So you think inbreeding snakes is fine?

[Will0W783]

A lot of people in the reptile world seem to think that breeding siblings or a generation or two of inbreeding snakes won't cause the offspring any harm. I happen to think differently. I understand that there are times that to prove out a trait as genetic, the easiest way is to line breed. But there IS a lot of risk in doing so. What can happen is that weaknesses pop up in the genome that might not express themselves right away or might pop up but not be dramatic enough to make people shy away.

I was at the Oaks reptile expo yesterday and saw an eyeless monocled cobra FOR SALE!! This poor thing was born with no eyes and hadn't eaten yet and it was half price compared to the normal siblings. I was furious, and ended up bringing it home for free to see if I could help her. Snaggletooth, as I've been calling her, has no teeth on the right side of her mouth, and a cleft lip. She seems to have a fang on the left side, but I don't know if it is functional. She did get some food down after I placed it in her mouth and pushed it partway down past her jaws with hemostats. I was wearing gloves and gripping the animal directly behind her head for my safety. I do not know whether she can survive, or even if it is worth making her try. She's in really bad shape and it breaks my heart to see. Her parents were line-bred albino monocled cobras, so they were basically cousins. In the clutch of 42 eggs, only 13 hatched. One egg had twins that were very small compared to the single-baby eggs, and then there was Snags. It was the female's first season, but something was obviously wrong to have so many bad eggs and twins and a deformed baby.

I'm going to give Snags a shot, but if I think she is suffering at any point, I will have her euthanized. I just wanted to show people what can happen when we aren't careful how we breed our stock. Morphs can be produced without so much inbreeding- it takes longer and it's harder and takes more generations to determine genetics of the traits, but I firmly believe that it's doable without inbreeding, and is the only way to create morphs safely and fairly.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/d222eb82.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/Will0W783/2946eb9c.jpg

[mykee]

That's disgusting. Should have been thrown in the freezer right out of the egg.

[Will0W783]

I agree. But she was there for sale. It was sad. I figured since she was kept alive, might as well give her a chance. I don't think she will make it though.

[BarelyBreathing]

That's horribly sad. Poor girl.

[Hillsberry]

Geez, poor girl! :(

[Gregg M]

There is no possible way you attribute this condition to inbreeding. In the many years I have been breeding reptiles, I have seen similar deformities and even worse come out of unrelated pairs. Only difference is, I feed off any deformed animals I hatch out no matter how slight they may be. Luckily, it happens very infrequently.

The fact is, inbreeding, for the most part, is of very little risk. The fact that the huge majority of captive stock is inbred (especially morphs) with very few issues (no more than outcrossed stock) tells the story.

Also, that is just one animal from an entire clutch that has the deformity. If it were tied to genetics, you would most likely see that occur more often.

There could have been many factors at play to have caused this deformity. Could have been incubation, could have been just a screw up in the DNA structure. Could be anything.

So WILLOW,
Can you tell me how you can prove out a recessive morph without inbreeding at all?

[Will0W783]

I don't know Gregg...I figured that her problems had to be from inbreeding. But I suppose that incubation temp fluctuations could have caused it too. I am not sure how you'd prove out the recessive trait without inbreeding- you'd need two different originators of the trait, and I know that sometimes that isn't possible. I think that we all just need to be careful to try to do it as little as possible. Not sure..it's a tough call. I was just really upset that this poor snake was for sale for profit, and the breeder didn't seem to see anything wrong with it.

[Will0W783]

Perhaps we should change this title of the thread to something about a discussion of breeding issues and how to avoid them/deal with them? I don't want to start arguments with anyone; I just want to try to understand how this poor snake got like she is, and why someone would try to sell her for profit? Also, how I might be able to help her, if I can. My veterinarian will not see venomous to euthanize her humanely, so I don't know what to do other than try to help her live. I'm just sad for her and had thought that the problems she had had to be due to her parents being related?

[Gungirl]

Honestly I would just euthanize her... I think she has suffered enough.

[Will0W783]

How can I do that humanely without a veterinarian? I don't want to cause her any more pain.

[Gungirl]

Crush the head in one hard wack with a hammer.. Tube her and only leave enough sticking out to hit. It is nasty but painless.

[Will0W783]

Ok. I will wait for my fiance to get home so I can have help. I'm just so sad over the whole situation. :(

[Gungirl]

I don't blame you and I also would have taken the snake home but the best thing I think to do is to end the struggle..

[Will0W783]

Probably..it's just she's so active and curious. But I don't know what kind of life she could ever have. The only way is if she could decide to get food down on her own. I can't see assist-feeding a snake for years. It's too much stress for the animal, especially since it can't see what's going on. If she can envenomate anything, she's also more dangerous with not seeing where I am versus where food is, etc.

If she was blind but had normal mouth structure, she'd be fine...it's just such a shame and hard to deal with, but I'll do what's best for her. She doesn't deserve to suffer.

[Gungirl]

I think you are making the best choice.. Although it is a hard one it.

[Will0W783]

I know. It's hard but best.

[alessia55]

Poor Snags... that looks awful :no: I also agree that euthanizing her at this point is the most humane thing to do. :(

[Hillsberry]

Kim what about dry ice! It is a painless death!

[Gregg M]

Perhaps we should change this title of the thread to something about a discussion of breeding issues and how to avoid them/deal with them? I don't want to start arguments with anyone; I just want to try to understand how this poor snake got like she is, and why someone would try to sell her for profit? Also, how I might be able to help her, if I can. My veterinarian will not see venomous to euthanize her humanely, so I don't know what to do other than try to help her live. I'm just sad for her and had thought that the problems she had had to be due to her parents being related?

This is the crappy part about breeding that many people just getting into it dont know about. Deformities happen. It sucks but it is the way it is. It is an unfortunate part of breeding reptiles. Luckily the rewards far outweigh the bad stuff that happens infrequently.

The condition of the snake is not the problem. The problem is the breeder who was trying to sell it instad of culling it.

I think you are doing a good thing by giving it a chance. I would give it a little time to take food on its own. If it does not eat on its own, it will not have any quality of life and you can be putting your own life at risk having to force feed it all the time.

Kim what about dry ice! It is a painless death!

Hold a chunk of dry ice and tell me how painless it is.
Blunt force trama to the brain is the quickest and most humane way.

[Will0W783]

Thanks Gregg. I guess we will see how it goes.

[snake man12]

Omg I saw this this at the glades herp vendor.

[Gregg M]

Omg I saw this this at the glades herp vendor.

Ah, those guys. Not suprized.

[Hillsberry]

Hold a chunk of dry ice and tell me how painless it is.
Blunt force trama to the brain is the quickest and most humane way.

No thanks because I know that will burn you. :D But if you didn't know, if you place dry ice into water it turns into CO2 aka Carbon Dioxide. If Kim places the snake into a tub or closed box and places a bowl inside the box with water and the dry ice. There will be a lack of oxygen and the snake will fall asleep. In my opinion that is the safest way. I know Kim personally and I know hitting the snake in the head with a hammer will only make her even more upset.

[Hillsberry]

And also missing the snake while trying to hit it can come into play also, even if the snake is in a tube. Just saying.

[Will0W783]

This snake wasn't from Glades Herp, but I was not terribly happy with their table either. Their prices were insane.

[Gregg M]

No thanks because I know that will burn you. :D But if you didn't know, if you place dry ice into water it turns into CO2 aka Carbon Dioxide. If Kim places the snake into a tub or closed box and places a bowl inside the box with water and the dry ice. There will be a lack of oxygen and the snake will fall asleep. In my opinion that is the safest way. I know Kim personally and I know hitting the snake in the head with a hammer will only make her even more upset.

Co2 is highly ineffective on reptiles as they take in very little oxygen. The use of Co2 gas to euthanize reptiles is not an acceptable method.

[snake man12]

There was another table right next to glades with venomous. And the table next to glades had all there albino cobras de-venomated

[jaleely]

I have strong opinions about breeding, but i'm going to set that aside for now.

I would see if you can get her to eat smaller food...maybe live pinkys or something. I don't know how big she is.
At this point, she may not be in any pain since the deformities are missing eyes, an a cleft pallet. It may just be a difficult survival.
It shouldn't have come about, and now that it has...though i am against it exsisting, it's already here...and with animals i find it VERY hard to put them down. It doesn't know any different, and it may n ot be in pain. If she's active and curious...she may feel fine.

It's a hard call, because she's also venomous. Do cobras have heat pits? She may be able to sense food still...can she flick her tongue? she may be able to smell it.

Hard to say.

If you decide to put her down, which will be sooo hard but may also be the way....i would actually suggest decapitation. One very swift hard chop. VERY hard, very fast, no missing or half strikes.
Freezing can be felt by reptiles, low oxygen makes them panic and takes them a long time...you may be able to find a vet who can give you a shot for her....may take some more research, they are pretty difficult about that kind of thing.

