Wild caught for pet shops, a tragedy?

[limey]

This en-masse catching of wild hatchlings for the pet trade is kind of sad isn't it?

I just know from volunteering in various worldwide conservation efforts over the years that human numbers are skyrocketing while most others species' numbers are dwindling...

What's your opinion of "wild caught"?

[marvelfreak]

I would never buy wild caught.

[StudentoReptile]

[Looking around for the popcorn-eating emoticon, waiting for the debate to begin]
-----

It's easy to have that mentality, and I'm not necessarily knocking the philosophy behind it. After all, who isn't for conservation, right?

But realistically, its not a very cut-and-dry issue, when you consider really how commonly-kept herps are in the pet trade: Chinese water dragons, savannah monitors, African fat-tailed geckos, tokay geckos, blue-tongued skinks, uromastyx, Russian tortoises, and of course, baby ball pythons, just to mention a few.

Its nice that people make the decision to "never buy WC" but when you think about, that really limits your options for expanding your collection, especially if you're on a budget. How many people you know breed savannah monitors in captivity? tokay geckos? Russian tortoises? I know there are some, but CBB animals are often double the price you'd pay for a WC one. A lot of newbies are either unwilling to pony up the extra dough or more often than not, are completely unaware CBB is even an option. The latter, I'm mainly referring to the average Jill or Joe who walks into Petco and sees a savannah monitor or water dragon. They may not even have a clue of the submerged iceberg they're standing on that represents the captive reptile industry.

A lot of animals are still only available (mostly) through wildcuaght collection and importation because they are either very difficult to reproduce, or there is marketability in reproducing them in captivity. For example, for most dealers, it is cheaper to order a crate load of WC tokay geckos than go to the effort of breeding the things. I'm not saying its right; I'm merely pointing out the reality of the situation.

In short, if the tides are really going to turn, you're going to have to convince every single person out there remotely interested in keeping herps to only buy from captive bred stock. Personally, I feel this is unrealistic and futile goal.

[StudentoReptile]

What I DO have a problem with is the quote-unquote "trash" species that are overcollected and sold that most people are ill-equiped to keep. Last year, I saw an ad for someone selling crowned snakes by the lot. For those unfamiliar, crowned snakes are tiny little worm-like snakes here in North America that hardy get larger than a pencil. Their natural diet is centipedes. This guy was peddling these drab brown tiny snakes, claiming they were the cheapest snake you could ever get and that they make great pets. I mean, how is the average person gonna feed this snake? Who has a ready supply of centipedes?

This was on Fauna, BTW.

[limey]

Yeah. I think you have a point there. And no one person can change the world's opinion - it's too mammoth a task.

But I also think (and I'm sure many of you would agree with me) that from my observations, humans tend to be a very self-serving species. And if we don't make much needed changes, then in the long run (though perhaps not in our lifetime) the homosapiens species is doomed.

[MoreliAddict]

Yeah. I think you have a point there. And no one person can change the world's opinion - it's too mammoth a task.

But I also think (and I'm sure many of you would agree with me) that from my observations, humans tend to be a very self-serving species. And if we don't make much needed changes, then in the long run (though perhaps not in our lifetime) the homosapiens species is doomed.
In the long-run the sun will burn out and all species on Earth which weren't able to build rockets are doomed. So relatively speaking "the homo-sapiens species" is doing alright...

[stevenrudge]

The wild caught v captive bred argument is bogus really,as everything we now have in captivity was bred from W/C stock,so for us to get pious about W/C is a not really on,having said that most of the pythons and Boas were originally caught for the skin trade with the reptile or pet trade as a by-product so you could say that if we did not have them they were died,l do agree that with your story about mass importing very cheap reps with a highly specialised food intake is very irresponsible and could be stopped,but l think there still is a case for importing reps responsibly
your thoughts

[MDT]

"back in the day"......wild caught used to be all we could really find. I remember buying a wc Texas Indigo about 30 yrs ago. Completely parasite ridden, and despite the vets attempts, it died about 3 wks later (not much help w regard to exotic veterinarians at that time either).

There are so many captive bred options now wild caught is not even on my radar. I'm grateful to the "pioneers" who have successfully bred these wild caught stocks into a sustainable and plentiful source.

