IS MY Snake Eating TOO OFTEN/Please Respond

[ILuvMyHognose]

Hello Everyone,
Let’s start by saying I had a discussion with a friend last night about the amount I am feeding my snakes.
For a back round on the history of me and the snakes I will quickly discuss:
I had 2 hognose snakes shipped to me last late spring/early summer 2011. They are both 2010 hatchlings. The male will be 2 in July and the female 2 in August. The breeder I bought them from is a pretty well respected breeder. I have spoken to him several times via phone and email. He is a very nice man and seems to know what he is doing, breeding for years. When they arrived at my house they were eating live mice at the time and the male was having trouble feeding. He wasn’t taking food as often as the female and he was very skittish. I discussed with the breeder how I wanted to transition them into eating frozen. He walked me through the process and proceeded to tell me that he feeds his snakes every 2-3 days. He also told me that hoggies sometimes are picky about the size of their prey they are eating. So he told me to offer the male small pinkies every 2-3 days. (I just wanted to note that my dad has owned reptiles for 40 years and he even told me that every 2-3 days sounds like a lot.) But I did what the breeder said and the male started eating again. The female is now eating 1-2 small fuzzies every week or so but the male still only wants pinkies, I tried offering him up bigger meals but he does not want them. I even withheld food for a few weeks to see if he would get hungry enough to eat a fuzzy. He did not want the bigger mouse. He only likes pinkies, and I am talking the little red, just born pinkies. And I know he can eat bigger prey, he just doesn’t seem to want them.
I am just concerned now because my friend told me I could potentially be killing my snake feeding him that often. Is this true? And if so does anyone have any idea on why the breeder might have told me this. It is a big concern for me that he gave me this information and I could be putting my snake in danger. I am looking forward to your replies. Once I see what everyone says I will be contacting the breeder and questioning why he gave me the advice he did. Thanks everyone very much and I am looking forward to becoming a regular member of the forum. I love my little hoggies so much!!!:)

[Snakefood]

I don't know if you're "killing your snake" by doing this as he will be digesting them pretty darned fast.

However, if he doesn't want anything but pinkies, maybe you could try rat pinkies as they are about twice the size of mouse pinkies and still have no hair??

Just a thought!!

[BobH]

As long as they are still growing, they will turn extra calories into growth. Once they mature and greatly slow growth, then you might be feeding them too often. Have you tried rat pinks on the male?

[StudentoReptile]

Not every snake species has the same metabolism. We humans like to have our snakes on 7-day eating regimens a lot of the time probably because its pretty darn convenient for us. The fact is that many younger snakes (and colubrids especially) eat a lot more often in the wild.

Now one major factor here to keep in mind is their natural diet. In the case of hognose snakes, its mostly amphibians and the occasional lizard. The content of bone (calcium) vs lean muscle meat is different than a plump fat pinky mouse with little bone structure.

So in general, more frequent meals isn't necessarily bad, as long as you offset the quantity (or size) of the prey items you're offering. In the past, I have personally seen better growth in my snakes feeding smaller prey more often then larger meals less often.

As far as hognose go, feeding every 3 days is on the high end of the scale, but if the habitat is set-up properly, and your temps are correct, this shouldn't be a major issue. There are a handful of keepers are have great success feeding their young hogs every 2-3 days, some feed every 3-4 days, others 4-5, etc. Personally, I think every 4-5 is fine, but that's just me. To each his own.

[ILuvMyHognose]

Thank You all for you replies. I was really nervous last night after hearing my snake could die. But he seems to like to eat more often with smaller prey. I have not tried rat pinkies, at this point that may be a little big for him. But I will try it if I have to! My dad always went by his rule, feed the snake if it is hungry and looking for food. All his snakes made it to 16, 17, 18 years of age. His snakes were also corn and king snakes. This is the first time we have owned hognose. Their personalitites are quite different. They are kind of quirkie. I like em.

[Snakefood]

Geez if I used that rule, my Okeetee corn would eat every day (she's my little piggy!!)

[alessia55]

For snakes that are almost 2 years old, I do think they should be eating every 7 days. My thought is that feeding them pinkies every 2-3 days is making it so that they can't/won't eat appropriately-sized meals every 7 days instead.

Could you post photos of your hoggies? That might give us a better idea about their size.

