Hognose venom "debate" over.

[jaleely]

Well at least it is for me! Other sites there are many people who are firmly one one side of the fence or the other as to if hognoses are venomous or not. I know my first experience with a bite, there was only a small localized reaction, and benadryl seemed to help. So, I was still unsure as to if it was venom, or from the snake's saliva.
There was another post on here recently, where the issue was brought up again, and it was made a little clearer that they do have primative venom glands.
I have to say, after last night...I agree. Benadryl is NOT working this time.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/1.jpg

Right after the bite.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/3-1.jpg
an hour later

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/2-1.jpg
today. As you can see, since i was bitten at about 11 pm last night...there is a pretty serious reaction! Numbness, and soreness are from the swelling. And there is a LOT of swelling...it is the tightest swelling i've ever had. Man it hurts!!
Radiating all the way around the hand, mostly on the back, but now reaching the wrist. It will have been about 24 hours later once i painstakingly type this and get it posted *lol*

So, all i was doing was cleaning out his cage. I usually hold him in the palm of my hand. He chills out, no big deal. Yesterday, i got my new garter snakes and had cut up some fish for them. I realized too late, after his bite, that my hands still faintly smelled of fish. He just sat there until i was done with his tank, and then just...ate me! lol and HARD not striking, just next thing i knew i was being bitten. He would NOT let go. I held him under water....he wasn't even wiggling. Finally my husband tried to drip some alcohol on his nose (i hated doing that)...that didn't really work either, so i tried the water again, and he finally losened. But then we realized his rear facing fangs were stuck, so we kind of had to push him off.
He's fine. Congealed blood and snake mouth slime everwhere. By the time he let go i was already swollen.

Later, i went and gave him a freshwater silverside fish. He gobbled it down *rolls eyes*

So, i am faced with this huge giant bubble of a hand. They sent me home from work today (i told them it was a bee sting...LOL) and I do have a doctor's appointment. Just one i needed anyway for a check up...maybe they can give me a shot.
Anyone know about this in regards as to what i can do for the swelling in the meantime? it's so huge and awkward. Really really tight and painful. I honestly think it's getting bigger, too, still.
Compression? I'm taking some benadryl anyway, i don't really know what else to do!

[buffcoat]

Let me first say, that totally looks like it hurts! Call me Captain Obvious. Second, you can try an ice pack to keep the swelling down. I've read with other venomous snakes that if you slow the blood flow down it will buy you enough time. Looks like you are having a bad reaction. It actually looks like I di when I get stung by some stinging critter.

I hope yer Dr. knows what to do better than I. I asked my sister who's a nurse and she's never heard of anyone coming in with a hognose bite. She did say put an icepack to slow the blood flow and reduce swelling and get to a Dr. immediately.

[Terranaut]

I cant believe booze did not work. You did use straight up hard liquor right?
I mean dumping a bit if wine on him wouldn't be the same as rum on the nose.
Even my king who won't stop for anything else even ice lets go instantly with booze on the nose.
Anyway. Sorry you got schooled by your hoggie but thanks for sharing.

[jaleely]

i think i will go with some ice and a nap, for now lol

we used rubbing alcohol...but regardless, the problem was also he had his fangs in too well, and he was stuck...he figured the solution was to swallow me lol

it's so annoying too because he had been refusing food, and going into shed...havent seen the eyes change, but he's well overdue, and wanted nothing to do with food. i had to take him all the way out to disinfect, and he usually just sits there nicely. apparently fish smell is irresistible. you'd have thought i learned he has a great nose, after he bit my thumb when he smelled frog on it. i didn't think he'd go for FISH!
ugh. and to think this is the snake i couldn't get to eat for months when i first got him!
ok hard to type now : )

[alessia55]

Geez, in that photo that's comparing your hands.... :eek: !!!!! OUCH!

[bladeblaster]

whether it is administered in the saliva or not does not make it any less venom. Colubrids that do not have hollow fangs secrete venom through the saliva glands, doesn;t make it not venom

[Lankyrob]

Dont know how things have changed as it has been about ten years since my first aid training but we were told not to compress a swelling that is due to poisoning ( am guessing the same for envenomation?) as it will force the poison (venom) further away from the injection point and cause further damage.

Personally with swelling that bad i would be at the ER getting it checked before you lose any circulation or get any tissue damage.

