HYBRID'S how best to.....

[shaunyboy]

with all the HYBRID threads,popping up on here lately it got me thinking.....

what would give you a greater chance of successfully crossing,an EGG laying species x LIVE bearing species

would you be better crossing,an EGG laying MALE,with a LIVE bearing FEMALE

OR

would you be better crossing,a LIVE bearing MALE with an EGG laying FEMALE

i would love to hear your thoughts on the matter and how/why you reached your conclusions

also do you think genetically,one female would have a better chance,or an advantage,of conceiving over the other female ? (live bearing,versus,egg laying)

THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR.....

DISCUSSING THE MORALITY OR THE ETHICS OF HYBRIDS

so if you do not like this thread or have nothing positive to add to the discussion,PLEASE refrain from reading or posting

cheers shaun

P.S.i have NO intention of producing hybrids,but i am very interested in their genetics

[Wildside]

I just don't think it's in the makeup to successfully cross an egg layer to a livebearer. I've heard stories of people who attempted this but never produced any viable offspring for whatever (*cough* bullshit) reason. I mean you'd be trying to line up two completely different reproductive systems. How could a body even begin sorting out what to do with that?

[Aaron_S]

I agree. Even though someone from another forum mentioned how livebearers just internally "incubate" the eggs and that each baby comes out in a tiny sac which is like a thinned out version of an egg shell.

I just don't see how a snake that gestates for 4 - 5 months can somehow operate to gestate less or longer.

To answer the question I suppose the only way for it to work would be egg laying male to livebearing female. The reason being that at the very least, if it was possible, it's easier to wait longer for gestation than to shorten it.

[Wildside]

The other reason I don't believe it's possible is, it doesn't happen in nature. I mean if any species were capable of this example of hybridization fish would do it, but they don't.

[StudentoReptile]

I just don't think it's in the makeup to successfully cross an egg layer to a livebearer. I've heard stories of people who attempted this but never produced any viable offspring for whatever (*cough* bullshit) reason. I mean you'd be trying to line up two completely different reproductive systems. How could a body even begin sorting out what to do with that?

This is pretty much my thoughts on it. Physiologically-speaking, the reproductive systems are just a little too different for it to be possible.

I agree. Even though someone from another forum mentioned how livebearers just internally "incubate" the eggs and that each baby comes out in a tiny sac which is like a thinned out version of an egg shell.

I just don't see how a snake that gestates for 4 - 5 months can somehow operate to gestate less or longer.

I've heard that argument before, too...but still, another thing to consider is the genetic differences between the two species in question, not just the differences in plumbing. Obviously, Aspidites sp and Python regius are closely enough related to cross...but can the same be said for BCI and Python regius? Somewhere, on the genetic/DNA level, things will not match up, and while the male and female can lock-up til the cows come home, successful fertilization is unlikely, just as viable offspring.

A good example is African house snakes. I was a big Lamprophis enthusiast for a few years, and many people are not aware that there are a handful of species, not just 2-3. And contrary to popular rumors and misinformation, most of those species would not interbreed with each other, despite being in the same genus. Keepers again witnessed copulations, but no gravid females, and no hybrids. Now...they have since re-taxoned the entire complex and many were thrown into other genera, having been discovered to be more distantly related from each other than originally thought. To date, the only known house snake hybrid is a crossing of the striped (B. lineatus) and Cape (B. capensis)...and even among AHS hobbyists, there is suspicions that the two species may even be subspecies.

I just say all that to say the importance of the genetic relationship of the species in question, not just whether it is oviparous or viviparous. In that respect, I can probably entertain the possibility of a cornsnake crossing with a Asian beauty snake more than I could an anaconda with a python.


To answer the question I suppose the only way for it to work would be egg laying male to livebearing female. The reason being that at the very least, if it was possible, it's easier to wait longer for gestation than to shorten it.

Maybe. I think it would definitely depend on exactly which two species were being crossed.
------------
Another thing to note is that some species have randomly "switched!" One example was the Kenyan sand boa. I read an article in REPTILES magazine several yrs ago of a specimen that spontaneously reproduced by laying an egg, as opposed to live birth. I do not recall of the egg was viable, or successfully incubated or not. I do remember talking to a sand boa breeder and he mentioned he had heard of the phenomenon in at least one other sand boa species as well.

