 09:02 PM

Great topic, Fred!
One hypothesis I have regarding this particular subject is that people purchasing animals from these breeders/dealers hear a couple of good things about them and automatically assume they do good business and practice good husbandry without ever really looking into it further...I mean, how many people, when they decide to purchase a reptile, actually ask to see the breeder/dealer's facility? I know this isn't always possible, like when acquiring animals from across the country...but it's always good practice to know if the animals you're buying were kept well...
When people buy dogs from reputable breeder, they are encouraged to visit the breeder's home and see the conditions in which the animals are kept...and this practice isn't limited to dogs, even fancy rat breeders suggest that one should always inspect the husbandry practices of the breeder before you buy the animal...
I have yet to hear this sort of advice offered in herpetocultural circles...Most people never see the facilities in which their animals are born and raised, they either purchase the animal at an expo, or have it shipped, or arrange to meet the breeder at a different location...So, when they get this animal, and it thrives in their care, they assume that the breeder/dealer was keeping it well...but just because the animal thrives under someone else's care and doesn't show any signs of disease or mistreatment doesn't mean that it wasn't kept in a feces ridden cage with dirty water...as we all know, reptiles take longer to develop "symptoms of bad husbandry" than their mammalian cousins....
The people who get a "raw deal" and end up with a diseased animal from such a breeder (which may very well be an infrequent occurence despite deplorable conditions) don't always tell many others about their bad experience with that breeder...
Sometimes, when they do try to offer their opinion, they are quickly and efficiently shot down (and verbally attacked) by that breeder's many staunch supporters, many of whom haven't necessarily had business dealings with the breeder themselves, but are backing this breeder because they happen to be aquaintances or partners, or have heard the glowing reviews and refuse to believe there might be a less than perfect facet to their practices (Here's where the politics come in!)...
I have seen this first hand on a number of occasions in public reptile forums (even this one)...
So, that's my 2 cents...

Lisa

01-19-03, 11:17 PM

Its like any business, you're going to have good apples and bad apples and apples that look good but are rotten at the core.

silke

01-20-03, 09:55 AM

one of the things that really disappoints me is when people complain about certain vendors, breeders or stores yet they lack the integrity to boycott them

if you don't like what you see and experience don't go back...don't put more money into the wrong people's pockets
if enough people have the fortitude to stand by their convictions then these bad apples will rot away to nothing

ReptileHQ

01-20-03, 10:35 AM

Amen, Silke

Chris

Dilshad

01-20-03, 10:59 AM

It cuts both ways...as I once mentioned on another forum, some people will be yes-men and back someone up solely because they're friends, or because they're hoping for a kickback in the form of better deals or access to coveted items/events, while others will slag someone just because they don't like them, and all these things carry weight, maybe more than they should.

Throw the online world into the mix, where people can go off half-cocked or display belligerence that only the distance and relative anonymity of the internet affords them....and you have misinformation, rumours and half-truths, coupled with shouting matches and popularity contests. All opinion and zero fact to back it up. It's sad, because it hurts the hobby, creates unnecessary rifts, and sometimes the wrong people profit from it.

Personally, I don't see the point of asking for testimonials on the Web, I'd rather see for myself and bypass the popularity contest.

I have a cynical outlook about this and it's a somewhat unpopular stance. It often rubs people the wrong way and I know it, mostly from all the stuff people think doesn't get back to me. ;)

The point is, don't take anyone's word (including mine) for things. Go see for yourself, think critically, don't turn a blind eye. Luckily, there are some excellent breeders and retailers in Ontario for us all to choose from. On the whole, there are some great people in herps, and I believe that as much as some things stay the same, others will only get better. :D

Linds

01-20-03, 11:28 AM

Ethics in the reptile industry? With every year that passes I lose more faith that such a thing even exists. It seems just when you think you have found someone that is halfway deserving of the label "respectable [breeder/dealer/keeper]", something rears its ugly face. Its such a shame that this industry seems to attract such people - and that these innocent, amazing animals suffer under them. The competition, the money, the "status" - they want it all and its all at the expense of the animals. These animals don't deserve to be exploited, they shouldn't be viewed as a commodity, they are lives - unfortunately not enough people share my opinion......

marisa

01-20-03, 01:06 PM

Linds that was a good post.

