Sav Eating Her Own Eggs?

[AjaMichelle]

Hi

My savannah monitor seems to be eating her own eggs.

Does anyone have any input?

If so, I can provide further detail.

Thanks in advance!

I've been finding WHOLE intact eggs, as well as small, prune-like remnants, in her poop (water) bowl. These eggs have all been consumed, not laid in the bowl.

Intact Egg One:
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/6df69a05.jpg

Intact Egg Two:
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/Savannah%20Monitor/P7170475.jpg

Egg Remnants
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/Savannah%20Monitor/P6280404.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/Savannah%20Monitor/P6280405.jpg

My Girl
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/Savannah%20Monitor/P7100419-1.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/Savannah%20Monitor/P7100424.jpg

Photo from last night
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/Savannah%20Monitor/P7160471-1.jpg

She's 15 to 16 months old and exactly 2 feet total length.

[AjaMichelle]

Dissecting Intact Egg Number Two

Dissecting the Second Mystery Egg.MP4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwufKMLiJks&feature=plcp)

[varanus_mad]

Infertile - therefore waste not want not

[AjaMichelle]

Well yeah! :) But I was curious if anyone has anything to add to this... like should I be concerned about anything? :)

[infernalis]

I think Crocdoc (David) had good answers.

Can't wait till Gregg sees this one, He and John (squamata concepts) deal with eggs, so maybe he will have something to offer.

I have been following this eagerly, One day Cera will hopefully be laying eggs, so this whole mystery interests me greatly.

[AjaMichelle]

I think Crocdoc (David) had good answers.

Can't wait till Gregg sees this one, He and John (squamata concepts) deal with eggs, so maybe he will have something to offer.

I have been following this eagerly, One day Cera will hopefully be laying eggs, so this whole mystery interests me greatly.

Crocdoc is amazingly helpful! :) I know that Gregg and John are members here, as well as about five other people that don't seem to frequent HC much anymore. :)

I was hoping to see if anyone else had any other input to add to what David already told me.

I think this is pretty exciting! I just hope everything is okay with her.

[infernalis]

I think this is pretty exciting! I just hope everything is okay with her.

Me too, it's quite obvious that you are extremely fond of her, and I would hate to see anything bad happen at all.

[Gatorhunter1231]

Egg #2 doesn't look like it has been digested to me. I feed my infertile snake eggs and a few tristis eggs to my ackie and nothing egg like comes out the other end after it goes through digestion. More importantly-where is your female laying these eggs? Is she making an effort to nest them correctly (tunneling under soil to lay). It would seem to me that she is stressing, laying the eggs on the surface, and then consuming them later.
Interested for sure but with details of the enclosure then its all theories. Im curious on what Dave's opinion was.

[varanus_mad]

Well yeah! :) But I was curious if anyone has anything to add to this... like should I be concerned about anything? :)

Do you know how they were nested?

That's what id be concerned about getting nesting right is important with varanids.

[infernalis]

Im curious on what Dave's opinion was.

Here you go.........


It's not common, but I have seen a female monitor eat some of her own eggs because, apparently, she instinctively 'knew' the eggs were not viable (I say this because the monitor in question, a perentie, had laid normal clutches previously). By all means, search that enclosure for more eggs and if you find any that look viable, incubate them regardless, as there have been instances of parthenogenesis observed in a few monitor species so far. My guess, though, by the thinness of the shell as seen in your video that the eggs were only partially shelled slugs.



It doesn't sound to me like they've been nested at all, but laid on the surface somewhere and then eaten. Once females nest them properly they bury them and don't dig them up again.

That doesn't mean you haven't provided proper nesting as there may be other things at play. Females don't always follow normal nesting behaviour with infertile eggs, poorly shelled eggs, although it is always healthier if they do. Was she digging a lot around the enclosure prior to laying these slugs?

[Gatorhunter1231]

Lol basically the same as I said.

What is surface temp of basking spot and humidity levels?

[AjaMichelle]

Thanks for posting what Crocdoc said! :)

Egg #2 doesn't look like it has been digested to me. I feed my infertile snake eggs and a few tristis eggs to my ackie and nothing egg like comes out the other end after it goes through digestion. More importantly-where is your female laying these eggs? Is she making an effort to nest them correctly (tunneling under soil to lay). It would seem to me that she is stressing, laying the eggs on the surface, and then consuming them later.
Interested for sure but with details of the enclosure then its all theories. Im curious on what Dave's opinion was.

So if you feel like Egg #2 doesn't look totally digested, do you think it was laid in her water bowl?

Do you know how they were nested?

That's what id be concerned about getting nesting right is important with varanids.

I only know that she's been digging a lot lately and spending more time in and around her burrow, behavior I have never really seen before.
I know it's so important! I did my best to provide what I thought was a proper nesting site. Now I need to figure out what's wrong with it.

Lol basically the same as I said.

What is surface temp of basking spot and humidity levels?