Ymmv

[stevenrudge]

"back in the day"......wild caught used to be all we could really find. I remember buying a wc Texas Indigo about 30 yrs ago. Completely parasite ridden, and despite the vets attempts, it died about 3 wks later (not much help w regard to exotic veterinarians at that time either).

There are so many captive bred options now wild caught is not even on my radar. I'm grateful to the "pioneers" who have successfully bred these wild caught stocks into a sustainable and plentiful source.

Ymmv
l agree totally,back then it was 70-30% the rep would die,but the hobby had to start somewhere,the problem we have now is that the (colour morphers) have ruined most of the true lines,so that there are no pure lines that breed true, plus all the intergades,l still think that we still need small scale imports,l'm not talking about large scale mass importing of cheap disposable reps,on that l agree with you

[UwabamiReptiles]

I think there is a place for the wild caught animals in the hobby. It is definitely over done for a boat load of species out there. I personally feel that wild caught animals should be used to establish captive stock so the species doesn't have to get to the point of being over collected.

I do realize that its always going to happen because people will always buy the cheaper animal (new people to the hobby anyway). Maybe it wouldn't be a horrible idea to put some stricter regulations on numbers imported, etc. Like do we really need to bring in thousands of baby ball pythons every year? Are there not enough breeders of ball pythons to cover the needs of everybody that wants a ball python? At the same time, I want to get a couple of species into my collection eventually that I know will have to be wild caught. I would consider that so I could establish captive stock so wild caught individuals wouldn't continue to get collected.

At the end of the day, all of are animals started in the wild and someone collected them and bred them. Like mentioned above, its not a cut and dry issue.

[exwizard]

[Looking around for the popcorn-eating emoticon, waiting for the debate to begin]
-----

It's easy to have that mentality, and I'm not necessarily knocking the philosophy behind it. After all, who isn't for conservation, right? Conservation is not my reason to never do wild cauht. CBB gernerally is healthier all the way around.

But realistically, its not a very cut-and-dry issue, when you consider really how commonly-kept herps are in the pet trade: Chinese water dragons, savannah monitors, African fat-tailed geckos, tokay geckos, blue-tongued skinks, uromastyx, Russian tortoises, and of course, baby ball pythons, just to mention a few. Its nice that people make the decision to "never buy WC" but when you think about, that really limits your options for expanding your collection, especially if you're on a budget. How many people you know breed savannah monitors in captivity? tokay geckos? Russian tortoises? I know there are some, but CBB animals are often double the price you'd pay for a WC one. A lot of newbies are either unwilling to pony up the extra dough or more often than not, are completely unaware CBB is even an option. The latter, I'm mainly referring to the average Jill or Joe who walks into Petco and sees a savannah monitor or water dragon. They may not even have a clue of the submerged iceberg they're standing on that represents the captive reptile industry. I keep none of those so it doesnt change my opinion in the least. All of my snakes are cbb and I will always be resolved to never do wild caught.

A lot of animals are still only available (mostly) through wildcuaght collection and importation because they are either very difficult to reproduce, or there is marketability in reproducing them in captivity. These animals are not for me. For example, for most dealers, it is cheaper to order a crate load of WC tokay geckos than go to the effort of breeding the things. I'm not saying its right; I'm merely pointing out the reality of the situation. I agree that reality exists but again, these animals are not for me. My choice.

In short, if the tides are really going to turn, you're going to have to convince every single person out there remotely interested in keeping herps to only buy from captive bred stock. Personally, I feel this is unrealistic and futile goal. Im not out to convince the world and Im not desirous of any debate. Im just here expressing my opinion and thats as far as it goes.

I think there is a place for the wild caught animals in the hobby. It is definitely over done for a boat load of species out there. I personally feel that wild caught animals should be used to establish captive stock so the species doesn't have to get to the point of being over collected. I agree with this. I also think that the cbb reptiles out there got their start generations back from wild caught but now that there are cbb stock to choose from, its better to stick with that.

I do realize that its always going to happen because people will always buy the cheaper animal (new people to the hobby anyway). Maybe it wouldn't be a horrible idea to put some stricter regulations on numbers imported, etc. Like do we really need to bring in thousands of baby ball pythons every year? Not a good enough reason for more regs. The last thing we need is the government to get more involved with even more restrictions. Are there not enough breeders of ball pythons to cover the needs of everybody that wants a ball python? Yes there are. At the same time, I want to get a couple of species into my collection eventually that I know will have to be wild caught. I would consider that so I could establish captive stock so wild caught individuals wouldn't continue to get collected. This will continue the demand for more wild caught animals.