It is sick because certain breeders and dealers and what not seem to feel like there is some sort of popularity contest to see who has that "status" but in reality that "status" of look how big my store is, look what I got to breed before anyone else, is a status in a group of people who keep reptiles, and the rest of the world could care less. *L* And its something so stupid that animals sometimes suffer for, and people argue about, and they way they treat others who don't have their "status". Taking sides because someone bred a lizard before someone else or a snake...haha its stupid....I'll start being chummy and butt kiss like when I see someone post that they bred, laid and hatched a clutch of snake eggs without a snakes help, and on their own. *LOL*

Marisa

andrea

01-20-03, 03:06 PM

It is unfortunate to say the least, and it is in any animal breeding. We went out of town once about ten, eleven years back to buy another Dalmatian when we were keeping them. I would have thought the man was great, his facilities wonderful and clean. Had I not seen the conditions of his non-Dalmatian animals. There were like seven baby Beagles in a little rabbit hutch with a board down over one side of the wire floor for them to lay on, about four or five feet above the ground. ANd countless other things wrong with other dogs. We brought one of the beagles when we had not really intended on two more dogs, cuz we felt sorry for them. It stayed very small, the size of a newborn pup for the six months that it lived.

Not only is it true that you cant trust people's word online, but it is so easy to fake all this good praise. Make a few IDs on a message board and post some good praise for yourself. And for some reason people get fanatical about the people they buy their reptiles from. They get one good deal and swear that this is the best breeder in the world, when they only bought once from them, over the internet and never spoke even on the phone with them much less saw their facilities.

It also goes the same with bad reviews on someone. Someone has a bad experience, or doesnt fulfill their end of a deal, and could even be to their own fault, who knows, and talks down a breeder unfairly. YOu never know the situation if you do not KNOW the parties involved.

But you know, it isnt just animals. Anything where any lives are involved, human or animal, there are no ethics no matter how much they say there are. People dying in ER's after waiting six hours to get in to a see doctor, being denied treatment for lack of insurance, and even if you have insurance, something i am dealing with right now, they want you to pay ahead for some services so I am having to put off my daughter's dental appt. until I and my insurance can pay up front. It is sad. No life is sacred anymore.

Thanks for depressing me, Fred, lol

andrea

Kyle Barker

01-20-03, 04:13 PM

My way of doing things is this: I dont buy from pet stores, except crickets from a store that doesnt deal in reptiles. I have personally seen almost all of the peoples setups, animals that i have bought from. I dont deal with anyone who intentionally buys wildcaughts for the sole purpose to re-sell, i am totally against taking them from the wild just to make a few bucks. Its too bad there are people out there that dont seen to care about their animals (*cough*creatures).

kyle

paul_le_snake

01-20-03, 10:49 PM

youkai, good post. maybe its time to name and shame these sh*thole "breeders" for what they are..no more than two bit importers covering over the craks in their knowledge and respect for all animals. alot of ppl here seem to get god worth for having a gold trophy next to their name...why? does it mean that an independent ajudicator has vetted them? that these ppl can spout crap and every schlub believs it????
now i'm not saying that every trophy person is full of sh*t, just some
cheers
paul

asphyxia

01-21-03, 11:01 AM

Note some of us trophy holders just want to help support Jeff and this site and for the amount it cost it is money well spent in my books

But yes Paul if somthing is aloof we should speak up and name names

Regards
Brian

paul_le_snake

01-21-03, 10:10 PM

not wanting to sound like a big headed boaster, but i was lucky enough to meet richard ross (senior author of the good book, captive reproductive husbandry of boas and python) and he is so fed up with the commercialisation of reptile "keeping" that he is now authoring books on freshwater stingrays. says alot to me when a true pioneer of this 'hobby' can be so disgusted with whats gong on that he turns to fish....................BLOODY FISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

brig

01-22-03, 03:41 AM

My theory is this...

Most people start out small, as an interest or hobby, go into business, and have the best intentions.

Not all, I grant you - but I'm thinking of people I actually know, here.

And then, it grows. And grows. And if they're really good, knowledgeable or just plain lucky, grows some more.

At some point, without them realising, the balance tips from caring for each animal, to having a wall of merchandise - the sort of merchandise that does need the odd mouse chucking in, and a bit of a clean out now and then, but the sort of merchandise that doesn't wail if it isn't looked after properly, and doesn't appear sick until far too late...

And it can be too late for the business by then.

I see it in all sorts of industries, not just animals, and it's a case of 'not seeing the wood for the trees', or 'biting off more than you can chew', take you pick of metaphor.

It's just that it's sickening when it is animals, and I'm completely with Linds on this one - it's a life, and one that we humans have chosen to take responsibility for, whether by breeding it, or by taking it from the wild.

Some people just need to take more responsibility...

Just my two-pence!

M_surinamensis

01-22-03, 06:30 AM

I'm not certain how things stand on this situation in Canada but here in the United States there is a pressing need to temper that desire to see bad dealers put out of business with a bit of caution as to how one goes about it. There are too many third party organizations here that are more than happy to see the reptile industry halted and destroyed, it makes it almost unsafe to make public comments about the bad guys in the industry because these organizations will jump all over any excuse to shut the pet trade down as a whole.

