Burm/ball hybrid

[snake man12]

I wan't one. Any info would be appreciated. Isn't it beautiful?:cool:

The BurmBall Burmese x Ball python Hybrid - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=S-TXm3SDwsM)

[infernalis]

Personally, My feelings are this..... That abomination poses a threat to the true royals, since many states are banning giants, the moment giant BP's become common, it's entirely possible, or maybe even likely that they will modify the bans.

Come on people.. what exactly does this crossing accomplish?? the hobby is suffering already without giant Royals in the picture.

[snake man12]

That is true but we don't know how big they get? I read in the youtube comments the snake was an accident

[jaleely]

That was clearly done on purpose.

[infernalis]

and it clearly looks to have inherited the size gene from the Burm.

[dave himself]

I dont really see the point of crossing a ball and burm. But I think the retic X burms are stunning imo

[CDN_Blood]

Personally, My feelings are this..... That abomination poses a threat to the true royals, since many states are banning giants, the moment giant BP's become common, it's entirely possible, or maybe even likely that they will modify the bans.

Come on people.. what exactly does this crossing accomplish?? the hobby is suffering already without giant Royals in the picture.

I agree 100%. It's not secret that I think that any & all hybrids are abominations and it makes me *so* angry that anyone would even consider them, let alone create them. It's entirely unethical and unnatural. If it were up to me, creating hybrids would be criminalized and they existing hybrids would be destroyed in order to preserve original genetic codes.

[Gungirl]

I don't understand how breeding 2 snakes is an accident. If you put a male and female together they will breed 99% of the time. Accident my butt....

[stevenrudge]

l had a bust up on other forum about hybrid Burms/African Rocks--but this is even more stupid and TBH dangerous to the hobby,some people can see no further than their nose,the guy who's done this has/will lose a lot of respect with this

[StudentoReptile]

I don't agree with it either.

But surprisingly, this cross has been around for a while. Its not exactly new news.

[DeesBalls]

dont agree with it, one more thing for the press and media to see is now a "burmese python can breed with other snakes, making all super snakes" or some noncense like that.

yea, how was it an accident? lol

i will say, it was a cool looking snake though, but still dont see why to do it.

[stevenrudge]

The issue with hybrids is quite simple
1-we are polluting the captive gene poll of species /Taxa that we are not sure we will be able to replace in the future
2- can we trust hobbyist to be responsible with accurately recording and tracking the resulting hybrid offspring?if we look at our track record of colour morphing the only answer we can honestly give is no
3- Just because we can do's not mean that we should,with our hobby under constant attack we need all the friends we can get,we need to show that we our responsible,and by producing rep's just because we think that they look cool and are not interested in the long term harm that this do's then we are showing that we are not

[KORBIN5895]

This reminds me of that movie where they crossed a cobra and a rattlesnake....

[GarterPython]

You have to admit it is awesome! I don't agree with it either but this guy is something. He looks awesome.

[StudentoReptile]

This reminds me of that movie where they crossed a cobra and a rattlesnake....

I have encountered a handful of people who INSISTED they had a red-tailed boa x ball python cross that they bred themselves. Sometimes the only response I can give is....[after rolling eyes/raised eye brow] "So anyway..."

[Slcburm]

That's what we need. A big *** snake that won't eat. Lol

[Snakefood]

Personally, I like BP's Because they are small (you know, for a python!!)

[KORBIN5895]

I have encountered a handful of people who INSISTED they had a red-tailed boa x ball python cross that they bred themselves. Sometimes the only response I can give is....[after rolling eyes/raised eye brow] "So anyway..."

Haha! I am laughing so hard tears are running down my leg!

How much were they asking for it?

[StudentoReptile]

Personally, My feelings are this..... That abomination poses a threat to the true royals, since many states are banning giants, the moment giant BP's become common, it's entirely possible, or maybe even likely that they will modify the bans.

Come on people.. what exactly does this crossing accomplish?? the hobby is suffering already without giant Royals in the picture.