At the end of the day, all of are animals started in the wild and someone collected them and bred them. Agreed and the above mentioned point thats been made applies here as well. Like mentioned above, its not a cut and dry issue. It is for me. No wild caught for me, not now, not ever.

Again, this is just my 2c worth. My opinions and not applicable as fact. This is just what I think about this.

[jaleely]

I do not, and will not buy wild caught. If you want an animal, pony up the money to buy a captive bred...if you can't afford that, you shouldn't be buying it anyway. Go rescue something...heck snakes are TEN dollars at the pound here in my county.
Buying wild caught to "expand your collection" is selfish. Taking the animal from the wild is selfish. If it's bred in captivity it doesn't know what it's missing.

Not to mention it seems like a lot of people that worry about expanding their collection are also guilty of giving up/giving away animals...and buying and selling on whim.
Talk about part of the problem.

Who cares, except other people like you,,,if you've purchased this new exciting species. Hell even i'm selfish for getting what i've gotten so far...i do work very hard to make a decent life for the animals i have, but you won't catch me getting off of my high horse and ever saying it's okay to import any species just so i can keep it in a cage somewhere to expand my collection *rolls eyes*

[jaleely]

Oh and just because all of our animals started out being caught in the wild, doesn't mean we should perpetuate doing that any further. Quite a few things have been done throughout history that are really just flat out unacceptable now. Why you would use the excuse "it's been done before" i have no idea.
If you have to get an animal imported from the wild just to suit your fancy...I think by my previous posts you know what i think of that...
Flat out selfish and just unnecessary. If you want to own a snake, go adopt one. Go get one from the millions and millions of ball python and boa breeders. If you are in it for the joy of owning a pet, that should be good enough for you.
If you're in it to breed and make money, import things you think you can breed and sell, or import things you want on display...you are just flat out selfish and pointless, and cruel. And selfish. Did i mention selfish?
It's not acceptable, it's unnecessary, and it's extremely spoiled. You, yes you, person who gets wild caught animals shipped to you...are really, really low.

[UwabamiReptiles]

I do not, and will not buy wild caught. If you want an animal, pony up the money to buy a captive bred...if you can't afford that, you shouldn't be buying it anyway. Go rescue something...heck snakes are TEN dollars at the pound here in my county.
Buying wild caught to "expand your collection" is selfish. Taking the animal from the wild is selfish. If it's bred in captivity it doesn't know what it's missing.

Not to mention it seems like a lot of people that worry about expanding their collection are also guilty of giving up/giving away animals...and buying and selling on whim.
Talk about part of the problem.

Who cares, except other people like you,,,if you've purchased this new exciting species. Hell even I'm selfish for getting what I've gotten so far...i do work very hard to make a decent life for the animals i have, but you won't catch me getting off of my high horse and ever saying it's okay to import any species just so i can keep it in a cage somewhere to expand my collection *rolls eyes*


Don't see how wanting to keep different animals is selfish. I'll rephrase what I said earlier, I would look for cbb first and if nothing comes up then I would consider wc. Not my first choice to get wc. I don't have any wc in my collection because I anyways look for cb first. Thats common sense to me. I don't see how wanting something other than a boa, ball python, or corn snake makes me whatever.

I completely get your point though as I know most of your collection is from rescues. I totally respect that. Its great that you gave those animals a great home (I know you take excellent care of all your animals from everything I've read on here). I give excellent care to all my animals, always have, always will. Thats the most important thing when keeping any animal.

I don't agree with the mass importation of animals that 90% die every year. But my red tailed green rats are ch and I hope to breed them someday so people can get cbb. Does that make me selfish?

Wiz, after reading your inserts into my post, I agree with the regulation thing. I didn't completely think that through before I posted it, you're right about the last thing we need is the government getting more involved in our hobby. I was only thinking about the thousands and thousands of bush baby bps that are imported every year. I didn't think about anything else, just the animals.

[jaleely]

Honestly, for some reason right now i have a big bug up my butt about this and another issue.
You have a very reasonable and well thought out response, uwabami...I'm just really not into WC right now.

