Tough decision....

[Will0W783]

So I have been wanting Atheris squamigera for some time now. I love the rounded head and huge eyes, and the heavily keeled scales. They are pretty hard to find around my area though.

I have a female Atheris ceratophora, a 6-year captive that is the first venomous snake I ever bought. She's awesome...she's tiny and ticked off about everything. Her colors are beautiful and she has very nice "eyelashes".

A friend of mine has a friend who owns a male ceratophora, and desperately wants my girl. He's offered me various things, and I said that I do not want to sell her but I'd be more than happy to work out a breeding loan with him.

Well, now he's offered me a pair of Squamigera and a pair of Atheris chlorechis (west African bush vipers) along with a baby if she produces in exchange for my female ceratophora.

This is a really tough one for me....I really am attached to my cerat, and I know that I can't ever replace her. She is the only one I've ever seen for sale. They aren't imported anymore, and they are very difficult to keep in captivity because most people don't realize just how cool they like their environment. She is perfectly happy at 68-75F, so basically room temperature with no additional heat.

However, I really love squams too. I don't know when I'll find squams for sale either, as they don't pop up too often.

I'm really torn right now and don't know what to do. What do you guys think?

[snake man12]

Well it's your decision but I think you should acquire the Atheris squamigera.

[alessia55]

It's a tough decision; I know how easy it is to get attached. Personally, I think that sounds like a good trade. Ultimately it's up to you and whether the small heartache is worth what you'll gain. Keep us updated as to what you do.

[Will0W783]

I'm asking for more information on the squams color. It's definitely way more monetary value than the one cerat and he'll give me a baby if they produce. My girl is a proven breeder so there's a very high chance she'll produce for him. I'm seriously considering it but want all the details to be sure.

[Lankyrob]

Go with your gut, you know already which way you are leaning, trust yourself :)

[MrBD1980]

^^^^^

I agree!

You know which way your leaning...just flow with it, instinct is a good director!

I'm sure you'll make the right choice for you!

Good luck

Brian

[Will0W783]

Well I found out some more details. It is actually an Atheris broadleyi male and a female broadleyi/squam cross (which is a very unique, one of a kind animal). My fiance looked up both species and decided he really likes them more than the horned bush viper I have, so I'm trying to get pictures of the actual animals involved so I can make a final decision. I'm leaning towards taking the deal right now....it seems a bit too good to be true though.

[Aaron_S]

It does seem too good to be true...

That's a huge thing he's giving up for that one female and you're getting crosses and nothing pure. I have a feeling he'll either sell the pair for high money or breed them and make a ridiculous amount.

I know your fiance likes the new ones but honestly, it's your snake and you love her. Personally, I'd refuse the deal. Do you plan to breed the pair or pairs he's offering? If not then what's the point in getting them?

I'd just pass since it isn't EXACTLY the species you want.

[jaleely]

It's your first ven. snake, and you'd consider trading her? Is she a lot to handle, or are you not that attached? Don't take it like i'm accusing you or anything, i'm just surprised. I think other people are right though, if you are considering it, then you must want the new snakes.
How old is she? Just curious. Does this guy just want to breed her? You're sure he'd take care of her and stuff?

[KORBIN5895]

It does seem too good to be true...

That's a huge thing he's giving up for that one female and you're getting crosses and nothing pure. I have a feeling he'll either sell the pair for high money or breed them and make a ridiculous amount.

I know your fiance likes the new ones but honestly, it's your snake and you love her. Personally, I'd refuse the deal. Do you plan to breed the pair or pairs he's offering? If not then what's the point in getting them?

I'd just pass since it isn't EXACTLY the species you want.

That is the answer Kim ( imagine that Gary came up with that by himself!).

It's a really good deal at face value and something a person like me would do. The problem is it's not really what you have been looking for. If your fiance really like them let him trade some of his collection off for them.

[Aaron_S]

That is the answer Kim ( imagine that Gary came up with that by himself!).

It's a really good deal at face value and something a person like me would do. The problem is it's not really what you have been looking for. If your fiance really like them let him trade some of his collection off for them.


That's it! You're now my new signature.

So that's +1 for my reasoning. Wooo!

[marvelfreak]

That's it! You're now my new signature.

So that's +1 for my reasoning. Wooo!
Love the new signature.:) The only problem with beating up idiots is they are to dumb to know they just got their butt kick. And keep coming back for more. Wait maybe that's the fun of beating them up. lol

[botis]

If it was 2 pure squams, I would absolutely take the deal. As is, I would definitely pass. The cerats are just too beautiful, and too hard to come across. One thing to remember about broadleyi, also, is that they lack the variability of the squamigeras. They are all, more or less, a pale olive color.