An easy and recent example can be found in California- the city of San Francisco took the Petco corporation to court over the conditions the local stores were keeping the reptiles in. Seems like a good situation, right? A retailer that was displaying inappropriate care conditions (this can be said of the stores in San Francisco, I'm not willing to categorize the entire chain in that light) is being shut down, made to take responsibility for their actions, tremendous victory... except... That court case strongly influenced public opinion. By public opinion I do not mean the opinion of those within the herp industry, I mean Joe Shmoe off the street corner who thinks black racers will roll into a hoop and chase you... This opened the door for those radical organizations to propose and introduce legislation that damages the industry as a whole, rather than just targeting that group of bad guys.

I fully agree that bad dealers/breeders/brokers and even bad hobbyists should be removed from their practices but I feel it should be a predominantly internal matter. With better public education from people who actually want to see the herp industry flourish as a whole in a positive manner, those bad guys will eventually be found out, outed as INDIVIDUALS rather than as falsely representative individuals of the industry as a whole and they will eventually go away as it becomes impossible for them to make money. Sure new bad guys are always going to drop up, some fool who thinks that he's had an original thought to rip people off, but as education becomes better and internal regulation becomes stronger (I do not mean regulation in the sense of formulated codes of behavior or action, I simply mean the industry looking out for itself) those people will have a harder and harder time getting away with it. The fact remains that the herp industry (in the united states anyway) is still MOSTLY a lot of people who already have reptiles buying or selling more reptiles, there is an increasing number of keepers who do not fit the traditional mold of a "reptile guy" or "snake lady" but it remains the responsibility of the educated and experienced individuals to guide the industry as a whole.

Basically what I meant by all of that was... education from those directly involved with the industry is far better than regulation from any outside source. Education covers not just basic care but ethics, morals, responsibility and the sharing of positive or negative experiences with individuals within the hobby.

Just as a bit of a side note; I personally don't see anything wrong with the legal collection of wild specimens for resale. The captive populations do need an influx of "new blood" to maintain genetic diversity (look at bearded dragons) and proper health, the collection is approved and legal in certain numbers that have been determined by multiple sources to be safe to collect without damaging the wild populations and the individuals who take the time to get wild caught animals dewormed, feeding and into sellable condition deserve whatever minimal markup they choose to add.

The above statements constitute my opinions, opinions I am willing to debate for what they are, but not something I am stating everyone should unthinkingly agree with, I am merely presenting my thoughts on the matters.

V.aw

01-22-03, 01:26 PM

To Linds, No iam not picking on your or anything.. But your post is kind of hypocritical. Ive seen you gloating and raving about certain pet stores. One that hosts this site ( i wont say just because iam not going to be banned over a post) And i know a quite a few people will not even step foot into that store due to mite problems, and the general care of their animals. Maybe iam wrong. I think you'll probably get wind of who iam talking about, so maybe you can clarify this.

And before people start claiming iam accusing them, as i know quite a few people host this site, but there is one right on the top that has links all over the place too. Iam sure you can figure this out without really getting annoyed. Sorry to all those who are offended by this post. It's just something ive noticed, and its something that really makes me boil.

V.aw

01-22-03, 01:40 PM

Oh, just to clairfy one thing as well. I forgot Ssnakess.com has their own store now. I'am not directing this post at them, as they are the main store support for this site. Iam talking about the other :)
ssnakess store isnt bad!! so dont get my post confused heheheh

paul_le_snake

01-22-03, 09:07 PM

LMFAO, quality posts v.aw, but could u be a bit more helpful..i have no idea what store ur referring too????? ROTFLMAO

sSNAKESs.com

01-22-03, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by V.aw
One that hosts this site (

I wasnt aware that i owned a pet store... This site is hosted by me and Laurynn.

sSNAKESs.com

01-22-03, 09:47 PM

For those who are not aware of what is going on, Port Credit Pet Center in Mississauga wholesales the online store. This site is owned and operated 100% by myself and my girlfriend Laurynn and our moderation team. Your feelings about our online store or our suppliers are fine, but please dont get it twisted and state facts that are not true.

V.aw

01-22-03, 10:02 PM

Jeff, that is why i had the second post saying that what i said was unrelated to the snakes store. And the main supporter of this site is pcpc. linked to your online store or not still has a bad reputation for their animal care.

I wasn't refering to yourself or the people you mentioned in your post. sorry for the confusion.

sSNAKESs.com

01-22-03, 10:05 PM

Adam, I knew what you were getting at, but in the above post you had said the store that hosts the site, but the site is owned by myself and Laurynn only and it is hosted on my unix box. =/ i was just clarifying for those who could have been confused. :D

paul_le_snake

01-22-03, 10:15 PM

just out of intersest, what is ur connection to pcpc jeff?

sSNAKESs.com

01-22-03, 10:23 PM

On a personal level outside of the reptile industry altogether, the owner (Grant) of PCPC is a friend of mine. On a buisness level, PCPC wholesales the dry goods for the online store.