I don't envy you, but over all i think taking her home was best because i know YOU will do what's best for the animal, where as obviously she was not taken care of either way where she was, and someone else may have just tortured her trying to take care of her improperly.

*Hugs* poor you and poor snake!

[Lankyrob]

Decapitation has been found to not be effective, there are numerous stories of the head still moving and "striking" at people, the most effective way is full cranial destruction.

[Will0W783]

Melissa, that's pretty much how I feel. The kindest thing to do would have been to euthanize her as soon as she pipped her egg. However, once she was out, shed, and fully independent of the egg yolk, it would be harder. She's somewhere between a month and two months old.

She is from the table that had the other cobras- he had a venomoid adult, a venomoid EDB and some other intact EDBs, as well as the baby cobras. I've got mixed feelings about venomoids... you should be able to handle your snakes as they are in nature, but in some cases of educational shows, maybe it could be rationalized. I've known the guy for years, and had always had good dealings with him. He trained me to work with cobras, I got Shelby from him, and I always thought him one of the good guys....now I've pretty much lost any respect for him.

My fiance just got home and we discussed her situation. She got the food from this morning down all the way to her belly- I can see the bump in her. So she can swallow at least. I think if she can figure out that the smell of mice means food, she can eat small food items more frequently. However, she is far far from out of the woods. I will continue to assess her condition day-to-day and we'll see what happens. That's pretty much all that I can do- it's just a shame that she was allowed to be like this.

[StudentoReptile]

I agree that decapitation is not a humane way of euthanization for a reptile. As nasty and messy as it is, total and instant cranial destruction is the best way to go if you take it to a vet for a lethal injection.

[infernalis]

I wish you (and snaggle) all the best.

Just a couple things I want to say..

I have a friend with a Fox snake that was born with no eyes, that was years ago, and he would never part ways with his precious blind fox snake.. Heck I have a snake that was born with only one eye, the difference is the breeder was going to put the snake down, he never offered it for sale to anyone, I offered to take it off his hands and promised to put it down if needed, that was last year and my snake is still doing great, I just make sure I only photograph it from the side that has an eye.

The other point I wanted to make, he breed all the way to F4/F5 and aside from occasional bug eyes, the offspring still turn out fine, he also crossed two completely unrelated animals, one from Mertyl Beach, the other from Canada (WC localities) and the whole litter was born messed up.. so line breeding could not possibly have come into play there, heck they were two entirely different morphs, however.. The following year the same pair produced a full litter of perfect babies.

[Will0W783]

Hmm, I suppose we will never know what caused Snags' issues. I'm not worried about the lack of eyes- snakes can live just fine blind, same as we can. What concerns me is the jaw and tooth deformities, and the fact that she's between a month and two months old and hasn't fed on her own yet. I'm hoping that she didn't know what food smells like and that she'll be able to take it on her own next time, or I'm a few feedings. If she can eat and shed, she can have a good life. I don't think I can safely force feed her forever, or that it'd be fair to her to make her go through that every week for years. She is still potentially deadly, until it's proven that she lacks glands and teeth for venom delivery- and the jury is out on that one. She didn't kill the live pink when she bit it last night, but the teeth may develop as she grows. I'm going to do all that I can for her, and try to ensure that she's kept comfortable, however this ends.

[Aaron_S]

Kim,

Sometimes it just happens and we can't figure it out without looking deeply into the snake on a genetic level.

Humans still have deformities even with all of our advanced medical technology so nature still has a way of things.

[Will0W783]

I know Aaron. I would think if it was incubation temp issues, all the eggs would have been affected, but who knows. I will never know what happened to her; just that she's in a bad way. The real issue was the seller trying to make a profit off of her deformities. When it's time to feed her next, I'm going to try to get her to at least bite a live pinky, so I can try to determine if she's capable of envenomating. I'm assuming that she is, and taking precautions like tubing, gloves and long tongs, but it will help determine how good of a chance she's got and how severe the internal deformations are.

[KSTAR]

I hate seeing all the little guys hurt looking

[infernalis]

I agree that decapitation is not a humane way of euthanization for a reptile. As nasty and messy as it is, total and instant cranial destruction is the best way to go if you take it to a vet for a lethal injection.

I am lucky to live where I do, If I really need to put down an animal, I take them out back and do the deed with a gun.

[Gungirl]

I am lucky to live where I do, If I really need to put down an animal, I take them out back and do the deed with a gun.

Ditto.. I don't think I could imagine waiting to take my pet to the vet knowing they where in pain and had to get put down anyways. I would rather end the suffering as soon as possible.

[mykee]

So to answer your original question:

"So you think inbreeding snakes is fine?"

Yes.

[Lankyrob]

I am lucky to live where I do, If I really need to put down an animal, I take them out back and do the deed with a gun.


We dont have guns here but i have had to euthanize a number of pets with a shovel or hammer, i rarely if ever bother with the stress of taking a sick animal to the vet.

[mykee]

It's funny how people use the word "euthanize" and "shovel", "gun", or "hammer" in the same sentence.

[Snakefood]

well a gun can be used for euthanization if you put the bullet in the right spot, and I guess a hammer (in the case of snakes could be used for that too) but unless the shovel is only there to dig the hole, I can't see how using a shovel is humane!!

[infernalis]

well a gun can be used for euthanization if you put the bullet in the right spot

12Ga shotgun, point blank range.... It's over in a fraction of a second.

[Lankyrob]

A shovel is a perfectly good "tool" for either cranial destruction of reptiles or decapitation of mammals :)

[Snakefood]

12Ga shotgun, point blank range.... It's over in a fraction of a second.

a .22 behind the ear works too, and just as fast.

[Snakefood]

A shovel is a perfectly good "tool" for either cranial destruction of reptiles or decapitation of mammals :)

I hope we're talking small mammals??? I gues I am biased about the whole shovel thing because we had some sicko here in BC take a shovel to his dogs head, thinking this was a perfectly acceptable way of "euthanising" the poor thing, I can't imagine how many blows it took and how badly the dog suffered, all i could think was to give ME a shovel and 10 minutes alone in a room with this **********!!!!!!

[Lankyrob]

Usually cats and rabbits/guinea pigs, i have used it on a dog but it was a single thrust to an already seriously injured animal (had been hit by a bus). I would never (i hope) cause any suffering to any of them, it is over in milliseconds :)

[Snakefood]

I would hope the same thing!!

Rabbits and Guinea pigs we use cervical dislocation to take out.

My cats and dogs, I wus out on and take them in to the vet and have them overdosed with barbituates, even in order to stop the suffering, I don't know if I have the fortitude to do it to my own loves, by my own hand. Although, I know if neccesary, my landlord would take my dog behind the barn with the .22 if I asked him to.

[Will0W783]

Ugh, I can't imagine someone trying to "euthanize" a dog with a shovel....at that point it becomes cruelty. Decapitation is quick and somewhat humane in mammals, but not in snakes because of their more primitive system- people have been bitten by snake heads hours after decapitation. I'm not sure about the cranial destruction- if you could be sure that you destroyed ALL of the brain instantly, then it would be humane; I just can't see myself doing that. But then what could I do at home? I'm honestly not sure.


As for the inbreeding issue, while there's no way to tell if it played a part in this snake's problem, I still firmly do not believe it is "fine." I think that inbreeding should be avoided if at all possible and in the cases where proving out a trait necessitates it, then it should be minimized. We KNOW for a fact that inbreeding causes problems in humans (look at how many of the royal families over the centuries have had issues) and that it can cause problems in other mammals (look at purebred dogs vs. mutts), so why would it not affect reptiles? I know that isolated populations in the wild are somewhat inbred, but they have evolutionary pressures so that only the healthiest babies survive anyway.
I know I'm in the minority on the subject, and I'm perfectly fine with being in the minority, but I don't like inbreeding in reptiles. It's pretty much why I gave up on trying to breed ball pythons and such- I am too upset by the genetic weaknesses (spider wobble, kinks, etc) that are accepted as "just part of the traits". It's not for me. Just my $0.02, but I think we're going to end up with sicker and sicker animals unless we all take precautions to keep populations as diverse as possible. That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Snakefood]

well technically "inbreeding" and "line breeding" are different things and I agree with you that inbreeding should be limited.

Also using the purebred vs mutt eg for dogs is really an old wives tale. That thought pattern was popular 10-15 years ago, but it has been proven time and again that hybrids are not always healthier than purebreds.

I'll try to explain; both huskies and golden retrievers have the genetic weakness for both food and environmental allergies, therefore by crossing the 2, we have actually "double whammied" them for these problems. Both Rotties and Burmese mntn dogs have the genetic weakness for bone cancer, same thing, crossing them gives them a much greater chance of ending up with bone cancer, I could keep listing similar crosses who would not be "healthier" than thier puerbred counterparts all day. So to have healthy hybrids, you need to know what their genetic makeup is and what each breeds weaknesses are and make sure they are not double or triple whammied with the same thing.