[jaleely]

hasnt occurred to me to go to the er...i'd be worried about the cost. my husband is already mad they sent me home from work lol
plus i don't want to make the hobby look bad.
but you do what you gotta do sometimes. i did get a regular doc appointment for a few hours from now.

i hope there isn't any damage! and i won't compress then...it's just sooo tight! i'll ice until i get to the docs :)

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

Im trying to understand where the debate is...?

Hognose snakes are Opisthoglyphous, and produce modified saliva (venom).

[Lankyrob]

I hate to be the negative one but the "cost" could be much worse than monetary if it isnt checked out and you do start losing circulation :(

[StudentoReptile]

Im trying to understand where the debate is...?

Hognose snakes are Opisthoglyphous, and produce modified saliva (venom).

Apparently, a LOT of people have trouble with this concept!

[brandonh]

you cold also try Ibuprofen it helps somewhat keep swelling down

[jarich]

I don't think ibuprofen is a good idea. Your liver and kidneys are already going to be working overtime with the envenomation. Ibuprofen will tax them further. I would think a bucket of ice water and your doctors appointment are best

[Aaron_S]

Im trying to understand where the debate is...?

Hognose snakes are Opisthoglyphous, and produce modified saliva (venom).

It's due to the fact a lot of people don't take rear fanged snakes seriously. They said the same thing about boomslangs until someone died. They said the same thing about vine snakes, until someone died. A hognose WILL kill someone and then they'll be venomous.

people don't want to believe it's "more than a bee sting."

Melissa, I hope for the best and your hand. Benedryl isn't working because you've already used it once. In general, venoms get used to their counter part quite frequently with snakes and thus the antivenim usually doesn't work or the person becomes allergic to it.

[jaleely]

Too true Aaron. I want to say i take them seriously, but obviously I allow myself a false sense of security since they are usually so docile. My one male has never even acted upset...however this male is a very feisty baby, who should be handled more seriously. I just didn't think. I really didn't think he'd care that i couldn't get the fish smell off of my hands *lol*
That's twice i've underestimated him. Completely my fault and I admit it!
It's too easy to get in the mindset that he's a cute silly little critter....which he is, but he is a critter with instinct and should be respected as such.

What does this mean "venoms get used to their counter part quite frequently"? lol
I just mean explain that further for me.

Honestly, the reason i posted the title the way i did is because MANY people, me included scoff the idea that these snakes can cause harm. I didn't really scoff, but i was unsure about the reaction, i should say.

My swollen hand that' now reached past my wrist begs to differ *lol*

[Aaron_S]

Too true Aaron. I want to say i take them seriously, but obviously I allow myself a false sense of security since they are usually so docile. My one male has never even acted upset...however this male is a very feisty baby, who should be handled more seriously. I just didn't think. I really didn't think he'd care that i couldn't get the fish smell off of my hands *lol*
That's twice i've underestimated him. Completely my fault and I admit it!
It's too easy to get in the mindset that he's a cute silly little critter....which he is, but he is a critter with instinct and should be respected as such.

What does this mean "venoms get used to their counter part quite frequently"? lol
I just mean explain that further for me.

Honestly, the reason i posted the title the way i did is because MANY people, me included scoff the idea that these snakes can cause harm. I didn't really scoff, but i was unsure about the reaction, i should say.

My swollen hand that' now reached past my wrist begs to differ *lol*

First off, I didn't mean my post was directed to you about the seriousness part. I guess after I re-read it that you'd be included to.

I don't like ever reaching in and grabbing a snake like a hognose bare handed for the reason you now know first hand. There's a member here who had one or two who were super hissy and puffy but I would never barehand grab them. It's not worth the risk of injury or any single finger.

What I meant by that is that venoms will grow stronger against antivenoms. Which are their counter. Sometimes it takes a vial or two (usually a dozen) to save a life and if that person doesn't grow allergic to the antivenom and they get bit again they will usually take twice as many vials or more to help out.

I hope you're swelling goes down soon. If it progresses I fear the ER will have to cut you to help relieve the pressure. Hopefully it goes down soon.