[Will0W783]

I'm honestly not sure....I want to see what the pictures look like. Of course I'm attached to the cerat; she's a good snake. She's hell on wheels, but all Atheris are and I like mean little snakes. I love broadleyi, perhaps even a bit more than squams, but I want to see what these particular ones look like, before I make a decision.

Yes, I'd breed the ones I got. The guy wants to only have one pair of snakes, so I think he'd take good care of her. I want to talk to him about it too, and make sure he is set up for her...she likes it cold. She is happy at 68-72F. She also might kill the male; that's been known to happen with cerats before.

I really like ALL the species in the Atheris genus....I get attached to all of my animals, but it's really a tempting deal for my sake, since it's two other species that I really like the looks of. I saw a pair of broadleyi at a show a few months ago and drooled over them. They were $450 for the pair or I would have snatched them up.

*sigh* I don't know...it's a tough one for me. I guess I'll see what these other guys look like and decide then.

[Will0W783]

Also, my fiance doesn't really have any snakes anymore. He has one of the male eyelash vipers and a male boa with a rib deformity. I have bought him several snakes, but since I paid for them and care for them, they are technically in my control. So I have final say, muwahahahaha!

[Aaron_S]

I'd just not take the deal anyway. What if you took his male off his hands and YOU bred them?

[jaleely]

Well I say get those pics (and share!) : )

[Kingsnakechris]

I'd just not take the deal anyway. What if you took his male off his hands and YOU bred them?

Agreed! Then it's a win win, you keep yours and he gets his....

[Will0W783]

Lol, I asked. He says he really wants to breed them himself and doesn't want to sell his male. If I decide I don't like the other snakes, I'll offer him the breeding loan again. That way we each keep our original adults, and split the babies.

Like I said, I pretty much have to see the pictures of these other snakes; I'm curious and tempted, but only because I love the other species too.

Maybe I could get one or two of the Broadleyi in exchange for a breeding loan...

[KORBIN5895]

That's it! You're now my new signature.

So that's +1 for my reasoning. Wooo!

Woohoo!

I am immortal!

Love the new signature.:) The only problem with beating up idiots is they are to dumb to know they just got their butt kick. And keep coming back for more. Wait maybe that's the fun of beating them up. lol

Whoa! Wait a minute! I am not letting Gary anywhere near my butt!

[marvelfreak]

Woohoo!

I am immortal!



Whoa! Wait a minute! I am not letting Gary anywhere near my butt!
I don't blame you. He did use to be into punk rock. You have to wonder about a guy who likes to wear leather and studs.:) lol

[Will0W783]

Ok, so I got pictures of the snakes in question finally- they're pretty cool. It's a blue-green male Atheris squamigera, a yellow/maroon/blue/brown female Squam x broadleyi cross, and a male and female Atheris chlorechis. The squam x broad looks really neat...she's in shed in the picture so it's a bit hard to tell. Also, they were sent from the guy's phone so they aren't the best quality but they all look good. The squam is a 3-year LTC, the squam x broad is CBB, and the two chlorechis are 1-year LTC. All are eating f/t food and well-established. My fiance is drooling over the chlorechis so I think I will take the deal for him to get them. I do love my ceratophora, but these guys are really cool snakes too, and I will be getting two breedable pairs of adult snakes to try to breed this season.

Male squam:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/f6ceaef8.jpg

Female squam x broadleyi:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/f9c43a2b.jpg

Female chlorechis:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/d4b9cb9c.jpg

Male chlorechis:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/23dd4f13.jpg

[MoreliAddict]

Pics are kinda small but I'm liking the chlorechis...

[Aaron_S]

I don't blame you. He did use to be into punk rock. You have to wonder about a guy who likes to wear leather and studs.:) lol

Whoa! i just really liked the music....

[MrBD1980]

Gorgeous lookers!!

Best of luck with it all!!

Brian

[Will0W783]

The pictures suck because they are cell phone pictures....but you can get the basic idea if you know the species.

Here is my horned bush viper that I'll be giving him in the trade:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/Atheris%20ceratophora/Aceratophora3.jpg

[MoreliAddict]

^^If those are rare and couldn't simply be replaced with some $$ I'd keep it. All of em pretty though, best of luck with whatever you go with.

[Will0W783]

I found a few people who can get me another ceratophora. So that shouldn't be a problem to replace her if I decide to. The ones I'm being offered are just as rare and beautiful.

[KORBIN5895]

Then get a another cerat and offer it to him.