Although I'm not a fan of hybrids in general, and certainly not wild about this particular crossing...I'm relatively confident that PIJAC and the mainstream pet industry will help protect BPs. After all, that is a common petstore reptile at this point, and the big box companies like PETCO and PETsMART, as well as PIJAC, will fight tooth and nail to keep BPs available in petstores everywhere.

If we were talking about a burm x retic cross, or a Afrock x burm cross, then I would be more concerned since none of those are exactly mainstream "beginner" pets you find at the local pet shop.

Somewhat related, most of the more recent laws regarding large constrictors, specifically mention "and any hybrids of" said species. So technically, the burmball falls under the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act and cannot be transported across state lines because it involves the crossing of a Burmese python.

[StudentoReptile]

Haha! I am laughing so hard tears are running down my leg!

How much were they asking for it?

I forget. But its always fun to watch their face when I ask them "So you were able to cross an egg-laying snake with a snake that gives live birth? How did you do it?"

Oh the stories I could tell...BTW, anyone ever hear of a hognose boa? Had a fella swear up and down he had one of those. I pointed to a cage [this was at the LPS I worked at] with baby Hog Island boas and asked him if it was perhaps one of those. He said, nope, doesn't look anything like that. I then got really excited, and told him that I had never heard of a hognose boa before, much less seen one, and that he should bring it in for me to look it. Not too surprisingly, I never saw the guy again.

[Gregg M]

I agree 100%. It's not secret that I think that any & all hybrids are abominations and it makes me *so* angry that anyone would even consider them, let alone create them. It's entirely unethical and unnatural. If it were up to me, creating hybrids would be criminalized and they existing hybrids would be destroyed in order to preserve original genetic codes.

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?

It can be considered entirely unethical and is 100% unnatural to keep snakes in cages in your home. It is not natural for them to be kept on news paper. It is not natural for them not to bask in natural sunlight. It is not natural for them to get fed white lab rodents. It is not natural for YOU to pick who breeds with who. When you breed reptiles in captivity, there is no natural selection. Natural selection is thrown out the window once you pair up your breeders. So, you are not preserving any original gentic codes. Besides that, hybrids have been produced for over 20 years and the gene pools are not destroyed and it is very easy to find pure animals.

What makes what you do any more ethical than someone who breeds two animals of a different species and creates some cool looking offspring? Nothing at all, so get off the high horse, Mr. "ethics". All this talk about ethics yet you are keeping (and breeding?) a carpet python morph that is as well known for its neurological defect as it is for its cool pattern. Way to go preserving those all important original genetic codes!! A bit hypocritical, dont you think?

Hybrids are not my favorite but there are quite a few that I do like. I woud also never tell someone who breeds them that they are criminals. To each their own. Whats great about this hobby is how diverse it is and hybrids just add to that diversity. Bring them on!!!

[StudentoReptile]

Well said, Gregg.

My only beef with hybrids is the possible reduction and muddying to pure bloodlines. I don't necessarily have a problem with the hybrid animal itself. But when I want a pure locality BCI, or alterna, or whatever, I don't want a mutt.

[Gregg M]

But when I want a pure locality BCI, or alterna, or whatever, I don't want a mutt.

And they are easily obtainable. Many anti hybrid people try to play the "muddy blood" card all the time but have yet to prove their case. I too love my pure stuff and like you, if I am looking for something particular, I do not want a mutt. But if I saw a really crazy hybrid that I liked, I would buy it in a second.

Here is a male wild caught gaboon rhino viper hybrid.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3419/3965115353_323ae66b62_o.jpg

And here are some F2 gaboon rhino viper hybrids. Yes the hybrids are very fertile.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2473/3964013371_2e8cd24db4_o.jpg

[StudentoReptile]

And they are easily obtainable.


For most cases, this is probably true. But I'm sure there are some cases where the species/subspecies/locality in question is not that easy to come by, yet hybrids are made anyway.