V.aw

01-22-03, 11:05 PM

doh, ok stupid me. sorry for the spam

Linds

01-22-03, 11:32 PM

V.aw,
Now I am terribly confused :confused: I have NEVER gloated or raved about ANY store. Would you care to direct me to such a post??? The only thing I have ever said about any store is the store I work at... Kris' Reptiles... that the animals there are always cared for to the best of the stores abilities, have clean water, and are well fed. Now this store has never had any affiliation with this site in any way, as far as I know I'm the only person from that store even to visit this site. So ya know, this is starting to come across as picking and its wearing really thin. It seems you are looking for something wrong with my posts - and now making material up altogether. So be careful before you label me a hypocrite... everything I have said in that post was nothing short of my most sincere and honest feelings, and it sickens me that anyone would think otherwise. I care about these animals more than anyone could ever know. I value them above all else. If you can't see that, well, then that's that - but in the future please be more careful when throwing labels and accusations.

V.aw

01-23-03, 01:12 AM

Linds, ive been on this website for awhile, as have you. Don't act like you've never recommended port credit to anybody. Ive seen it done, and ive seen many people recommend this store. Their rep isnt very good at all, and i requested someone to say why their rep shoul dnbe saved. And you have recommended this place in the past. Why?

Linds

01-23-03, 01:38 AM

Letting someone know that I had seen the animal they were looking for at PCPC is a far cry from "gloating and raving about". PCPC happens to get in alot of animals that can be extremely difficult to come by in Canada, such as locality specific rosies, and if someone is having trouble finding a particular animal, and I know Grant has it, why should I withhold that info??? Would you feel it better that I lie and say that I do not know anyone that has what they are looking for? I have never once commented on the store itself, the practices, or anything - I simply answer questions that are asked. Nothing wrong or immoral about that.

Matt_K

01-23-03, 03:19 AM

For someone that said they weren't going to slander a store you're sure throwing names around now.. Is it so hard for people to bite their lip?? If you dont like the store, then dont go there, plain and simple..

sSNAKESs.com

01-23-03, 05:36 AM

Ok, all personal feelings aside here, i can speak for myself with a 15 animal collection, there are days when i walk into my reptile room in the morning and it is just crazyness, if someone was with me they would probably think i kept my animals in poor conditions but really i just saw the mess and it needs to be cleaned up. This is with 15 animals. Could you imgaine 250+ animals, lizards, colubrids, not just boids who poop once every 2 weeks, plus wholesale going out the back everyday, to all over the gta. People dont see the big picture, i have been there more times then i can count and sure a few times i saw a messy cage, but other times it was pristine conditions. There is no way you can run a operation like that and have it 100% clean 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. Reptiles are messy animals, they do to there habitiat how they see fit, flip water bowls, defecate wherever and whenever they choose to, the messes are cleaned up as quickly as they are found. The "bad rep" that they have is mostly from people who feel the need to jump on the bandwagon. I am not defending anyone here, i am stating the reality of owning a reptile operation of that size, retail and wholesale and from my personal experiences in going there on "numorous"occassions.

silke

01-23-03, 09:45 AM

ok Jeff...i have held my tongue...
over turned water bowls and poop aside there are other conditions which can make for a worse impression such as cramped enclosures and insufficient lighting and these are conditions which are within a keepers control and are not things that can change from one minute to another
there is no excuse for cramped enclosures...if you know you are getting animals in you prepare for it and have things ready ahead of time
we are not talking about newbies who need to do research ahead of time but about people who have been doing this for years
now i'm sure some of you will be more than willing to point out that i have not been 'herping' for very long and i am not Nearly as experienced as you may be but these are lives that we are responsible for and some things should be common sense

PS - AztecFred - way to open a Big Ole can of worms dude !!!
:D

V.aw

01-23-03, 11:17 AM

oh man oh man. Reading the post by matt, man that was arrogant!!

Aztec Fred is an American speaking of problems down there and what flips him off. So i stated we have the same thing up here. a respected store, and a respected guy, and most of us cant understand what he's respected for? (refer to silkes post) I dont think i even had to mention the store name, everyone probably had a good drift of what i was talking about.

And matt, i dont dislike the store because i dont like Grant or something. or because i don't like its name. I dont like the store because of the conditions the animals are kept, and i feel a store like that should not profit from this or even be allowed to remain open. I think thats a very good reason NOT to bite my tongue. or tie my fingers in this case..