[StudentoReptile]

The other reason I don't believe it's possible is, it doesn't happen in nature. I mean if any species were capable of this example of hybridization fish would do it, but they don't.


Meh...there's a LOT that happens in captivity that doesn't happen in nature. I mean, a carpet python will never mate with a ball python in nature. ;)

But I kinda see what you meant.

[Wildside]

Meh...there's a LOT that happens in captivity that doesn't happen in nature. I mean, a carpet python will never mate with a ball python in nature. ;)

But I kinda see what you meant.

True, maybe I should have said "in my experience" instead of "in nature". This thread just triggered me to think if I knew of any other species, mainly fish, that are capable of mating egg layer to livebearer.

[shaunyboy]

interesting stuff,thanks for the replies folks

cheers shaun:)

[StudentoReptile]

So here's a question: If time and resources (space, money, etc.) weren't an issue, what two species would YOU start with for this experiment (all in the name of science, of course)? In other words, what two species do you think would garner the best chances of a successful oviparous x viviparous species hybrid?

[MoreliAddict]

So here's a question: If time and resources (space, money, etc.) weren't an issue, what two species would YOU start with for this experiment (all in the name of science, of course)? In other words, what two species do you think would garner the best chances of a successful oviparous x viviparous species hybrid?
Emerald Tree Boa X Green Tree Python.

Why? Because they look alike :).

[Will0W783]

You cannot cross a live-bearing species with an egg-laying one. The reproductive cycles are not compatible- you won't get viable offspring. There are also other differences between boas and pythons; while they are similar they have diverged sufficiently in evolution to make them sexually incompatible. If you tried, say to breed an egg-laying male to a live-birthing female, the babies would not carry to term. The embryos of egg-laying species are adapted to develop in an egg external from the female. The body temperatures and low-oxygen environment of the uterus would not allow them to develop properly. The opposite would also hold true- live birthing embryos would not develop properly in time for an egg to hatch. You'd get babies pipping with developmental abnormalities; if they even produced eggs. To my knowledge, no one has gotten viable eggs or even a pregnancy out of such a cross. Most times the animals will see each other as competition and not mates. It would be kind of like trying to breed a cat with a dog- both are mammals, but they've grown so far apart evolutionarily that they can't breed with each other. Same goes for pythons and colubrids...can't do it.

[StudentoReptile]

To my knowledge, no one has gotten viable eggs or even a pregnancy out of such a cross.

That's the key!

Been a few obscure claims of gravid females (See here for some of that discussion: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-discussion/93553-pro-hybrid-discussion-thread-2.html )....but nothing substantial. Certainly no offspring.

Its funny when you think about it. Some of these claims, the person says, "yeah its possible"...but no offspring. Sorry folks, same goes for any other pairing (hybrid or otherwise); If no offspring was produced, then the breeding wasn't successful! It doesn't count!

Snakes can lock-up and copulate all they want, but unless you can prove even that fertilization occurred, you can say "its possible"

[marvelfreak]

So here's a question: If time and resources (space, money, etc.) weren't an issue, what two species would YOU start with for this experiment (all in the name of science, of course)? In other words, what two species do you think would garner the best chances of a successful oviparous x viviparous species hybrid?
Even though it not possible I think a Red Blood to a Yellow Anaconda would be very interesting. It would be cool to see what size, color, patterns,
head shape they would have. Plus what kind of behavior would exhibit. Would they be even more insecure and aggressive? Plus to study how powerful they would be. Could you imagine their crashing power or how hard they could hit?

[StudentoReptile]

I dunno...all I can think of when mixing a red colored snake with a green colored snake is that you're going to get a muddy brown colored snake. Yeah, maybe the pattern will be funky-looking...but mixing those colors together...meh.

I'd mix the red blood to a yellow anaconda instead, since yellow might flow better with those red hues and perhaps create some nice oranges.

[StudentoReptile]

Back to my original question, I think I might try mixing a Mexican burrowing python (Loxocemus bicolor) with perhaps a rosy boa or rubber boa.

[marvelfreak]

I dunno...all I can think of when mixing a red colored snake with a green colored snake is that you're going to get a muddy brown colored snake. Yeah, maybe the pattern will be funky-looking...but mixing those colors together...meh.