Again, like you, I don't think its fair to tell anyone not to do it anymore than its fair to tell someone its not okay to linebreed, or feed live in a separate container, or whatever. As with anything else in this hobby, there's people who obviously create hybrids responsibly and accurately represent them. And there's people who don't care and just toss things together (so to speak, I know there's a little more to making a hybrid than that).
----------------------------
One of my personal pet peeves (100% my own opinion, and not a judgment on what should or shouldn't be done) is ugly hybrids. I know you can never really tell what the offspring is going to look like, but you can kinda guess. And if it comes out and grows up to be butt-ugly, for the love of crap, don't produce anymore!

[snake man12]

Those pics are beautiful.

[jaleely]

I didn't think CDN_blood bred snakes...

As for the gaboon rhino viper hybrid, where did they find that thing? lol
I love, love, love gaboon vipers...i love their look all on their own. I'd like some more pics of that lil guy. The babies are kind of...not as pretty as a regular gaboon *lol*

[Gregg M]

I didn't think CDN_blood bred snakes...

As for the gaboon rhino viper hybrid, where did they find that thing? lol
I love, love, love gaboon vipers...i love their look all on their own. I'd like some more pics of that lil guy. The babies are kind of...not as pretty as a regular gaboon *lol*

He was wild caught in west Africa. Came in on an import from Ghana. He was an adult when he was imported. These wild caught hybrids come in pretty often. Wild caught female gaboons that were gravid at the time of import have dropped entire litters of hybrids as well.

As far as CDN_Blood not breeding, that is neither here nor there. I just found it funny that he says this....

I agree 100%. It's not secret that I think that any & all hybrids are abominations and it makes me *so* angry that anyone would even consider them, let alone create them. It's entirely unethical and unnatural. If it were up to me, creating hybrids would be criminalized and they existing hybrids would be destroyed in order to preserve original genetic codes.

Yet is is fine for him to own a MORPH (not a subspecies) that carries a gene that give it a neurological disorder. Whats worse, creating a healthy good looking hybrid or perpetuating genetics that make your snakes wobble, cork screw, and flip on their backs?

[stevenrudge]

And they are easily obtainable. Many anti hybrid people try to play the "muddy blood" card all the time but have yet to prove their case. I too love my pure stuff and like you, if I am looking for something particular, I do not want a mutt. But if I saw a really crazy hybrid that I liked, I would buy it in a second.

Here is a male wild caught gaboon rhino viper hybrid.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3419/3965115353_323ae66b62_o.jpg

And here are some F2 gaboon rhino viper hybrids. Yes the hybrids are very fertile.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2473/3964013371_2e8cd24db4_o.jpgYou could say that your both right,my main objection is that the way legislation is moving the future free movement of reps ( import/ export/ overland)is looking doubtful at best,and 10 -15 years in the future we do not want to be in the position of not being able to obtain pure true lines of captive species and not being able to obtain replacement W/C stock,in the way that the various Locals have come into play,and your point about natural hybridization,yes of course this happens but its not very common and these hybrids are not going to live in a confined gene poll are they,in their wild state their genes would naturally disperse back or might as you say from a new spp or local,this is un-proven,l like your response to certain problem morphs these are un-ethical and posse a bigger problem

[CDN_Blood]

I didn't think CDN_blood bred snakes...
I don't, but at some point I may breed one of my Rainbow boas to help encourage the move to smaller, legal boas in my own area since there don't seem to be any Rainbows around here and Boa constrictors are prohibited.

Is someone saying I breed snakes? That'd be just what we need - more misinformation from folks who don't know what they're talkin' about, lol :D

[Gregg M]

You could say that your both right,my main objection is that the way legislation is moving the future free movement of reps ( import/ export/ overland)is looking doubtful at best,and 10 -15 years in the future we do not want to be in the position of not being able to obtain pure true lines of captive species and not being able to obtain replacement W/C stock,in the way that the various Locals have come into play,and your point about natural hybridization,yes of course this happens but its not very common and these hybrids are not going to live in a confined gene poll are they,in their wild state their genes would naturally disperse back or might as you say from a new spp or local,this is un-proven,l like your response to certain problem morphs these are un-ethical and posse a bigger problem

Well thought out post and an actual good reponsed why you are not crazy about it.