[Will0W783]

That's what I'm planning to do- this is a great opportunity. I'll miss the cerat's evil attitude, but I'm sure the squam isn't plesant either. I just love angry bush vipers; they're tiny snakes, and they make up for it with fierce attitudes that are just comical coming from something so little. :)

[shaunyboy]

The pictures suck because they are cell phone pictures....but you can get the basic idea if you know the species.

Here is my horned bush viper that I'll be giving him in the trade:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/Atheris%20ceratophora/Aceratophora3.jpg

^^^^^
personally i'd keep the horned bush viper kimberly,she's stunning...!!

then ask the guy for a breeding loan of his male;)

cheers shaun:)

[KORBIN5895]

That's what I'm planning to do- this is a great opportunity. I'll miss the cerat's evil attitude, but I'm sure the squam isn't plesant either. I just love angry bush vipers; they're tiny snakes, and they make up for it with fierce attitudes that are just comical coming from something so little. :)

No. I meant get a new one and trade him the new one.

[alessia55]

So what's your final decision??

[beardeds4life]

If it was me and they were MY snakes I would not trade them. I would offer him a breeding loan where he gets all the babies except for one and you get the pair of the pure ones I forgot which ones those were. Then it would be a win win for everyone and you could both get to keep your adult snakes.

[Trollbie]

I wouldn't do it simply because I get too attached to my babies. But good luck Kim!

[etc]

Wonderful pictures of fascinating snakes.

I'm a little curious to know what has transpired from the situation.

[SSSSnakes]

There are some snakes that I have that are more than just a monetary value, they are part of my family and have sentimental value to me. I would not trade or sell them for any price.

[Rogue628]

^^^ What he said.

The boyfriend and I had a conversation recently about which of ours would we possibly be willing to give up if something happened to where we had to or could trade for something we may want more. Neither of us are willing to give any up, no matter the situation. Even the normal royal, which are a dime a dozen...we couldn't part with. We've both worked too much with our animals and have gotten attached.

I like Korbin's suggestion in finding another to do the trade with. It may not be a proven breeder, but it's still an animal with possibilities.

Have you made a decision yet?

[Will0W783]

I've decided to take the deal; I feel that my Gremlin will be well cared-for and this is a really good opportunity for me to help with a rare species breeding program as well as get some species that I've yearned for for years but haven't had money to buy (Squams and Broadleyi). I am supposed to meet him at the Hamburg reptile expo on August 4. The deal is, of course, pending me accepting the condition of the other snakes. They are supposed to be healthy and Justin sounds very knowledgeable, but I will have to check them out of course first. It should be fine though.

I do have animals that I would never part with for any amount of money; my Burm and cobra and my sweetheart Temple viper, for example. The ceratophora is a mean little bugger...I do like her and am attached, but not as attached as I am to, say, Shelby or Bisa.

[Rogue628]

Willow, I would honestly be very upset with you if you were to get rid of Shelby! He and Miss Buzztail are my two favorites out of your hot collection! :D

If she does produce you will be getting an offspring right? So you'll eventually get to work with the species again. :)

I hope the trade animals are in great condition for you so you get to work with other species! Good luck! :)

Oh yeah, and remember we'll want pics of your new critters :D

[SSSSnakes]

Good luck with whatever you decide. I'll be at Hamburg too, maybe I'll see you there.

[snake man12]

Pics when you you get the squams please. Lol we are like picture fiends on this forum

[Will0W783]

So I completed the trade with Justin on Saturday. I love the snakes that I got, but am a tad bit irritated about a few details. I was supposed to get an adult male green squamigera, but Justin said he was "bitten in the head" while he was boxing everything up....wtf? HOW would a snake get bitten while being packaged??? Unless he was permanently housed with other squams (a no-no, they are cannibalistic), there's absolutely NO reason he should be exposed to other snakes. I was peeved, but Justin said I could choose between a baby male squam and an adult male broadleyi. I took the male broadleyi, as he was just stunning...he looked amazing....green, yellow, mottled blue with HUGE eyes and a very keeled face. HOwever, when I got home and set the new guys up the broadleyi kept mashing his face into the corners of the cage and mouth-gaping with every breath. I informed Justin and he said it was just stress or heat because the expo was warm....the snake died within three hours. I was, and still am, annoyed. I do not think it was heat...it seems fishy to me. Justin said he will replace it with a baby male squamigera. I don't really want that; I want an adult male...preferably another broadleyi, so he and my other friend who set up the trade are trying to work something out.