I'd mix the red blood to a yellow anaconda instead, since yellow might flow better with those red hues and perhaps create some nice oranges.
You must of misread it i said Yellow for that exacted reason. I bet the color and patterns would be insane looking.:)

[StudentoReptile]

LOL...you're absolutely right! I was probably thinking of another hybrid as well as the alleged green anaconda x African rock hybrid from the other site, and my eyes apparently saw "green".

[charlesc84]

I would like to see a venomous snake crossed with a non venomous one.

[Will0W783]

Honestly I think the only way we're going to be able to even begin to check the limits of genetic compatibility is by in-vitro fertilization techniques or artificial incubation.

Say you want to cross a blood python with an anaconda. Well, breedings have not been successful and no one can seem to get viable embryos. We'd have to try to fertilize the eggs in vitro (like we do for infertile human couples), then implant them into the female. However, that still leaves the problem of egg-laying vs. live-birth compatibility. I think the best way to try it would be with a male python and female boa.

Same goes for venomous to non-venomous. In vitro fertilization, and I think we'd be best to stick with breeding egg-laying to egg-laying (python or colubrid to elapid) or live-birther to live-birther (boa to viper). Then you get the question of whether the offspring (if any are produced) are venomous or not, and to what degree. Also you'd have to keep in mind that if venomous offspring are produced, we would have no knowledge of the venom or any effective antivenins, so the babies would be extremely dangerous.

[MoreliAddict]

lol @ the thought of a 20 foot venomous Retic...

[StudentoReptile]

lol @ the thought of a 20 foot venomous Retic...

Nagina from the last couple Harry Potter films. She was pretty much just a suped-up CGI retic with venom.

[MoreliAddict]

Nagina from the last couple Harry Potter films. She was pretty much just a suped-up CGI retic with venom.
Nagini didn't have venom, at least not in the movies. She clearly had teeth, not fangs, and tried to constrict Ron and Harry at one point.

She also bit the snot out of some guy and he survived. Harry saw it happen in his dream, maybe it was the 5th movie....

[marvelfreak]

Honestly I think the only way we're going to be able to even begin to check the limits of genetic compatibility is by in-vitro fertilization techniques or artificial incubation.

Say you want to cross a blood python with an anaconda. Well, breedings have not been successful and no one can seem to get viable embryos. We'd have to try to fertilize the eggs in vitro (like we do for infertile human couples), then implant them into the female. However, that still leaves the problem of egg-laying vs. live-birth compatibility. I think the best way to try it would be with a male python and female boa.

TEST TUBE SNAKE! Then you won't need to do vitro. Just do it all in the lab and send me the first born.:D:D:D:D

[Wildside]

lol @ the thought of a 20 foot venomous Retic...

Wasn't there a "scientist" on one of the news shows who claimed that the Burms would cross with the rattlers when the "Ban" first came about? I think it was in regards to that ridiculous climate map they released on areas suitable for giant pythons to live in the U.S.

Wonder what an 18 ft. rattling burm would sound like?

[StudentoReptile]

Nagini didn't have venom, at least not in the movies. She clearly had teeth, not fangs, and tried to constrict Ron and Harry at one point.

She also bit the snot out of some guy and he survived. Harry saw it happen in his dream, maybe it was the 5th movie....

Well, she only bit Snape at the end, and he died, presumably of the venom. I guess I just assumed because she was venomous in the books she was in the films. I suppose it is true that no one ever came right out and said "Hey, Nagini is/isn't venomous!"

[MoreliAddict]

suppose it is true that no one ever came right out and said "Hey, Nagini is/isn't venomous!"
Exactly. Could have sworn Nagini bit some guy with red hair in the 5th movie, and he lived. Nagini should have just swallowed Snape...

[StudentoReptile]

Exactly. Could have sworn Nagini bit some guy with red hair in the 5th movie, and he lived. Nagini should have just swallowed Snape...

She did bite Arthur Weasely, and Harry actually saw this vicariously through the snake (the scar somehow was acting up and connected him to Vordemort's mind, and likewise Nagini's).

IN the book, Mr. Weasley was treated (by magic obviously) for his bite wounds. I don't think the incident was made clear in the film, as such is the way with film adaptions from books. The books always give more detail, and in the film, a lot was cut out and the scene was mainly focusing on Harry (of course).