Is someone saying I breed snakes? That'd be just what we need - more misinformation from folks who don't know what they're talkin' about, lol :D

No one said you were breeding. I put the word breeding in question form because I did not know if you were ore not. Here is what I said so it does get twisted.

What makes what you do any more ethical than someone who breeds two animals of a different species and creates some cool looking offspring? Nothing at all, so get off the high horse, Mr. "ethics". All this talk about ethics yet you are keeping (and breeding?) a carpet python morph that is as well known for its neurological defect as it is for its cool pattern. Way to go preserving those all important original genetic codes!! A bit hypocritical, dont you think?

[Will0W783]

I think the hybrids are fine if they are clearly represented as such and the gene pools of pure species are maintained as well. There are some hybrids that cause a lot of problems to the snakes, and are rarely viable, but many of the hybrids do just fine and are really neat-looking.

Look at what's going on in the Everglades for an example of wild, semi-natural hybridization: the Burmese python population is hybridizing with African rock pythons. The two species are extremely closely related, but the offspring are larger than either parent and have shown to be much hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells.

[StudentoReptile]

Look at what's going on in the Everglades for an example of wild, semi-natural hybridization: the Burmese python population is hybridizing with African rock pythons. The two species are extremely closely related, but the offspring are larger than either parent and have shown to be much hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells.

Oh dear god...please tell me you're joking. Please tell me you do not believe that is true. Can you provide references?

As far as I know, only six Afrocks have been found in Florida since 2002, and not in the areas where Burmese have been documented. There is no evidence that the two species have successfully hybridized in Florida, nor is there there any evidence that such a crossing would be "hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells."

Again...I'd like to know where you are getting your information from to back that claim.

[Will0W783]

I thought they had documented proof of hybridization and the hybrids were bigger? They're not "Super snakes" or any real threat beyond the Burms, but I could have sworn I read something actually documenting genetic proof of hybrids. I could be wrong though. I certainly don't believe all the ridiculous hype that goes on. Most of the populations of Burms, Afrocks AND others have died out because of the really cold winter Florida had.

[Aaron_S]

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?....


I know it's become a generalized hybrid debate but show me the wild caught burmese x ball python hybrid and we can then talk all about the natural intergrades.

One point to make about locale purity is that some snakes regions cross over. Most notable is the Guyana and Surinam regions and their locale boas. Only we as people have made imaginary lines through the jungle that these snakes do not obey. I'm sure there's more crosses of these that just happen to look like one of the parents out there as a "pure".

As stated though, in the wild the bloodlines get diluted back through more breeding or simply they don't make it to adulthood to reproduce.

[Will0W783]

As stated though, in the wild the bloodlines get diluted back through more breeding or simply they don't make it to adulthood to reproduce.


Yep! This is one of the reasons we have to be careful what we do breeding-wise in captivity. We've removed natural selection and evolutionary pressures, so it's completely our responsibility to ensure we only breed healthy animals.

[StudentoReptile]

There's a few "news" articles floating around there with statements from "scientists" that claim the two species could hybridize (which is plausible; it certainly happens in captivity). But as far as I can tell no one has ever found the two species copulating with each other, nor has anyone actually ever found an actual hybrid.

Its all speculation, and the media has hyped it up in that "Super Snake" special you;re referring to. Given the small market for Afrocks compared to Burms, and taking into account that burms have established themselves in Florida decades before anyone ever found the first Afrock, AND...with the recent rule listing that bans importation of both species, and the ROC law that prohibits ownership of both in Florida.......it is doubtful that Afrocks will ever become really established enough down there to become a real threat, so such a hybrid is even more unlikely.

And I personally don't think they are any more equipped to handle Florida's climate than Burms (perhaps less so), so I don't know why a hybrid would be MORE adaptable.

[Will0W783]

Thanks....yeah it's probably mostly conjecture, although I think the two species could hybridize as they are very very closely related.