[SAW]

Hi, to interested members of this stimulating forum.
I am new here and am one of the clinical toxinologists/herpetologists involved with the Women’s and Children’s Hospital clinical toxinology website (toxinology.com). I am compelled to offer readers here information re this discussion of hognose snake bites/“venom”, and that of other non-front-fanged colubroids. I was informed of this apparently ongoing discussion earlier today, and after reviewing the string, am glad to see a lively and thoughtful discussion of the subject, but dismayed to see repeated misinterpretations of both toxinology and clinical medicine. Although I have limited time, and comprehensive discussion could take a great deal of time, I will very briefly comment on some of what is posted here.
First, some of the basis of my reply is refelected in terminology. The reason why species such as the false-water cobra, Hydrodynastes gigas, hognose snakes, Heterodon spp., and a number of others are termed “nonvenomous” on our web site, and in most of my publications (and those of some other investigators) is because they do not meet the traditional criteria for having “venom” in that the biological function of their oral secretions (Duvernoy’s secretions) are not verified. It is unfortunate and biomedically incorrect to interpret toxins present in an oral secretion as a “venom” without having solid observational field and/or laboratory evidence of their use in subjugating, or possibly, digesting prey and/or in anti-predator functions. It is unfortunate that the term, "venom", is increasingly used as an indicator only of toxin presence. The traditional definition of venom is: a complex substance produced in a specialized gland and delivered by an associated specialized apparatus that is deleterious to other organisms in a given dosage and is actively used in the subjugation and/or digestion of prey and/or in defense (Minton, 1974; Minton and Minton, 1980; Russell, 1980; Mebs, 2002). This cannot be determined through conjecture. Only a handful of non-front-fanged colubroids such as the ringneck snakes (Diadophis punctatus ssp.) have had formal verification of their use of Duvernoy's secretions in subjugation/tranquliization of prey. Of course, Diadophis punctatus ssp. have no medical importance. This is why I have proposed the term, "prey-specific venom" (in the case of Diadophis, ophidian-specific) in our new book (see ahead) when discussing some of these taxa. Of course, dispholidines such as the boomslang, Dispholidus typus and twig, vine or bird snakes, Thelotornis spp. have venoms that clearly are used in prey capture and are also secondarily medically important (as is the case with a relatively small number of other species as well).
In the traditional consensus view, and this is currently under animated debate between investigators including me, just because an oral secretion is made in a specific gland, has associated teeth and produces a clinical effect does NOT mean that it is a “venom”. Again, unless there is a universally accepted change in the consensus definition of venom, biological function, how it is used, is a crucial defining factor. Therefore, clinical effects should not be a primary defining contributor; only a secondary consideration to be considered in relation with the primary criterion. As a very brief example: the human salivary proteome is comprised of well over 300 proteins; this includes many biologically-active components including toxins, and is too extensive a sub-topic to describe here. I can assure you as a physician who has treated many such bites, and as many readers probably know, there are few animal bites worse than that inflicted by a human. Only bites from rabid animals, felines with the pathogenic Gram negative bacterium, Pasteurella multocida, as well as large canines, megapredators (great cats, bears, etc) and non-human primates (that may have several viruses potentially fatal to humans) are worse. Human saliva is toxic when injected into experimental animals (thus, there is a toxic as well as septic effect), produced in salivary glands that may differ in secretion flow characteristics as measured by planar MRI (sub-mandibular vs parotid), and there is salivary flow around modified dentition (incisors). We do not use our buccal secretions in subduing prey, but we do partly pre-digest our food, and we don’t use them in defense (well, most of us don’t anyway…). Are we venomous? No.
I don’t have any time to detail the misinterpretations of atopy (allergy) that have been posted here. However, the first exposure to an allergen absolutely can produce an effect, and this is why allergic tendencies are likely inherited. The initial effect is far milder than repeated exposures as this is how mnemonic (memory cells) cell populations are generated that function as antigen-presenting cells and subsequently release autopharmacological substances such as histamine, vasoactive peptide, slow-reacting substance of anaphylaxis, heparin, etc all which cause allergic responses (that can include dermatopathology such as blistering, some “discolouration” [e.g. erythema] and exfoliating dermatitis as well as well-known constitutional and life-threatening signs/symptoms including: hypotensive shock, laryngospasm, lingual angioedema, etc) the severity of which are dependent on the nature of the allergen, the host response, degree of prior sensitization, etc. Patients with similar sensitization often show similar manifestations that may differ in severity and progression depending on the nature and site of exposure. Some substances (e.g. n-acetylcysteine) produce severe hypersensitivity response without any prior exposure. The mechanisms for this are unclear. In addition, the oft made comparison with bee venom allergy is a somewhat inappropriate example of this as honeybee, Apis mellifera, and bumblebee, Bombus bombus, venoms contain mast cell degranulating peptides. These venom components can directly cause mast cell degranulation, e.g. anaphylaxis, without any IgE cross-linkage. Meaning, although one commonly can develop life-threatening bee venom allergy with repeated exposure, one can also have an anaphylactic response of varying severity without a prior sting. More to the specific relevant point here, in 15 years treating snakebites, I have never seen a life-threatening anaphylactic response to Heterodon nasicus Duvernoy’s secretion. Of course, how often is anyone exposed to Heterodon spp. Duvernoy’s secretions? However, sensitization can occur via exposure to shed skins and snake products (through routine captive husbandry) as well as from exposure to buccal secretions/venoms. Dan Keyler and I recently reported a case of protracted H. nasicus bite that almost certainly included local hypersensitivity (=stimulation of the immune system) in addition to the likely local action of Duvernoy’s secretion components (probably proteases; Weinstein and Keyler, 2009). The extent of possible allergy to Duvernoy’s components is almost fully unknown and must be cautiously considered as more serious effects could conceivably occur (but are unlikely), whereas acquired venom allergy is well-known and has contributed to a number of serious and fatal cases (especially involving elapids). I also recommend that one should read with great caution reported “medical effects” of snakebites of any kind that are written or posted on the internet by non-medically qualified authors. These are often replete with misinterpretations due to unfamiliarity with such pathology and in comparison to individual responses to purely physical trauma. Also, many such effects described in the non-front-fanged colubroid literature are anecdotal, and are perpetuated in the literature without verification by a clinician.