My suggestion would be to start giving them pinkies every 7 days, and eventually they'll both start eating fuzzies. Yes, some snakes do better if fed more often... like hatchlings. But as ~2yr old hoggies, I'm struggling to see how feeding them so often can be good for them. I personally know lots of people who have hoggies, who live into old age, by feeding them every 7-14 days as adults. :hmm:

[shaunyboy]

i'd say feeding every 3 days is a bit much,unless the species has a fast metabolic rate

i feed carpet hatchlings every 7 days

sub adults every 14 to 21 days

adults every 20 to 30 days

feeding carpet pythons,every 3 days would be considered POWER FEEDING

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

I didn't catch in the original post that they were 2 yrs old. Yeah, 2-3 days are a bit much for a 2-yr-old, even for hognose. I say 5-7 days is fine.

[BarelyBreathing]

I agree with Alessia and Student. Two to three days is way too much. If you're going to continue to feed smaller prey, you can feed every five to seven days. I feed my hognose every two weeks, appropriately sized prey. You don't want to risk complications as a result of too much food.

[ILuvMyHognose]

Yes they are almost 2. The female eats less than 2-3 and she eats bigger meals. I feed her once a week. The male is my little picky pants, he is the one that I have been feeding often, that is why I contacted the breeder and he suggested feeding him small meals often. I will take everyones advice and go ahead and feed less. I found them to be small for their age. I have heard hognose grow a tad slower than other snakes, true or not?? Does anyone have any input on that? Again thanks for everyones replies!!

[alessia55]

If you post a photo of them, next to something for reference (like a pencil), we'll be able to tell you if they are small for their age, overweight, underweight, etc. That would help lots.

[ILuvMyHognose]

Geez if I used that rule, my Okeetee corn would eat every day (she's my little piggy!!)
Our corn and king snakes never seemed to want to eat as much as these hognose do though. All of our other snakes seemed to get hungry every few weeks. The hognose always seem hungry...LOL

[ILuvMyHognose]

If you post a photo of them, next to something for reference (like a pencil), we'll be able to tell you if they are small for their age, overweight, underweight, etc. That would help lots.
The only reason I say I think they are smaller is because I just ran into some at a pet store and I thought, "geez, mine are almost 2 and they seem tiny compared to these." So I was just going by that. I will take some pics of them this week and go ahead and post them up. I have a few pictures of them just not next to an object.:)

[Gregg M]

Now one major factor here to keep in mind is their natural diet. In the case of hognose snakes, its mostly amphibians and the occasional lizard. The content of bone (calcium) vs lean muscle meat is different than a plump fat pinky mouse with little bone structure.


The only thing you said that I do not agree with is this statement above. Amphibians do not even make up half of a wild hognose snakes diet. This has been studied.



My suggestion would be to start giving them pinkies every 7 days, and eventually they'll both start eating fuzzies. Yes, some snakes do better if fed more often... like hatchlings. But as ~2yr old hoggies, I'm struggling to see how feeding them so often can be good for them. I personally know lots of people who have hoggies, who live into old age, by feeding them every 7-14 days as adults. :hmm:

This might be fine for corns and kings. However, hognose snakes both juvinie and adult, have very high metabolic rates, My breeders eat as often as my hatchings. They are fed every 3 days. Feeding even adults every 7 to 14 days is far too little for the species if you are keeping them with the proper basking temps.

I agree with Alessia and Student. Two to three days is way too much. If you're going to continue to feed smaller prey, you can feed every five to seven days. I feed my hognose every two weeks, appropriately sized prey. You don't want to risk complications as a result of too much food.

You are underfeeding your hognose snakes BB. You should really up the feeding on them. What temps are you keeping them at?

To the OP,
Feed your hogs every 3 days. Do exactly what the breeder told you to do.

[jaleely]

Most of you have seen the photos of my hoggies. I've never noticed them being thin, even when they've gone off food for a shed. But when they are not shedding, they are actually begging me for food. I feed them every few days.
My "hard to feed" male has now turned into a garbage can, and my "easy" to feed male has now turned into the pickiest eater I have out of all my 16 snakes *lol*

I try to feed my picky one, Copper...and if he won't take it, i try again the next day. He usually will, then. (All conditions have to be accurate! Braining...opening the skull...it has to be the perfect warm temperature. It can't be wet...and it can't hover over him, it has to be presented head on with the tongs *lol*)
Anyway, i've found that my "garbage can" eater seems to prefer fish. I've switched him from mice, to fish *shrug* i just add caclium to the small fillet. He gobbles it down. I fed him just about every other day, when he was little. He's almost full grown now, i'd say. I feed every two-three days. His photos are through my profile and you can see he's not fat!
They poop after every meal.