The three survivors are AWESOME snakes though. I will put up pictures as soon as I finish editing them on Photobucket. They all got a small meal last night, and all three fed willingly. The little squam/broad cross snarfed hers down in like 3 seconds...fastest I've ever seen a snake eat, lol.


So.....I'm happy with the animals I did get, but ticked off royally about the male. I will be happy once he is replaced, but I'm still really devastated....he was a gorgeous animal...amazingly beautiful and to see him crash in front of eyes really was hard to handle. I cried all night.

[Will0W783]

Here they are:

Here is Nagini, female Atheris squamigera x broadleyi cross CBB in May 2012:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/ab5d5e7a.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/485b9e22.jpg

Here is the female Atheris chlorechis, who I think I will name Sefira:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/5805e205.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/5cf3e773.jpg

And the male Atheris chlorechis (no name yet...suggestions?):
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/e546aed6.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/4e00115b.jpg


Here is the male Atheris broadleyi who didn't make it :(
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/45094d0c.jpg

[millertime89]

They all look awesome Kim! I think the cross is my favorite though.

[Will0W783]

She is my favorite too. I was really excited about breeding her to the pure male. Hopefully I can get another male like him. Ugh, so frustrated....why can't things just work out smoothly for me??

[iBaman]

Wow, that male who didn't make it was a stunning animal! Poor guy. Hopefully you'll get another one just as beautiful or better!

[MrBD1980]

Hey,

Those look like some lovely snakes! I'm glad your happy with your decision but it's a real shame that you've had the upset that you have! I really hope the replacement is everything you want it to be!!

All the best

Brian

[etc]

Isn't it just great how that one that doesn't make it is the best looking one?

Unless I'm otherwise mistaken I think you got all those for a ceratophora - a good trade.

[Will0W783]

Yes I did get all of those for a female ceratophora. It was definitely a good deal, even with the three that made it. It just kills me that I had to watch that beautiful male crash and die right in front of me,....especially when he was sooo awesome-looking. :(

I'm determined to find another one. It's killing me to see the empty cage all set up.

[Aaron_S]

I'd never do business with that guy again.

You got screwed on the deal. You didn't get the original animal you wanted because "it was bitten on the head". Ask him for pics. Ask to see that wound. I think he made up a story to keep back the animal.

The male that died obviously had issues and he didn't disclose it. I'm sorry that you lost out on such a cool animal but the guy you dealt with is a tool and I would never do business with him again.

[Will0W783]

I agree Aaron....I think it's really suspicious that the original animal "was bitten on the head". I don't believe it for a second, unless the guy was stupid enough to house multiple squamigera together. You cannot do that unless it's for active breeding, and if it was a male in the process of breeding it shouldn't be sold. I cannot for the life of me imagine how a snake got bitten while it was being boxed up...it just makes no sense and it's awfully convenient. I had been offered my choice of squam or broadleyi male...Justin said he'd rather keep the squam but I decided I wanted that one. Then it gets bitten and I get the other male instead....hmmmmm...
Also, there is no way heat caused the broadleyi to crash like he did...I've seen animals overheat before and this did not look like that. This looked like a snake that had respiratory or lung issues, and stress just pushed him over the edge. He went from striking and pissed off,...to dead in a matter of minutes. I've never seen anything like it.

I'm pissed off and I intend not to do business with him again. My friend Darren suggested I take the offer...he knows this guy. I trust Darren because I've known him for a long time and he's always been honest with me. He told me that he has a male broadleyi and will try to work something out with Justin so that he can do a trade with him, then send me the broadleyi.

I want something as a replacement, because as far as I am concerned the deal is not complete as it stands; however, if I can get an animal from a three-way deal I'd much prefer that. Yes, I did get waaayyy more than my money's worth on the deal, but it's not what I originally agreed on. It's not complete until I get the four healthy animals that I was offered, and I will not let it go until I am reimbursed.

[Aaron_S]

I agree Aaron....I think it's really suspicious that the original animal "was bitten on the head". I don't believe it for a second, unless the guy was stupid enough to house multiple squamigera together. You cannot do that unless it's for active breeding, and if it was a male in the process of breeding it shouldn't be sold. I cannot for the life of me imagine how a snake got bitten while it was being boxed up...it just makes no sense and it's awfully convenient. I had been offered my choice of squam or broadleyi male...Justin said he'd rather keep the squam but I decided I wanted that one. Then it gets bitten and I get the other male instead....hmmmmm...
Also, there is no way heat caused the broadleyi to crash like he did...I've seen animals overheat before and this did not look like that. This looked like a snake that had respiratory or lung issues, and stress just pushed him over the edge. He went from striking and pissed off,...to dead in a matter of minutes. I've never seen anything like it.

