egg question

[jhiggy69]

first time with eggs.....whats the best ways of determining if kingsnake eggs are fertile or infertile ???? my king snake "freeway just laid 7 yesterday ....all look the same ,no odd lumps ,discolored areas,seem "firm"....

[Terranaut]

Are they white? If they are yellow they are most likely slugs. Best way to check is to "candle" them. Put a bright light behind them in a dark room and look through the egg. Should be visible viens inside. If just fluid they are slugs.

[jhiggy69]

ok......it looks like 3 are good ...other four cant see anything but cant be sure til i get better light ....but all seven now have slight indentations on top sides ??????

[MojoHerps]

If they are indenting then there is not enough moisture for them. It may also be too early to see blood vessels in all the eggs. I'd recheck in a week.

[jhiggy69]

humidity is at over 80 % and temp is 74 to 80 ........how humid does it need to b?

[MojoHerps]

I've never measured humidity. I just like seeing condensation on the sides of the container or top.

What are you using to incubate?

[Snakefood]

my humidity is closer to 90% or more

[jhiggy69]

im using a small tupperware box w/vermiculite and 4 small holes in the top ....its siiting inside a old aquarium thts heated to 80 * f. with a therm. inside the box

[Terranaut]

Holes in the top vent all the humidity out put a small hole in the side just above the material in the egg box. My humidity was 90%+ and one of my eggs was still slightly indented. Although they are not accurate putting a cheap dial type hygrometer right in the egg box will let you know if the humidity has any sudden changes.
Good luck. Exciting times!!

[shaunyboy]

ok......it looks like 3 are good ...other four cant see anything but cant be sure til i get better light ....but all seven now have slight indentations on top sides ??????

it is VERY important the eggs remain upright once placed in the incubating medium...!!

MARK THE TOP OF THE EGGS,with a marker pen,so you know to keep them upright at all times.....!!!

if you turn an egg it is possible for a snake to drown inside it.....

Reptile eggs do NOT have chalaze

re chalaze
chalaze is the fibrous ligament that suspends the yolk in the centre of the albumen.which always returns the EMBRYO to it's original position,when the egg changes position

bird eggs can be turned regularly during incubation.....

REPTILE EGGS SHOULD NOT BE TURNED,AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN PLACED IN THE EGG BOX

i hope it all goes according to plan for you mate

cheers shaun

[MojoHerps]

I would cover the holes with tape so that the humidity stays in. The vermiculite should be just moist. You could take moss, make it wet, wring it out well and put that on top of the eggs to help hydrate them.

As to drowning the snakes, I am not a believer in that. Someone for another site took eggs and purposely turned them and the eggs hatched out fine. They do not breath in the egg like they do once they are out so they really can't drown.

[Snakefood]

I incubated fully in moss, over and under eggs. I sprayed the moss once/day and had no indents in the eggs at all, so far even no indents right up to pipping!!

[Brently]

I don't believe that the embryo's actually drown. I am pretty sure that if the vein has attached itself to the wall, then turning the egg can result in the vein breaking and thus causing death of the embryo. Again I am not an expert but I think that is how it works. So there is nothing saying that turning an egg will kill them but it is a possibility that is why it is recommended against.

[MojoHerps]

Here's the info I was referring to Egg-turning experiment. - The Source (http://tinyurl.com/24jmjjt)

[shaunyboy]

As to drowning the snakes, I am not a believer in that. Someone for another site took eggs and purposely turned them and the eggs hatched out fine. They do not breath in the egg like they do once they are out so they really can't drown.

the information on snake eggs and the reasons they must not be turned is taken from.....

