Incubation Question!

[Teal]

Hey yall! I'm brand new here, and I did a search as thoroughly as I could looking for the answer to my question.. but I didn't find anything quite specific enough, so I hope yall don't mind me asking :) I apologize for the length of this.. I've NEVER dealt with eggs before, so I'm a bit excited and nervous! If you want to skip straight to the question, just scroll to the last paragraph :)

Exactly a week ago I caught a lovely California Kingsnake. I would estimate her to be about 3.5 feet long.

I brought her home and set her up in one of the many tanks I have. I've kept a few reptiles before (I mostly keep arachnids), so I had all the equipment.

I decided to try to feed her, since she's been here a week... last night I put her into a feeding box (a clear plastic container with moist paper towels), and was going to go get some mice for her today. Why I put her into the feeding box last night, I couldn't tell you! But...

You can imagine my surprise when I woke up and she was nestled around a clutch of eggs!

Had she been in her enclosure, she would have had access to her decent sized water bowl, which I've read they sometimes lay in if there isn't a lay box.. so I am really glad I put her in the feeding box last night!

Anyways, there are 7 eggs stuck together and one apart. I marked the tops of them all, so they wouldn't get rotated (though I only plan on handling them to candle them once or twice in the future). I candled the apart one, even though it looked fine, because I've heard sometimes slugs will get pushed aside.. but the apart one is fertile. I candled a few of the stuck ones as best as I could, but I've never handled snake eggs before so I was being extra gentle. The stuck ones I candled are fertile, as well.

So, in a near state of panic, I watched a LOT of YouTube videos on how to make a homemade incubator. It just so happened I had a styrofoam cooler, so I put a heating pad at the bottom, put a little shelf in, and put the plastic container with eggs on that. For medium, I used dampened coco fiber (I THINK... it comes in a brink and expands in water? It's what I use for substrate for my arachnids). But IMMEDIATELY the eggs started to dimple! :( So, I went through all my stuff and found a bit of moss that I had used in a shed box for a snake.. so I damped that, and put it over them. Then I put a moist paper towel over that.

My question is - when should I start seeing the eggs plump back up, if the humidity is okay? I don't want to keep adding moistness, only for it to end up being too much... but I really don't want them to dry out, either! The temperament in the little container is 85F. Thanks for any help!

[Snakefood]

I have never bred kings but do breed corns. I incubate at temps between 82-84. I cover the eggs completely in damp moss and mist daily. those that dimple usually plump up in 24-48 hrs. corn hatchlings usually incubate for 50-70 days.

Like I said this is for corns and I don't know if Kings are different

[Teal]

Thank you for your reply! :) I was hoping it would be awhile to see results (otherwise that would mean I was still doing it wrong!)... so I've got them all set up and I'm not going to mess with them again until tomorrow and hopefully there will be some improvement. I've been checking on them almost constantly, trying to get the temperature correct and making sure it's moist and I'm sure that's been affecting the humidity more than anything too.

Now I'm concerned about the placement of the embryos though. The one that is apart, the embryo appears to be on the side, and ever so slightly on the bottom. I'm being told that's really bad? I didn't really pay attention to the others, but I think they were similar? I didn't rotate them at all...

[Snakefood]

I dont rorate the eggs at all, I leave them the same way mamma did. you lose some, that's the way of things. But in a good clutch a good percentage will survive

[Teal]

Thanks again! A few people told me to turn them... but I just couldn't do it. If she accidentally turned one before I got to it and I lose it... like you said, that's the way of things.

[Lankyrob]

Could you please not type all in bold, makes it very hard to read - thank you :)

[Gregg M]

I have never bred kings but do breed corns. I incubate at temps between 82-84. I cover the eggs completely in damp moss and mist daily. those that dimple usually plump up in 24-48 hrs. corn hatchlings usually incubate for 50-70 days.

Like I said this is for corns and I don't know if Kings are different

This is not a very good way to incubate reptile eggs. It is never a good idea to mist eggs. Reptile eggs do not do well in wet conditions.

To the OP,
When you set up your eggs using the burried or half burried method, the eggs should be put into perlite with a 1 to .8 in a container with an air tight lid. Add 2 to 4 small holes in the lid to keep the pressure the same between the incubation container and outside environment. With kings and corns, I do not even bother putting them in the incubator. The snake room is between 79 and 82 degrees and I use my SIM containers and all eggs that are fertile hatch out. The eggs should not be denting at all during incubation until they are about to hatch. There should never be a need to mist or add water at any point during incubation. If you need to, your set up is very wrong and your eggs will more than likely die during incubation.