I'm pissed off and I intend not to do business with him again. My friend Darren suggested I take the offer...he knows this guy. I trust Darren because I've known him for a long time and he's always been honest with me. He told me that he has a male broadleyi and will try to work something out with Justin so that he can do a trade with him, then send me the broadleyi.

I want something as a replacement, because as far as I am concerned the deal is not complete as it stands; however, if I can get an animal from a three-way deal I'd much prefer that. Yes, I did get waaayyy more than my money's worth on the deal, but it's not what I originally agreed on. It's not complete until I get the four healthy animals that I was offered, and I will not let it go until I am reimbursed.

I agree with you. No matter the monetary value or not the deal was 4 snakes for your one girl that he so badly wanted. No wonder he wanted the one you wanted. It probably isn't sick and on death's door. This Justin guy is a tool. If I was "boxing a snake up" I would have the snake out of the enclosure away from other snakes. How did this happen? SO random.


Anyway, your new ones do seem cool. At least you have them.

[Will0W783]

I agree Aaron. I'm furious and angry about the whole thing....I guess once again "too good to be true" was the way it turned out. I'm going to ask how that male squam that was bitten is doing, or better yet...ask my other friend to scope it out. There's no way this should have happened.

I'm praying that the others thrive. The little baby cross is awesome, and so are the chlorechis and I just am really nervous now.

[Aaron_S]

Quarantine! Just make sure you do it!

Sooo I'm curious. How do you get dangerous animals with sharpy pointy things in their mouths out of tiny deli cups?

[Will0W783]

Verrrryyy carefully. LOL. Honestly it's not that bad really. I cracked open the seal on the lids, without actually removing them, had my hook handy, opened the cage door, and gloved up. Then I used the hook to lift the lids off the deli cups and hooked the snake into the cage.

The two chlorechis were awesome. THey just slithered right into the cage on their own; all I had to do was hold the cup. The broadleyi required a lot of careful hook maneuvering, as he just wanted to strike over and over. I am wondering if he hurt his neck/back trying to bite me? But I wouldnt' think that did him in...I think he wasn't well.

I've removed quite a few venomous from deli cups at this point, and it's really not too bad as long as you're careful and have everything ready and set up before you think about opening the cup. Also, I am always careful to keep my fingers away from air holes. I know a guy who was envenomated by a rattlesnake that struck through an air hole in a deli cup. Yikes!

[Aaron_S]

Yup. There was an issue with deli cups and venomous snakes at a reptile show up here many years ago....

It's not something I will ever experience.

[beardeds4life]

That blows Kim. Do you know the guys address? If so you might want to make a suprise visit. With a story something like I was in the neighborhood and wanted to check on the squam with the head bite. How is he doing?

[etc]

I understand your frustration. I once had to chase down one of the biggest breeder (at least superficially) in Canada for a month because he lied to me about an animal that was sold to me. People lie, it's just the fact of life and interestingly fitting enough it seems to be more severe in the reptile hobby.

Let's not turn this into a BOI thread (shudder), but I really hope you get to the bottom of it and get this issue sorted.

Anyhow, I see that you are keeping a lot of your arboreals in what seems to be exo terra cages. Do you have any difficulties in achieving humidity levels in those cages?

[Will0W783]

I must frequently, so I haven't really had an issue. With arboreals you need high humidity but also good air flow, so these cages seem to work as well as anything else. I also use PM Herps cages but for smaller vipers I prefer all glass so that I can quickly find them in the cage. They blend into the decor quite well. With the good ventilation and misting twice a day, they seem to do well.

[Will0W783]

I don't know exactly where he lives, but he's up in New York about four hours from me, so a visit is out. If he were closer, I'd be over there asking for a replacement snake. I just don't know what to think, but as long as the others survive and he eventually makes good on another snake, I'll be satisfied. I'm not going to start a BOI- I have no proof he did anything wrong, and if it was an honest mistake I don't want to burn bridges right away. All I have is evidence of a dead snake (no definitive cause of death) and the story of the squam bite. The other three snakes are all doing great and are beautiful valuable animals..... So only time will tell how I will feel in the end.

[SSSSnakes]

I don't know exactly where he lives, but he's up in New York about four hours from me, so a visit is out. If he were closer, I'd be over there asking for a replacement snake. I just don't know what to think, but as long as the others survive and he eventually makes good on another snake, I'll be satisfied. I'm not going to start a BOI- I have no proof he did anything wrong, and if it was an honest mistake I don't want to burn bridges right away. All I have is evidence of a dead snake (no definitive cause of death) and the story of the squam bite. The other three snakes are all doing great and are beautiful valuable animals..... So only time will tell how I will feel in the end.