[ILuvMyHognose]

Hello everyone, I would like to thank everyone for their replies and advice which I take very seriously. Especially when it comes to my animals well being.
I just read the other posts of fellow Hoggie owners. I have read in several articles that the metabolic rate of a hognose is quite fast. Which is why I was struggling with the idea of feeding them every 7-14 days. The breeders care sheet did not indicate whatsoever that the frequency of feeding should be tapered off as they grow. My snakes are clearly not obese nor mal nourished, I can show you when I take pictures of them this week. I will however feed them a little less just to be on the safe side. I will feed them maybe every 4-5 days. I am just not comfortable with some people saying that it is a danger and some saying that the snakes would be underfed if they weren’t fed every 2-3 days. As you can see it is fair to see why I would struggle with the information I am given. I know you shouldn’t trust every little thing that a breeder says, based on the pure fact that I don’t personally know the man but seeing how successful he is and seeing how beautifully his snakes and other species turn out I can’t help but think that he has to be doing something right.
So like I said, due to the different directional pull of the members opinions I think I will every 4-5 day feed. That seems like a right in the middle number. If that doesn’t work out for me in the next few months there is always my trusty exotic animal veterinarian I can take a trip to see with my hoggies for a checkup. I will update everyone on how it is going with them. I will make sure I get some pictures up of my little guys soon!!
Thanks Again all of you for your advice!!! Greatly appreciated.

[ILuvMyHognose]

I just showed my dad all of the posts and he tends to agree with the every 7 day method. He said he thought that every 2-3 days was alot. But he also notes he has never owned a hognose and doesn't know their eating habits as well as the king and corn snakes so that is why we were going by what the breeder said. He also mentioned the term "power feeding" (as someone mentioned above) as a method some breeders use to beef up there breeding stock. He said that maybe that is the method that the breeder was using when I talked to him, mentioning that I was concerned that the snakes didn't seem big enough. I haven't talked to the breeder in a long time. I think I am going to shoot him an email and tell him my concerns and ask him if I misunderstood what he was telling me to do. I am just curious to see what he has to say.
AGAIN!! THANKS!!!

[Gregg M]

The breeders methods are not power feeding. It is the proper feeding for Heterodon nasicus.

Look at the people who are telling you to feed every 7 days or so. They are people who either do not keep the species or are not successful with the species. The peope who are telling you every 3 days is the proper feeding amount are peole who have great success with keeping and breeding the species, including myself.

To me, its a no brainer. The opinion of those who have experience and success with the species you are looking for info on are the people you should be listening to. Those who do not have success or experience with hognose snakes are full of opinions based on nothing but information they have read about other species.

Keep in mind, these are very successful breeders in the hobby.

Here are a couple of links to other breeders care sheets.

Bennett Reptiles - Hognose Care Info (http://www.hognose.com/hognosecare.shtml)

Hognose Snakes (http://www.hognose.co.uk/Hognose%20care.htm)

Hognose Caresheet (http://extremehogs.com/Caresheet.html)

[ILuvMyHognose]

The breeders methods are not power feeding. It is the proper feeding for Heterodon nasicus.

Look at the people who are telling you to feed every 7 days or so. They are people who either do not keep the species or are not successful with the species. The peope who are telling you every 3 days is the proper feeding amount are peole who have great success with keeping and breeding the species, including myself.

To me, its a no brainer. The opinion of those who have experience and success with the species you are looking for info on are the people you should be listening to. Those who do not have success or experience with hognose snakes are full of opinions based on nothing but information they have read about other species.

Keep in mind, these are very successful breeders in the hobby.

Here are a couple of links to other breeders care sheets.

Bennett Reptiles - Hognose Care Info (http://www.hognose.com/hognosecare.shtml)

Hognose Snakes (http://www.hognose.co.uk/Hognose%20care.htm)

Hognose Caresheet (http://extremehogs.com/Caresheet.html)


I absolutely respect your success as a hognose keeper. Which is mainly what I was looking for. Someone who, knows the species, keeps the species, had success with them and mainly has experience with the snake, especially who has had success keeping this particular snake to a ripe old age. Those are the people that I have been looking for. Because the breeder seems to know what he is doing and is the type of person I dealt with in the past with other things like lizards and such and has never done me wrong with any of them. That is mainly why I came to this forum to get different opinions based on experience with hognose in particular. The question that has been bothering me the last few days is “why would the breeder stear me in such a wrong direction?” it just didn’t seem to add up to me, especially since I have become such good friends with him over the years. I have seen his breeding stock and they all seem healthy and happy. I hope my own decisions with my own hognose with lead them into a happy, healthy, long life with me. We will always learn from experience and I hope my hoggies and myself benefit from a good one. I thank you all for your advice and opinions, I have gathered lots of info from just this thread alone that I can go ahead and make a good decision on my own. I greatly appreciate all of your input!!!! I also hope to become a long lasting member on this forum. I am sure I will have lots of questions as a new hognose owner and I am excited to learn more about them. I just really love these little guys. They are awesome!!! I also have many other reptiles that I would love to share with all of you.