[Aaron_S]

There's a few "news" articles floating around there with statements from "scientists" that claim the two species could hybridize (which is plausible; it certainly happens in captivity). But as far as I can tell no one has ever found the two species copulating with each other, nor has anyone actually ever found an actual hybrid.

Its all speculation, and the media has hyped it up in that "Super Snake" special you;re referring to. Given the small market for Afrocks compared to Burms, and taking into account that burms have established themselves in Florida decades before anyone ever found the first Afrock, AND...with the recent rule listing that bans importation of both species, and the ROC law that prohibits ownership of both in Florida.......it is doubtful that Afrocks will ever become really established enough down there to become a real threat, so such a hybrid is even more unlikely.

And I personally don't think they are any more equipped to handle Florida's climate than Burms (perhaps less so), so I don't know why a hybrid would be MORE adaptable.


What your thoughts on why it may be less equipped to handle Florida's climate?

[StudentoReptile]

What your thoughts on why it may be less equipped to handle Florida's climate?

Note "perhaps."

I suppose it would depend on which species of Afrock we're talking about.

Seems like the Burm's native environment is a slightly closer match to southern Florida than that of Python sebae natalensis. Python sebae sebae....meh, about the same.

[Gregg M]

I know it's become a generalized hybrid debate but show me the wild caught burmese x ball python hybrid and we can then talk all about the natural intergrades.


I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

[Aaron_S]

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?


I see your point but I'm just not going to debate it. It's a discussion I rather not get into as it's never ending.

I see your point as I mentioned on what you were talking about with natural intergrades.

I think it's interesting that two animals can make hybrids. Fertile ones at that. It's personally not something I wish to do though. I prefer all my pretty colours.

[jaleely]

He was wild caught in west Africa. Came in on an import from Ghana. He was an adult when he was imported. These wild caught hybrids come in pretty often. Wild caught female gaboons that were gravid at the time of import have dropped entire litters of hybrids as well.

I think that's kind of cool, actually. I still like the look of a plain old gaboon viper though! : )



I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

ah kind of a good point. I mull over this a lot. I kind of disagree with muddy lines, but then i also believe that if they weren't close enough genetically to breed, then it just wouldn't happen...and therefore may not be a big deal.

I also go back and forth about morphs. Some people made some good points about the garters and other snakes in Europe that have been "inbred" for generations, because that's all that were available. I DO think that there had to be some pretty strong genetics to begin with to last this long, and i do think that picking out morphs can sometimes also strengthen genetic faults...in the case of all the snakes coming from one set of parents, people aren't breeding morphs, they're just breeding to breed them...so perhaps some traits aren't strengthened, but may be passed on but are recessive. When it comes to specific pattern and color breeding, as with morphs, i guess i just wish snake temperament and health played a bigger factor rather than color and pattern.

I don't know. Sometimes i am swayed. lol I admit it. We'll have to see how i feel after i breed. I plan to breed my dumeril's boas, sand boas, and hognoses, maybe my garters, all in the future *shrug*

[KORBIN5895]

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

Do you have proof to support this? First hand experience maybe?

[moshirimon]

Check this out. Retic X Ball

http://wallflowerherps.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/7/9/2579131/5801646_orig.jpg?549

[snake man12]

Now that's a snake!!!

[moshirimon]

Looks like genetic stripe ball X goldenchild retic. That's just what it looks like not too sure exactly what they mixed

[Gregg M]

Do you have proof to support this? First hand experience maybe?

Yeah, take a look at hybrids that can produce viable offspring. So far, every species of snake that has been hybridized successfully are fertile. If their gentic codes did not match up, we would not even be having this debate. My first hand experience is with my gaboon/rhino viper hybrids. You can not deny what happens infront of your face. Obviously, there are certain crosses that can not happen in reptiles because of their genetic differences.

Taxonomy is a man made ology. LOL. What taxonomist used to believe is flipped upside down because of viable, fertile reptilian hybrids. These animals are a lot closer related than we once thought.