[exwizard]

Case in point:

Black Betty and Popeye from Nebraska
Arwen from Kansas City as a pet
Gandalf from House of Scales
Euryale from Missouri
Kermit from GoLizards
Miss Piggy from Des Moines

Each one pf my Dums are completely unrelated and I can mix and match as I please

[Will0W783]

Exactly Snakefood....we just need to be careful how we breed.

[Snakefood]

yes!! I fell for the "hybrids are healthier" 13 years ago and my husky x retriever is allergic to the whole world!!

I'm talking there are 3 foods on the market he can eat, and he has to have allergy shots every month in order not to suffer horrible hot spots (from enviromental allergens), that split and bleed, get swollen, infected ears and other horrible symptoms.

if he gets ahold of a piece of bread on the floor (I have a kid), then I have to start pumping him full of pills so his symptoms don't explode. and there is my "healthy hybrid"

[infernalis]

A pratical method for humane euthanization with cold blooded herps.

Place in refridgerator for 30 minutes, metabolism slows to a near halt, then move immediatly to the freezer overnight.

As the water in the brain cells freezes it will burst cells and once frozen solid, it's all over.

[StudentoReptile]

A pratical method for humane euthanization with cold blooded herps.

Place in refridgerator for 30 minutes, metabolism slows to a near halt, then move immediatly to the freezer overnight.

As the water in the brain cells freezes it will burst cells and once frozen solid, it's all over.

Wayne, I have heard from various circles that even this practice is not entirely humane, mainly because of the same reasons directly into the freezer isn't suggested; because of the low oxygen levels in the circulatory system, the blood freezes before the nervous system shuts down. I suppose a lot would depend on exactly how cool someone keeps their refrigerator, and how long it takes for the metabolism to slow to a point where any pain is minimal.

I would like to know the exact process of this before I would suggest it to others. Currently, I'm sticking with "cranial destruction" as the most ideal DIY euthanasia.

[infernalis]

Wayne, I have heard from various circles that even this practice is not entirely humane, mainly because of the same reasons directly into the freezer isn't suggested; because of the low oxygen levels in the circulatory system, the blood freezes before the nervous system shuts down. I suppose a lot would depend on exactly how cool someone keeps their refrigerator, and how long it takes for the metabolism to slow to a point where any pain is minimal.

I would like to know the exact process of this before I would suggest it to others. Currently, I'm sticking with "cranial destruction" as the most ideal DIY euthanasia.


Me too, but as an alternative for people who cannot bring themselves to smash an animal's head in, it's better than allowing the animal to suffer for days/weeks/months...

[StudentoReptile]

Me too, but as an alternative for people who cannot bring themselves to smash an animal's head in, it's better than allowing the animal to suffer for days/weeks/months...

That is true.

[Jay]

a .22 behind the ear works too, and just as fast.

Less messy and quieter as well.

[infernalis]

a .22 behind the ear works too, and just as fast.

Just tossing this out there,, I was standing in the barn when dad used a .22 behind the ear on a pig, that animal started running around squealing, it took a total of 6 .22 caliber bullets to finally drop that pig.

The point I am trying to make here is that a .22 bullet is quite small, even though they can be lethal, there's a reason that police don't carry .22 pistols on their belts.

Law enforcement has upgraded from 9mm to a larger caliber because even a 9mm (quite a bit more mass than a .22) is not enough stopping power to drop a meth head coming at them.

Yes big bore guns are messy, but they do the job with less margin of error.

[MoreliAddict]

It's funny how people use the word "euthanize" and "shovel", "gun", or "hammer" in the same sentence.
I euthanize all sorts of pests in my house with my c02 powered silver dragon airsoft gun. http://www.lilwaynehq.com/forums/images/smilies/grin.gif

http://www.airsoftmagic.com/images/silver%20dragon%20airsoft.jpg

[jaleely]

snakefood you said: " well technically 'inbreeding' and 'line breeding' are different things"

How exactly? lol no really, i want to know the difference!

to me inbreeding from wikipedia: Inbreeding is the reproduction from the mating of two genetically related parents. Inbreeding results in increased homozygosity, which can increase the chances of offspring being affected by recessive or deleterious traits. This generally leads to a decreased fitness of a population, which is called inbreeding depression. A person who results from inbreeding is referred to as an inbred.

therefore, any kind of genetically related parents...cousins, who become parents together, mother-son...line 4 to line 5 or whatever...

Bottom line here is, it will be hard to ever convince me it is okay in any way, when it seems that 99.9% of breeders are just out to either make a name for themselves, make a buck, or both. *shrug*

[Snakefood]

when breeding animals, inbreeding is defined as breeding brother to sister, ie: 2 animals with the exact same genetic makeup.

line breeding is defined as breeding parent to offspring, cousin to cousin, ect... where the genetic makeup holds the desired gene (yes from the same bloodline) but the genetic makeup of the animals to be bred is not exactly the same (which only happens when BOTH parent animals are the same)

it is only considered to be advantageous to do every 4th generation or more (as in 5th,6th,7th gen). doing so more often is when you see defects in the offspring.

You also have to consider that inbreeding and line breeding happens all the time in the wild, do you really think that the wild snakes figure out whether they are related before doing the deed?? Opportunity knocks when male meets female and offspring occur. And since many species of snake don't roam far from thier birthplace, I have a feeling it happens more often than not in the wild than in captivity.

I am not trying to convince you of anything, however, with my ample background in the animal care field, I can provide truthful, proven information to those who want to know.

I do however take exception to the statement about breeders only wanting to make a name or a buck. I breed snakes, my goals have nothing to do with "making a name" and I certainly have not made any money. If I do actually make a profit in the future, cool, but it was never the goal.

My goal is to be able to provide healthy morphs of my chosen species to my area, where the morphs I am breeding up to are simply not available.

And if I ever had a chance to help save a species or sub species through knowlegable breeding, I would absolutly JUMP at the chance!!

[Jay]

You have different morals, and there's no shame in that.

[Gregg M]

when breeding animals, inbreeding is defined as breeding brother to sister, ie: 2 animals with the exact same genetic makeup.

line breeding is defined as breeding parent to offspring, cousin to cousin, ect... where the genetic makeup holds the desired gene (yes from the same bloodline) but the genetic makeup of the animals to be bred is not exactly the same (which only happens when BOTH parent animals are the same)


Line breeding and inbreeding is the exact same thing. There is no difference at all.

it is only considered to be advantageous to do every 4th generation or more (as in 5th,6th,7th gen). doing so more often is when you see defects in the offspring.

In reptiles, this has never proven to be the rule. Most times, inbreeding goes much futher out. Many of the top reptile breeders have the same breeding stock for 20 plus years with no issues. they bred sibs to sibs, sibs to parents, cousin to cousin, and so on in order to improve on visual traits.

You also have to consider that inbreeding and line breeding happens all the time in the wild, do you really think that the wild snakes figure out whether they are related before doing the deed?? Opportunity knocks when male meets female and offspring occur. And since many species of snake don't roam far from thier birthplace, I have a feeling it happens more often than not in the wild than in captivity.

This I agree with 100%.


I do however take exception to the statement about breeders only wanting to make a name or a buck. I breed snakes, my goals have nothing to do with "making a name" and I certainly have not made any money. If I do actually make a profit in the future, cool, but it was never the goal.

When it comes down to it, ones goals for breeding reptiles is unimportant. It all boils down to the same thing. We as humans are being selfish no matter how you slice it. Your personal goals are no better than anyone elses even if they are doing it to make money. I make lots of money breeding reptiles. I would still breed them if I didnt make money, but admittedly, I would be doing it on a much smaller scale if I were not making money.

As long as the animals are well cared for and are provided with proper husbandry, the goal does not matter.

My goal is to be able to provide healthy morphs of my chosen species to my area, where the morphs I am breeding up to are simply not available.

No different than the girl or guy doing it to make a profit.

And if I ever had a chance to help save a species or sub species through knowlegable breeding, I would absolutly JUMP at the chance!!

We all know that this is something that rarely if ever happens in the private sector. This type of thing is generally left to zoological parks and sanctioned breeding programs. These things almost never fall into the hands of private keepers.

[Snakefood]

ones goals may be unimportant to YOU, however personal goals are important to the person who has those goals, and the intent does make it different, whether you agree or not.

[Gregg M]

ones goals may be unimportant to YOU, however personal goals are important to the person who has those goals, and the intent does make it different, whether you agree or not.

Of corse ones goals are important to them. Thats why they try to reach that goal. Overall, each individual goal is meaningless and unimportant in the grand scheme of things. The intent makes no difference as long as the animals health comes first.

What makes your goals any less selfish than someone who does it for money? Self satisfaction, just because you want to, to make money, to make a name for yourself. Whats the difference? These are all personal reasons and have nothing at all to do with helping the animals.

Its not whether I agree or disagree. It is a matter of fact. You can not say that you breeding to provide cool morphs to the masses is any more noble than someone who does it to pay the bills.