[BarelyBreathing]

Every breeder I've ever spoken to has advised me to keep him on this schedule, and they keep their snakes on this schedule, as well. He is not undersized, I've been told he is what is to be expected for his age.

[Gregg M]

Every breeder I've ever spoken to has advised me to keep him on this schedule, and they keep their snakes on this schedule, as well. He is not undersized, I've been told he is what is to be expected for his age.

BB,
Who is every breeder you have spoken to? Seriously, I know and am friends with pretty much all the top hognose breeders in the hobby. That is where I learned how to keep and breed them.

How old is your hog and how much does it weigh? I am not trying to be a tool. Just want to know who is stearing you in the wrong direction.

Hognose keeping has coe a long way over the last few years.

[BarelyBreathing]

I've only spoken to Colorado and Kansas breeders. I've never weighed him, but he's between six and nine months old I believe (I will double check with hubby).

[Toronto1977]

The breeders methods are not power feeding. It is the proper feeding for Heterodon nasicus.

Look at the people who are telling you to feed every 7 days or so. They are people who either do not keep the species or are not successful with the species. The peope who are telling you every 3 days is the proper feeding amount are peole who have great success with keeping and breeding the species, including myself.

To me, its a no brainer. The opinion of those who have experience and success with the species you are looking for info on are the people you should be listening to. Those who do not have success or experience with hognose snakes are full of opinions based on nothing but information they have read about other species.

Keep in mind, these are very successful breeders in the hobby.

Here are a couple of links to other breeders care sheets.

Bennett Reptiles - Hognose Care Info (http://www.hognose.com/hognosecare.shtml)

Hognose Snakes (http://www.hognose.co.uk/Hognose%20care.htm)

Hognose Caresheet (http://extremehogs.com/Caresheet.html)

Thanks for providing such great info Gregg. I will be following your recommendations with my Hoggie.

[jaleely]

Don't forget to post pics! I want to see your little hoggies!
I forgot to agree that their metabolism was higher than a lot of other snakes. It is, so Gregg is right on the ball and it is not power feeding for them.

BB we need pics of your hoggie too!

[BarelyBreathing]

You know, I don't think I have a single picture of him. That needs to change. Tonight.

[Gregg M]

I've only spoken to Colorado and Kansas breeders. I've never weighed him, but he's between six and nine months old I believe (I will double check with hubby).

I do not know any hognose breeders in those States. Can you name one or two?

Not many breeders in Colorado because of the fact that you can only have up to 12 at any time. Breeding and hatching one clutch would put you over the limit and would cause you to be breaking the law. Also, even if captive bred, they can not leave the State of Colorado. Also, those of us, outside the State of Colorado are not allowed to ship hogs into the State of Colorado.

Here are the laws.

Except as provided in #015.A. of these regulations, up to four individuals of each of the following species and/or subspecies of reptiles and amphibians may be taken annually and held in captivity, provided that no more than twelve in the aggregate may be possessed at any time:
Plains spadefoot
Woodhouse’s toad
Boreal chorus frog
Painted turtle Ornate box turtle
Common sagebrush lizard
Ornate tree lizard
Common side-blotched lizard
Prairie lizard
Plateau fence lizard
Gophersnake
Terrestrial gartersnake
Plains gartersnake
Common lesser earless lizard
Tiger whiptail
North American racer
Plains hog-nosed snake

[BarelyBreathing]

I am familiar with the laws in Colorado. It just so happens that the breeders here breed eastern hogs and tri-colors. Mark, Dan, and Katie to name a few.

[Gregg M]

I am familiar with the laws in Colorado. It just so happens that the breeders here breed eastern hogs and tri-colors. Mark, Dan, and Katie to name a few.

That might explain your stance on feeding. If we were talking about Easterns or tri-colors, feeding every 7 days would be enough and I would agree with you. However, we are talking about Westerns which require different husbandry than both the Eastern and tri-color hognoses.

See how easy we can get to the bottom of things when you provide information?

[StudentoReptile]

In light of this new information, I'm actually astonished how many herpers out there seem synonymize all the hognose species with each other.

I was actually familiar with easterns long before I was familiar with westerns/plains.

