Temperature Fluxes - How much is okay?

[Teal]

So I've got my Kingsnake eggs in a styrofoam cooler, in perlite, with a heat pad at the bottom of the cooler and the little container with the eggs on a little shelf above the heat pad.

But, because the temperature in my room fluxes a lot throughout the day/night, the temperature in the incubator fluxes too.

The fluxes have mostly been within what I've read to be the acceptable incubation range for Kingsnakes (75-85F)... but there's been a time or two when I've caught it at 70, and then at 90 :(

So, what I'm wondering is... How much fluxing can the eggs handle? Did those few times at 90F fry my eggs? Will the constant temperature change cause them to not develop? I'm trying to figure out a way to stabilize the temperature in there more, of course... but with the fluxes for the past week, might I already have doomed them? :(

[infernalis]

I am not sure about much, but that foam cooler is obviously not insulating anything.

A properly insulated container should not flux at all.

[Teal]

Tthey stay warmer in there at night with the heat pad than the temperature in my room, so it IS insulating them enough in that respect - at night, they're generally 82-84F where as my room is in the low 70s.

But, it starts to warm up mid morning... so then the cooler gets warmer. Depending on when I get the cooler on, then the temperature goes down again. All day long I'm adjusting the lid on the cooler to let out heat or keep more heat in :-/

[Terranaut]

Try a thermostat on the heat pad. This will fix everything. A cooler is fine if the heatpad is temp controlled and not just on all the time. I used a zoomed incubator and its just a cooler with a heat wire in the lid attached to a thermostat. Set your thermostat temp by measuring the egg temps witha heat gun. To keep my eggs at 87 I had the thermostat set to 93. Good luck.

[Wildside]

At this point you will have to just wait and see what happens. None of us can really say what's going on inside those eggs, and those are some pretty large fluctuations. But for future breeding, there are much easier and more reliable ways to incubate eggs. I personally have had the most success with the fish tank method.

[hellosugaree]

If you're not using a thermostat then that is your problem. Buy a good thermostat (Johnson, helix, herpatat, etc) and that will fix your problem.

[hellosugaree]

I am not sure about much, but that foam cooler is obviously not insulating anything.

A properly insulated container should not flux at all.

It will if the room temps flux and it's not on a thermostat...

[Gregg M]

Colubrid eggs can deal with fluctuations a bit better than most other reptile eggs. However, a 20 degree swing is generally not a good thing.

Here is the best way to make the temps in the incubator more stable.

Hook the heat pad up to a thermostat. It does not need to be a really good brand or super high quality if you just going to be incubating a few eggs here and there. And at this point, any thermostat is better than none. You can pick one up for like 30 bucks at most pet supply shops like petco, petsmart, petand, and so on.

Also, you want your incubator to be in a place in your home where the temps will be a bit more stable like a basement, closet. This will help keep temps more stable and will also keep condensation down inside the incubation container.

[Teal]

Thanks for the responses yall. In answer to some suggestions and comments...

I am not a breeder. I caught a Kingsnake off the road, brought her home for some pictures, planned to feed her a meal, and probably let her go. She laid a clutch during that time (which was a week). I woke up one morning to it, having NEVER had ANY experience with incubating reptile eggs previously, so I did what I could. The only reason I even have a little thermometer to use, is because I keep arachnids... so I took the thermometer out of my arachnid holding tank and put it in there (my arachnid set up is stable and long running, and the thermometer really wasn't necessary at this point anyways)

I don't have a thermostat or heat gun. I also don't have the money to get either tool. I'm a ranch worker in a very rural town, and the nearest pet store is over two hours away. I live in ranchhand quarters, which are basically barracks - so no closet, basement, etc.

It did only get down to 70 (and I think it was actually 72) once (and I think 75 once?) at the beginning when I was still trying to figure out how much the heat pad was going to heat the cooler. It's the spikes to 90 I am more worried about... but then it's only going from 90 down to 82 at the coolest now, but I am doing my best to keep it 84-87.