When you come on here and say you are involved in a breeding program for some endangered reptile species and will be releasing the offspring into the wild, that is when you can say you are breeding for the right reason. Anything short of that is JUST a reason. Not right or wrong.

[limey]

Law enforcement has upgraded from 9mm to a larger caliber because even a 9mm (quite a bit more mass than a .22) is not enough stopping power to drop a meth head coming at them.

Yep, we upgraded to 40 caliber pistols last year, because those 9mm's just weren't putting down the crackheads!

Sometimes you just need a bit more stopping power... job done quicker. I should think a .22 would be more than adequate for most small to medium size snakes however.

Best wishes to Snags, hope he does okay. This is a sad story.

[Snakefood]

Of corse ones goals are important to them. Thats why they try to reach that goal. Overall, each individual goal is meaningless and unimportant in the grand scheme of things. The intent makes no difference as long as the animals health comes first.

What makes your goals any less selfish than someone who does it for money? Self satisfaction, just because you want to, to make money, to make a name for yourself. Whats the difference? These are all personal reasons and have nothing at all to do with helping the animals.

Its not whether I agree or disagree. It is a matter of fact. You can not say that you breeding to provide cool morphs to the masses is any more noble than someone who does it to pay the bills.

When you come on here and say you are involved in a breeding program for some endangered reptile species and will be releasing the offspring into the wild, that is when you can say you are breeding for the right reason. Anything short of that is JUST a reason. Not right or wrong.

Actually, if you read any of my posts, I have not said anyone's reasons are right or wrong, I have stated there is no black and white, right or wrong in this.

Like I said, it may not matter to you, or the grande scheme of things, but it does matter to me what my goals are. You are correct in stating that as long as the animals are well cared for, that is what matters most.

As I stated, I would jump at the chance to be involved in a breeding program to save a species, however unlikely it may be for that to happen.

If you breed to pay the bills and are able to do so, creating healthy well-bred animals, kudo's to you!! (not being in any way sarcastic there) Like I stated, I have not made any profit, and that is not my goal. My profit is made in selling "snakefood" and creating cool, one of a kind hides climbs and viv deco's. Maybe one day my breeding projects will create profit, and if so, then kudo's to me!!

You can sit there and call me selfish all day, all my animals are healthy and well cared for, if they need a vet, they get one. If euthanization is neccesary, it is done humanely, they are properly fed and thier living conditions are correct.

I have never once said that my reasons are "more noble" than any others, I simply stated that I took exception to someone stating that breeders ONLY breed to "make a name and profit" When I stated MY REASONS for breeding, it was simply to give an example of how incorrect that statement was, not to put myself above other breeders who do it for name or profit. In fact I have great respect for the breeders who have profitted off of me buying thier snakes, they have been a wealth of information and help to me in my endeavor to bring some of the morphs not available here.

The humanitarian part of me exists as well, I have 3 rescue snakes that, quite simply put, I have absolutely no need of thier genetics for any of my projects, but they needed somewhere safe to live out thier lives, and I had room, and a freezer full of food.


I was in no way trying to attack anyone elses reasons for breeding, I was simply defending my reasons for doing so.:rolleyes:

[Gregg M]

I was in no way trying to attack anyone elses reasons for breeding, I was simply defending my reasons for doing so.:rolleyes:

The beauty of of it all is you do not have to defend your reason not matter what it is because everyones reason, including mine, is equally selfish. If your reason for breeding makes you happy and your animals are cared for, thats all that matters.

When people hear the word selfish, they automatically see it as a negative personality trait. The fact is, by nature, we are all selfish and it is not always a bad thing. It is a deep rooted survival mechanism. We are all selfish in certain aspects.

I was not taking a shot at you SnakeFood. If I were to do that, I would be taking a shot at myself or any other breeder.

[jaleely]

That's a good point, Gregg! Like i said, 99.9% of breeders are out there to make a profit, or make a name for themselves...and they..WE as humans, are selfish. But, that doesn't mean it's negative.
*shrug* I fully admit I have a couple of snakes I'd like to breed some day (green hoggies anyone? :). I actually bought two young dumeri's boas specifically for that reason...though I like to think I'm righteous, because i wanted to breed them to keep captive dumerils available and keep the imported population down...it's still a selfish reason, really. I want to do it because i want to.
My only thing, is that despite how many breeders and snakes are out there being successful, or not creating deformities, i still think that line breeding and inbreeding double the chances for bad traits, or deformities, just as much as it raises the chance of getting "desired" qualities.

I just prefer the long method of trying to get desired characteristics, and have the snakes not related.
True, it may happen in the wild...may...but not near the frequency that it happens in captive breeding programs.

Either way...i feel like this poor snake shouldn't have happened, and since it did, i'm glad Kim has it so she can determine if it can have an acceptable quality of life!

[infernalis]

to make a name for yourself.

Do right by your animals and the reputation will follow all on it's own.:cool:

[jaleely]

That's the truth right there, really!

[infernalis]

Personally I don't think breeders who brag about accomplishments are anything special, snakes and lizards have been locking up all on their own for millenia...

Any choad can dump two animals of opposite gender into a box and get babies, it's nature, they will breed.

Now, do it and do it good, stay humble about it, and that's a respectable breeder.

[jaleely]

AH...but that's where people differ on what is "good". Husbandry? Genetics? That's where the big discussion is.

[infernalis]

AH...but that's where people differ on what is "good". Husbandry? Genetics? That's where the big discussion is.

Both..

Taking good care of parents and offspring, knowing your genetics, and remaining concerned about the welfare of the animals all are good traits for any breeder.

However, I have been active on these kinds of forums for a lot of years, I have seen countless people do some really stupid things and then brag about how cool they are.

One time this guy caught a few gravid female garter snakes from the wild, he was keeping them in 5 gallon buckets and then bragged about how he was a snake breeder, started posting on the Thamnophis breeder board and couldn't understand why he got flamed for what he was doing.

[Web Wheeler]

Bearded Dragons have been inbred for decades, and I believe the founding stock gene pool for all the BD's outside of Australia is quite small as Australia has prohibited their export since the 1960's.

Parental nutrition and incubation / gestation temperatures play a much greater role in causing offspring deformities than inbreeding ever could, and I believe this to be the case with the original post -- not inbreeding.

Just my $0.02.

http://aqua-terra-vita.net/galleriesonline/imageGallery/ssphoto-2163.jpg

[infernalis]

The San Francisco garter snakes in Europe ALL trace back to one pair shipped to Holland as a zoo exchange in the 1960's..

They have been classified as an endangered species since, so any further export has been prohibited.

Breeders in Europe have no choice, if they want to perpetuate the species.

[Gregg M]

Bearded Dragons have been inbred for decades, and I believe the founding stock gene pool for all the BD's outside of Australia is quite small as Australia has prohibited their export since the 1960's.

Parental nutrition and incubation / gestation temperatures play a much greater role in causing offspring deformities than inbreeding ever could, and I believe this to be the case with the original post -- not inbreeding.

Just my $0.02.


Great Post. Exactly my thoughts!

The San Francisco garter snakes in Europe ALL trace back to one pair shipped to Holland as a zoo exchange in the 1960's..

They have been classified as an endangered species since, so any further export has been prohibited.

Breeders in Europe have no choice, if they want to perpetuate the species.

Another fine point and the stock is still strong. So I hear.

[KORBIN5895]

Both..

Taking good care of parents and offspring, knowing your genetics, and remaining concerned about the welfare of the animals all are good traits for any breeder.

However, I have been active on these kinds of forums for a lot of years, I have seen countless people do some really stupid things and then brag about how cool they are.

One time this guy caught a few gravid female garter snakes from the wild, he was keeping them in 5 gallon buckets and then bragged about how he was a snake breeder, started posting on the Thamnophis breeder board and couldn't understand why he got flamed for what he was doing.

That's because stupid people are too stupid to se how stupid they truly are.... idiots like that give the rest of us idiots a bad name!

[infernalis]

Another fine point and the stock is still strong. So I hear.

Gregg, I know Fons, Gijs, Udo and Sjoerd (internet forums only) , they are the the backbone of the European Garter Snake association.

Deformities in their litters do occur, but not as often as one would think, so yes you heard right, even with umpteen generations of inbreeding, there is still a thriving population of Thamnophis Tetrataenia in Europe.

[Will0W783]

In the case of saving an endangered species, if you have to inbreed to keep them going, you have to. But in 99% of cases, I don't think it's warranted. I know that I am in the minority, but I firmly feel that if you can avoid it, you should. You might get 75% outwardly healthy snakes, but what about that 25%? You're condemning them to a life of deformities and handicaps, or culling them right away. I don't think that's fair.
It is true that any animal, even people, can often get away with it- heck, look at the English royal families. They are all largely inbred, to a very great degree....most of them are ok. But they tend to have weak immune systems, mental health problems are frequent, etc. Why should snakes be any different?