I figured id give my opinion as this thread opened my eyes to some problems our way. If people choose to ignore it. fine go for it. everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. I dont see where i once said in my post that others shouldn't shop there. I feel between mine and Fred's post they should be able to put one and one together, and make their own decision. I dont "bite" my tongue when animals are being "abused". I've only been in the store a couple of times, and the conditions IMHO were atrocious.

V.aw

01-23-03, 11:21 AM

Jeff on top of that. IMO once again, i feel that you shouldnt keep that many animals if you arent prepared to make staff available to care for them as need be.

Instead of ordering, say 60 savannah monitors and cramming them into a tank for the sole purpose of making a buck by wholesaling them. Why not buy 10? and as you need more, order more. Or expand your space as silke said if you recieve that many. And jeff, you say your conditions are comparible. Iam sure you have a thing called quarentine methods dont you? I really really doubt your methods are anything like theirs.

I dont want to argue to much about this, just because I like this website, I thinK jeff, and the other mods do a great job and are very helpful. I just added to this post as i read aztec freds thread and like i said, it all related.

V.aw

01-23-03, 11:42 AM

Ughh sorry for the multiple responses.
my post to Linds is. I dont recommend anyone to others that i dont personally buy from. I know you had good intentions on telling someone about the animal available, so i apologize if that came off sounding as if i was attacking. I just wanted to hear others opinions on the store, incase mine was a little too strong, or maybe i went there on a bad day. Iam just going by the couple of times ive been in there on top of the amount of complaints ive seen. So, lets hear some other people tell us their good comments about pcpc.

jason h

01-23-03, 12:02 PM

OK V.aw
how exactly is a store that has as many animals "weekly" go in and out supposed to quarantne you can have a quarantine room sure but you get say 10 burms this week put them in the quaratine room next week you get 10 balls where are you supposed to put them? you cant put them on the floor and you cant put them in the room with the burms because if you did the burms would have to stay in quarantine even longer there fore nothing would ever leave the quarantine room period because as more animals go into said room they could affect the animals that have been there for an month.
I have delt with grant on many occasions and bought n many hard to find snakes etc from him .If you as a buyer did the right steps when gettting and animal such as quarantining YOUR new arrivals and knowing they are coming from a store that deals in as many reptiles as grants then you as an experienced well researched buyer should have no problem.
Also you have to realize that grant also takes unwanted animals that the public walk through the door with,which accounts for many of the animals that are underweight or have scars etc. and are not that way do to the condition grant keeps them in.
And as far as grant earning respect in the reptile world all you have to do is pay attention to what goes on around and you can see ,when boamania asked for help when he had bad luck while everyone else was treating him like@##$ Grant was the one who stepped up and gave him feeders (another store that could possibly take potential bussiness away) yet he gratiously offered his assistance.its stuff like this that has given Grant his well deserved respect!!!
and as far as our little gold trophies they are there because we care enough to give back to this site for our endless hours we enjoy from it!

V.aw

01-23-03, 12:17 PM

Look, i didnt mean for this post to go this far. I just wanted to see how others saw PCPC. And i felt that Aztec fred's post was well done. Ultimatly theres nothing that can be done, iam a little guy with absolutly no say in what goes on. So dont let my opinion bother you. Its just my opinion, wrong or right iam still entitled to it. I dont need endless responses trying to convince me that iam wrong to change my mind. Grant is a helpful guy, I know this. I never said he wasnt. I just really dont agree with the large amounts of animals coming in and out if they aren't prepared to handle it. And no, i've never been in that situation of having that many animals to care for at once, and my collection is only about 25 animals, so i could only imagine. But my question to myself is, would i put myself in that situation? I mean, i have a hard enough time caring for my collection. The store is there on a typical 9-5. Their job is the animals. If i was with my collection 9-5 it would be completely immaculent. I apologize for any stupidity or false opinions that this may have caused, ive been in the hobby for a couple of years and worked in a few stores to know what kind of crap goes on in the trade, and its pretty depressing. Iam not out to attack individuals, i just think about the animals.