I know these conditions aren't ideal. I would never have intentionally put an egg clutch into this situation. But I feel responsible for them, because I took the snake off the road.. so I'm really trying my hardest with what I have access to to give these guys the best shot I can.

[hellosugaree]

Thanks for the responses yall. In answer to some suggestions and comments...

I am not a breeder. I caught a Kingsnake off the road, brought her home for some pictures, planned to feed her a meal, and probably let her go. She laid a clutch during that time (which was a week). I woke up one morning to it, having NEVER had ANY experience with incubating reptile eggs previously, so I did what I could. The only reason I even have a little thermometer to use, is because I keep arachnids... so I took the thermometer out of my arachnid holding tank and put it in there (my arachnid set up is stable and long running, and the thermometer really wasn't necessary at this point anyways)

I don't have a thermostat or heat gun. I also don't have the money to get either tool. I'm a ranch worker in a very rural town, and the nearest pet store is over two hours away. I live in ranchhand quarters, which are basically barracks - so no closet, basement, etc.

It did only get down to 70 (and I think it was actually 72) once (and I think 75 once?) at the beginning when I was still trying to figure out how much the heat pad was going to heat the cooler. It's the spikes to 90 I am more worried about... but then it's only going from 90 down to 82 at the coolest now, but I am doing my best to keep it 84-87.

I know these conditions aren't ideal. I would never have intentionally put an egg clutch into this situation. But I feel responsible for them, because I took the snake off the road.. so I'm really trying my hardest with what I have access to to give these guys the best shot I can.

Maybe a lesson in not taking snakes out of their habitat? Good luck with the eggs.

[kernel]

This may start fight (not my intentions), but taking a snake out of the wild for such a short time to get pics is generally not a problem. I have done it many times and so have allot of my fellow herpers. You were just very unfortunate. I'm not sure how I can help you in this situation. I built a fancy incubator out of an old fridge, I have never used a cooler. The best thing would be to somehow get a thermostat.

[hellosugaree]

This may start fight (not my intentions), but taking a snake out of the wild for such a short time to get pics is generally not a problem. I have done it many times and so have allot of my fellow herpers. You were just very unfortunate. I'm not sure how I can help you in this situation. I built a fancy incubator out of an old fridge, I have never used a cooler. The best thing would be to somehow get a thermostat.

I don't foresee a fight. Picking it up , snapping a few shots, and then setting it down where you found it is generally not a problem. But I do think that bringing it back to your house to feed it and hold it for any period of time is not entirely responsible. The likelyhood that it lays eggs in your house is probably minimal, but in any case, removing it from wherever it was disturbs it more than necessary. Everyone has their own opinions on these things though.

[Gregg M]

I don't foresee a fight. Picking it up , snapping a few shots, and then setting it down where you found it is generally not a problem. But I do think that bringing it back to your house to feed it and hold it for any period of time is not entirely responsible. The likelyhood that it lays eggs in your house is probably minimal, but in any case, removing it from wherever it was disturbs it more than necessary. Everyone has their own opinions on these things though.

Damn, does this mean no one should ever keep wild caught reptiles?:rolleyes:

Even if it was intended to be a pet, as long as it was collected legally and is being cared for, there is nothing really irresponsible about what the OP did. The fact that a W/C snake laid eggs properly in captivity speaks volumes.

Now with the getting eggs part, how could someone tell it was gravid unless they are experienced in breeding snakes? At least the OP is trying hard not to kill the eggs.

What I find much more irresponsible is when I see posts that say "Hey I "accidentally" bred my snakes, what should I do."

[Wildside]

Damn, does this mean no one should ever keep wild caught reptiles?:rolleyes:

Even if it was intended to be a pet, as long as it was collected legally and is being cared for, there is nothing really irresponsible about what the OP did. The fact that a W/C snake laid eggs properly in captivity speaks volumes.

Now with the getting eggs part, how could someone tell it was gravid unless they are experienced in breeding snakes? At least the OP is trying hard not to kill the eggs.

What I find much more irresponsible is when I see posts that say "Hey I "accidentally" bred my snakes, what should I do."