[marvelfreak]

19733

Nice to have you join us.:)

[beardeds4life]

Could you please not type all in bold, makes it very hard to read - thank you :)

YES! I agree.

[Teal]

I always type in bold on forums. Old habit!

Thank you for the welcome, marvelfreak :)

This is not a very good way to incubate reptile eggs. It is never a good idea to mist eggs. Reptile eggs do not do well in wet conditions.

To the OP,
When you set up your eggs using the burried or half burried method, the eggs should be put into perlite with a 1 to .8 in a container with an air tight lid. Add 2 to 4 small holes in the lid to keep the pressure the same between the incubation container and outside environment. With kings and corns, I do not even bother putting them in the incubator. The snake room is between 79 and 82 degrees and I use my SIM containers and all eggs that are fertile hatch out. The eggs should not be denting at all during incubation until they are about to hatch. There should never be a need to mist or add water at any point during incubation. If you need to, your set up is very wrong and your eggs will more than likely die during incubation.

I don't have access to perlite or vermeculite (sp?). I don't know what "SIM containers" are. I don't have a snake room - I simply have MY room, and the temperature fluxes quite a lot from low seventies to low eighties depending on what part of the day I wake up in and then get the air cooler on.

So, thank you for telling me that my set up is "very wrong" - I watched a lot of YouTube videos and everyone does their set ups just a little bit differently. So, if you have any advice on how to improve mine to give my eggs the best chance, working with the materials I have... THAT would be nice.

[snake man12]

I lightly dampened kitchen towel over the eggs would work for some added humidity. Oh and I like bold

[Gregg M]

I don't have access to perlite or vermeculite (sp?). I don't know what "SIM containers" are. I don't have a snake room - I simply have MY room, and the temperature fluxes quite a lot from low seventies to low eighties depending on what part of the day I wake up in and then get the air cooler on.

So, thank you for telling me that my set up is "very wrong" - I watched a lot of YouTube videos and everyone does their set ups just a little bit differently. So, if you have any advice on how to improve mine to give my eggs the best chance, working with the materials I have... THAT would be nice.

Well I did tell you what would give you the best chance of success with your eggs. I gave you a run down of the matrials you need. You can watch you tube until your eyes fall out of your head. That will not help you to incubated reptile eggs properly. You are getting advice first hand from me. A successful breeder who hatches a couple of hundred snakes and lizards a year.

You are working with a poor choice of materials. See how successful you are at fixing a car engine with a tree branch. Thats about the same odds you will have when incubating eggs on coco fiber. Anyone has access to perlite. You can get it at any garden center/home depot/lowes/k-mart/wal-mart. You should have atleast one of those no more than 15 miles away from your house.

My post was not ment to be NICE. My post was to tell you what you are doing wrong so you can fix it.
You dont like what I have to say, by all means, ignore what I am telling you and go watch more you tube vids while your snake eggs continue to cave in and collapse.

[Teal]

I lightly dampened kitchen towel over the eggs would work for some added humidity. Oh and I like bold

Thank you! I have dampened paper towels both over the moss, and over the lid of the container.. I'll try an actual towel to see if that helps! (and it's taking every bit of willpower I have to not put the html tags for bold at the start and end of my posts! lol)

Well I did tell you what would give you the best chance of success with your eggs. I gave you a run down of the matrials you need. You can watch you tube until your eyes fall out of your head. That will not help you to incubated reptile eggs properly. You are getting advice first hand from me. A successful breeder who hatches a couple of hundred snakes and lizards a year.

You are working with a poor choice of materials. See how successful you are at fixing a car engine with a tree branch. Thats about the same odds you will have when incubating eggs on coco fiber. Anyone has access to perlite. You can get it at any garden center/home depot/lowes/k-mart/wal-mart. You should have atleast one of those no more than 15 miles away from your house.

My post was not ment to be NICE. My post was to tell you what you are doing wrong so you can fix it.
You dont like what I have to say, by all means, ignore what I am telling you and go watch more you tube vids while your snake eggs continue to cave in and collapse.

I don't care if you're rude - I'm not here for niceness, I'm here to get advice on how to rear these snake eggs into hatching.

We don't even have a Home Depot or Lowe's in this COUNTY. I can get to a Wal Mart in about 45 minutes, though. I wasn't aware that it was a material available at Wal Mart until now.

Your 1 to .8 - That is perlite to water ratio, yes?

[Teal]

Okay, so I went to the Wal Mart and they didn't have perlite or vermiculite.

Tomorrow I'll go to the other end of the county... there's a nursery, and I'm hoping they'll have some.

How long do you think the eggs can be how they are before they are too far gone? They're dimpled, but not caving. Obviously, I'm going to try to get some proper medium as soon as I can.. but if no where in the county has it, I'll have to see if I can get some sent to the post in the town I'm going to tomorrow.

