something wrong with hatchling?????

[Snakefood]

Calling all experienced Cornsnake breeders to take a look at this and tell me if I am to worry about it or not.

This little guy pipped yesterday and started to come out of the shell this morning, but as he came out I saw that he has quite literally "tied himself in a knot" right about the spot where the umbilical cord is and the placenta is way bigger and plumper in the egg than any of the rest who have emerged.

sorry, but these are the best pics I could get of it.

19372

19373

19374

:sad:

[Gungirl]

Can you "untie" him? That is really odd...

[Snakefood]

I don't know, I am kind of afraid to try in case I harm him, that's what I was hoping someone here could tell me.

I tried to very gently push his tail end through the knot and he started to slither away from my efforts, being that he is still attached to the placenta via the umbilical cord, I stopped my efforts immediately, took the pics and posted this.

I don't want to try anything else until someone experienced gives me an idea of what to do.

[Gungirl]

Eeek I hope someone with more brains than I have can help you out.

[Snakefood]

kat, you have the brains, just not the experience on this one.

I'm kinda hoping Joanna can tune in on this soon, but it doesn't look like she's online right now and I have to take my son to the dr soon!!!

I don't wan't him dragging the egg around and tearing the umbilical cord before it is time, and I don't want him to tighten the knot either!!

It's just a weird, worrisome situation all around!!

[Gungirl]

If it was my snake I would untie it and hope for the best. IDK though....

[Frozenflame]

cut the umbilical chord... it could be strangling itself....
i don't have experience in breeding but it seem lodgic. try unknowing it very gently watch u dont hurt it with ur finger nails and so forth... probably needs help.
hope this helps :/

[Terranaut]

Do not cut the cord. Leave him be until it falls off. Then worry about the knot. Did he come out of the egg on his own or did you pull him out?

[Snakefood]

he pipped on his own and came out on his own, I did nothing until I saw the knot. Then I tried to "push" the tip of his tail through the knot at which time he started moving away. I felt like he would pull on the umbilical cord and break it prematurely, so I stopped doing anything and came online for some help.

I just got back from the dr's, so I'll go check on him now.

[BarelyBreathing]

I have no advice, but good luck to this little one.

[MojoHerps]

Geesh, poor snake. I have never seen that.

Sometimes the snakes come out of the eggs "too soon" and they are still attached to the yolk or they have not finished absorbing it. I put them on moist paper towels so that it does not dry out and it usually falls off. That is a huge chunk of yolk though so I am not sure what will happen.

The only time I think I have seen a "knotted" baby is when it was dead in the egg. It is possible that the snake developed that way and you may not be able to unknot it. I can't see the harm in trying since I don't think it will be able to absorb that yolk. Can you see where the yolk attaches to the snake? Is it pretty much closed or is it opened and you can see bowel poking through? If that's the case I would not try to unknot the snake but leave it on paper towels that are moist and hope it closes up and unknots itself on its own.

As gruesome as it is I would appreciate better photos if possible.

[Snakefood]

so he is still tied in a knot and still attached by umbilical, I checked inside the egg and the placenta is HUGE, like the same size (or bigger ) than the snake itself, so I have just left him completely alone until

A) The umbilical separates on it's own, or:

B) SOMEONE TELLS ME WHAT TO DO ABOUT THIS!!!

[Snakefood]

Geesh, poor snake. I have never seen that.

Sometimes the snakes come out of the eggs "too soon" and they are still attached to the yolk or they have not finished absorbing it. I put them on moist paper towels so that it does not dry out and it usually falls off. That is a huge chunk of yolk though so I am not sure what will happen.

The only time I think I have seen a "knotted" baby is when it was dead in the egg. It is possible that the snake developed that way and you may not be able to unknot it. I can't see the harm in trying since I don't think it will be able to absorb that yolk. Can you see where the yolk attaches to the snake? Is it pretty much closed or is it opened and you can see bowel poking through? If that's the case I would not try to unknot the snake but leave it on paper towels that are moist and hope it closes up and unknots itself on its own.

As gruesome as it is I would appreciate better photos if possible.

I will try my very best for better pics and will go get you a better description of where the umbilical cord meets the snake

The thing is the snake is still attached to the cord, the cord is still attached to the HUGE placenta, and the placenta is still attached to the egg.

So do I put the whole kit and kaboodle onto damp paper towel??

I'll go do the rest of what you asked as soon as I get an answer to that.

[MojoHerps]

Yup lift the whole kit and kaboodle and put it on damp paper towel in a separate container.

You might be learning the hard way that not all hatchlings make it and we often can not help.

[Snakefood]

Alright, went back to transfer entire "package", it had already pulled away from the placenta, breaking the cord by itself.