Unfortunately, I have taken far too much time in writing this, and thus, I cannot address the specifics of Heterodon functional morphology (not "inefficient" or "poor" delivery; likely, adapted for a different function in comparison to the high pressure front-fanged venom apparatus). In a terse nutshell: lacking from the literature is convincing formal and repeated verification of active use of Duvernoy’s secretion by wild and captive Heterodon in subjugating/tranqulizing/pre-digesting prey. None of the 4 species aggressively bite, and the uncommon documented bites have occured almost wholly as a consequence of feeding behavior. As those reading assuredly know, Heterodon spp. expends a great deal of energy in self-defense by performing some very entertaining displays of death sham, neck-flattening, mock striking, etc, but not in biting (e.g. not by using Duvernoy’s secretion defensively). This is where I will make a shameless and blatant plug for our new book as this is the first comprehensive treatment of the topic, and includes substantial discussion of Heterodon ("'Venomous' Bites From Non-Venomous Snakes: A Critical Analysis of Risk and Management of "Colubrid" Snake Bites", with my co-authors David A. Warrell, Julian White and Daniel E. Keyler). I must add that any interested party should probably obtain the e-book (as it was intended; however, it is a bit more expensive than the print version) as this contains many colour photos (>300), an excellent search function, and aside from a few poorly reproduced osteology photos, is a good book per this fascinating topic. Interested readers can check out a sample at elsevierdirect.com or in the kindle version on amazon (also in colour). The print version is in black and white and lacks an index (this because it was intended first as a digital product), but is still contains all of the information and is a nice book (I am a bit subjective here in case you hadn't noticed...).

Finally, please note that I am not responding in order to “convince” anyone to change their “beliefs”. Rather, I have written this to make interested readers aware that there is another considered consensus view in this less-traveled area of biomedical and life science research and this is reflected in the use of differing terminology.

I must add that although as most physicians, including myself, do not give medical advice without seeing a patient in person, I will suggest the following (see below) re Jaleely's recent Heterodon bite. This is not to be misconstrued as direct medical advice due to the aforementioned need for physical examination in order to appropriately guide management.

NEVER apply ice to any snakebite or spiderbite, etc. Scorpion stings are another story. Again, the reaction to the bite MAY be a combination of Type I hypersensitivity AND specific effects of the Duvernoy's secretion. PROMPT review by a physician is strongly advised and treatment is limited to symptomatic management. By the way, the antihistamine response to H1 antagonists (first generation antihistamines) such as benadryl (diphenhydramine) doesn't diminish with repeated use in a case of Type 1 hypersensitivity. It's "off label" use as a sleep inducer can produce tolerance of that specific effect; not when it is used [U]episodically[U] in such a case of hypersensitivity, However, it may not be sufficient to treat some cases and other therapeutics may be indicated such as steroids, adrenaline, leukotriene receptor antagonistsm, etc. There is NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER here for any need of fasciotomy and they will not "cut you" to relieve the pressure. This is why prompt review is recommended as the earlier some of the above treatments are initiated, the more likely a shorter duration of some of the symptoms. I hope it improves rapidly and if you require wound care, follow the recommendations of the attending physician(s) carefully.
Hope this was somewhat informative.