[Snakefood]

until then just make sure that the moss you're using is damp and sourounds the eggs. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and everyone does things a little different. With my clutch of corn eggs, I used nothing but the moss and I misted the moss everyday (not the egss as they were UNDER the moss) and kept them at proper temps. I had a very good hatch rate and only lost the ones that looked like slugs when they were laid, so I don't think I killed any aggs by using moss and misting. The hatchlings that came out were healthy and are eating great!!

[Chu'Wuti]

For an unexpected clutch of Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis that arrived when I had no incubator (a situation similar to yours--I had just bought a female that the owner thought was obese, but he had sold her to another person then got her back), I have successfully incubated eggs in long-fiber sphagnum moss. The person who sold her to me said he has used this method for years. I soaked the moss in water, then squeezed out most of the water. I put a layer of moss down into a plastic tub--shoebox sized, then the eggs, then another thinner layer of moss. Though the previous owner/breeder usually puts the box up on top of a high counter, as we kept our house cooler, I put the tub on a heat pad with a thermostat set to 82 degrees.

I was told to and did check the humidity only once a week--the less you open the box, the better the humidity retention. Mist no more than once a week if necessary.

He recommended not incubating the separated egg with the other eggs just in case the separated egg is a dud and starts to grow fungus. If it does grow a fungus, keeping it in a separate tub will prevent the spread of the fungus to the remaining eggs.

Glad you're not rotating the eggs--these are not chickens and should never be rotated. Do not try to separate the eggs that are stuck together, either.

Mark your calendar for 60 days after the laying and start watching for pipping at that time.

Good luck!

[Gregg M]

For an unexpected clutch of Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis that arrived when I had no incubator (a situation similar to yours--I had just bought a female that the owner thought was obese, but he had sold her to another person then got her back), I have successfully incubated eggs in long-fiber sphagnum moss. The person who sold her to me said he has used this method for years. I soaked the moss in water, then squeezed out most of the water. I put a layer of moss down into a plastic tub--shoebox sized, then the eggs, then another thinner layer of moss. Though the previous owner/breeder usually puts the box up on top of a high counter, as we kept our house cooler, I put the tub on a heat pad with a thermostat set to 82 degrees.

It cringe when I hear stories like this. I can not understand why anyone would sell off a gravid snake. It can cause a multitude of problems. If someone is a snake breeder, they should know the difference between a fat snake and a gravid one very easily.

I was told to and did check the humidity only once a week--the less you open the box, the better the humidity retention. Mist no more than once a week if necessary.

If you are using the right materials and containers and properly set up your incubation container, there is never a reason to add any water or mist ever. We incubate monitor eggs for well over 100 days and never had to add a drop of water. This is one reason why using mosses and coco fiber as an incubation substrate is a very bad idea. Not to mention the fact that eggs should not be getting their humidity directly from the substrate they are in.

He recommended not incubating the separated egg with the other eggs just in case the separated egg is a dud and starts to grow fungus. If it does grow a fungus, keeping it in a separate tub will prevent the spread of the fungus to the remaining eggs.

Fungus will not affect good healthy eggs even if there is one growing fungus right next to it. I had a huge clumped clutch of corn snake eggs a few years ago. An egg directly in the middle of the pile was an infertile. That egg looked like Santas beard and none of the other eggs grew mold. If eggs grow mold or fungus, it is because the eggs is either very weak or already dead. Good healthy eggs do not grow mold. Good, healthy eggs have a very good immune system.

Do not try to separate the eggs that are stuck together, either.

When first laid, eggs can be safely and easily separated. However, in general that bit of advice is very good and I must agree.

[Teal]

Thanks yall!

So I did find some perlite today... Mind you, a bag as big as I am! LOL

I dampened the perlite and squeezed out the excess water... I laid down about 1.5 inches of it, made a little dent, put the clump of eggs in there and nestled the unattached one in with them because it looks fine, and covered them with a thin layer of more perlite (mostly because they're already dimpled, so I want them to get rehydrated)

Now, I have a HUGE concern - Since I was handling the eggs anyways, I thought I would candle them just to see what they look like...

EVERY single one, what I am assuming is the embryo (the big red splotch) is on the BOTTOM of the egg!

Like I said - I did NOT rotate them when I removed them from my female, nor since. They were already well stuck together in a clump, and even still I marked the tops. I lifted them straight out as they were (supported on a bit of cardboard).

Is there any way for them to develop like this? Or, am I just daft and this is how they're meant to be? Everyone keeps telling me the embryo should be at the "top" of the egg.