[infernalis]

One has to really look WAY back, snakes have been with us longer than any other living animal, Many appear to have only been separated by continental drift.

There are some species on other continents that are nearly identical, with the exception of whatever evolutionary cards they have been dealt.

Here in North America we have the smooth green snake, over in China they have the "giant green snake" (Cyclophiops Major) both are virtually identical in every way, except the Chinese snake grows six times the size of the North American green snake. The N.A. version brumates in the winter, the Rain forest version has warm weather year round, the Chinese snakes eat larger insects, so I think it would stand to reason that the ones in China have evolved into larger snakes.

Rat Snakes are another great example, Rats must be very old snakes, they are everywhere in one form or another.

Who knows, but I would bet that if you went back millions of years, that most snakes share a common ancestry, or the genetics would not be so darn close.

[KORBIN5895]

Yeah, take a look at hybrids that can produce viable offspring. So far, every species of snake that has been hybridized successfully are fertile. If their gentic codes did not match up, we would not even be having this debate. My first hand experience is with my gaboon/rhino viper hybrids. You can not deny what happens infront of your face. Obviously, there are certain crosses that can not happen in reptiles because of their genetic differences.

Taxonomy is a man made ology. LOL. What taxonomist used to believe is flipped upside down because of viable, fertile reptilian hybrids. These animals are a lot closer related than we once thought.

Well Greg I never took you yo be one of them!

Go back and read what I put in bold. Maybe you will feel differently about admitting it on a public forum!

[FangsAnarchy]

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?

It can be considered entirely unethical and is 100% unnatural to keep snakes in cages in your home. It is not natural for them to be kept on news paper. It is not natural for them not to bask in natural sunlight. It is not natural for them to get fed white lab rodents. It is not natural for YOU to pick who breeds with who. When you breed reptiles in captivity, there is no natural selection. Natural selection is thrown out the window once you pair up your breeders. So, you are not preserving any original gentic codes. Besides that, hybrids have been produced for over 20 years and the gene pools are not destroyed and it is very easy to find pure animals.

What makes what you do any more ethical than someone who breeds two animals of a different species and creates some cool looking offspring? Nothing at all, so get off the high horse, Mr. "ethics". All this talk about ethics yet you are keeping (and breeding?) a carpet python morph that is as well known for its neurological defect as it is for its cool pattern. Way to go preserving those all important original genetic codes!! A bit hypocritical, dont you think?

Hybrids are not my favorite but there are quite a few that I do like. I woud also never tell someone who breeds them that they are criminals. To each their own. Whats great about this hobby is how diverse it is and hybrids just add to that diversity. Bring them on!!!


Thank you!

[Gregg M]

Well Greg I never took you yo be one of them!

Go back and read what I put in bold. Maybe you will feel differently about admitting it on a public forum!

LOL. I didnt catch the statement in bold dude. LOL. To answer that question, no I have no first hand experience with trying to breed with primates. Although I am sure I would creat some really good looking monkeys if I did. LOL.

[marvelfreak]

I forget. But its always fun to watch their face when I ask them "So you were able to cross an egg-laying snake with a snake that gives live birth? How did you do it?"

This can be done ? Sweet i'll put my male Yellow Anaconda with my female Blood Python tonight and make the first every Blood Anacondas.:shocked:

Just joking. lol Already done it and have eggs in the incubator. lol:wacky:

[GUITARZAN509]

Neat looking but personally i dont agree with the hybred thing in tropical fish or any animal

[exwizard]

Yeah its not for everybody. Personally, I dont have a problem with it under certain conditions:

1- The seller of the hybrid is up front and honest about what it is that he/she is selling

2- The health and well being of the babies or the breeders is not sacrificed in order to produce said hybrid.

I know other peoples opinions will differ on this. This is just where I am coming from. I dont own any hybrids but I am facinated with Carpondros and Bateaters. Time will tell I guess, but I really doubt I will ever have a Bateater since Retics are illegal here.

The OP video of the Burmball is pretty cool looking but I think this goes beyond where I would draw the line for me.