FYI If he lives in NY and is breeding venomous snakes, he is illegal. They don't let you breed or sell venomous snakes in NY. You can check with the DEC if you have any questions.

[DragonsEye]

Beautiful snakes!

I agree that it seems rather odd and awfully convenient that the snake you were supposed to get got "bitten on the head". As Aaron and others have mentioned, I'd keep hounding him and have your friend, Darren, check out that "head bite". If the snake seems okay, tell the guy you still want it as the replacement he owes you.

[Will0W783]

I'm going to give Darren a call tonight and touch base with him to see if he has talked to the guy about working out a way for me to get another broadleyi.

[Aaron_S]

If he can't keep them legally in NY then I'd find out about his local bylaws. Not because you should necessarily go after him but it's good to have in your back pocket.

[etc]

I believe NYS stopped issuing venomous permits so there are no more new ones being handed out, but he may have been grandfathered-in with his old permit.

Best of luck Kim, keep us updated..

[SSSSnakes]

I believe NYS stopped issuing venomous permits so there are no more new ones being handed out, but he may have been grandfathered-in with his old permit.

Best of luck Kim, keep us updated..

There is no such thing as Grandfathered in in NY. They are still granting new venomous permits, because I just helped my friend get his. But they are only given for Scientific, Educational or Exhibition purposes. You can not get them to keep venomous snakes as pets, to breed them or to sell them. You must also prove your purpose for getting the license and meet all the requirements.

I just think that if someone is willing to do business illegally, how much can he be trusted to be honest in his dealings.

[etc]

There is no such thing as Grandfathered in in NY. They are still granting new venomous permits, because I just helped my friend get his. But they are only given for Scientific, Educational or Exhibition purposes. You can not get them to keep venomous snakes as pets, to breed them or to sell them. You must also prove your purpose for getting the license and meet all the requirements.

I just think that if someone is willing to do business illegally, how much can he be trusted to be honest in his dealings.

Right, I meant issuance to the private keepers - along with big snake permits too I believe.

[SSSSnakes]

Right, I meant issuance to the private keepers - along with big snake permits too I believe.

There are no licenses given to private keeper, you have to have an active purpose for your license. Venomous snake can not be kept as pets in NY. The larger snake did not have a license until this year. This year they have been added to the Venomous License, as stupid as that may sound.

If you have any doubts about what I'm saying you can contact the NYSDEC Division of Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources, Special Licenses Unit


I deal with them all the time changing and updating my 3 different licenses. I have a Venomous License, for my venomous and large snakes. A Endangered and Threatened License for my Timber Rattlesnakes. And a Collect and Possess License for all native NY snake, like my Eastern Milk, Eastern Garter, Black Rat and Ribbons.

[etc]

There are no licenses given to private keeper, you have to have an active purpose for your license. Venomous snake can not be kept as pets in NY. The larger snake did not have a license until this year. This year they have been added to the Venomous License, as stupid as that may sound.

If you have any doubts about what I'm saying you can contact the NYSDEC Division of Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources, Special Licenses Unit


I deal with them all the time changing and updating my 3 different licenses. I have a Venomous License, for my venomous and large snakes. A Endangered and Threatened License for my Timber Rattlesnakes. And a Collect and Possess License for all native NY snake, like my Eastern Milk, Eastern Garter, Black Rat and Ribbons.

Nah, I am not doubting you. I am just wondering how people like Al Coritz or Gregg Madden were wrong on this subject.

I had researched into this topic because I was close to relocating to NYS.

Twitter / Viperkeeper: NYS has stopped issuing new ... (http://twitter.com/Viperkeeper/status/178654163482312704)

Gaboon Vipers with Gregg Madden 10/31 by Larry X BT | Blog Talk Radio (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptileradio/2010/10/31/gaboon-vipers-with-gregg-madden) @ the 17:00 mark he talks about the rumours of grandfathering/honouring old venomous permits but I guess that never happened.

[etc]

Also, if you want to get technical I believe the transporting of venomous animals is illegal through NYS borders.. but I imagine that's hard to be enforced in a domestic setting.

[SSSSnakes]

Nah, I am not doubting you. I am just wondering how people like Al Coritz or Gregg Madden were wrong on this subject.

I had researched into this topic because I was close to relocating to NYS.