Was thinking about this post, and there are actually a few people whom I know have some exotic WC snakes...and i love their snakes. I still disagree with it, but i'm also being very fussy right now : )

[snake man12]

I support wild caught for the reason that if the species of snake such as hog island boa was taken it could jump start the population if the snakes were released back into the native population. We know this works because it happened with the hog island boa. I don't support the wild caught for pet shops at all , it's terrible.

So I walked into the pet store to buy some cypress mulch and I looked at the snakes in particular the bp's and they were on paper towels and the towels were covered in mites that were moving ahhhhhh. Also I saw might's or ticks or something around there eyes. And when I saw this I just calmly walked out of the store, I just thought I am not gunna get my snakes infested because of improper care of the pet store animals. :unhappy:

[stevenrudge]

l understand some of the strong responses against W/C reps,and l mostly agree,but do you not see the irony in some of your replys?your American hobbyists keeping, Australian, African,snakes,how do you think you got your pets?Ok in an ideal world by now we should not need any W/C any more but the reality is that with some species we do,
its totally personal choice,but to have a total aversion to W/C rep's on any morel argument whilst keeping exotic pets do's not make sense

[exwizard]

l understand some of the strong responses against W/C reps,and l mostly agree,but do you not see the irony in some of your replys?your American hobbyists keeping, Australian, African,snakes,how do you think you got your pets?Ok in an ideal world by now we should not need any W/C any more but the reality is that with some species we do,
its totally personal choice,but to have a total aversion to W/C rep's on any morel argument whilst keeping exotic pets do's not make senseI can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that all my snakes are cbb. It is possible to have cbb snakes and a wide variety of what you have.

[jaleely]

steven, i would be perfectly happy not having austrialian and african snakes. My point exactly is that the ones i do have, mostly, were given up by other people who got them and then got rid of them. I only have most of them because of how many irresponsible people there are out there, willy nilly buying pets.
if there was more crack down on the average joe being able to buy snakes, there wouldn't be so many needing homes, and then it *would* be easier to focus on breeding project for a select few people to import, and use that opportunity to build up populations to release back in the wild....but let's be honest, that's never going to happen except in a few rare instances.
If people are going to import, they are going to do it to have a show animal, or to breed and try to make money.

[marvelfreak]

I would never buy wild caught.
I want to clarify why i wouldn't buy wild caught. I bought a possible wild caught boa years ago. The guy at the pet store wasn't sure which boas were CB and which were WC. Well it turn out it had IBD and it wiped out my entire collection. I would never again risk the safety of the snakes i already own. I would go without rather than buy a WC. That's just me.

Do WC have a place in the reptile business? Most diffidently. With out them we wouldn't have the CB snake that are readily available now days. They find new morph all the time, but at the same time something need to be do to replace what is being taking from the wild. If it wasn't for WC and pet store reptiles wouldn't be so easy to obtain and most of us would own them ,or even be on a snake site having this debate. So as much as we might not like it it serves a purpose.

[exwizard]

You have very good reason not to have WC. There are many other reasons as well. Even though I know that without the current pet trade getting its start from WC or even CH, the fact remains that there are plenty of CBB snakes to choose from now and that WC is not necessary anymore. For me its not a moral issue. Its more that the CBB snakes tend to be healthier and more "bug" free. I have 18 snakes now that range in my cost from $30 to $300 each. I will not risk the lives or the livelihood just to get a WC snake that is not known to be CBB or cant be found in any other way. Its not worth it to me. Id rather do without any more additions. As far as Im concerned there is no debate; not now, not ever.

[stevenrudge]

You have very good reason not to have WC. There are many other reasons as well. Even though I know that without the current pet trade getting its start from WC or even CH, the fact remains that there are plenty of CBB snakes to choose from now and that WC is not necessary anymore. For me its not a moral issue. Its more that the CBB snakes tend to be healthier and more "bug" free. I have 18 snakes now that range in my cost from $30 to $300 each. I will not risk the lives or the livelihood just to get a WC snake that is not known to be CBB or cant be found in any other way. Its not worth it to me. Id rather do without any more additions. As far as Im concerned there is no debate; not now, not ever.
That fine its not for you and you give valid reasons for your stance,but the fact remains that nobody would have any reps if none were ever taken captive in the past,So l find it strange when people start to make a morel stance about exotic captive pets,which we only have because of past W/C caught reps and l'm not talking about established rep species already in abundance in captivity,thats pointless,l'm talking about some species that need a lot more work, like Mangrove Snakes

[Snakefood]

Just an insert here.......