Keeping and Breeding Australian Pythons,edited by Mike Swan

pretty much regarded as one of the best morelia books out there

most morelia keepers,would say the following books are in the top 3 ever written.so i trust Mike Swans information and reasons,in regards to NOT turning eggs

Pythons of the World Volume 1,Australia,by Dave & Tracey barker

Keeping and Breeding Australian Pythons,edited by Mike Swan

The Complete Carpet python,by Nick Mutton & Jason Jullander

maybe i should have wrote,some snakes may well survive egg turning,but due to the lack of chalazae,yolk is not attatched to the egg

when a snake lays eggs.....

the YOLK sinks to the bottom and the embryo floats to the top of the egg,where it ATTATCHES

^^^^^
the above reason,is why i do not reccommend turning eggs

re your link
i agree with the guy in the link,that in the 1 clutch he experimented on the results were good,personally though for peace of mind i would not turn them





KevinS on that link made some valid points,i have pasted them in below.....

According to Kohler's Incubation of Reptile Eggs, changing the position of eggs has the greatest effect during the first third of the incubation period. He cites 10 articles to support this claim. He also says:

""Since the yolk has a greater specific gravity than the cytoplasm, the yolk of the freshly laid egg sinks to the bottom and the embryo floats to the top of the egg (Bellairs, 1991).

The attachment of the reptile embryo marks an important step in the development, since this leads to a drying of the eggshell directly above the embryo. This increases the gas permeability of the eggshell and protects the embryo from lack of oxygen (Thompson, 1985; Whitehead, 1987). If the reptile egg is turned upside down, the embryo ends up underneath the yolk and is trapped there because of its adhesion to the inner shell membrane. The large bulk of the yolk on the embryo prevents normal development and can lead to deformities or death (Eweart, 1985; Ferguson, 1985).

Furthermore, turning of the egg causes the yolk to move, which can tear the extra-embryonic membranes; the allantois is especially sensitive in this respect (Ferguson, 1985; Thompson, 1985; Webb et al, 1987a, b)."

He also says that the extra-embryonic membranes are fully developed after the first third of incubation and their attachment to the egg membrane is so firm that they are unaffected by shearing forces. Just some food for thought while we're on the subject.

^^^^^
the above is acredited to KevinS in the link

cheers shaun

[MojoHerps]

I agree that some very good points were made and that many reptile breeders feel that turning the eggs is bad. The book KevinS quotes gives citations but I don't know that those citations refer to actual experimental data or hypothesis ( what's the plural of hypothesis?).

I am not recommending turning the eggs but I am not sure putting a mark on the top is necessary either. How do we know the eggs haven't already been rolled around by Mom prior to us even finding them? We may then have marked the wrong side!

I guess one year I should take a clutch and incubate half right side up and half turned over and see if there is a difference in hatch rates or deformities. I could then add to Chuck's (Serpwidget's) data.

[Snakefood]

I didn't mark them at all. I just placed them in the incubator with the same side up as I found them with mom and left them like that. it is really quite easy to pick them up, candle them, and put them back with out turning them around!!

[jhiggy69]

thanks for the info.......now how long should iwait to look for veins in the eggs again,

[Snakefood]

I candled mine once/week throughout the whole incubation

[shaunyboy]

I agree that some very good points were made and that many reptile breeders feel that turning the eggs is bad. The book KevinS quotes gives citations but I don't know that those citations refer to actual experimental data or hypothesis ( what's the plural of hypothesis?).

I am not recommending turning the eggs but I am not sure putting a mark on the top is necessary either. How do we know the eggs haven't already been rolled around by Mom prior to us even finding them? We may then have marked the wrong side!

I guess one year I should take a clutch and incubate half right side up and half turned over and see if there is a difference in hatch rates or deformities. I could then add to Chuck's (Serpwidget's) data.


your asking the wrong person re plural of hypothesis mate (spelling is NOT my strong point:laugh:)

re the mother moving eggs
i'm thinking that in the early stages,the embryo has not attached itself to the top of the egg yet.so is not as important at this stage

most people take the eggs away from the dam,as soon as she has finished laying

then they are placed in a tub until hatched,i think the further towards hatching they are,there would be more risk of problems,should they get turned

it will be interesting to see the results of your experiment,when the time comes

cheers shaun