IKR Honestly, in my experience "accidentally" breeding snakes is a relatively difficult thing to do. I'm certainly not saying it doesn't happen,but it doesn't seem to happen quite as easily as "My cat accidentally had kittens" ya know?

[Teal]

I've been able to keep the temperatures a little more stable in the past 24 hours, so I think I might be getting the hang of it.. I just hope it's not too late!

IF the eggs were bad, is there a time frame where I would know for sure? Where they might start growing fungus, or some other sign? Or do I just keep doing what I'm doing, and wait to see if they hatch? They were laid on the 30th of June.

Maybe a lesson in not taking snakes out of their habitat? Good luck with the eggs.

Good point. Because no one has ever taken anything out of the wild. Your captive bred animals have been from captive bred animals FOR ETERNITY. lol

[hellosugaree]

Damn, does this mean no one should ever keep wild caught reptiles?:rolleyes:


I don't really see a reason to.

[Gregg M]

I don't really see a reason to.

Really? That is interesting. What about introducing fresh blood lines? No need for that?

The way I see it, there is no reason not to. Can you give a reason not to?

[Teal]

hellosugaree - Mind taking your WC snake debate elsewhere? It's taking away from the fact that I am asking questions about keeping my clutch alive, which is quite rude. Thanks.

So in addition to the questions I just asked on page one, I'm also concerned now about some discolouration in the eggshells. If they're healthy, they should remain white the whole time, yes? Some of them are, but some of them have clear-ish looking patches and yellow/green discolouration - part of which I believe was from being on coco fiber, but there is some new discolouration forming now that I think might be more unhealthy.

[Terranaut]

Pictures would help a lot.
My JCP clutch had the best healthiest snake come from a discoloured wrinkled egg.
Keep them in there unless they mould. Then toss them.

[Teal]

Thanks for the input! There's only one that is apart.. the rest are in a clump. So, if any begin molding, I don't have any way to take them out. I've read on here that healthy eggs won't contract mold from eggs even that are touching them though.

The pictures make it look a lot worse! Or maybe I'm just delusional about what they really look like? LOL The egg on the far left looks perfectly fine still. The one on the top of the photo looked fine until a few days ago... I think it's been too wet in their lil box, so I made some changes to prevent that issue from occurring again.

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l492/Teal2012/crystal-1.jpg

I know they look pretty bad :( I'm doing my best!

[Terranaut]

3 look bad the rest look fine to me. BUT I have never bred kings so I am not sure if they have 100% of the same characteristics as JCP eggs but just from that pic I would guess the 3 on the lower right of the pic are not gonna make it. But I would just control the temps more accurately and wait and see.

[Lankyrob]

hellosugaree - Mind taking your WC snake debate elsewhere? It's taking away from the fact that I am asking questions about keeping my clutch alive, which is quite rude. Thanks.

That statement is pretty rude too - this is a public forum and the WC discussion is completely relevant to the thread.

Continually typing in bold when you have been asked nicely to stop could be considered rude also :)

[Wildside]

Honestly, at this point, I would be surprised if that clutch makes it at all. Why did you feel they were too moist? What did you do to change it? In the future, if you incubate a clutch of anything, the best thing to do is leave it alone. Get the environment stabilized as fast as you can and then don't mess with it. You've given it a real awesome effort but I just don't think those babies are meant to be.

[Teal]

That statement is pretty rude too - this is a public forum and the WC discussion is completely relevant to the thread.

Continually typing in bold when you have been asked nicely to stop could be considered rude also :)

Thank you for your incredibly helpful post in regards to how the temperature fluxes my eggs are experiencing may impact them! I appreciate you taking the time to stop by my thread and add your very useful knowledge :)

I'm not going to debate the morals of keeping or collecting WC snakes. Had I not stated my eggs were from a WC snake, you'd be none the wiser. Therefor, it stands to reason that the origin of my eggs is irrelevant to a discussion regarding proper temperatures, yes? I'm not at all new to forums, and I'm sure there are PLENTY of threads debating WC snakes. But, there aren't plenty of threads regarding what temperature fluxes colubrid eggs can handle. So it seems reasonable to ask that the thread stay at least mildly on topic, does it not?