The Palmetto line in Cornsnakes was started from a WC male, without that male being caught and bred, we would not have that beautiful morph coming into our hobby.

Also, someone here had mentioned that the breeders focusing on morphs are breeding out the "true bloodlines", this makes no sense at all, the morphs are there, in the wild. They just tend not to survive to breeding age because they are too easy to see by thier predators, it's not like breeders are genetically altering the "true" bloodlines!!

[exwizard]

That fine its not for you and you give valid reasons for your stance,but the fact remains that nobody would have any reps if none were ever taken captive in the past,So l find it strange when people start to make a morel stance about exotic captive pets,which we only have because of past W/C caught reps and l'm not talking about established rep species already in abundance in captivity,thats pointless,l'm talking about some species that need a lot more work, like Mangrove Snakes
My original point acknowledges the WC origins of our hobby. That being said, I still point out that there are a lot of CBB snakes out there to choose from. Continuing to catch wild snakes when the availability is what it is, is pointless and only further drains our resources. You did mention that there are certain snakes that are not as available yet and I do understand that. I just dont want to see WC or CH snakes continue to be taken out of the wild in perpetuity, but who am I? Im just a small time hobbyist with 18 CBB snakes that are my pets. Nobody important. All Im doing is expressing my opinions.
One more thing, you repeated the moral issue vs keeping exotic pets dilemma. I will repeat as well. This is NOT nor will it ever be a moral issue for me. Its the health and safety of my current snakes that drives me to take the stance that I do. The other stuff is secondary for me.

[StudentoReptile]

I had some interesting thoughts on this over the weekend. I'll share them sometime tomorrow when I can really sit down and write them out (on a laptop at the moment).

[stevenrudge]

My original point acknowledges the WC origins of our hobby. That being said, I still point out that there are a lot of CBB snakes out there to choose from. Continuing to catch wild snakes when the availability is what it is, is pointless and only further drains our resources. You did mention that there are certain snakes that are not as available yet and I do understand that. I just dont want to see WC or CH snakes continue to be taken out of the wild in perpetuity, but who am I? Im just a small time hobbyist with 18 CBB snakes that are my pets. Nobody important. All Im doing is expressing my opinions.
One more thing, you repeated the moral issue vs keeping exotic pets dilemma. I will repeat as well. This is NOT nor will it ever be a moral issue for me. Its the health and safety of my current snakes that drives me to take the stance that I do. The other stuff is secondary for me.Please be assured l was not talking about you with regard to any morel issues about this topic,but some people do bring a holyer than thou attitude with this,and l was trying to show that as we are exotic rep pet keepers that stance is unsustainable

[exwizard]

Please be assured l was not talking about you with regard to any morel issues about this topic,but some people do bring a holyer than thou attitude with this,and l was trying to show that as we are exotic rep pet keepers that stance is unsustainableI understand. No worries.

[jaleely]

That fine its not for you and you give valid reasons for your stance,but the fact remains that nobody would have any reps if none were ever taken captive in the past,So l find it strange when people start to make a morel stance about exotic captive pets,which we only have because of past W/C caught reps and l'm not talking about established rep species already in abundance in captivity,thats pointless,l'm talking about some species that need a lot more work, like Mangrove Snakes

Darn right i'm holier than thou.
ANd i wouldn't have reptiles if they'd never been taken out of the wild. that's a sure as the sky is blue.
i wouldn't need to have most of the ones i have, either, if people weren't constantly importing them, breeding them willy nilly, then giving them up and trading them in so they can buy more, or getting tired of them. If they were rare, select, and expensive, than less people would be interested in them, less people would be buying them, and there *would* be a higher liklihood that the ones that did spend the money and time and effort (if it was difficult) to get them, would keep them, and house them in a responsible manner.

