Save your Monitor Lizards!

[bodiddleyitis]

Hello I'd be grateful for any opinions about this, thanks.

Save Your Monitors!
Monitor lizards are heavily exploited for their meat and leather and for the international wildlife trade. There have been very few investigations into the ecology and conservation status of monitor lizards, and, as far as I am aware, no funds from the trade in monitor lizards has ever been used to fund research.

This project aims to improve this situation in the following way.
1. People who keep monitor lizards donate their dead animals to a national Save Your Monitors group.
2. Members of the national group make products from the dead monitor lizards (e.g. leather goods, skeletal preparations) and sell them on ebay
3. The profits generated are distributed as small grants to students in countries where monitor lizards live, allowing them to make basic investigations into local monitor lizard populations.

If the project worked it might a) generate indirect funding of monitor lizard research from the monitor lizard trade b) generate the first captive bred monitor lizard products ever available.

The project will require i) People with facilities to receive and process donated animals in different countries, ii) people who are able to make desirable objects from the donated animals in different countries, iii) a team that can solicit advertise and screen applications for funding.
Anybody with relevant skills who is interested in the project please get in touch.

[SnakeyJay]

I see that you mean well, but personally I don't think promoting the use of monitor skin is a good idea..

[infernalis]

Personally, I think that people who put time and TLC into a monitor would be reluctant to have their pet rendered into wallets and watch bands.

Pet owners tend to get attached to their pets.

[BarelyBreathing]

I agree with the other two.

[Gungirl]

Go to a dog forum and ask them to do the same of their dogs.. See what kind of answers you will get.



They are pets not products!

[jaleely]

Agreed with these four posts!

[Terranaut]

As do I. My pets will never be wallets or snake skins.
Your intentions are sound but not your methods. Also making monitor skin a commodity will increase demand and cause more to hunt the wild ones.
This is all bad sorry :(

[Jay]

Sounds ok to me. Look at the bigger picture, it's a very great idea.

[alessia55]

Hmm.. Well, I was definitely planning on using Kaybe & Pika's skin to make something out of them once they pass away... so IDK if it's SUCH a bad idea. As to whether it would have the impact desired, I'm not sure. I think I agree with Terranaut that it might create a demand that would yield people hunting for them rather than preserving them. :hmm:

[infernalis]

Also making monitor skin a commodity will increase demand and cause more to hunt the wild ones.
This is all bad sorry :(

Monitor skins are already a commodity.. Has been for years.

http://www.varanid.us/products/1.jpg

http://www.varanid.us/products/2.jpg

http://www.varanid.us/products/3.jpg

http://www.varanid.us/products/4.jpg

[Terranaut]

Well my fear is that if there are more things like this supplied to market the awareness of these may become higher. Imagine if having a monitor cell phone case became as popular as any if the other trendy items that have come and gone.
Maybe I am ignorant to the problem already being bad enough to warrant a more drastic action or something like this. I just don't think selling dead animal products to help preserve the same animals works.
I might be wrong but...

[bodiddleyitis]

Thanks to everyone for their input. I was hoping folks might view it the same way they do when they donate their loved ones' organs or bodies to medical science. I've tried for nearly twenty years to get the wildlife and leather trade and their customers to contribute something to monitor lizard conservation, and I've failed entirely. Any suggestions welcome!

[bodiddleyitis]

As do I. My pets will never be wallets or snake skins.
Your intentions are sound but not your methods. Also making monitor skin a commodity will increase demand and cause more to hunt the wild ones.
This is all bad sorry :(

Interesting. Don't you think making live animals a commodity does exactly the same thing?

[RandyRhoads]

As do I. My pets will never be wallets or snake skins.

It's a great way to remember them. With all the times you need to take out your wallet, you never forget them.

[KORBIN5895]

Well I am swimming against the flow here but I personally think it's a great idea. Which means I already sent an email with the few qualities I have.

I get your guys sentiment. I also see where it could be seen as a questionable. What you guys need to really look at is what could this do to a) help with conservation or b) give the natives another viable way to make a living.

Unfortunately I do see the viscious side of this. The idea is totally dependant on cheap wc savs. If this initiative could be used to get funding from the local governments for conservation well so be it.

Remember that sunshine and flowers are great and all but there are no flowers without a little rain.