[KORBIN5895]

She did bite Arthur Weasely, and Harry actually saw this vicariously through the snake (the scar somehow was acting up and connected him to Vordemort's mind, and likewise Nagini's).

IN the book, Mr. Weasley was treated (by magic obviously) for his bite wounds. I don't think the incident was made clear in the film, as such is the way with film adaptions from books. The books always give more detail, and in the film, a lot was cut out and the scene was mainly focusing on Harry (of course).

Just like this thread.;)

[StudentoReptile]

Indeed. LOL.

[MoreliAddict]

She did bite Arthur Weasely, and Harry actually saw this vicariously through the snake (the scar somehow was acting up and connected him to Vordemort's mind, and likewise Nagini's).

IN the book, Mr. Weasley was treated (by magic obviously) for his bite wounds. I don't think the incident was made clear in the film, as such is the way with film adaptions from books. The books always give more detail, and in the film, a lot was cut out and the scene was mainly focusing on Harry (of course).
Gonna watch some Harry Potter later tonight...

[millertime89]

ANYWAYS...
this has always been one of my favorite carpondros ever since I first saw the picture. Really stunning snake.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//511/17605Carpondro-large.jpg
I'm acquiring Timors because I would like to cross them with SD retics. I know a couple retic breeders are talking about trying a retic x scrub and naming them mongolian maneaters. Someone tried it before but the female (a scrub) died while gravid before the eggs were ready to be laid.

I've got something in the works but I don't want to tell TOO many people.

[MoreliAddict]

^nice looking snake for sure.

[Will0W783]

I just saw the Deathly Hallows, part 1 last night, and I was ticked off that Nagini was just portrayed as a retic. In the books she is supposed to be a magical serpent called a basilisk. She was venomous in the books, so why they chose to directly copy a reticulated python is beyond me. It made me annoyed to say the least, lol.

[MoreliAddict]

I just saw the Deathly Hallows, part 1 last night, and I was ticked off that Nagini was just portrayed as a retic. In the books she is supposed to be a magical serpent called a basilisk. She was venomous in the books, so why they chose to directly copy a reticulated python is beyond me. It made me annoyed to say the least, lol.
The basilisk was a magical serpent which even turned people to stone if they looked into it's eyes. It was killed in the 2nd book, and they return to it's body in Deathly Hallows part 2.

Nagini is a snake. Also, according to Rowling, it's the same snake that was in the zoo in the first book...

[Wildside]

I just saw the Deathly Hallows, part 1 last night, and I was ticked off that Nagini was just portrayed as a retic. In the books she is supposed to be a magical serpent called a basilisk. She was venomous in the books, so why they chose to directly copy a reticulated python is beyond me. It made me annoyed to say the least, lol.

I know and a Basilisk is a lizard... Way to herp J.K. Rowling!


On a side note

http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/76/76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpeg

[StudentoReptile]

Funny how that goes sometimes, huh, Wild?

[Wildside]

Funny how that goes sometimes, huh, Wild?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfeOXo_7Mr2c9BwZn27Su8rMRc72cmA 8ebopZ5Vg0bG-x0oQkMn8LTF5IL

[Will0W783]

I thought Nagini was the basilisk. Lol it's been a few years since I read the books. And yes, the actual basilisk is a lizard that can run across water using surface tension.

[MoreliAddict]

Basilisk in HP > Basilisk that runs on water.

http://pumpkinswirl08.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/2_3basilisk.jpg

[millertime89]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfeOXo_7Mr2c9BwZn27Su8rMRc72cmA 8ebopZ5Vg0bG-x0oQkMn8LTF5IL

HA! That's hilarious.

I thought Nagini was the basilisk. Lol it's been a few years since I read the books. And yes, the actual basilisk is a lizard that can run across water using surface tension.

No, it never specified what Nagini was as far as I remember, just that she was Voldemort's pet snake. I do seem to recall her being venemous and large enough to swallow a man (4th book, eats the caretake of the Riddle house IIRC). That said, the basilisk pictured above was killed in the 2nd movie, which was modeled (in both the book and movie) off of the basilisk of lore.