Since the cord was no longer in the way, I was able to "untie" him, but right where the knot was, there is now a bulge and it seems that there is no movement below where the knot was. I don't know if there is a hemmorage or not, here are the best pics I can get of that area.

ok, the pics are too big for this forum, even after cropping. Joanna, can you PM me your e-mail addy so I can send them to you??:sad:

[shaunyboy]

as mojoherp said NOT all hatchlings make it mate

it may well have kinked/fused spine and be stuck in it's present shape,imo you will find out over the next few days

imo,if this is the case,then it needs euthanized

if you could post clearer pictures,it would give us all a better idea of what your dealing with

re umbilical cord
do NOT cut it,IF a snake needs help with the cord,imo it's best you tie it,it will drop off that way

cheers shaun

[jaleely]

wow. haven't seen this yet. How's it going? More pictures would be great, at least for the learning experience it provides for us. It's facinating, even if sometimes it's "not cool" you know? lol
I hope he's okay. I hope he survives! I wish i knew what you meant by knotted. Better pictures would help.

[shaunyboy]

I wish i knew what you meant by knotted. Better pictures would help.

Jaleely,if you look at the 2nd picture down,you can see it's " literally " tied in the first stage,of the type of knot,you would use to tie your shoe laces with


cheers shaun

[Snakefood]

yup, grab a piece of string, and tie it in a single knot, and that's what I mean by "knotted".

he has already separated himself from the umbilical cord, and I was able to "untie" him. there is some reddish coloring around where umbilical comes from the body, but no real hemmoraging (as in "insides hanging out"), however, there is also no voluntary movement from where the knot was to the tail, so the baby is moving itself around by it's front 1/3 and dragging the last 1/3.

if movement does not come back then I will probably have to euthanise as it's vent is in the "paralysed" portion of the body.

Really sucks though, I know you lose some, but this being my first clutch, I was hoping they would all come out ok.

[shaunyboy]

[quote=Snakefood;737243]yup, grab a piece of string, and tie it in a single knot, and that's what I mean by "knotted".

he has already separated himself from the umbilical cord, and I was able to "untie" him. there is some reddish coloring around where umbilical comes from the body, but no real hemmoraging (as in "insides hanging out"), however, there is also no voluntary movement from where the knot was to the tail, so the baby is moving itself around by it's front 1/3 and dragging the last 1/3.

if movement does not come back then I will probably have to euthanise as it's vent is in the "paralysed" portion of the body.

Really sucks though, I know you lose some, but this being my first clutch, I was hoping they would all come out ok.[/quote/]

^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
imo,you have a handle on things mate

i'm sorry to hear the bottom half of its body appears paralised,as said it may get full movement,if it doesn't,then i agree
it should be euthanized

[Snakefood]

I hope movement does come back, like a circulation thing. If it does, I will keep him/her as a pet only, maybe name it Knotty or something. LOL

but I don't want to get ahead of myself, we'll have to wait and see if it will get movement back.

I wonder how long to wait until I decide movement is not coming back??

BTW, I meant it has movement in the front 2/3 of it's body, and none in the rear 1/3

[MojoHerps]

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. I suspect the snake developed in the egg in that knot and that it's back third could not develop properly. It is likely it could not poop normally so would not survive. I think I have only seen this in hatchlings that never hatch on their own. I'd wait a few days to make a decision.

[Snakefood]

so if in a few days that portion of his body is not mobile, then it never will be and he won't be able to poop??

Therefore in the above stated scenario, euthanization would be in order??

he is really active otherwise, good movement in the front 2/3 of his body!!

[GarterPython]

What does euthanization mean? Does that mean killing it? I will probably breed in 2-3 years and want to know this stuff incase I ever have to do it.

[Snakefood]

yes, euthanization is defined as "ending a life as peacefully and non-painfully as possible"

[GarterPython]

^How do you do that?

[Snakefood]

many ways. with snakes it usually involves decapitation, crushing the head, or freezing (however, there is some debate on how humane freezing is with cold blooded creatures)

with mammals it involves a bullet in the head or overdosing with a barbituate such as euthanol

[jaleely]

I have terrible eyes. I just can't see it.
But.....
I don't envy your decision. It broke out of the egg early, suggesting a will to survive, but it just may not be possible for it to thrive.

I also don't understand the paralysis...if it had no control, wouldn't that just mean it freely would poop on it's own, rather than not be able to poop?

[BarelyBreathing]

I also don't understand the paralysis...if it had no control, wouldn't that just mean it freely would poop on it's own, rather than not be able to poop?

I thought the same thing...

[MojoHerps]

If the muscles in the bowel are paralyzed too then he will not be able to poop. You need more than gravity to pass stool and gravity doesn't help a snake anyway!