Just because you CAN breed families into each other, and get mostly healthy babies, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If you can obtain unrelated stock, yes it will be more expensive, yes it will take longer to prove traits, but you owe it to the animals. I think it keeps them healthier for longer.

We do not know for sure if Snags' problems came from careless breeding, or improper egg care or a fluke. I think that if it was improper egg care, more of the clutch would have had problems, although it was a high mortality rate, so perhaps. Regardless, I though her predicament would be a good starting point for an honest debate on the habits of the snake breeding world.

[StudentoReptile]

I think I would consider this horse dead and beaten.

[Jlassiter]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the case of saving an endangered species, if you have to inbreed to keep them going, you have to. But in 99% of cases, I don't think it's warranted. I know that I am in the minority, but I firmly feel that if you can avoid it, you should. You might get 75% outwardly healthy snakes, but what about that 25%? You're condemning them to a life of deformities and handicaps, or culling them right away. I don't think that's fair.

Your view is opinionistic and lacks no facts. Deformities & Handicaps happen with non line bred / in bred animals.....including humans (the animal you decided to compare to snakes in this instance).


It is true that any animal, even people, can often get away with it- heck, look at the English royal families. They are all largely inbred, to a very great degree....most of them are ok. But they tend to have weak immune systems, mental health problems are frequent, etc. Why should snakes be any different?

Because Snakes are cold-blooded reptiles that are much simpler than us complex humans.
And you forgot to mention awful teeth.....LMAO!

Just because you CAN breed families into each other, and get mostly healthy babies, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If you can obtain unrelated stock, yes it will be more expensive, yes it will take longer to prove traits, but you owe it to the animals. I think it keeps them healthier for longer.

Again...only speculation and opinion.
I've personally line bred for 20 years and haven't seen any ill affects that I haven't seen with non line bred animals. Most populations of snakes are isolated. They line breed in the wild. When a new look (morph) pops out of a wild clutch it is either absorbed or it goes on to become the norm. These trials happen all the time in the wild....It's called evolution. If the new morph proves to be advantageous it INBREEDS until the entire population expresses the advantageous phenotype. We are only seeing a TINY glimpse in time as to what our current snakes looked like and will look like in the future.........DEEP huh?.......lol

[Robyn@SYR]

What an interesting and wide ranging thread.

[Gregg M]

In the case of saving an endangered species, if you have to inbreed to keep them going, you have to. But in 99% of cases, I don't think it's warranted..

Where is the 99% figure coming from? In breeding is not only warrented but it is also very much needed in order to prove traits out and to keep them going. In many cases, it is needed in order to just keep a species going our captive collections. Especially if they are animals we can not get from their Country of origin anymore.

I know that I am in the minority, but I firmly feel that if you can avoid it, you should. You might get 75% outwardly healthy snakes, but what about that 25%? You're condemning them to a life of deformities and handicaps, or culling them right away. I don't think that's fair..

Well to be honest, if these were wild born snakes, far less than 75% would make it past a few weeks old. In the case of my breeding results, out of over 100 reptiles hatched last season, only 2 had a deformity. The funny thing is, the animals that were deformed were from a clutch where the parents were completely unrelated. The season before that and the one before that, I had no deformed hatchings. Most of my stock is related because I am trying to prove out a couple of morphs.

It is true that any animal, even people, can often get away with it- heck, look at the English royal families. They are all largely inbred, to a very great degree....most of them are ok. But they tend to have weak immune systems, mental health problems are frequent, etc. Why should snakes be any different?.

You can not compare human biology to reptilian biology. Humans are far more complex. But if you are smart and believe in evolution, you would know that humans, at some point in our history, had to have inbred. In fact a study shows that people who have blue eyes share the exact same gene that causes eyes to be blue. A gene we got from one common ancestor.

Just because you CAN breed families into each other, and get mostly healthy babies, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If you can obtain unrelated stock, yes it will be more expensive, yes it will take longer to prove traits, but you owe it to the animals. I think it keeps them healthier for longer..

On the same note I can say "just because you CAN keep reptiles in a cage in your home, doesen't mean you SHOULD." The truth of the matter is you do not need to wait years and spend more money to prove out a trait because inbreeding reptiles has not proven to be an issue or cause any harm to the animals. I understand you have your opinion, but what facts are your opinions based on exactly?

We do not know for sure if Snags' problems came from careless breeding, or improper egg care or a fluke. I think that if it was improper egg care, more of the clutch would have had problems, although it was a high mortality rate, so perhaps. Regardless, I though her predicament would be a good starting point for an honest debate on the habits of the snake breeding world.

Wouldnt you think that careless breeding/inbreeding would have produced a lot more of these deformed snakes? If it were indeed a mutant gene that can be passed down to offspring, why would there be less animals affected than if it were incubation related, related to how the mother was cared for or just a fluke?

I have very much enjoyed the thread you started. Firstly, it shows how good hearted you are and how dedicated to reptiles you are. Secondly, it shows that even when people do not agree on a subject we can be civil and get our points across. Third, it shows just how many knowledgable people hang on this site. Even though I do not agree with some of the things being said, the points are smart and well thought out.

[CDN_Blood]

I dunno who said inbreeding was fine, but I know who disagrees whole-heartedly with it...<points thumbs at self and says> This guy :)

[Jlassiter]

I dunno who said inbreeding was fine, but I know who disagrees whole-heartedly with it...<points thumbs at self and says> This guy :)


Me and Mother Nature says it's fine.....
Why you disagree?
Please Explain...

[jaleely]

From Willow:
"In the case of saving an endangered species, if you have to inbreed to keep them going, you have to. But in 99% of cases, I don't think it's warranted."

^^^ I think rather than saying a percentage, she's saying in her opinion (and i agree) 99% of the reasons for inbreeding is not warranted...based upon opinion.

From Willow: "I know that I am in the minority, but I firmly feel that if you can avoid it, you should. You might get 75% outwardly healthy snakes, but what about that 25%? You're condemning them to a life of deformities and handicaps, or culling them right away. I don't think that's fair."

^^^
I agree here too. That's what bothers me the most. The need to cull, or if you don't you have a deformed or sad animal.

From Willow "Just because you CAN breed families into each other, and get mostly healthy babies, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If you can obtain unrelated stock, yes it will be more expensive, yes it will take longer to prove traits, but you owe it to the animals. I think it keeps them healthier for longer."

^^^

This is what i don't get, actually. It just SEEMs like many people breed to get an interesting looking snake, rather than breed because they like temperament, health, etc. I just don't understand why the color or pattern is more important than the health of the animal. And, it is...let's face it. They are being chosen and bred because people want a certain pattern or color. It just doesn't make any logical sense to me, and i can't wrap my head around why you would choose something like looks over perfect health (as is the case with some ball python morphs).

I think proper husbandry, and genetic health should be more important : (

ANyway Shout out to Gregg for being encouraging and posting well thought out responses that encourage discussion. This is how a thread is supposed to go! : )

[Jlassiter]

The missing point here is this....
Deformities and handicaps occur in captivity from non inbred snakes just as often as with inbred snakes.....

These deformities are usually the fault of the breeder......imperfect husbandry of eggs is the main culprit.

Reptiles line breed in the wild.......think about the morphological evolution of a species.

[jaleely]

I think the point Kim and I are trying to make (if I may speak for you, Kim :)
Is that an even slightly raised risk of deformity, which inbreeding will produce, that's just fact, is not worth the risk in our opinion. When you breed snakes to prove out a trait, or to strengthen a trait you like, you are also strengthening any weaknesses that prove to be genetic.
If there is already weaknesses from wild breedings, or from poor husbandry...why add more?

Just because it may have happened in the wild does not mean it should be perpetuated in a controlled environment where it can be prevented.

[Jlassiter]

It IS NOT just fact.......deformities from line breeding are VERY rare......
Quit thinking about just a few BP problems.....

There's thousands of other snake species out there line breeding with absolutely no problems...in captivity and in the wild....that is fact.

I am by no means trying to justify what I or others do. I am just sharing information that has been proven long before the BP craze came along and so many newbs hit the hobby.

I've been doing this for two decades and have seen more deformities than most......everyone is too quick to blame it on the snakes genetics when they should be blaming themselves for not supporting the snakes themselves or the eggs they produce correctly.....

[jaleely]

Sooo...what deformities have you seen, and how do you think they came about? Not being smart honestly asking!

[Snakefood]

Do you remember little "knotty", the snow corn hatchling who was born tied in a knot?? I had to euthanise him because necrosis set in where the knot was.

His Parents were completely unrelated, I mean COMPLETELY..... just saying, it happens whether the parents are related or not.

[Jlassiter]

Things ive seen......but not all have i produced....

Two headed, two faced, kinked spine, fused skin folds, stump tails, no eyes, organs external, no tongue, bug eyes, missing scales.......and more I'm sure....