She has two basking spots that cover her SVL. One is 140*F and the other is 150*F. This wasn't intentional, it just worked out this way. Her ambient humidity is 70 to 80% throughout most of the enclosure and 60% near the basking spot. She has 12 inches of a soil/sand substrate throughout. Her enclosure is 5 feet long, 2 feet deep, and 3 feet tall.

Last I checked, the substrate near the basking spot is 85*F and it's 80*F throughout the rest of the enclosure.

I've been meaning to verify the soil temps but she's been in her burrow so I haven't been able to.

[varanus_mad]

Thanks for posting what Crocdoc said! :)



So if you feel like Egg #2 doesn't look totally digested, do you think it was laid in her water bowl?



I only know that she's been digging a lot lately and spending more time in and around her burrow, behavior I have never really seen before.
I know it's so important! I did my best to provide what I thought was a proper nesting site. Now I need to figure out what's wrong with it.



She has two basking spots that cover her SVL. One is 140*F and the other is 150*F. This wasn't intentional, it just worked out this way. Her ambient humidity is 70 to 80% throughout most of the enclosure and 60% near the basking spot. She has 12 inches of a soil/sand substrate throughout. Her enclosure is 5 feet long, 2 feet deep, and 3 feet tall.

Last I checked, the substrate near the basking spot is 85*F and it's 80*F throughout the rest of the enclosure.

I've been meaning to verify the soil temps but she's been in her burrow so I haven't been able to.

Soil temp soil depth soil type...

Erm hope that helps...

soil temps id try and keep them with a range of 80 - 90 at different depths...

id also dig up the entire enclosure there very good at hiding eggs...

[AjaMichelle]

Soil temp soil depth soil type...

Erm hope that helps...

soil temps id try and keep them with a range of 80 - 90 at different depths...

id also dig up the entire enclosure there very good at hiding eggs...

What about soil temps and soil depth? I need to change them?

I know I need more substrate and am moving her into a larger enclosure in the next week or two. She'll have 2 feet of substrate.

I already went through and did my best to find eggs. I didn't recover any.

[Gatorhunter1231]

I think the cool have easily been laid there. Your basking temps are high enough they she should compeletly digest a lightly shelled egg. The water may be her comfort zone. Looks like she is dedicating there to. She needs more soil depth as you know and possiably more humidity judging by dedicating in the water. Is the top air tight? Ambient air temp needs to be around 80. Soil temp will hold near that and increase temps near basking spot. Variation will let her choose. May need mess with your soil also. Either more sand or dirt in some areas so she can find her perfect spot. Good luck.

[AjaMichelle]

I think the cool have easily been laid there. Your basking temps are high enough they she should compeletly digest a lightly shelled egg. The water may be her comfort zone. Looks like she is dedicating there to. She needs more soil depth as you know and possiably more humidity judging by dedicating in the water. Is the top air tight? Ambient air temp needs to be around 80. Soil temp will hold near that and increase temps near basking spot. Variation will let her choose. May need mess with your soil also. Either more sand or dirt in some areas so she can find her perfect spot. Good luck.

To the contrary about egg digestion... I have been told that varanids are not capable of completely digesting their own leathery eggs. And her temps appear to be spot on. Basking spots of 130*F t0 150*F and a cooler area of 75*F to 80*F.

She's going to move into an enclosure with 2 feet of substrate shortly (I'm currently building it).

She only goes into the water for a quick rinse when she's covered in dirt from burrowing or when she needs to take a poop. She never just lies in it. Her ambient humidity is 70 to 80% throughout most of the enclosure and 60% near the basking spot.

Her enclosure is virtually air tight. I'm hit in the face with humidity and heat when I open it. It's like 95% sealed.

I increased her substrate to 18 inches in the interim while I finish her enclosure. I verified her substrate temps before adding more substrate and temperature ranged about 15 degrees F (measurements taken with Acurite probe)
--- 95*F at the entrance to the burrow
--- 90*F 6 to 8 inches down
--- 85*F 8 to 12 inches down
--- 85*F to 80*F from middle of enclosure to "cool" area

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Does anyone have an idea about how I should lay out the substrate in her next enclosure? Should I put different stuff in each area? I'm not sure what to do... I was originally going to use my soil/sand mix...

[varanus_mad]

What about soil temps and soil depth? I need to change them?

I know I need more substrate and am moving her into a larger enclosure in the next week or two. She'll have 2 feet of substrate.

I already went through and did my best to find eggs. I didn't recover any.


basically yes... dunno what sort of soil your using at the moment possibly increase the ratio of sand to soil... that may do it...

id also be tempted to wack a big box in there full of some soil thats totally different to what your using at the minute.

[Gregg M]

Hey Aja,
I wold have to say that your sav is not eating her eggs. She is laying them in the water dish. This is usually a sign that she is not finding a proper nest area to properly lay her eggs. Monitors will properly nest even infertile eggs when given the right nesting conditions.

Good news for you is the fact that she laid the eggs and did not retain them and the situation is 100% fixable. Even after you put 2 feet of substrate in the cage, you should still offer a nest box. Most of our varanids will spacifically pick a nest box over any other spot in the cage no matter how many other good options they have.