[Snakefood]

well he is still alive and seems acitive, but the last 1/3 of his body still is not moving, so I'll wait a couple more day to see.

the last 3 eggs haven't pipped, so I cut them all, So I guess it's a waiting game all around

[MojoHerps]

Did you see movement in the ones you cut?

[Snakefood]

I didn't check for movement. I only cut a small slit in each of the. I would have to cut a hole in them to check for movement, should I do that??

[Snakefood]

actually, I just went in and poked at them (poked at the side of the egg with my finger)

definate movement in 2 of the egss and I think the third had movement too, but not as obvious as the first 2

[MojoHerps]

You can cut a whole in the top but it sounds like they are alive. I have to admit it is odd that they have not pipped on their own yet.

[Snakefood]

I know, the longest hatch time for a clutch I've ever heard of!!

I guess they'll come out when they are good and ready to!!

[jaleely]

They're happy and warm and spoiled already! lol

Aww poor knotty snake...

I suppose parallsis of the muscles doesn't mean relaxation...which i thought it did i guess.

[Snakefood]

:sad: well, I took my hatchlings to a fellow breeder to help me sex them and showed her this little fellow, she said there is no way he's gonna make it and I'll have to euthanize it. So we're gonna do it tonight.

Poor little guy:sad:

[jaleely]

: ( : ( : (
I'm sorry...at least it won't suffer. aww.... man.

[alessia55]

Well, at least the little guy won't be struggling to survive anymore. Some just aren't equipped to make it. It's the circle of life...
Hope it wasn't too hard to let go...

[Snakefood]

thx for sympathizing, it does suck. But I can't tolerate suffering in any animal and she said it looks like necrosis is already setting in, so we just couldn't wait any longer.

[kernel]

I'm so sorry to hear about this. It happens to every breeder, it's just something us first time breeders don't want to experience our first time.

[Snakefood]

I'm so sorry to hear about this. It happens to every breeder, it's just something us first time breeders don't want to experience our first time.

Amen to that, but my past carreer as an AHT (vet tech) prepared me for it, and I can say that I know I saved him a very painful death by ending his life quickly and mercifully.

it's still sad though:no:

[shaunyboy]

:sad: well, I took my hatchlings to a fellow breeder to help me sex them and showed her this little fellow, she said there is no way he's gonna make it and I'll have to euthanize it. So we're gonna do it tonight.

Poor little guy:sad:

sorry to hear that the hatchling remained paralysed,i was hoping it was going to sort itself out

imo you are definitely doing the right thing,by euthanizing it yourself mate.....

imo for as unpleasant as it is,doing it yourself is much less stressful than a trip to the vet,followed by a much longer procedure

all the best shaun

[Snakefood]

thx Shaun, taking it to the vet would have meant waiting even longer, if Rebecca was right and necrosis had already set in, then that would have meant leaving him in pain until we got to the vet. it wasn't worth letting him suffer, so we did it ourselves.

[kernel]

Amen to that, but my past carreer as an AHT (vet tech) prepared me for it, and I can say that I know I saved him a very painful death by ending his life quickly and mercifully.

it's still sad though:no:

If you don't mind me asking, how did you do it? I'm prepared to do what I have to do, but I just don't know what the best way would be.

[Snakefood]

my breeder friend gave me the option of decapitation or crushing the skull, we chose to crush the skull, destroying the brain instantly, I thought that would be the fastest, surest method.

[shaunyboy]

my breeder friend gave me the option of decapitation or crushing the skull, we chose to crush the skull, destroying the brain instantly, I thought that would be the fastest, surest method.

DO NOT DECAPITATE as there will be pain involved

one fast hard blow to the head,with a lump hammer,is imo the quickest PAIN FREE way to euthanize

full cranial destruction occurs,before any pain has time to register

cheers shaun

[mekayp]

This whole story makes me tear up, I'm so sorry you had to go through this. Poor little knotty!

[kernel]

my breeder friend gave me the option of decapitation or crushing the skull, we chose to crush the skull, destroying the brain instantly, I thought that would be the fastest, surest method.

DO NOT DECAPITATE as there will be pain involved

one fast hard blow to the head,with a lump hammer,is imo the quickest PAIN FREE way to euthanize

full cranial destruction occurs,before any pain has time to register

cheers shaun

That does sound like the best way, I just hope I won't have to do it any time soon.

[Snakefood]

I won't lie, it really sucked to have to do that. especially to one out of my very first clutch.

But then again, when my old man's (doggie) time comes, that will suck too, but it won't stay my hand as I won't let him suffer, I love him too much

[Lankyrob]

I found it harder to euthanize animals for eating than i do euthanizing a pet, with a pet your love for them and not seeing them in pain makes it easy.