Yup i own snakes. No, i do not think think they should be readilly available to anyone. No i do not think they they should be imported at all, and no, i do not think think that 95% of the breeding projects out there are helpful to the species.
Heck yes i'm a hypocrite. I own exotic snakes. Knowing what i do now, however, i do not support the pet trade. I enjoy, love, and take emense pleasure in my snakes.
If someone wants that experience, as it stands now, go to the pound and pick up one.
Until they are more heavily regulated, there will continue to be horrible breeders (and there are a lot of them), bad conditions, animal neglect, abuse, and giving up. Why go catch more WILD snakes, when there are so many sitting around for free, or at bad homes, and people don't even want them anymore?

I still stand on saying if you want a wild caught snake, you are doing it for selfish reasons. Sorry if you don't like to read that, and it's not even derogatory, it's just a fact. The WC support is the one wanting a specific breed or snake. If the WC supporter just wanted a pet, he would go adopt one.

[snake man12]

Government regulation will do absolutely nothing, in fact it may increase peoples desire to have them. If you think we have have selfish reasons for owning our snakes please re-read the above post

[exwizard]

Put a cross in front of the idea of heavier government regulations! As I said earlier, thats the last thing we need! Sorry to put that in such strong terms but that is one thinbg I feel that strongly about. Government only screws things up. Plain and simple. The unintended consequences of such a thing is unimaginable!
Melissa, I understand your position and why and agree with just about all of it. I just think that there are better ways to accomplish this than get the government even more involved than it already is. There are so many politicians who are just waiting for that chance; even salivating at it because it provides them with an issue that involves emotion to help get them reelected. Ugh! If they had their way, I wouldnt be able to have any snakes at all, even Corns or BPs!

[jaleely]

I implied government, but I don't really support that either as they are morons.
I support the idea of the perfect world and situation where there is no need to even have the idea of importing wild animals. Not gonna happen, but it seems the majority finds it no problem to invade nature and pick up whatever they want to do whatever they want with it.
I kind of mad at the process of all of it!
Making people ave to get a license for dogs hasn't stopped anyone from abandoning them, skipping out on medical care, and treating them like crap...making people have a license for snakes will be just as pointless.

I still think they should not be imported from the wild. there is no justification when there are plenty of homeless, abused, or abandoned ones unless you're wanting a specific display animal. Which, by definition, is something you only want to show off to other people.

And read which above post? I think i've pretty much addressed any reason you think it's okay, and said why i don't think it's okay.

In all reality discussing on the internet is pointless, as we've all already got or minds made up.

[snake man12]

I'm sorry I came off a little harsh but I do have very strong opinions on this matter. I agree with exwizard.

[Snakefood]

Darn right i'm holier than thou.
ANd i wouldn't have reptiles if they'd never been taken out of the wild. that's a sure as the sky is blue..

I hate to argue, but the sky is not always blue!!

My point being, there are exceptions to every rule, and no right or wrong answer on this subject

[jaleely]

The exceptions for keeping wild animals as pets is very small. Not even applicable for an internet post since most people around here, be included, keep the snakes for the simple fact that they just want snakes.

[Snakefood]

well that is a very black and white way of seeing a very grey subject. On a world-wide forum, everything is applicable to some degree!!

[red ink]

Personal reasons nothing more here....

Heck no to WC, lazy, uneducated and undedicated way for sellers to make a quick buck on another species life....

Difficult to breed in captivity, for some species absolutely... so if you don't have the dedication to figure it out to supply the captive industry with these species then they are probably not meant for captivity... What do some do? Pay some (usually) third world country to put a whole lot in a box ship them to them so they could sell them.... I'm sorry I will not financially support your ineptitude in the understanding of reptile husbandry nor will I support your lack of dedication to figuring it out just so you can put a whole heap of them behind glass with $99.99 in a bright star shaped sticker.

Being a hypocrite cause all of them came from WC at one stage or another maybe so... That doesn't mean I need to repeat the mistakes of the past or continue to do so. We all want cool new species but if you can't get them through people who have put in the knowledge and dedication in establishing a captive breeding program = then NO! Who are you going to turn to for knowledge on the new fancy species you have from WC origin. What do they eat, what are they're natural habits like, what's the correct temps, humidity, substrate.... oh wait I know all of that the pet store already told me. Let's face it inevitably WC are bought by noobs... noobs FFS, the last people who you would in trust a WC animal to, but hey 2 months down the track it ends up stiff in the trash, not to worry fresh new shipment on the way as long as they have another $99.99.

And the gravy train keeps on rolling for the inept and greedy, after all nature keeps making them don't it all i need to do is keep boxing them.