Check out the two faced pyro from unrelated parents.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/twofacedSS.jpg

[Gregg M]

Me and Mother Nature says it's fine.....
Why you disagree?
Please Explain...

Dont let that fool bait you in. Take a look at some of his replies and posts in other threads. He has nothing constuctive to add to anything.

Kim and Melissa,
You are entitled to your opinion. I do respect what both of you are saying. However, you are looking at it from a keepers point of view and not from a breeders point of view. Some important points are being missed here. The fact that deformed hatchlings are in no more greater numbers in inbred animals than it is in unrelated animals. This is coming from the keyboard of 2 breeders with over 40 years combined experience.

There will be a need for culling no matter how unrelated the parents are. Most keepers put blinders up to the crappy parts of the hobby. As a breeder, you cant because things happen right in front of your eyes.

[Jlassiter]

Great post Gregg.....

[infernalis]

There will be a need for culling no matter how unrelated the parents are. Most keepers put blinders up to the crappy parts of the hobby. As a breeder, you cant because things happen right in front of your eyes.

Thank you Gregg....

In nature these things still happen, big difference is that nature has a fantastic way of cleaning up the evidence.

When an animal is born severely messed up in the wild, they generally are consumed by something else rather quickly after birth.

Getting back to Kim's original post, it was quite irresponsible for that vendor to have brought that snake to a show and displayed it.

I'm with Mykee on his first reply, That snake should have been put down at birth, discreetly and never discussed. By bringing it to a show and placing a price tag on was just irresponsible and tasteless, regardless of what caused the deformity.

[KORBIN5895]

Dont let that fool bait you in. Take a look at some of his replies and posts in other threads. He has nothing constuctive to add to anything.
.

So if a fool calls someone else a fool does anybody listen to the fool?

[Gregg M]

So if a fool calls someone else a fool does anybody listen to the fool?

So are you calling me a fool? LOL

Remember, you are sticking up for someone who told you not to use soils or earths for your Sav. LOL

Seriously, I was just pointing out that there was nothing constructive about the post. To "whole heartedly" disagree with something while "poiting two thumbs" at ones self and saying "this guy" without even a single reason why is just a waste of posting space.

[lady_bug87]

So are you calling me a fool? LOL

Remember, you are sticking up for someone who told you not to use soils or earths for your Sav. LOL

Seriously, I was just pointing out that there was nothing constructive about the post. To "whole heartedly" disagree with something while "poiting two thumbs" at ones self and saying "this guy" without even a single reason why is just a waste of posting space.

Lucky for us its the internet and posting space is unlimited!

[Will0W783]

To Gregg M:
There will be a need for culling no matter how unrelated the parents are. Most keepers put blinders up to the crappy parts of the hobby. As a breeder, you cant because things happen right in front of your eyes.

Thank you for your well-thought out posts and open discussion. This is what I wanted this thread to do! It is true that I am looking at things from a keeper's point of view, but I think that breeders can stand a lot to gain by sometimes doing just that.

There will be a need for culling no matter how unrelated the parents are. Most keepers put blinders up to the crappy parts of the hobby. As a breeder, you cant because things happen right in front of your eyes.

This was a great post- it's true. I do want to breed some of my vipers eventually, and I know that there can be problems and deformities and deaths even if I control my stock and only breed completely unrelated parents. Whenever you deal with live animals, you have to accept that death and suffering will occasionally occur. I just want to minimize the risks of them.


Melissa pretty much nailed my point on the head- deformities, sickness, etc can happen with unrelated parents or inbred/line-bred parents. Heck it can happen out of the blue, to one baby or to all. You never know. Evolution likes to roll the dice and randomly throw in mutations that might be beneficial or damaging. In the wild, any mutations that are beneficial end up being passed on, because the animal survives to reproduce, and those mutations slowly change the genetics of the species. Mutations that weaken the animal, or break up its camouflage or hinder it are generally stopped right at one generation, because the animal won't be able to hunt, or it will be killed by a bigger predator. In captivity, we've removed the pressures of natural selection. Any mutations can be passed on by us purposely breeding them into the animals. That's not to say that ALL line-breeding/trait breeding is bad....like everything else in life, there is NO black and white. Everything is shades of grey. I feel that it is our responsibility, as keepers and breeders of the animals, to keep THEIR health and comfort ahead of our wallets and wants. Just my $0.02. I do really like some of the morphs of snakes....I have a supertiger retic and a purple albino retic that I think are amazingly gorgeous. I also have an albino boa, and I really like the clown and piebald ball pythons. I just have a problem with mutations that cause detriment to the animal (spinner syndrome, kinks, etc) being perpetuated despite a high % of ill/deformed animals. It's an ugly side of the hobby- perhaps one day the detriments can be bred out of those traits, but in the meantime, it's sad to me to see the effects.

To Wayne:
Getting back to Kim's original post, it was quite irresponsible for that vendor to have brought that snake to a show and displayed it.

I'm with Mykee on his first reply, That snake should have been put down at birth, discreetly and never discussed. By bringing it to a show and placing a price tag on was just irresponsible and tasteless, regardless of what caused the deformity.

Absolutely!! The bigger issue here is that the snake was paraded like a freak show and a sale was attempted. This guy wanted to get out of snakes, and didn't care anymore. It's sad and irresponsible for the animal(s) that are still in his care.

His lack of compassion is the reason Snags now might suffer. She is active and curious, and was able to poop normally following her assist-feeding Sunday. So there is hope for her. But truly, the humane thing to do would have been for her to be euthanized right out of the egg so she didn't have to struggle to survive.

It also really made the seller look bad with her on his table. I made sure not to take her until about 20 minutes before the end of the show, when almost all the buyers were gone. That way, although I knew I'd do whatever it took to get her so I could try to help her, she was on the table and everyone at the show saw her and the fact that he was trying to sell her for half what he was asking for healthy albinos.

[KORBIN5895]

So are you calling me a fool? LOL

Remember, you are sticking up for someone who told you not to use soils or earths for your Sav. LOL

Seriously, I was just pointing out that there was nothing constructive about the post. To "whole heartedly" disagree with something while "poiting two thumbs" at ones self and saying "this guy" without even a single reason why is just a waste of posting space.

Ummm no. If I was calling you a fool I would say " Greg you're a fool." What I posted is a saying.

Secondly I don't have a sav and don't remember asking for advice on substrate for savs. ... definitely could've happened though. ( I do faintly remember that conversation which I did post in though).

As for you dismissing cdn_bloods posts because he has a different opinion than you, well I get that. I see lots of people on here dismiss ideas because they don't line up with their own ideas. Just par for the course.

Now I have a question for the breeders: I have been told Kahl albinos are know to have a genetic defect that cause them to be born with only one eye and such. Do you feel that is because of inbreeding, coincidence or just plain hooey?

[CDN_Blood]

Me and Mother Nature says it's fine.....
Why you disagree?
Please Explain...

Ooop, sorry...I don't subscribe to every thread I post in, so just noticing this now.

To me it's a no-brainer, but here's my logic since you're curious enough to ask:
I'm an ethical kinda guy and as such, I wouldn't copulate with my siblings, my parents or anyone else from my own gene pool in order to preserve the integrity of those genes. I'd never ask something of my herps that I wouldn't ask of myself, so if it's good enough for me, it's good enough for them :)

In my opinion there are already entirely too many people out there throwing this and that into reptile gene pools that are already suffering, so I'd never add to that problem by degrading genes even farther by letting any of my snakes inbreed simply for my own benefit.

As for someone tying to compare nature to captivity, that's like comparing an apple to the moon, so I'm not even going to touch that, lol.

[Aaron_S]

I just want to say how many people talk about "unrelated" parents but really know ALL the history of their animal? How many generations can you trace it back? Someone can say I got it from this person and I got the other from this other person but where did they get it from? Maybe the bought it from the SAME person. Who knows! Even if they didn't maybe the person beyond that bought the pair from the same person.

All I'm saying is we don't really know how unrelated a lot of animals are.

Aside from that, I think others have done a good job of stating that even though some here think inbreeding is a leading cause of deformities that there is mountains of proof that says otherwise or at least there really isn't a conclusive link to inbreeding and deformities.

Otherwise, cool thread.

[Will0W783]

So true Aaron....unless you know the original imported animals, and can trace breedings all the way down (very slim chance) you can't know the complete genetics of your animals.

But then, every animal in a given species is somewhat related if you want to get that technical...I mean, all humans descended from common ancestors, so we're all kind of related. :-P

Direct inbreeding/line breeding is definitely a gray area though.

[Aaron_S]

So true Aaron....unless you know the original imported animals, and can trace breedings all the way down (very slim chance) you can't know the complete genetics of your animals.

But then, every animal in a given species is somewhat related if you want to get that technical...I mean, all humans descended from common ancestors, so we're all kind of related. :-P

Direct inbreeding/line breeding is definitely a gray area though.