But I have encountered a surprising amount of hobbyists that think there is only "one" type of hognose.

[bladeblaster]

very interesting read, considering its about hognoses LOL

[jaleely]

bladeblaster, hognoses ARE interesting! =P

BB looking forward to pics! You know i went and looked for one in your stuff! LOL

[ILuvMyHognose]

I agree, hoggies are interesting. btw-my hogs are westerns.

[kernel]

Greg, I have decided to start feeding mine more often after the info you shared. You say feed every 3 days, but would every 4 be OK? Also, I will be breeding them in the next year or so, so can you share every bit of info you have? I strive be the best keeper and breeder I can.

[Gregg M]

Greg, I have decided to start feeding mine more often after the info you shared. You say feed every 3 days, but would every 4 be OK? Also, I will be breeding them in the next year or so, so can you share every bit of info you have? I strive be the best keeper and breeder I can.

Hey Kernel,
I will give you a quick rundown of how I do things. Hogs are very easy to keep and breed but if you keep them like corns and kings, you will not be very successful at breeding them.

Feeding every 4 days would be fine but I still prefer feeding every 3 days. Juviniles need to eat a lot to grow properly, adult females need to eat a lot in order to build up vitamin, mineral, and fat stores for breeding and adult males need to because they can go off feeding regularly during the breeding season. In fact I feed my males as often as they will eat.

When feeding this much, you need to run a hot basking spot. You should provide a basking area with a surface temperature in the low to mid 90's. They will utilize these temps through out the day for short periods of time.

Once your females are 200 grams or better, they will be ready to breed. It should take anywhere between a year and a year and a half for females to reach that size if kept properly. My youngest female was only 13 months old when she gave me her first fertile clutch. Males can be much younger and are usually sexually mature at 40 grams. I have heard of much smaller males getting the job done.

You should give hogs a brumation period where temps will be in the mid to high 50's. I drop mine down to 54. I stop feeding them 2 weeks before I drop their temps to make sure they do not have any undigested food in their systems. Some people gradually drop their temps. I do not. I take them from their normal temps and drop them down to 54 degrees. While in brumation, they are always offered fresh clean water. At those temps, they are slowed down but still very much awake and somewhat active. Hydration for this species during brumation is very important. I keep my hogs down for 8 to 10 weeks then they go right back into normal temps.

Once they have basked for a few hours and warmed up fully, I offer them their first meal. Once they have eaten, I start introducing the pairs. I will keep my animals together until I can visually see the female is gravid. Once I know the female is gravid, I remove the male so the female can lay her eggs without being disturbed. Once the female lays her eggs, I feed her and then put the male right back in to breed for the double clutch. With hogs, you can use a different male for the second clutch.

During this entire time my hogs are eating every 3 days. My females usually eat up until they day they are going to lay. Certain females get fed during egg laying in order to keep them from eating their eggs.

A side note.
I offer all my hogs and humid hide/nest box year round. While hogs do come from dry arid places, they do spend lots of time underground where it much more humid. Like most reptiles, hognose snakes need humidified areas where they can go to retain water they take in.

Thats it in a nut shell.

[kernel]

Thank you very much Greg, I'll probably have allot more questions, but that will do it for now. In case I don't find any at the expo weekend after next, do you have any male het albinos?

[Gregg M]

In case I don't find any at the expo weekend after next, do you have any male het albinos?

None right now. I have a ton of eggs incubating though. I will have male 100% het albino and 66% het albinos available in July. I will also have anacondas 100% and 66% het albinos.

[kernel]

I would love to have anacondas, but I wouldn't be able to pull that off. Let me know when yours hatch. If I haven't found any before then, you might have a buyer here.

[kingsnake1]

I feed my hogs 2-3 times per week. I look at them and can easily tell if they are hungry. If they are hungry, I feed them. With their high metabolism, they need it. Feeding once a week is for your convenience, not for the hogs welfare.

[BarelyBreathing]

I haven't been on at all in the last few days. You'll see why soon. :) Along with my hoggy.

[ILuvMyHognose]

I am glad I joined this forum. I am getting alot of great informations from this thread alone. Thanks everyone, esp Gregg.

[ILuvMyHognose]

It has been awhile been pretty busy but I just found a picture of my male hognose when i first got him.
Here he is. I think he is a cutie!!
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j127/crazy_j_photos/Malehognose.jpg

[ILuvMyHognose]

And another of him.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j127/crazy_j_photos/malehognose2.jpg
I can't find the one of the female. I gotta take new pics soon. But for now, here are these