Hope this helps.
Gregg

[infernalis]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone have an idea about how I should lay out the substrate in her next enclosure? Should I put different stuff in each area? I'm not sure what to do... I was originally going to use my soil/sand mix...


I used the same soil throughout, not sure if that helps.. Maybe a more experienced person can correct me if I am wrong.

[AjaMichelle]

basically yes... dunno what sort of soil your using at the moment possibly increase the ratio of sand to soil... that may do it...

id also be tempted to wack a big box in there full of some soil thats totally different to what your using at the minute.

I'm using a mostly soil, sand mix with some bark chips and coconut fiber mixed in.

Hey Aja,
I wold have to say that your sav is not eating her eggs. She is laying them in the water dish. This is usually a sign that she is not finding a proper nest area to properly lay her eggs. Monitors will properly nest even infertile eggs when given the right nesting conditions.

Good news for you is the fact that she laid the eggs and did not retain them and the situation is 100% fixable. Even after you put 2 feet of substrate in the cage, you should still offer a nest box. Most of our varanids will spacifically pick a nest box over any other spot in the cage no matter how many other good options they have.

Hope this helps.
Gregg

Thanks Gregg! That was very helpful! With what should I fill the nest box? Straight soil without anything else mixed in? Where should I put it in the enclosure? Where should I put the hole in the nest box? The temps should be nearer to 90*F right? How big should it be? Can I use a rubbermaid container (solid not opaque)?

I used the same soil throughout, not sure if that helps.. Maybe a more experienced person can correct me if I am wrong.

You're using soil you dug up right?

[Gatorhunter1231]

Your temps sound spot on. I was looking for that info to make a better assumption about whether she was eating the eggs. If she eats it then it will not look like an egg after. There might be shell pieces but not a whole egg that you can disect later. I had on a few occasions feed infertile ackie eggs to tristis and tristis eggs to ackies not to mention snake eggs which are basically the same. One egg is very dark and yucky like a prune. It was retained for some time and looked to be on the brink of rotting. Greg touched the most important part of it all which is the fact she didn't retain and go egg bound.
P.S sorry for previous post above. I answer from my phone and it automaticly plugs in words that it thinks I want.

[infernalis]

You're using soil you dug up right?

Yes, from the creek bank out behind my house.

I would not recommend that to everyone, because I live in a very clean unspoiled area, and that creek is a protected aquifer, we drink that water without hesitation.

My soil is the sandy clay buildup that washes down from the hillside when it rains, it didn't even have any rocks in it..

When muddy water evaporates, it leaves that behind.

Great stuff.

http://www.chompersite.com/cage_files/dirt.jpg

[crocdoc]

I wold have to say that your sav is not eating her eggs. She is laying them in the water dish.

My money is on those eggs having gone through the digestive system of a monitor. They're way too stained, manky and shriveled (in the case of at least one egg) to have been simply laid in the water.

[Gatorhunter1231]

Dave- you don't think they would have been better digested considering temps. I'm just basing this on feeding ackie eggs to tristis and visa versa. That nasty egg is super nasty but I had one croc egg that was brown looking since she laid it in a muddy area (first clutch) it wasn't shriveled like that egg though. Once again assumptions since I didn't see the eggs in question in person (setup, time lapse when eggs laid till found etc)

[crocdoc]

I've seen monitor eggs that have gone through the digestive system of monitors with a 60C basking spot and they were intact, shrivelled and heavily stained, exactly like the shrivelled one in the photograph.

[bodiddleyitis]

If she eats it then it will not look like an egg after. There might be shell pieces but not a whole egg that you can disect later.

I've found quite a few reptile eggs in monitor feces and the shells tend to be more or less intact

[Pirarucu]

I am also curious as to how big and where in the cage everyone's egg boxes are, particularly for ackies. I am looking to purchase a trio later this year if possible, and it would be nice to not have to dig through the entire cage looking for the eggs, particularly since I intend to make the cage a palace..

[crocdoc]

With ackies you are better off not using a nest box, but making the substrate itself suitable for nesting.

[Gatorhunter1231]

Agree with dave. Its not that hard to find ackie eggs. The first time or two is but you will figure out that your female lays close to the same areas. Mine generally lay 13-18in down and 6in from the basking spot. The third and fourth time I pretty dug directly to the eggs in about 10mins

[Pirarucu]

Alright, thanks. I'm planning to go with a 6'x3' so I was a bit concerned about digging them up. Especially since I'm going to pile the cage high with branches, cork, rocks, etc. And yes, I was planning on making the whole cage suitable for nesting anyways, nest box or no nest box.

[AjaMichelle]

Hey everyone! Thanks for reading my post and responding! :)

An update on Liam:
I'm about half-finished assembling her enclosure. She's also finished cycling. :) She's slender and toned. I found about 15 eggs total--- all eaten, all pooped into her poop box. She's still eating and acting normally. I'll have her in her enclosure before she cycles again.

Everyone cross fingers for some parthenogenesis lol!!! :)

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/P8140223.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/P8140225.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/P8140250.jpg

Amazing new burrow!!!
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/P8140240.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/P8140240_01.jpg