[stevenrudge]

TWENTY snakes have been euthanased after they were found to be a hybrid of two native species.

Environment officials in Adelaide say the snakes were advertised for sale by a licensed breeder and were found to be a cross between Bredi pythons and coastal carpet pythons.

Cross-breeding native species is illegal.

"We don't like to have to euthanase animals, but there are a number of problems associated with cross-breeding of species," SA fauna permits unit manager Sonya Nicholls said.

"We are not trying to stop people from keeping or selling protected natives.

"But it is very important that everyone who does this understands their legal requirements, as well as their social and environmental obligations."

Ms Nicholls said it was important that breeders maintained the purity of genetic stock to ensure the long-term survival of Australia's native species.
l've just found this on another forum
your thoughts

[Snakeman8]

typical for purist, complaining about something thats new and calling it an abomination.

[KORBIN5895]

typical for purist, complaining about something thats new and calling it an abomination.

Typical of someone who has their head shoved so far up their own butt they don't understand how ignorant it is to break laws that will affect others in this hobby.

[GUITARZAN509]

personally, my feelings are this..... That abomination poses a threat to the true royals, since many states are banning giants, the moment giant bp's become common, it's entirely possible, or maybe even likely that they will modify the bans.

Come on people.. What exactly does this crossing accomplish?? The hobby is suffering already without giant royals in the picture.
agreed, shouldnt mess with mother nature

[Snakeman8]

shouldnt this be considered an intergrade since their in the same genus?
they dont get very big, seven to eight feet adults.
i would love to make a clutch of these, then keep one and sell the rest.
korbin, your oppinon doesnt matter at the moment.

[EmbraceCalamity]

agreed, shouldnt mess with mother natureIn all fairness - not that I'm defending the hybrids because I don't really care either way - pretty much everything we ever do with herps is messing with mother nature. We keep them in artificial environments, completely stop natural selection, and breed them for specific patterns and morphs.

~Maggot

[Little Wise Owl]

I think the hybrids are fine if they are clearly represented as such and the gene pools of pure species are maintained as well. There are some hybrids that cause a lot of problems to the snakes, and are rarely viable, but many of the hybrids do just fine and are really neat-looking.

This.

Back onto the Burm/Ball... I've heard they have very nasty temperaments. They're beautiful though.

[Snakeman8]

they do have bad tempers, i saw one up close, man! talk about anger issues!

[EmbraceCalamity]

they do have bad tempers, i saw one up close, man! talk about anger issues!I bolded the important part for you.

~Maggot

[Snakeman8]

i love hybrids, especially my hybrid rat snake.

[Loucifer]

I'd rather an angry Burm/Ball over a Spider with Parkinson's, any day!

[Snakeman8]

I'd rather an angry Burm/Ball over a Spider with Parkinson's, any day!
haha same here!

[KORBIN5895]

shouldnt this be considered an intergrade since their in the same genus?
they dont get very big, seven to eight feet adults.
i would love to make a clutch of these, then keep one and sell the rest.
korbin, your oppinon doesnt matter at the moment.
[/QUOTE]

Opinion? What opinion? I was just stating fact.

[Snakeman8]

stay on subject, or is that to hard for you?
anyway, if their in the same genus, it should be considered an intergrade, and no, doesnt depend on what side of the world their on.
i want one.

[Aaron_S]

I'd rather an angry Burm/Ball over a Spider with Parkinson's, any day!

LOL...everyone likes to beat up on the morphs. Sour grapes.

[Aaron_S]

stay on subject, or is that to hard for you?
anyway, if their in the same genus, it should be considered an intergrade, and no, doesnt depend on what side of the world their on.
i want one.

LOL...same genus? Okay. You're well educated google opinion doesn't count here. See I can do it too!

Both are pythons. Doesn't mean they should breed.

I'm a purist. If someone wants to breed two species together, awesome. Whatever. I don't care. My problem is when I go to buy a burm or a ball, I DO NOT want the unpure bloodlines for MY breeding projects. Snake hybrids are fertile and can reproduce. Breed the burm/ball to a burm or a ball and you just get really cool looking burms or balls then and could passed off as a unique "pure".