Scott A. Weinstein, MSc, PhD, MBBS, MD
Clinical Toxinologist/Attending Physician
Women’s and Children’s Hospital
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
And
Attending Physician/Clinical Toxinology Consultant
Bayside, New York USA

[brandonh]

I don't think ibuprofen is a good idea. Your liver and kidneys are already going to be working overtime with the envenomation. Ibuprofen will tax them further. I would think a bucket of ice water and your doctors appointment are best

thank you for your post i didnt think of about the liver or kidneys that are aready clearing the toxins out of the body good call

[shaunyboy]

over on the other hognose bite thread,greg m posted links,to scientific papers, prooving hognose are venomous

cheers shaun

[RandyRhoads]

Didn't feel like reading that entire post. SRS-A popped in my head in regards to the benadryl. Too tired to play DR. and i'm sure that guy did enough but browse through info on it if you're bored.
[Mediators of the aller... [Allergol Immunopathol (Madr). 1975 Jul-Aug] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5879)

Don't compress it.... I'd still take the Ibuprofen or aspirin despite the "envenomation" but i'm no toxicologist....

[jaleely]

Aaron that makes sense. Oh and no worries i didn't think you were saying i personally didn't take them seriously, or maybe i did, either way i wasn't offended or anything and in all truth it's just a fact that i need to be more aware when i handle that little hungry brat *lol*

I was already on an ibuprofin regimen for some joint issues. I read that post about that though and cut it down to half while i am still swollen...hurts all the way up my arm though from the swelling!

The tips of a couple of my fingers are gaining sensation again though!

Saw: That was a LOT of text. lol Maybe a short summary is in order. It was indeed a feeding response and hognose do not normally bite, as they would rather play dead and run away.
They do have the Duvernoy gland, but it is not used for defense, as you stated.

[Gregg M]

Jaleely,
There is nothing at all you can do for the swelling. No doctor visit or shot will help you out. The best a doctor can do is treat you to prevent infection. It will go down on its own over the next week. To me, that is not a serious bite. Then again, you are talking to someone who keeps real venomous snakes. LOL.

Seriously though, this is nothing to worry about.

I have yet to have a reaction like that to a hognose bite. I usually get them off within seconds.

You have very nice hands by the way. LOL

[BarelyBreathing]

Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bladeblaster]

It's due to the fact a lot of people don't take rear fanged snakes seriously. They said the same thing about boomslangs until someone died. They said the same thing about vine snakes, until someone died. A hognose WILL kill someone and then they'll be venomous.

people don't want to believe it's "more than a bee sting."

Melissa, I hope for the best and your hand. Benedryl isn't working because you've already used it once. In general, venoms get used to their counter part quite frequently with snakes and thus the antivenim usually doesn't work or the person becomes allergic to it.


Couldn't agree more, the amount of people who insist on free handling mangroves and FWC's is frankly rediculous.

[Terranaut]

To Saw
I totaly love what you have written here. One of the most complete explanations of anything ever asked on this site that I have read so far. I am sure the OP took a ton of knowledge away from this. I do hope anyone thinking of keeping these reads this to understand what they have and what they should do in this situation. Given the length of your post and the fact that some others have already said they did not read the entire thing I have decided to summarize in short.
1: not venomous technically but venomous with a nasty bite if it happens.
2: you will be ok unless you have a major reaction to the toxins
3: take steps in handling to not allow this to happen due to #1
4: (now this is my own $.02) get that sucker off ASAP!!!!

Another thing is wash your hands before handling. I have to do this with my king as he will pull the same manuver and try to eat your hand if he smells prey which includes any other snake you held that day.

Thanks to both the OP for sharing her hard lesson in hog snake handling and to Saw for his PHD level post :)

[bladeblaster]

To Saw
I totaly love what you have written here. One of the most complete explanations of anything ever asked on this site that I have read so far. I am sure the OP took a ton of knowledge away from this. I do hope anyone thinking of keeping these reads this to understand what they have and what they should do in this situation. Given the length of your post and the fact that some others have already said they did not read the entire thing I have decided to summarize in short.
1: not venomous technically but venomous with a nasty bite if it happens.
2: you will be ok unless you have a major reaction to the toxins
3: take steps in handling to not allow this to happen due to #1
4: (now this is my own $.02) get that sucker off ASAP!!!!