WC = keeping the reptile hobby stunted and keepers inept in their knowledge... LOVE IT

[infernalis]

Yeah. I think you have a point there. And no one person can change the world's opinion - it's too mammoth a task.

But I also think (and I'm sure many of you would agree with me) that from my observations, humans tend to be a very self-serving species. And if we don't make much needed changes, then in the long run (though perhaps not in our lifetime) the homosapiens species is doomed.


We are self serving & We are doomed....

What about habitat destruction?? There are species vanishing from this planet that have not even been discovered yet, but the oil / gas drilling & mining companies are not going to go bankrupt avoiding environmental impact.

[stevenrudge]

The exceptions for keeping wild animals as pets is very small. Not even applicable for an internet post since most people around here, be included, keep the snakes for the simple fact that they just want snakes.
Theres nothing wrong in being opinionated,but your being patronising and generalising people on a big subject,l keep, breed and study snakes because for me they are the most fascinating animals on the planet,not everyone is a Moran that are incapable of looking after a pet,for sure you get people how miss treat animals,like you get people how miss treat other people but we do not judge all people the same,maybe we should legislate against stupid people having kidds because some do not look after themselves properly,Err hang on a government has already tried that--- the Nazis

[StudentoReptile]

I certainly respect everyone’s viewpoints and none of the following is necessarily meant to change anyone’s opinions, as likewise, I don’t really expect anyone to change mine. It is only meant to offer a different perspective on the issue.
*****
First off, this topic kind of reminds me of my personal stance on vegetarianism/veganism. I concur wholeheartedly that such a lifestyle (if implemented properly and for the right reasons) is much healthier and better both economically and environmentally. If everyone on the planet decided to become a vegetarian, the world would probably be a lot better. However, there is still a large faction of people that quite simply enjoys eating meat, and I am one of them. Getting that many people to make the change is, in a word, futile. [Note: this isn’t meant to drag that topic into this one. Anyone wishing to discuss vegetarianism, etc, please refer back to that thread. I was only using this as an analogy.]

So in that respect, I agree philosophically and commend those (like ezwizard) who choose not to deal with any wild caught species. I feel if there were more people like that, it would hopefully inspire more folks to focus their efforts on breeding species that, quite simply, are not commonly bred in captivity.
*****
Wayne pretty much hit the nail on the head. Our race is self-serving, and as long as it remains this way, nothing really is going to change. Allow me to elaborate…

Wayne mentioned habitat destruction. Not to trying to downplay the effects of over-collecting and wildcaught importation does to natural populations, but in reality, all of that is a drop in the bucket compared to how many animals are lost when an entire forest is demolished for the lumber or preparation for the development of a hotel or whatever.

I remember talking to Wayne on the phone before he came on my radio show a while back. He was telling me about how these countries work. People are making a mere few dollars a day collecting animals for whatever; pet trade, skin trade, food, novelty, whatever. This is how these people earn a living and provide for their families. I’m not saying its right or wrong; just pointing out how the world works in some of these places. Most of you are absolutely right; these people don’t give a rat’s behind about the “proper care” of savannah monitors or ball pythons. They likely never will. Try hopping on a plane and going over to west Africa and explaining it to them.

On another forum, we somehow got on the subject of zoos and how some zoos don’t take the greatest care of their animals, and elephants got brought up. One member said if he was an elephant living in Africa, and he had a choice, he would jump at the chance at living in a mediocre life in a confined space in an American zoo rather than fearing for his life every moment on the Serengeti that a poacher is going to come riddle him with bullets and rip out his ivory tusks while he’s still alive, or get gored by a rival male, or whatever. Now I know that’s elephants, not reptiles, but do you see where I’m going? I wasn’t really intending to use the “well, they always have a better life in captivity than in the wild” argument, because I know that is not always true, but back to Wayne’s statement, it kinda is. As long as humans are pillaging and ruining the planet, is the wild really the best place for some of these species?