Lovely Monica

01-23-03, 12:42 PM

hello, i just want to include, We have been to Port Credit, and I never seen anything wrong with the way the animals are kept there. All the enclousers seemed to be clean and well kept. It was nice to see such a large selection of reptiles. We even held a few of the snakes and on a closer inspection, the animals we held at least seemed to be extremely healthy and alert. I understand the work which is involved in caring for alot of animals. My boyfriend has been keeping snakes since he was in grade school, and since he has been in his early teens he has always kept over 50 animals at one time. We presently have over 300 boa's that are in our own personal collection. Its a constant choir changing and cleaning their bins, we keep them in a rack system, its easier maintainance. We use paper towels, and although this may be more costly then newspaper, it cleaner and healthier for the animals. We also house well over 100 colubrids and they are the messiest of them all, their bins get washed and changed twice a week. But there are days when we come in and it seemed that every single animals decided to soil their enclousers at the same time. A conspiracy I tell yeah!!! *LOL* But if someone was to come in on that day, they would think we keep our animals in poor condition. Come back later on that day and then seen how they ar kept. So sure one might go into Port Credit Pets in the morning and see that some of the enclousers are soiled, but come back later on that day and see the difference. Grant has some really hard workers in his store, I seen how busy they keep themselves personally. So I would venture to say that one can not truly cast an oppinion on a place unless they have visited it time and time again and then only then can they make an honest opinion, so unless you have seen psps on a number of visit then I say, dont be so quick to judge.
Grant has been in this business for many years, you dont have that kind of longevity unless you are doing something right. So if he had such poor quality animals then why has he lasted so long.
thanx!!! :cool:

Grant vg

01-23-03, 01:52 PM

on the subject of pet shops in generel, ppl really have to realize that unlike a private breeder,......

with 300 animals in tight fitting rubbermaid racks and condensed stackable plastic and melamine enclosures with paper towel as substrate, sterile water bowls, and one hide, if any,

a store has that many animals, if not more, along with many different species, with different requirements, then most keepers could care to keep, not to mention the fact that most pet stores need to keep there animals in visible aquariums, with attractive looking substrates, vines, etc ... something i know all private breeders would go insane trying to maintain on a daily, or up to the hour cleanliness. And keeping every single enclosures substrate completely clean by changing them daily or weekly is alot of money down the drain.

Along with...100+ customers comming through daily asking questions, calling for directions, prices, animal inquiries, and so on and so on. Not to mention getting up EVERY DAY, Doing the same thing day in and day out to hundreds of animals. Along with daily/weekly/monthly "owning a business" duties like accounting, etc...
As well as bad times like some of our candian stores are having right now, still having to pay employees to stay in the store and clean poop all day.
And to put the cherry on the top, having your inventory, along with wholesaling if applicable, changing daily and weekly. Thats like a private breeder having hundreds of animals comming in and born weekly, having to get them all quarantined, fed, wormed, etc...then sold, then doing it all over again the next week for 52 weeks a year.
Just to keep your customers happy and to pay the bills.
Sounds like a great job eh?

With all this said, give pet shops a break, i know i wouldn't be in this hobby if there were no pet shops around.
This isn't directly related to Grant Crossman, whos in question, but all pet shops everywhere.
Sure, most of the pet stores keep animals in less then perfact conditions, to what i would keep em. But thats life.
Thats why we are keepers/breeders and they are pet shop owners. 99% of us on these forums could not handle the pet shop life.
I have a hard enough time settleing in 5 new aquisitions.
let alone running a buisness and dealing with hundreds of animals.

Personally, i dont like the way most animals are kept in pet shops, as thats not what i would keep them like.
But what are they're options?
The standards of keeping reptiles are quickly rising, and most pet shops are slowly following.
And to think, highly Respected Mr. Roy Stockwell, used to keep bloods in plastic garbage cans as thats how they got them to feed and stay healthy back in the 80's.
Times are changin, dont be so quick to lay the slap down.
I know i have in the past, and after reading this thread, i think ill give pet shops a little more slack then what i did b4.
It all cant be perfect, but its those that rise above and beyond to mimic private breeders that should be acknowledged, not the less then perfect ones getting bashed.
Look around, these stores are open. :D

Gvg

sSNAKESs.com

01-23-03, 02:02 PM

Breeders vs Pet stores... I do the same thing here aswell, but if you really think about it, really how humane is it to keep adult ball pythons in a sweaterbox, which ALL ball pythons breeders do.

V.aw

01-23-03, 02:04 PM

Gvg, Very good points.

However, i worked in 3 seperate pet stores. One running a reptile dept all on my own. We had at least 100 animals, and i was taking care of all of them making minimum wage. I worked in a mall, forced to deal with a HUGE flow of customers, and answer alot of phone calls, as well as deal with these wholesalers(all of which for min wage). It isnt an easy job. i completely 100% agree. Just keeping a store open is an amazing feat these days with all of the taxes. I just do not agree with the current ethics, and my point of view wont change until i see some changes, BUT as i said, iam a little guy my opinion means diddly squat :).
But as you said everyone has to make money, and as monica said he has been around for a long time. And i do applaud him for that. I dont think many people would be able to run an independent pet store for the amount of time that he has.

sSNAKESs.com

01-23-03, 02:06 PM

Quarentine in a pet store???? Adam what are you thinking bro??? Say you quarentine the animals for a month, and you have 300 animals... well you have to feed those animals at least twice, so you just paid an additional 1500$ to feed them while in quarentine, so there goes your profit.

sSNAKESs.com

01-23-03, 02:07 PM

Adam, which pet store in a mall has over 100 reptiles??? im just curious because i have been to every mall pet store from oshawa to oakville and i have never seen more then 25 animals tops in any mall pet store?!?

marisa

01-23-03, 02:36 PM

Don't like it don't buy there.