Another thing is wash your hands before handling. I have to do this with my king as he will pull the same manuver and try to eat your hand if he smells prey which includes any other snake you held that day.

Thanks to both the OP for sharing her hard lesson in hog snake handling and to Saw for his PHD level post :)

All he has really written amounts to.

I don't think is really a venom although it is clearly toxic, some other scientists think it is a venom, and we haven't done bitching about it yet.

I think he has a Phd in 'Long winded explanations'

Its scemantics.

[Will0W783]

To Jaleely- OUCH that looks awful...I hope you recover quickly and you don't get bitten again!

To Saw- THANK YOU for that awesome explanation...btw, I LOVE Toxinology.com and actually have printouts of the species accounts/antivenin list/bite treatment in my Hots Folder for every species I keep. I have found your website to be perhaps the nicest, easiest and most complete source of venomous snakebite care protocols I have yet found! Keep up the good work!

[StudentoReptile]

Couldn't agree more, the amount of people who insist on free handling mangroves and FWC's is frankly rediculous.

Ditto. I've seen photos and videos of people free-handling hots. Venomous species can be just as "docile" as a non-venomous snake. The thing is, even docile snakes have their bad days. When a ball python or corn snake has a "bad day" or wakes on the wrong side of the water bowl, its no big deal. If your normally placid cobra or viper has a "bad day," it IS a big deal. The risks and consequences are just SOOOO much greater, which is why (obviously) it is not suggested to handle hots...excpet with hooks or tongs, and similar equipment.

We're beginning to realize (as jaleely as demonstrated in this thread) that rear-fanged colubrids should be treated with a little more respect than previously given.

[red ink]

@Saw

A lot to digest and I thank you for taking the time and writing this... very informative.

[Will0W783]

@ StudentoReptile....I too have seen too many videos of people taking chances with their hots. I do handle my hognose...he hasn't bitten me yet, but I'm careful to wash my hands immediately before and maybe now I will treat him even more carefully!

I saw a video of a guy holding a Wagler's viper and shedding it by hand. Geez...I mean, they are insanely docile snakes usually, but any snake can get cranky when you're pulling shed off of it! I use the gloves and hooks to handle mine, even though I could probably get away with not being tagged. Why take the risk? It could be the last one you'll ever take.

I've also seen Viperkeeper (who I've met and generally like) pet his black spitting cobra in a Youtube video...that really peeved me off...it is NEVER ok to pet a cobra. He was ticking it and laughing "tickle the black beast"....IMO that shouldn't be online, because other people are going to copy it not knowing their animals and end up dead! :(

[StudentoReptile]

@ StudentoReptile....I too have seen too many videos of people taking chances with their hots. I do handle my hognose...he hasn't bitten me yet, but I'm careful to wash my hands immediately before and maybe now I will treat him even more carefully!

Yeah, I hope I wasn't implying that people should never handle their western hogs. I don't think they're THAT dangerous. But in light of all that...er, well, has been brought to light (lol), those of us who do keep hognose might start exercising a tad more caution when opening the tub. I'll admit back when I had my little baby hogs, I was always a little tense around them, especially around feeding time...something I never felt around my kings, or my African house snakes, or ratsnakes. Even at that point, I had seen a few photos of what a western hog could do, so while I still handled them a lot, I was a LOT more careful getting them out of the tubs, and watching where their heads were at all times, etc.

I saw a video of a guy holding a Wagler's viper and shedding it by hand. Geez...I mean, they are insanely docile snakes usually, but any snake can get cranky when you're pulling shed off of it! I use the gloves and hooks to handle mine, even though I could probably get away with not being tagged. Why take the risk? It could be the last one you'll ever take.