Wayne was telling me that one of his contacts told him (and Wayne correct me if I remember this wrong), that savannah monitors are often torn apart alive by baboons….for sport, apparently. The monkeys don’t really eat them, they just catch the lizards and tear them limb from limb. God knows why, but shoot…one could almost make the argument that sitting in a boring glass tank for a couple of years under a basking lamp and having my meals brought to me is a little better than getting torn apart alive by a baboon, or going to the skin trade, or getting skewered on a stick to be sold in a bazaar somewhere, or getting crushed by a bulldozer’s tread because my habitat is getting turned into a factory warehouse.
*****
I may get some slack for bringing him up, but whatever…Tom Crutchfield’s unofficial slogan is “Conservation through Commercialization.” That’s almost what it’s come to be. At the rate, we’re destroying ecosystems across the globe, I often wonder how we can still justify leaving some of these species where they’re at. I’m not saying I have all the answers, but I know that in the grand scheme of things, in this big, huge machine of ever-turning wheels and cogs that represents the human race, its hard to make a huge difference.

Again, I commend some peoples’ reasons for not keeping WC. But whether or not you choose to buy WC probably doesn’t matter a hill of beans, because that’s one more animal that might get thrown into the skin trade pile instead of the pet trade pile, or gets left in the wild to worry about diseases in predators.

It is nice to ponder and envision an ideal, perfect world, but we’ve all heard the saying, “If you wish in one hand and crap in the other, guess which one will fill up first.” I don’t like to spend my time wishing for things that will likely never happen. I would rather focus on things that are real.

I’m a little like Jaleely at the moment; I’m at a place in my herpetocultural career in that I am focusing on rescues and unwanted herps, and not concerned with my personal desires per say. That said, my direction can always change in the years to come, and I may once again find myself wanting to work with new, obscure species, that may not be readily available in captivity-bred. I don’t like the system, but I know the system isn’t going to change anytime soon either.
*****
On a slightly different note, I kinda feel like this topic could be split into two categories. One category represents species in which the industry demand can be adequately met by viable captive-bred populations. I don’t have any sufficient data to support the claim, but it seems that the general consensus is that ball pythons are one such example that falls within this category. I suppose we’ll never know until someone actually pulls the plug, cuts us off from Africa and we are solely dependent on CBB stock. I bet, prices for normal will go up though!

The second category represents species whose demand cannot be met by captive-bred stock and collection from wild populations is still required. For the second group, obviously serious effort should be made to put those species into the first group, and if they cannot, then collection should be regulated.

[Snakefood]

We are self serving & We are doomed....

What about habitat destruction?? There are species vanishing from this planet that have not even been discovered yet, but the oil / gas drilling & mining companies are not going to go bankrupt avoiding environmental impact.

This is one of the "exceptions" I'm speaking of. Perfect example being the San Francisco Garter. If they went and caught a swack of these out of the WILD, and gave them to responsible, knowledgable breeders like you Wayne, maybe we could save the sub-species as a whole. That is an exception that I can't ignore.

Then, like I mentioned before, the first Palmetto Corn was a WC male, which brought a beautiful new morph into an already domesticised species, of which we are all well aware of the care needs.

I am not saying I support the wholesale capture, shipment and sale of WC snakes, but like I said, the sky is not always blue, and there are exceptions to each and every rule, except that we all have to die one day.

[exwizard]

That was beautifully written. Thank you.

[jaleely]

Allow me to troll a bit steven (well i am, and you are allowing me it seems, since you are responding to me as if i am)... I think that animals can't look out for themselves, and instead are captured and forced into captivity. I said "Yup i own snakes. No, i do not think think they should be readilly available to anyone. No i do not think they they should be imported at all, and no, i do not think think that 95% of the breeding projects out there are helpful to the species."
So... you think that me saying that snakes (or animals in general) should not be readily available to anyone and everyone...a living, breathing, creature...is the same as the regulations put upon the jews and having children...as if i was a nazi.
I see.
So...treating everyone the same way...saying they should be able and willing to afford care for the animal, and that they should first home all the homeless animals, and that they should not import wild animals, is bad.
that somehow...that is as limiting as what the Jews faced in the Holocaust...have you actually MET anyone who survived the holocaust??

BTW steven, i do have to agree that i think stupid people should not breed.

[Jay]

That was an odd comparison....

[Snakefood]

and IMO, completely inapropriate too.....WOW

[Robyn@SYR]

We are self serving & We are doomed....

What about habitat destruction?? There are species vanishing from this planet that have not even been discovered yet, but the oil / gas drilling & mining companies are not going to go bankrupt avoiding environmental impact.

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