I agree that it's a gray area that is dependent upon each persons own morals, ethics and hobby goals. So essentially "to each their own".

Sooo if we're related that makes you my "sister" so do I get put into the will to obtain your collection of snakes? I kind of want Shelby.

[infernalis]

I just want to say how many people talk about "unrelated" parents but really know ALL the history of their animal? How many generations can you trace it back? Someone can say I got it from this person and I got the other from this other person but where did they get it from? Maybe the bought it from the SAME person. Who knows! Even if they didn't maybe the person beyond that bought the pair from the same person.

All I'm saying is we don't really know how unrelated a lot of animals are..

I just had to get in on this one... Since the Garter Snake affectionado circle is so small.

There is one breeder who has been at it the longest, produces the most offspring each year and all from just a handful of parents.

So now comes the new kid in town, so that person buys a pair and then two years later sells babies, produced from the sibling pair originally purchased, NKIT then offers babies for sale and folks order pairs, and on nd on and on down the line.

So along comes someone who does not want to inbreed, they buy a female from one of NKIT offered babies, then contacts the "top dog" and buys a "unrelated" mate for the other snake.

All the while completely oblivious to the concept that the first snake was actually an F5 descendant from "top dog" and is now subsequently inbreeding anyway.

Unless you caught a wild albino in your yard you have to be able to trace your animals roots back several people to ensure you are not crossing related snakes, and even then, one would have to be certain without any shadow of doubt that the snakes do not trace back to the same bloodlines.

[Snakefood]

you know, this is a very interesting line of thought. You're totally correct to say that we don't know for sure whether out animals are related in some way or not as even animals with pedigrees rarely go back more than 4-5 generations.

When I said my 2 snakes who I bred were totally unrelated, I said that because not only did I get the snakes form different sources, I got them from sources VERY far apart as the male was bought out of the southern states (by someone else and given to me later), and the female bought here in Canada. I guess they could still be related, but I doubt it would be a close relation.

[Aaron_S]

you know, this is a very interesting line of thought. You're totally correct to say that we don't know for sure whether out animals are related in some way or not as even animals with pedigrees rarely go back more than 4-5 generations.

When I said my 2 snakes who I bred were totally unrelated, I said that because not only did I get the snakes form different sources, I got them from sources VERY far apart as the male was bought out of the southern states (by someone else and given to me later), and the female bought here in Canada. I guess they could still be related, but I doubt it would be a close relation.

That's cool and all.

I'm just speaking in generalities. Lots of species of snakes and their mutations are still very small gene pool soto speak.

In your particular situation two things come to mind. We don't know for sure the relation since even though you bought them from far apart doesn't mean those people didn't have their animals shipped from the same person.

Secondly, close relation or not, if they are related then they are related and the issue of inbreeding still applies.

I'm strictly using your situation as an example and not attacking you.

[Snakefood]

No I get it!! I don't feel attacked at all. In my case I had a great hatch rate with only the one problem of the snow who hatched tied in a knot!! Everyone else is happy healthy and voracious eaters, I am holding 2 back and the rest are being sold.

I personally have no problem with inbreeding lines to an extent, I wouldn't do it over and over without trying to add fresh blood somewhere in there though.

In fact I completely intend to line-breed some of my snakes in a couple planned, future projects.

[Jlassiter]

I just had to get in on this one... Since the Garter Snake affectionado circle is so small.

There is one breeder who has been at it the longest, produces the most offspring each year and all from just a handful of parents.

So now comes the new kid in town, so that person buys a pair and then two years later sells babies, produced from the sibling pair originally purchased, NKIT then offers babies for sale and folks order pairs, and on nd on and on down the line.

So along comes someone who does not want to inbreed, they buy a female from one of NKIT offered babies, then contacts the "top dog" and buys a "unrelated" mate for the other snake.

All the while completely oblivious to the concept that the first snake was actually an F5 descendant from "top dog" and is now subsequently inbreeding anyway.

Unless you caught a wild albino in your yard you have to be able to trace your animals roots back several people to ensure you are not crossing related snakes, and even then, one would have to be certain without any shadow of doubt that the snakes do not trace back to the same bloodlines.


And if you CAN trace the provenance of your animals to a certain locality (IE: Alterna collectors / breeders) then breed them to each other there is a high probability you are inbreeding your snakes.......Just like they do in wild populations.

Deformities just happen......inbreeding or not.......but many cases can be directly related to husbandry of the animals up to laying eggs then the husbandry of the eggs.

And for the record....I can trace nearly all of my Lampropeltis back to it's original w/c ancestors.....I'm just anal like that, especially with my mexicana.
But I don't worry about inbreeding them if they are from the same locale or same ancestoral w/c snake........All for the reasons mentioned above.....They do it in the wild.....

[jaleely]

I just had to get in on this one... Since the Garter Snake affectionado circle is so small.

There is one breeder who has been at it the longest, produces the most offspring each year and all from just a handful of parents.

So now comes the new kid in town, so that person buys a pair and then two years later sells babies, produced from the sibling pair originally purchased, NKIT then offers babies for sale and folks order pairs, and on nd on and on down the line.

So along comes someone who does not want to inbreed, they buy a female from one of NKIT offered babies, then contacts the "top dog" and buys a "unrelated" mate for the other snake.

All the while completely oblivious to the concept that the first snake was actually an F5 descendant from "top dog" and is now subsequently inbreeding anyway.

Unless you caught a wild albino in your yard you have to be able to trace your animals roots back several people to ensure you are not crossing related snakes, and even then, one would have to be certain without any shadow of doubt that the snakes do not trace back to the same bloodlines.

This is exactly what i worried about (and i do think happened, possibly) when i got my two garter snakes. I really made a big deal about trying to get two unrelated. *shrug* live and learn.

On a side note, gregg made some good points. I an not a breeder, but a keeper. I am actually afraid to breed some day and be faced with a deformity. i adore snakes, and would freak out! I would be able to euthanize if i knew the animal was suffering...but it would be *such* a hard thing. I just want to get rid of any extra possibility of an unhealthy clutch even happening.

[Gregg M]

Ummm no. If I was calling you a fool I would say " Greg you're a fool." What I posted is a saying.

I know, I was making a joke of it.

Secondly I don't have a sav and don't remember asking for advice on substrate for savs. ... definitely could've happened though. ( I do faintly remember that conversation which I did post in though).

So you know what I am talking about then.

As for you dismissing cdn_bloods posts because he has a different opinion than you, well I get that. I see lots of people on here dismiss ideas because they don't line up with their own ideas. Just par for the course.

I am not dismissing anyone elses view that I disagree with. What I do dismiss are statements that have no constructiveness or fact based info attached. Plus, I really can not stand people who point thumbs at themselves and say "this guy". LOL

Now I have a question for the breeders: I have been told Kahl albinos are know to have a genetic defect that cause them to be born with only one eye and such. Do you feel that is because of inbreeding, coincidence or just plain hooey?

From what I hear, there is nothing genetic about the eye issue. It could be one of those things like the spider balls head wobble or the Jad carpet twist, or the Enigma leopard gecko circling. It might just be attached to the morph and can not be bred out and can not be passed to normal siblings. A defect that comes with the paint job.


On a side note, gregg made some good points. I an not a breeder, but a keeper. I am actually afraid to breed some day and be faced with a deformity. i adore snakes, and would freak out! I would be able to euthanize if i knew the animal was suffering...but it would be *such* a hard thing. I just want to get rid of any extra possibility of an unhealthy clutch even happening.

The thing is, your chances of producing a deformed hatchling do not increase with inbreeding. You are not minimizing any chances of producing a deformed neonate by searching far and wide for unrelated breeders. Thats the point I have been trying to make. That has been my experience in 20 plus years of breeding morphs and related animals.

[Will0W783]

Originally posted by Aaron_S: Sooo if we're related that makes you my "sister" so do I get put into the will to obtain your collection of snakes? I kind of want Shelby.

Sure, "bro", you can have Shelby, but I'm warning you - He doesn't like men...he's all about the laadies. :crazy:

Just remember, if you lose, you're out of the family! :p

(Sorry, I watch too much Simpsons, lol)

[Aaron_S]

Sure, "bro", you can have Shelby, but I'm warning you - He doesn't like men...he's all about the laadies. :crazy:

Just remember, if you lose, you're out of the family! :p

(Sorry, I watch too much Simpsons, lol)

Well you've got to win and as I promise you'll have your turtle back, alive and well.


Kim I want them ALL. Except maybe giants.

[Will0W783]

Lol. You mean you don't want to give Trogdor the Burminator a big ol' hug? He wants to hug you! :-P

[Aaron_S]

Not on a daily basis, no.

[Will0W783]

LOL! You'd only get one big ol' hug.

If you're ever in the USA, drop by and you'll see the big ones aren't so bad. They're easier to work with than Shelby by a long shot. Shelby seems to be calming back down again though...I think he has realized that his daily temper tantrums don't faze me and only earn him a bloody rubbed nose from hitting the door. He's been in shed, and curled up miserably in the back corner of his cage all week. Poor little killer looks all despondent, lol.