Thats been the "motto" I have learned in the past three years.

marisa

sSNAKESs.com

01-23-03, 02:40 PM

I can even put my own husbandry down, when i think about humanity, how humane is it for me to keep a 6 foot boa in a 4 x 2 x 12" enclosure... Sure that is the rule of thumb people use, but really if you think about it isnt "humane" at all to keep a snake which in the wild climbs trees in a cage that is 4 x 2 x 12" high. You guys also have to realize that pet stores offer temorary housing for animals, the idea is to sell the animal(s) to someone who gives them their permanent home.

V.aw

01-23-03, 02:48 PM

Jeff i pm'd you some info.

Your point of keeping a boa in an enclosure of those dimensions is kind of beside the entire point. Your boa is fed, and fed well i presume. I Dont see how you feed an animal, and monitor it's well being when its kept with a billion others. Its very difficult.

My main point (which i think alot of you missed) is that the profit is put before the animals too often these days. I think in the huge fuss over whats worth what we forget about the well being of the animals. I also believe its extremely hard to get your point accross through text. So iam gonna stop this thread before i make an even bigger a$$ of myself.

NiagaraReptiles

01-23-03, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by V.aw

My main point (which i think alot of you missed) is that the profit is put before the animals too often these days.

If you truely understood the reptile industry as much as you claim to, "having worked in 3 different pet stores.......", you would not have attributed/instigated this slanderous thread. Instead you've decided to point fingers at retail stores (one in particular) for some sort of self gratification. Get a grip on reality and don't talk about things that you haven't seen for yourself, nor even inquired about.

Without Grant there would be a bylaw in Toronto that would read "NO reptiles." I'm sure no one understands the effort he and very few followers went through to have this changed and settled on a reasonable bylaw.

Without Grant there would be a lot fewer private breeders. Instead of bashing w/c's and so on, why not think about why 90% of the store consists of CB baby snakes/lizards/etc. Did you also know that he spends more money buying from Canadian breeders in order to support the hobby here and not save a few bucks by bying them in the US?

Just the tip of the iceburg.........

tHeGiNo

01-23-03, 05:11 PM

Ok, well I have just read every single post on this thread and thought I just HAD to post something. Alright, well being relatively knew into the herp community, I am not the most informed. I will state that I have heard slander about PCPC, from others not on this forum. I just thought I would say they are not all together a bad company, or to my perspective not a bad company at all! I had just recently purchased a CH Ball Python and besides the whopping price I paid of 190, lol, I am extremely pleased with the quality of the animal presented. He is feeding like a pig and is mite free. I couldn't be happier with my newly found friend, and thought I would just state that. I do not want to elaborate on anything anyone has said as I do not wish to flare up another argument. However I would like to say the following: before you slander a company as a whole, or an individual, think of what they do and put yourself in their position before you decide to trash talk. That is it :)

tHeGiNo

01-23-03, 05:19 PM

Alright I apologize but I just had to say this. Grant is a great guy. I have only met him once but he seemed to be really nice. LOL I would have been done this post already but my snake was on my neck, then I noticed he no longer was LOL. He went for a little strole but now I found him. Anyhow, this goes directly to V.aw without any hesitation. If you think you could do a better job then Grant, then go ahead and show me. Until then, there is no need to refer trash talks directly at an individual or company.

rattekonigin

01-23-03, 05:24 PM

You can't own a pet store and put the animals before the money, period. You need to turn a profit to stay open and the care of the animals has to take a certain cut-back as a result of this (ie. lack of quarantine, having too many animals, etc...) You've all stated this. So, I rest my case...the animals are not coming first. In the case of ANY business money comes first, point finale.

I've never been to the pet store in question, so I can't/won't make any comments regarding that particular situation.
BUT...
I, personally, don't believe that any pet stores should be allowed to sell animals at all. The vast majority do not take adequate care of their animals, they don't provide care infromation to would-be buyers, and they get their animals from dubious sources (ie. puppy mills...the stores say "breeders" and "local families" which are both factual statements, but these "local family breeders" run puppy mills!)...

And, from what I've read, V.aw wasn't slandering anybody...he merely stated his observations...he never bad-mouthed the proprietor of the store, it's not slander.

This thread has become a perfect example of what I mentioned in my last post...people jumping down other people's throats when they state an opinion that the dealer/breeder's supporters don't like...it's completely unecessary for you all to go off like this...State your countering opinion, but don't attack the guy just because he doesn't agree with you!