On the same line of not being new to forums.. I type in bold on all of them, and have for years. Nothing personal, I assure you.

So, if you consider all that to be rude... then I guess I'm rude! :)

[Teal]

Honestly, at this point, I would be surprised if that clutch makes it at all. Why did you feel they were too moist? What did you do to change it? In the future, if you incubate a clutch of anything, the best thing to do is leave it alone. Get the environment stabilized as fast as you can and then don't mess with it. You've given it a real awesome effort but I just don't think those babies are meant to be.

Care to elaborate on why you feel this clutch won't make it?

I felt they were too moist because there was enough condensation on the roof of their little tub that it was dripping down onto the eggs and that is when some of them started getting those opaque-ish looking spots. All I did was remove the lid off their little container, which actually has stabilized the temperature.

[Wildside]

Care to elaborate on why you feel this clutch won't make it?

I felt they were too moist because there was enough condensation on the roof of their little tub that it was dripping down onto the eggs and that is when some of them started getting those opaque-ish looking spots. All I did was remove the lid off their little container, which actually has stabilized the temperature.

They've been exposed to a very unstable environment. It's very early on in the incubation cycle and you already have 3 out of 8 that don't look good at all, with worrysome spots on the rest. You've done your very best with it and that's all anyone can do. Also, I'm not saying they absolutely won't make it. I can't see what is going on inside those eggs.

Breeding/Incubation is always a gamble. In this case the odds are stacked against you but that doesn't mean you won't come out on top. As avid as you are about taking responsibility for these eggs I'm sure you would have done very well had you been ready. I wouldn't have bothered with them honestly.

[Teal]

Thank you for the clarification :)

When I saw that they were fertile, I knew I had to at least give it a shot. Though I will continue to incubate them, unless it becomes quite obvious that none of them are viable.. just because.. ya never know, right? Maybe they'll surprise us lol I really have been trying my best though :(

[Wildside]

Thank you for the clarification :)

When I saw that they were fertile, I knew I had to at least give it a shot. Though I will continue to incubate them, unless it becomes quite obvious that none of them are viable.. just because.. ya never know, right? Maybe they'll surprise us lol I really have been trying my best though :(

Best of luck!

[Jay]

That statement is pretty rude too - this is a public forum and the WC discussion is completely relevant to the thread.

Continually typing in bold when you have been asked nicely to stop could be considered rude also :)

We get it you don't like the bold.
I like it it separates the op's posts from
The gibberish.

If you're not planing on breeding again I wouldn't waste to much money into a thermostat, but I would still get one.

[kernel]

The 3 on the right and the 1 on the top look bad, but the other 4 look like they have a chance to me. Just keep their environment as stable as possible and keep us updated :)

[Teal]

Thanks yall! :)

It turns out I will be traveling tomorrow to a city that has a PetCo (Petsmart? One of them), so I am hoping I can stop in to see about getting a thermostat, especially since I might be traveling out of state for a few weeks coming up, so I won't be here to adjust the lid on the cooler like I do to keep the temperature as stable as possible. So hopefully I can find a relatively cheap one that'll do the job!

[hellosugaree]

Thanks yall! :)

It turns out I will be traveling tomorrow to a city that has a PetCo (Petsmart? One of them), so I am hoping I can stop in to see about getting a thermostat, especially since I might be traveling out of state for a few weeks coming up, so I won't be here to adjust the lid on the cooler like I do to keep the temperature as stable as possible. So hopefully I can find a relatively cheap one that'll do the job!

If you don't find one there you can always order on the internet. Also, you probably already know this, but just in case: don't buy a rheostat (dimmer), which will not help you much and end up being mostly a waste of money.

[rmfsnakes32]

I have a question being that mom was wild caught she could possibly have parasites and such can the hatchlings have the same issue? Also did you keep the mom or release her? Just curious I am new to this forum and want to learn as much as I can I have 8 snakes and counting lol thanks for any info

[Teal]

I don't think the hatchlings would be born with parasites... but that's just my opinion.

I released the mom :)