Twitter / Viperkeeper: NYS has stopped issuing new ... (http://twitter.com/Viperkeeper/status/178654163482312704)

Gaboon Vipers with Gregg Madden 10/31 by Larry X BT | Blog Talk Radio (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptileradio/2010/10/31/gaboon-vipers-with-gregg-madden) @ the 17:00 mark he talks about the rumours of grandfathering/honouring old venomous permits but I guess that never happened.

The DEC had for a while stopped issuing licenses, but has started giving them out again. Many people don't know what they are talking about or they out right lie. I have seen fake licenses that people have made on their PCs. I got my first venomous snake when NY was about to start making keeping them illegal without a license, thinking I would be Grandfathered in. There was never any such thing as Grandfathered in. Instead of listening to what other have to say that don't know what they are talking about, you just go to the main source, (DEC) and find the truth.

[SSSSnakes]

Also, if you want to get technical I believe the transporting of venomous animals is illegal through NYS borders.. but I imagine that's hard to be enforced in a domestic setting.

You are correct. Any venomous snake that is brought into NY, for any reason, even temporarily, must be on a License. There is also no such thing as a temporary or Day license.

[etc]

The DEC had for a while stopped issuing licenses, but has started giving them out again. Many people don't know what they are talking about or they out right lie. I have seen fake licenses that people have made on their PCs. I got my first venomous snake when NY was about to start making keeping them illegal without a license, thinking I would be Grandfathered in. There was never any such thing as Grandfathered in. Instead of listening to what other have to say that don't know what they are talking about, you just go to the main source, (DEC) and find the truth.

Yeah, there's a lot of people keeping venomous when they shouldn't be - whether legally or illegally. There's a lot of stupid people doing everything else. I don't just listen to what anybody has to say on the subject but the few out there advocating, including the names I mentioned have been worth listening to, whether it's about the legality aspect or else.

I guess you can still get a private permit under a pretense, since it seems that you don't need to sign any affiliation to an exhibition or a research centre at the time of signing.

Anyhow we have derailed as much, we should hope best for Kim and her replacement.

[Will0W783]

I don't mind the derailment; it's an interesting topic and one people need to be aware of. I do not know what this guy has permits for or not. I did text him yesterday and he told me the bitten male is coming along and should live. If it has been bitten, I would not want it even if it did recover- no telling what underlying damage could have been done.

I am going to sit tight and wait for a replacement. If nothing comes through with a 3-way deal, I will get a baby. As long as he gives me a baby for free, I will be happy.


The other three are doing great so that's a plus at least. They are all very gorgeous animals too...I just love Atheris!

[SSSSnakes]

I don't mind the derailment; it's an interesting topic and one people need to be aware of. I do not know what this guy has permits for or not. I did text him yesterday and he told me the bitten male is coming along and should live. If it has been bitten, I would not want it even if it did recover- no telling what underlying damage could have been done.

I am going to sit tight and wait for a replacement. If nothing comes through with a 3-way deal, I will get a baby. As long as he gives me a baby for free, I will be happy.


The other three are doing great so that's a plus at least. They are all very gorgeous animals too...I just love Atheris!

Hope everything works out for you. Atheris was the second kind of venomous snakes that I kept.

[Will0W783]

Well I found a local guy selling an unsexed (presumed female) Atheris broadleyi on Fauna. I'm going to get that girl; that way, I can wait until the other guy has a male squam for me. I can also do a breeding loan with Darren to get pure broadleyi. If all works out, that will in the end give me the ability to produce 75% squam (squam male x cross female), pure broadleyi (breeding loan) or more 50% crosses (broadleyi female x squam male). I just have to work out a time and place to meet up to get the broadleyi girl. :)

[MoreliAddict]

Well I found a local guy selling an unsexed (presumed female) Atheris broadleyi on Fauna. I'm going to get that girl; that way, I can wait until the other guy has a male squam for me. I can also do a breeding loan with Darren to get pure broadleyi. If all works out, that will in the end give me the ability to produce 75% squam (squam male x cross female), pure broadleyi (breeding loan) or more 50% crosses (broadleyi female x squam male). I just have to work out a time and place to meet up to get the broadleyi girl. :)
"Snakes are like potato chips...you can never have just one!"

[beardeds4life]

Well I found a local guy selling an unsexed (presumed female) Atheris broadleyi on Fauna. I'm going to get that girl; that way, I can wait until the other guy has a male squam for me. I can also do a breeding loan with Darren to get pure broadleyi. If all works out, that will in the end give me the ability to produce 75% squam (squam male x cross female), pure broadleyi (breeding loan) or more 50% crosses (broadleyi female x squam male). I just have to work out a time and place to meet up to get the broadleyi girl. :)

cool :bouncy:

[Will0W783]

So it looks like I'm going to be picking her up tomorrow night. I'm spending the day with ViperKeeper and his collection...then off to get another addition to my collection. Who could ask for a better day?