[StudentoReptile]

Wallets, belts, watches, etc. have to replaced over time. I would rather have the skin of my pet be used for a more conservation-based or education-based product.

A field-hook with the grip (similar to what JKR Gear does) donated to a renowned herpetologist/biologist working with the species in question...if not a hook, maybe a custom-made case for their laptop, or other equipment, they use in the field.

In my view, a much better way to "honor the dead" than to sit on their leather hide all the time (wallets), hold in our bulging guts (belts), or carrying our make-up and crap (purses).

[infernalis]

stuffed and mounted by a good taxidermist! the mounted animal could be used in classroom situations to teach biology students.

Now that would be a brilliant use for a deceased captive.

[MoreliAddict]

I don't see how sending over our monitors would prevent anyone from killing another monitor. We would just be supporting the people that make use of/sell the skin.

[infernalis]

I think too many people are missing the point, He didn't say anything about sending our pets "over" anywhere.

I honestly think the intended goal is education and fund raising to improve awareness of the "trade".

If folks would take the time to read the Biawak journals that I keep linking, you would be more informed of what is happening.

Lizards are constantly caught in snare traps, leg traps and box traps, bludgeoned and skinned for leather, hacked with machete's , displayed on market tables with their lower jaw intentionally broken so they cannot bite, their tails tied around their necks so they cannot whip..

When we see even a marginally cared for monitor in a pretty cage, we see "cute", when a poor person with a family to feed sees a monitor, they see dinner or money to buy necessary little things we all take for granted.

[MoreliAddict]

Wayne, the OP said "donate their dead animals", which is what I meant by "sending them over".

I was just trying to state that I don't think the "poor person" would go after less monitors weather or not we sent him/her our dead ones, he/she would be catching them regardless for MORE $$.

And, imo donating our dead animals would be supporting the trade of using monitor skin for leather - not a good thing...

[Terranaut]

And, imo donating our dead animals would be supporting the trade of using monitor skin for leather - not a good thing...


My thoughts exactly.

I have no doubt the op's intentions are good but lets look at the last few posts.
Even some of us would own these products. But we have a love for the live animal and not just its skin. I also would think at least one reader saw Waynes pics and went "cool".
Again I wish this could work but given the nature of humans. I think it would work against the greater good in the long run.
But yeah thats just my $.02.

[Robyn@SYR]

I understand the intention and sentiment, but yeah, there is a lot of emotional weight that comes with such a proposal.

[Snakefood]

My thoughts exactly.

I have no doubt the op's intentions are good but lets look at the last few posts.
Even some of us would own these products. But we have a love for the live animal and not just its skin. I also would think at least one reader saw Waynes pics and went "cool".
Again I wish this could work but given the nature of humans. I think it would work against the greater good in the long run.
But yeah thats just my $.02.

I love the animals, but would never wear or use thier actual "skins". I do have snakeskin print faux leather boots that I like alot!!

[mo9e64]

I didn't want to touch this question till others replied.To me it was more a question to see how we rationalize our hobby.Right now our hobby is no better than an industry which uses a live animals in other ways as a commodity-death sometimes slow is the end result the majority of time anyways.
I would personally like to promote responsible ownership,than using our dead animals for a cause.As how the natives where monitors come from use their animal resources,i hope they are responsible as well.Raising the value of these animals might be the only way of saving them.

[dehlol]

It'd be better to use the animal than it to rot in the ground IMO..

[Fabrizio13]

I just joined this forum like 30 seconds ago just to post on this thread lol.

All the opinions expressed so far make complete sense, and I honestly think this idea might just be a start to something fantastic. Although I don't personally agree with it, I get where you're coming from and it does make sense. Monitor skin accessories appeal to a larger market than reptile hobbyists. The biggest problem I see with it is having a steady supply of dead monitors to make these accessories available constantly, unless you contact a whole bunch of importers (I think all of us would be just horrified with the amount of dead monitors they have on hand).

I think the idea of taxidermy is amazing. Also full skeletons/skulls. I would buy a full skeleton of a larger species if I could, honestly! They would also command a higher price, which would help solve the low supply issue and I think the market is good, but I'm no expert by any means. I could see museums, zoos, educational programs, and even private individuals buying these items. Maybe even people with "trophy rooms" with different mounted animals they or other people hunted.