Look at carpet pythons. Plenty are muddled and it's tough to really pick out a purebred. It's sad really. Especially since it's for the "cool factor" solely.

[KORBIN5895]

stay on subject, or is that to hard for you?
anyway, if their in the same genus, it should be considered an intergrade, and no, doesnt depend on what side of the world their on.
i want one.

Oh like your ignorant comments about "purists" who are just obeying the laws? Gotcha...

[bcr226]

I think the hybrids are fine if they are clearly represented as such and the gene pools of pure species are maintained as well. There are some hybrids that cause a lot of problems to the snakes, and are rarely viable, but many of the hybrids do just fine and are really neat-looking.

Look at what's going on in the Everglades for an example of wild, semi-natural hybridization: the Burmese python population is hybridizing with African rock pythons. The two species are extremely closely related, but the offspring are larger than either parent and have shown to be much hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells.

Do you have any links to the hybrid burms and rocks? I'm very interested in learning more about that. Especially with them becoming hardier and resistant to cold.

A few years ago, there was a snake found in the Sleepy Creek WMA in WV. The people that found it said it was a rattler but that it didn't look like any of the species found around here. Someone mentioned a possible hybrid between two rattler species here that could have created it. Never heard anything more about it afterwards.

[Loucifer]

LOL...everyone likes to beat up on the morphs. Sour grapes.

Nah, not all of em. Just the spiders & caramel albinos. Would loooove me a Clown and/or Pied! :D

[Snakeman8]

that snake clearly couldnt be be passed as a pure, only a fool would think it was pure!

[GUITARZAN509]

In all fairness - not that I'm defending the hybrids because I don't really care either way - pretty much everything we ever do with herps is messing with mother nature. We keep them in artificial environments, completely stop natural selection, and breed them for specific patterns and morphs.

~Maggot
LOL !! THats not even close to being the same thing !!Some people need to start pulling their head out of the sand ! Breeding things together that arent natural can hurt the hobby, Anything to make an almighty dollor these days i guess

[EmbraceCalamity]

LOL !! THats not even close to being the same thing !!Some people need to start pulling their head out of the sand ! Breeding things together that arent natural can hurt the hobby, Anything to make an almighty dollor these days i guess...What? I stated very clearly I wasn't defending it because I don't have an opinion. The person stated that we should never mess with mother nature, and the fact is, we all do in one way or another. I even gave examples of how we do that. I'm sorry you couldn't grasp that, but it's really quite simple.

~Maggot

[Snakeman8]

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?

It can be considered entirely unethical and is 100% unnatural to keep snakes in cages in your home. It is not natural for them to be kept on news paper. It is not natural for them not to bask in natural sunlight. It is not natural for them to get fed white lab rodents. It is not natural for YOU to pick who breeds with who. When you breed reptiles in captivity, there is no natural selection. Natural selection is thrown out the window once you pair up your breeders. So, you are not preserving any original gentic codes. Besides that, hybrids have been produced for over 20 years and the gene pools are not destroyed and it is very easy to find pure animals.

What makes what you do any more ethical than someone who breeds two animals of a different species and creates some cool looking offspring? Nothing at all, so get off the high horse, Mr. "ethics". All this talk about ethics yet you are keeping (and breeding?) a carpet python morph that is as well known for its neurological defect as it is for its cool pattern. Way to go preserving those all important original genetic codes!! A bit hypocritical, dont you think?

Hybrids are not my favorite but there are quite a few that I do like. I woud also never tell someone who breeds them that they are criminals. To each their own. Whats great about this hobby is how diverse it is and hybrids just add to that diversity. Bring them on!!!
i agree! except i adore hybrids.

[guyabano]

The idea of hybrids intrigues me. I remember seeing a Bateater x Retic if i'm not mistaken. It looked pretty cool too.

[Snakeman8]

jungle retics are so cool looking!