[etc]

A day with Al Coritz at the lair, sounds fabulous.. Take lots of pictures for us.

[Rogue628]

So it looks like I'm going to be picking her up tomorrow night. I'm spending the day with ViperKeeper and his collection...then off to get another addition to my collection. Who could ask for a better day?


Congrats and I'm so jealous! Every since I really became interested in hots, I found him on youtube and have watched every video he's put out. Although some of his methods can be considered a bit unorthodox, it amazes me that understands some of his animals well enough that they seemed to have built some sort of trust between them. He has some that he's really in tune with that he's able to give them a bit more freedom and it seems to have made them a better tamed animal. I love watching his videos, especially when he's feeding. He has a few I'm quite fond of watching him feed.

My son loves to watch him because he sees him as treating them like animals, with humanity.

He should make an episode with you helping him feed :D lol

[beardeds4life]

That is an awesome day :D

[Will0W783]

It was a great time as usual. Al's a really nice guy. This time I got to move some Sashimi Habus out for soaks and cage-cleaning....the little buggers just leaped off the hooks and I had to chase them around to catch and rehook them. I swear Al's snakes try extra hard to make me look like an idiot in front of the expert. He assured me that I'm progressing and that it happens to him too, lol. I also got to spend some time with Slinky the Jameson's mamba. Slinky is AWESOME! He is very laid-back and tame so he comes out onto the table to check things out and was sniffing in my direction and watching me. It was amazing but very scary to have a mamba two feet away from me on a table!

And the new broadleyi is doing great. She's a bright sunflower yellow with some brown banding and her tail area fades into the blue-green that is typical of broadleyi. Her head structure is a bit different than the male I had, so I'm not sure if one of the two was misidentified. Even if this one turns out to be a squamigera, she's a lovely girl at a good price! I'll get pictures up once I let her settle for a few days. I had rather a busy day yesterday...check out my thread "Life will never be the same" in the general discussion section for details.

[Rogue628]

Glad you had a great time! Slinky's one of my favorites :D

[Will0W783]

Slinky is amazing in the flesh...the texture of his scales is very unusual. He's smooth, yet there is a slight sandpaper-ish feel, very slight. I think it is because of their arboreal tendencies.

[Rogue628]

What animals of his did you get to interact with? His King Cobra is another of my favorites but Slinky is just amazing! I don't know if I could have sat there that close to him, knowing how deadly he could be but being all friendly at the same time. It makes me wonder if he was always just really mellow, taken to constant handling by humans and is intelligent enough to realize the humans that feed him mean him no harm. Or maybe he's just curious about them lol

I can't wait to see pics of your new girl. As always you always have good looking animals. Even your new birdie is quite a charmer :)

[Will0W783]

I have been over there three times now...I've worked with the Macrovipera turanica, the Sashimi Habus, fed a few other guys, moved the Naja atra to a holding bin to clean his cage, cleaned the Black Beast's cage and worked with him a bit, and fed Weasel (Moorish viper). It's amazing and the best experience I could get to work with all those incredible animals! I've watched Al work with the King, but I'm a tad nervous about him. He's very fast and sneaky.

[Rogue628]

The Black Beast! That was the other one, but couldn't remember his name. He's pretty awesome too. I can't remember which one Weasel is at the moment.

Glad you had a great time with him. Working with Al's animals is a real treat, I think :)

[Will0W783]

Beast is a sweetie..he loves to decorate his cage with feces though...it was dripping down the doors. Weasel is a Moorish viper and a denizen of Psycho Towers. He hissed at me the entire first time I was there, but has since accepted that I will sometimes be there and now he's cool with me. He shed this time so I have a nice souvenir. ;)

[Will0W783]

Here's a picture of the new girl that the seller sent me. It's not the best, but it gives an idea of her. She is way smaller than she looks in the picture...maybe 8 inches long at most.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/636e1951.jpg

[millertime89]

Pics of your trip to viperkeeper's place?

[Will0W783]

I'll make a thread. I have the pictures on my desktop computer at home. It might take a few days to find time to edit them and upload them, but I'll get them. :)

[Rogue628]

I'll make a thread. I have the pictures on my desktop computer at home. It might take a few days to find time to edit them and upload them, but I'll get them. :)


I wasn't gonna ask because I thought you'd have some to post later. lol Can't wait to see those! :D

And your new girl looks freaking awesome!

[Will0W783]

Thanks! I love her. She's snippy but that's what bush vipers are supposed to be. :)