In Addendum: If it were the case, it wouldn't be slander, it would be libel...Also, I believe that in these situations, there has to be malicious intent behind the libel/slander.

slander
n.
Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.

libel
n.
A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
The act of presenting such material to the public.

paul_le_snake

01-23-03, 07:57 PM

jeff, u said that ALL ball python breedres keep them in sweater boxes. well speaking about my personal work experiences..at work we have 3.7 breeder ball pythons that are right now being kept in 3 groups in 5x2x2 vivariums. not all breeders are dictated to by space.
cheers
paul
ps i'm not saying that keeping them in rubbermaids is a bad thing, but its the bare minimum. survival over thriving?

V.aw

01-23-03, 09:22 PM

As far as slander goes here, i havent once said Grant isn't a good guy. I said his store is not to my standards, and i really disagree with alot of the things he does there. I never slandered anybody.

I have nothing personal against Grant. I stated, that the last time i was in there i saw some things i really didn't like. And i know quite a few people who share my opinion. I read Fred's post and it all came down to the one conclusion. I posted my opinion, and its the classic case of being pissed off about something you dont like to read and decide to join the "bandwagon" as some of you like to call it.

chappy

01-23-03, 10:33 PM

thegino: dude I remember and it may still be there a post where you were claiming PCPC ripped you off for charging you 190 on reptile rescue. so take your own advice dude

I think everyone here has valids points. I have never been to PCPC because the rocket doesnt go that far lol I can however vouch for the fact that Adam was in charge of reptiles in a petstore with easily more then 100 crammed in a small space because thats where I met him.

I guess my post is kind of pointless but I felt leftout

Nick

Lovely Monica

01-23-03, 10:59 PM

Check out the horrid and appalling conditions of the way we keep our animals at Boa Mania, :) , just kidding, these are just a few of our arboreal Cages with a few lizard tanks on top of them.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1164aboral_cages-med.jpg

We also have a large number of 3 foot and 4 foot cages made simuliar to these ones. I will take lots of pics tomorrow, just so you can get the sense of how we are housing the animals in our store. All cages have plastic trays, for easy removal and cleaning. We are trying to create a new age atmosphere. And promote proper husbandry methods to our customers.

heres a zoom in !!! :)

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1164green_trees-med.jpg

marisa

01-24-03, 01:24 PM

I just wanted to add that also, I have agreed I didn't like certian conditions but knowing that **** happens I returned quite a few times to PCPC and in fact was pleasently surprised. So much in fact I purchased my Pueblan Milksnake there.

Not only is he free of mites but he ate within two days of arriving here, a thawed pinkie, and hasn't stopped since. I also think you would all agree with is a good qaulity animal.
<img src="http://members.rogers.com/mattl/1Shervous01-19-03.jpg">

Just wanted to post some good things. There is always a good side and a "bad" one.

Marisa

Dom

01-24-03, 02:24 PM

I admit it,

The first time I went to his store I was a bit skepticle and judgemental and told many ppl how I was disapointed with the care of his animals.. Many cages were dirty and many animals were not in the best of conditions .. since then, I have gone several times in the past 2 years and I can tell you ..I simply went on a bad day!

I have a lot of respect for Grant. I have purchaseda few animals from a caimen to a carpet to even my rock python ... wich have done all amazing as well..

Everytime I have been there he has helped me out .. answered questions .. even found me a hotel when I need a place to sleep over..

Where I work, we have over 250+ animals and at times its dirty and at others its clean .. after feeding 15 snapers fish, the next day or two after .. u have no idea how bad it smells.. bad enough to make u think they had not been cleaned out in months!

My point is, he is a man who has worked ofr a wel deserved reputation .. true i would not keep my animals as he does BUT they are only temporary cage until YOU give em the loving home they need.. Petstores are here to stay and as much as i hate em because anybody can aquire an animal, I have been able to find many interesting and hard to find animals through Grant ..

I look fowar d to seeing waht he has to offer...

Just my thougs

Dom

Linds

01-24-03, 02:43 PM

I will not gloat and rave about PCPC, I have only been in the actual store once, and I wasn't horribly impressed. But Grant has always been good to me, and the fact remains that PCPC is one of the founding sources for reptiles in Canada, and supports the industry (in ways such as the Metro Toronto Reptile Expo and providing hobbyists with animals that they may have trouble attaining in Canada's struggling industry). I have purchased animals from Grant in the past (one of which is the most beautiful little redfoot I have ever seen...lol...of course that is the most unbiased opinion o> jk), and have plans on it in the future. There's definitely alot I don't agree with, but on the other hand there is also alot of good. By the sounds of all the testimonies it sounds like I may have just stepped in on a bad day, so I am looking forward to being pleasantly surprised in the future :)