Another possible snag, most of the varanids that die in captivity are youngsters, which are completely useless as skins and would be incredibly hard to mount. I could see skeletons selling, but the larger ones would definitively be in higher demand.

But like I said, this can be the beginning of something spectacular for better understanding of wild varanids (which we desperately need), but of course there's going to be a bunch of snags and what not.

Good luck and thank you for standing up for wild varanids!

[beardeds4life]

Personally I would buy a stuffed monitor. I would also buy a properly prepared skeleton or any of the organs pickled. I would use them all to teach about monitors. I highly disagree with the OP. I think it is a horrible idea and will just make more people want wallets and stuff.

[KORBIN5895]

I just joined this forum like 30 seconds ago just to post on this thread lol.

All the opinions expressed so far make complete sense, and I honestly think this idea might just be a start to something fantastic. Although I don't personally agree with it, I get where you're coming from and it does make sense. Monitor skin accessories appeal to a larger market than reptile hobbyists. The biggest problem I see with it is having a steady supply of dead monitors to make these accessories available constantly, unless you contact a whole bunch of importers (I think all of us would be just horrified with the amount of dead monitors they have on hand).

I think the idea of taxidermy is amazing. Also full skeletons/skulls. I would buy a full skeleton of a larger species if I could, honestly! They would also command a higher price, which would help solve the low supply issue and I think the market is good, but I'm no expert by any means. I could see museums, zoos, educational programs, and even private individuals buying these items. Maybe even people with "trophy rooms" with different mounted animals they or other people hunted.

Another possible snag, most of the varanids that die in captivity are youngsters, which are completely useless as skins and would be incredibly hard to mount. I could see skeletons selling, but the larger ones would definitively be in higher demand.

But like I said, this can be the beginning of something spectacular for better understanding of wild varanids (which we desperately need), but of course there's going to be a bunch of snags and what not.

Good luck and thank you for standing up for wild varanids!

I stuffed a sparrow once.

[Wiggles92]

Aren't certain species farmed in large numbers as it is?

[infernalis]

Aren't certain species farmed in large numbers as it is?

"Farmed" is not what you think.

It still involves gathering wild animals.

[Fabrizio13]

I stuffed a sparrow once.

I stand corrected!

And yeah, "farming" is nothing more than trying to make imports sound like they're better quality. They're no different than any other wild caught varanid in that respect.

Also, if they do decide to go ahead with the skin accessories idea, I hardly think it would change the market in favor of importing more wild animals.

[KORBIN5895]

It was an insane amount of work on such a little bird!

[bodiddleyitis]

Aren't certain species farmed in large numbers as it is?

Unfortunately not. The "farms" in Indonesia are scams, e.g.

http://www.traffic.org/species-reports/traffic_species_reptiles26.pdf

www.wildlifeextra.com/resources/doc/misc/wildlife_laundering.pdf

and the "farms" in West Africa work by catching gravid females and incubating eggs artificially. The adult females do not survive this process.

[Wiggles92]

Well that's too bad about the "farms" not being actual farms.

For some reason, I always thought that the monitors that made it into the trade from Africa were the extras & runts from leather farms. I'm not quite sure how I came to that conclusion, though; maybe it just seemed like the logical thing to do from a farming standpoint...

[infernalis]

Unfortunately not. The "farms" in Indonesia are scams, e.g.

http://www.traffic.org/species-reports/traffic_species_reptiles26.pdf

www.wildlifeextra.com/resources/doc/misc/wildlife_laundering.pdf (http://www.wildlifeextra.com/resources/doc/misc/wildlife_laundering.pdf)

and the "farms" in West Africa work by catching gravid females and incubating eggs artificially. The adult females do not survive this process.

Even though it is unpleasant, Thank you very much for this information.

[varanus_mad]

Unfortunately not. The "farms" in Indonesia are scams, e.g.

http://www.traffic.org/species-reports/traffic_species_reptiles26.pdf

www.wildlifeextra.com/resources/doc/misc/wildlife_laundering.pdf (http://www.wildlifeextra.com/resources/doc/misc/wildlife_laundering.pdf)

and the "farms" in West Africa work by catching gravid females and incubating eggs artificially. The adult females do not survive this process.

I believe they also use similar methods for all of the Indo species to GRRRR

Whoops thats what the first ones about...