[Gregg M]

Now, I have a HUGE concern - Since I was handling the eggs anyways, I thought I would candle them just to see what they look like...

EVERY single one, what I am assuming is the embryo (the big red splotch) is on the BOTTOM of the egg!

Like I said - I did NOT rotate them when I removed them from my female, nor since. They were already well stuck together in a clump, and even still I marked the tops. I lifted them straight out as they were (supported on a bit of cardboard).

Is there any way for them to develop like this? Or, am I just daft and this is how they're meant to be? Everyone keeps telling me the embryo should be at the "top" of the egg.

It does not matter where you see the bullseye. It does not have to be on the top. That is a complete myth. It could be on the bottom, top, sides, or anywhere inbetween. The eggs will develop just fine.

[Teal]

Oh, GOOD! Thank you! I was told to rotate the eggs, like I said before.. but I just couldn't do it, even when they were telling me the embryos should be at the top.

Well, I'm a lot more confident now that these guys might make it! Thanks again!

[Chu'Wuti]

Hey, Gregg,

I can not understand why anyone would sell off a gravid snake. It can cause a multitude of problems. If someone is a snake breeder, they should know the difference between a fat snake and a gravid one very easily.


I don't disagree. However, in the man's defense, he has been going through a rough time, with (among other stressors) his homeowner's insurance being pulled because the insurer learned he was keeping snakes. After negotiating with the insurer to maintain the insurance while he divested himself of his snakes (and while seeking other insurance), he began selling off his snakes. He sold this particular snake to another person, who kept her for three months, then sold her back; it was clear she had been "maintained" in very unsanitary conditions. He increased her feedings to rebuild her strength and felt he had overfed her. She laid only 5 eggs. There were enough unusual factors that it really wasn't clear she was gravid to either of us, though I must confess I didn't check for that, which is definitely a bad decision on my part.

If you are using the right materials and containers and properly set up your incubation container, there is never a reason to add any water or mist ever. We incubate monitor eggs for well over 100 days and never had to add a drop of water. This is one reason why using mosses and coco fiber as an incubation substrate is a very bad idea. Not to mention the fact that eggs should not be getting their humidity directly from the substrate they are in.

Absolutely correct. However, this was an emergency that demanded an immediate remedy with whatever was available. I had had the snake only five days and had no plans to breed her until next year, nor was I set up for breeding at the time, because we have been remodeling--to the point that the roof and ceiling had been removed and our interior stairs were, at one point, a "stairway to heaven." I bought her partly to help my friend out of his fix and partly as part of a future breeding project, but this past fall (when she laid) was NOT a good time, as all of my supplies were in storage and inaccessible. The moss & plastic shoebox were the quickest fix I could achieve under the circumstances--both things I already had in the house that I could find easily and that would take up much space. Space was a huge issue--boxes and furniture (and snakes) were being moved from room to room as the remodeling progressed, so getting an incubator set up was extremely problematic, as it would have had to be moved multiple times during the incubation period. Under the unsettled circumstances, we felt that it would be safer for the eggs to be in the "quick & dirty" incubation solution than in a "proper" incubation setup.

Fungus will not affect good healthy eggs even if there is one growing fungus right next to it. I had a huge clumped clutch of corn snake eggs a few years ago. An egg directly in the middle of the pile was an infertile. That egg looked like Santas beard and none of the other eggs grew mold. If eggs grow mold or fungus, it is because the eggs is either very weak or already dead. Good healthy eggs do not grow mold. Good, healthy eggs have a very good immune system.

That's really good to hear. However, it wasn't my friend's opinion or experience. At least, I'll say, it didn't fit his interpretation of his experience--he'd had an entire clutch die with fungus and believed it was because he hadn't removed the first egg to show fungus. On the other hand, he told me he'd had some fairly "fungusy" eggs (that he incubated separately) go ahead and hatch perfectly healthy snakes, so suggested I keep the dud egg until the others hatched just in case it might hatch. As it turned out, the dud egg did develop fungus and did not hatch, while the other four never developed fungus--seeming to support either your or my friend's claims--and hatched four healthy Hondurans.

When first laid, eggs can be safely and easily separated.

This is something I have read contradictory opinions on. I personally am not comfortable separating the eggs, but perhaps they can be separated immediately after being laid without risk or with minimal risk. I've never tried that.

My intent in my original post was simply to reassure Teal that a successful hatching CAN be achieved even with a less-than-optimal setup, as I have been able to accomplish that myself. However, I will certainly agree that providing optimal conditions whenever possible is far better, and I much prefer to use a properly set up incubator!

Fortunately for me, we are about to get our remodeling project completed, so I will soon be able to set up my snake area and really have fun!