[lady_bug87]

How is Snaggle tooth doing?

[Aaron_S]

LOL! You'd only get one big ol' hug.

If you're ever in the USA, drop by and you'll see the big ones aren't so bad. They're easier to work with than Shelby by a long shot. Shelby seems to be calming back down again though...I think he has realized that his daily temper tantrums don't faze me and only earn him a bloody rubbed nose from hitting the door. He's been in shed, and curled up miserably in the back corner of his cage all week. Poor little killer looks all despondent, lol.

I'm sure if you could see his thought bubbles they'd be along the lines of "If only she didn't have an invisible wall protecting her I'd SO make her my bitch."

Or he's pondering his next attempt at taking over the world, as he does every night.

I know the big ones. I've worked with them on many occasions I just wish not to anymore. I prefer the animals that only take one person to look after :P

[Will0W783]

Shelby is always pondering and plotting his next attempt on my life, or at least his next attempt to make me s*** my pants.

He's a sneaky devil...I can almost see the wheels turning in that scaly head of his.

"So what do you want to do tonight, Shelby"?
"Same thing we do every night, Human...try to take over the world!"

[Aaron_S]

Shelby is always pondering and plotting his next attempt on my life, or at least his next attempt to make me s*** my pants.

He's a sneaky devil...I can almost see the wheels turning in that scaly head of his.

"So what do you want to do tonight, Shelby"?
"Same thing we do every night, Human...try to take over the world!"

'Their Shelby and the Human, Human, Human."

[Will0W783]

Originally posted by Aaron_S:
'Their Shelby and the Human, Human, Human."

Oh man, LMFAO!!! You just made me shoot Mtn Dew out of my nose!

[Aaron_S]

Oh man, LMFAO!!! You just made me shoot Mtn Dew out of my nose!

That's AH-MAZING.

I am awesome.

[Will0W783]

Oh dang, how do I embed a video? It didn't work...

Spose - I'm Awesome - YouTube (http://youtu.be/OYws8biwOYc?hd=1)

OYws8biwOYc

[bushsnake]

Gregg, I know Fons, Gijs, Udo and Sjoerd (internet forums only) , they are the the backbone of the European Garter Snake association.

Deformities in their litters do occur, but not as often as one would think, so yes you heard right, even with umpteen generations of inbreeding, there is still a thriving population of Thamnophis Tetrataenia in Europe.
the people i know that breed San Francisco garters would give their left nut for some fresh blood

[infernalis]

the people i know that breed San Francisco garters would give their left nut for some fresh blood

Yes they would...., or the right one if need be.

[Aaron_S]

Oh dang, how do I embed a video? It didn't work...

Spose - I'm Awesome - YouTube (http://youtu.be/OYws8biwOYc?hd=1)

OYws8biwOYc

That is full of awesome quotes and scenes...

[jaleely]

that was awesome Kim *lol*

And i love shelby!

[shaunyboy]

That's disgusting. Should have been thrown in the freezer right out of the egg.

^^^^^
i agree all deformed snakes should be euthinised straight out the egg

one hard fast blow with a lump hammer to the head,that way the pain has no time to register,due to full cranial destruction

i'm not a fan of folk killing things by freezing mate (painfull way to go,imo)

kimberley
as far as i know carpets regularily get bred up to F4,F5, without any deformateys or health issues

i'm thinking,some species may tollerate line breeding more than others

not being cheeky pal

cheers shaun

[jaleely]

^^^^^

i'm thinking,some species may tollerate line breeding more than others


I think shaunyboy hit the nail on the head here! That would explain it, that and the starting parents having excellent genes to begin with.

[Aaron_S]

I'm honestly asking and not being sarcastic so bear with me here.

Do you know of any evidence where it supports that some can be "line breed" with less problems than others?

I'm sure even the insular and island populations have their issues but they get eaten fairly quickly. Strongest survive normally. I suppose the problem really is just us humans who sometimes do it out of the goodness of our hearts or money but keep them alive to further pass on along "weak" genes.

[Gregg M]

I'm honestly asking and not being sarcastic so bear with me here.

Do you know of any evidence where it supports that some can be "line breed" with less problems than others?


That is a great question. To answer it bluntly, there is not a single shred of evidence to support that theory. Personally, I dont think that some reptiles can deal with it better than others.

[Aaron_S]

That is a great question. To answer it bluntly, there is not a single shred of evidence to support that theory. Personally, I dont think that some reptiles can deal with it better than others.

I agree with you but I'm interested in hearing any other theories too. :)

[Will0W783]

When I went down to turn on the lights and do my morning rounds, Snags had thrown up the food I gave her yesterday, and was dead. I tried my hardest not to get attached to her, but I'm devastated. She looked bad yesterday when I fed her, so I had a bad feeling. At least she doesn't have to suffer anymore. She was a sweetie, and a beautiful girl despite her unique situation, and I'll miss her terribly.

[shaunyboy]

I'm honestly asking and not being sarcastic so bear with me here.

Do you know of any evidence where it supports that some can be "line breed" with less problems than others?

I'm sure even the insular and island populations have their issues but they get eaten fairly quickly. Strongest survive normally. I suppose the problem really is just us humans who sometimes do it out of the goodness of our hearts or money but keep them alive to further pass on along "weak" genes.

^^^^^
sorry mate i should have said,from what i know and have read.....

on morelia forums i have read of F2,F3,F4,F5, with no apparent health issues

on other forums i've read of boa's,being born with one or no eyes,when certain lines are crossed with each other

to be honest i was more trying to reasure CARPET breeders,that to the best of my knowledge,they should NOT encounter any issues with line breeding

re insular and island populations
i agree entirely with your statment mate

cheers shaun

[CK SandBoas]

Kim, I am so sorry to hear about snags:( at least you gave her a home to live out her final days at, and provided what you could for her. At least she is at peace now, though that is a small comfort for you.

Rest in peace Snags.....

[shaunyboy]

When I went down to turn on the lights and do my morning rounds, Snags had thrown up the food I gave her yesterday, and was dead. I tried my hardest not to get attached to her, but I'm devastated. She looked bad yesterday when I fed her, so I had a bad feeling. At least she doesn't have to suffer anymore. She was a sweetie, and a beautiful girl despite her unique situation, and I'll miss her terribly.

i'm sorry for your loss kimberly

all the best shaun

[Will0W783]

Thanks guys. I hope I didn't hurt her with the force-feeding. I tried to be as gentle and delicate as possible. She just looked bad yesterday morning; I thought food would help, but I guess it was too late.

[Gregg M]

Thanks guys. I hope I didn't hurt her with the force-feeding. I tried to be as gentle and delicate as possible. She just looked bad yesterday morning; I thought food would help, but I guess it was too late.

That poor animal didnt have a chance from the start. I can not see you doing anything to make the situation worse. That breeder should have culled it. You tried Kim, and thats what matters. You are a good person with a real love for these animals. Something this hobby can use a lot more of.

[Will0W783]

Thanks Gregg. I try; I really do love animals, and I cannot stand to see anything suffer. At least my other cobra, Shelby, is healthy and strong. He's growing like a weed and full of attitude. :)

[MoreliAddict]

Thanks Gregg. I try; I really do love animals, and I cannot stand to see anything suffer. At least my other cobra, Shelby, is healthy and strong. He's growing like a weed and full of attitude. :)
Cool can we expect an update on him soon? :)

[Will0W783]

Sure, he has his own thread, lol. I'll have to get some more recent pictures on there.

[Jendee]

I think line breeding is great! But I do believe in outcrossing to keep the line strong :) line. Line. Outcries. Outcross back to line know what I mean and I wouldn't pin the eye thing/deformaties all ob line breeding

[ILuvMyHognose]

I read this whole thread. Various opinions.....one thing I wanna say is I am super sorry that this has happened to you and your snake. You truely are a strong person and I am glad there are people like you left on this earth. You tried helping the poor girl as much as you can!! I do things like this as well. I understand it is difficult for people to understand unless they are in the other persons shoes. So I give you kudos def!!! Good luck and I have to check out your males thread!!

[rmfsnakes32]

Thats sad that a proffesional breeder would allow an animal to suffer and try to make a profit I personally would have put it in the freezer when it hatched. But you are a wonderful person trying to save her!

[rmfsnakes32]

Thats sad that a proffesional breeder would allow an animal to suffer and try to make a profit I personally would have put it in the freezer when it hatched. But you are a wonderful person trying to save her!

[shaunyboy]

I personally would have put it in the freezer when it hatched.

imo,using a freezer to kill snakes is a painfull time consuming way to do it mate

imo,the quickest most humane way is one fast hard hit to the head with a lump hammer

full cranial destruction occurs before any pain can register

i'm not having a go,merely pointing out that freezing causes,uneccessary pain/suffering

cheers shaun