[StudentoReptile]

Since we're still on the HP kick...did anyone notice that in the 4th & 5th films (Goblet of Fire and Order of Phoenix), Nagini was modeled after a Dumeril's boa? It was only in the last two (or rather three, since The Deathly Hallows was split) films that she was portrayed as a retic.

Nagini - Harry Potter Wiki (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Nagini)

[StudentoReptile]

according to Rowling, it's the same snake that was in the zoo in the first book...

Which is even more inconsistent with the films, as the snake in the zoo was depicted as a Burmese. How confusing! :wacky:

[MoreliAddict]

Which is even more inconsistent with the films, as the snake in the zoo was depicted as a Burmese. How confusing! :wacky:
I know! I wasn't even going to bring that up lol

[MoreliAddict]

did anyone notice that in the 4th & 5th films (Goblet of Fire and Order of Phoenix), Nagini was modeled after a Dumeril's boa?

Didn't notice that! Thanks!

[StudentoReptile]

I think we need to start a "Reptile in Fiction" thread and split some of these posts off.

[MoreliAddict]

I think we need to start a "Reptile in Fiction" thread and split some of these posts off.
You never know, maybe there's a mystery cross of two certain species which could hatch a basilisk (not the lizard)!

[millertime89]

You never know, maybe there's a mystery cross of two certain species which could hatch a basilisk (not the lizard)!

it was a frog sitting on a chicken egg IIRC.

[KORBIN5895]

You know what really blows my mind? The youngest person discussing HP is like 22.

[StudentoReptile]

You know what really blows my mind? The youngest person discussing HP is like 22.

LOL. All I can say is that I'm pretty interested in seeing the film adaptation to the third Hunger Games book. Talk about hybrid reptiles!

[MoreliAddict]

You know what really blows my mind? The youngest person discussing HP is like 22.
I was 8 years old when the first book came out, alot of us grew up with it...

[KORBIN5895]

LOL. All I can say is that I'm pretty interested in seeing the film adaptation to the third Hunger Games book. Talk about hybrid reptiles!

I need to read books two and three.

[millertime89]

LOL. All I can say is that I'm pretty interested in seeing the film adaptation to the third Hunger Games book. Talk about hybrid reptiles!

Third? The second is out already? I thought it was just the first? Or are you just alluding to something to come.

I need to read the series, they're on my shelf and book 1 is about 6th down on my "to read" list which means it might be a while before I get to it. I should just bump the series up and read it when I get done with my current book.

[StudentoReptile]

I'm just alluding to things to come. The second film is still in production.

[StudentoReptile]

Okay dokey...let's get things back on topic a little here....

This is a thread featuring the alleged Northern water snake x milksnake hybrid: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-colubrid-forum/88104-little-foot.html

Personally, after looking at all the photos, I'm still seeing 100% Nerodia in that animal. I'll admit the patterning on the head is a little unique, but nothing that suggests a mix from anything remotely resembling Lampropeltis. Perhaps its merely an intergrade with another water snake species or subspecies.

Another thing to consider in this particular case is the unlikelihood of such a crossing in the wild. Its one thing for someone to deliberately put these two species together in captivity and hope for a copulation. But would a eastern milk snake and a Northern water snake really "connect" on their own in their natural enviroment? How many other intergrades within the other Nerodia species in that area, or even hybrids with Thamnophis (garter snakes) are that common, before it would ever come to this?

Appearances aside, the mere fact we do not know the parents of this specimen since it was wildcaught, added to the high improbability of a "natural" hybridization, and the general consensus that an oviparous x viviparous crossing is anatomically unlikely...I'm calling this alleged hybrid a false: nothing but a somewhat unique looking water snake.

Any thoughts?

[millertime89]

I would be inclined to agree, its fun to hope that something like that were possible, but it doesn't really seem feasible. Would be interesting to see if it were possible but with as touchy as the topic is already I don't think we're going to have people too keen to try something as strange as ovi x vivi anytime soon. Who knows though, I could be wrong. That said I wouldn't be surprised if a host of complications arose from such a pairing.

[brandonh]

i tend to think its more likely especially in the wild is that the milk snake may possibly try eating the water snake instead of actually mating with it but thats just me.

[Jlassiter]

DEFINITELY 100% a nerodia with no other genera influence.......