I've also seen Viperkeeper (who I've met and generally like) pet his black spitting cobra in a Youtube video...that really peeved me off...it is NEVER ok to pet a cobra. He was ticking it and laughing "tickle the black beast"....IMO that shouldn't be online, because other people are going to copy it not knowing their animals and end up dead! :(

Yeah, there's some photo floating around the web right now of a green mamba drinking water from someone's hand. There's a part of us that is like, "Yeah, that's totally awesome, and bad***!" But reason has to kick in. That is playing with some deadly fire. Regardless of how experienced and acutely-aware of the risks a person may be, and absolutely trusting of the snake involved, thats the kind of behavior that I would not allow photos or videos of, because like you said, it gets spread like wildfire on the web and somewhere, someone else is going to try to replicate it...and fail.

[Gregg M]

To Saw
I totaly love what you have written here. One of the most complete explanations of anything ever asked on this site that I have read so far. I am sure the OP took a ton of knowledge away from this. I do hope anyone thinking of keeping these reads this to understand what they have and what they should do in this situation. Given the length of your post and the fact that some others have already said they did not read the entire thing I have decided to summarize in short.

The fact that there is a Phd at the end of a name does not mean the person is an expert on hognose venom or snakes, period. And SAW even admitted to not having the proper literature of the studies done on hognose venom.

However Dr, Bryan Grieg Fry has sampled hognose venom and concludes they are indeed venomous. What they deliver in a bite is NOT "toxic saliva". It has been proven that venom is not a modified saliva but something altogether different.

1: not venomous technically but venomous with a nasty bite if it happens.
How can something not be technically venomous but be venomous with a toxic bite? Makes no sense at all.

2: you will be ok unless you have a major reaction to the toxins
You will be ok even if you do have a reaction. You will not suffer any real reaction if you get it off your finger fast. You will not have a reaction if the rear fangs are not engaged during the bite. It is that simple.

3: take steps in handling to not allow this to happen due to #1
This should be done before or after handling any reptile.

4: (now this is my own $.02) get that sucker off ASAP!!!!
A hognose snakes rostral scale makes for a great pry point. Pull back on the rostral and roll your finger out. You get them off in seconds like that and it does not harm the snake.

[Terranaut]

Did you just honnestly call me out over a post that was obviously in jest??
Put down the mouse and step away from the keyboard. Everything will be ok. Although a lost sense of humour can be dangerous I think in your case you can find it again.
Seriously my summary was in fun. Not discussing the matter itself or debating the toxicology of hog oral secretions using published papers isn't something to stick someone over. Also rather than trying to knock Saw's post or point out any shortfallings should we appreciate the time it took to share this with us. It was his first fricken post man. Feel free to fill in the blanks but come on, can't we be more constructive?
Way to much negativity on here lately.

[Gregg M]

Did you just honnestly call me out over a post that was obviously in jest??
Put down the mouse and step away from the keyboard. Everything will be ok. Although a lost sense of humour can be dangerous I think in your case you can find it again.
Seriously my summary was in fun. Not discussing the matter itself or debating the toxicology of hog oral secretions using published papers isn't something to stick someone over. Also rather than trying to knock Saw's post or point out any shortfallings should we appreciate the time it took to share this with us. It was his first fricken post man. Feel free to fill in the blanks but come on, can't we be more constructive?
Way to much negativity on here lately.

Ooooops. LOL.
I did not know your post was in jest.

As far as SAWs post goes, I do not think that misinformation should be Ok because there is a Phd at the end of his name. Giving nformation without khowing the full scope, no matter how much time is put into it, is still wrong.

[Aaron_S]

Yeah, I hope I wasn't implying that people should never handle their western hogs. I don't think they're THAT dangerous...

Maybe it's just me but I see a lot of times hognoses suggested as beginner snakes and no one asks anyone's age. If Melissa had a reaction like this, and she's an adult, what could happen to a child who doesn't have the same size or immune system? They are THAT dangerous. Especially since they aren't handled with hooks or even worse, handled around children without a second thought.

Melissa, I'd hope it's getting better by now :)

[jaleely]

Hey guys...whew!
Okay, So i was going to address names but blah. lol I can type almost back up to speed today so instead i'm just going to ramble : )

As for the compliment on my hands...thank you! At least one looks decent anyway *lol*

Progress: The swelling has gone down, starting from where it started to swell. So in the first pic you see a shiney puffy red finger...and it started receeding from the tip of that finger. It is still swollen a *lot* on the back of my hand (inches away from the bite zone) and down past my wrist and almost to my elbow.
However, that initial bite finger is almost to normal. There is a little bit of damage to the tip of the finger in the capillaries, i think. It feels almost like a healing burn. Very strange.

But, no sign of infection and overall it is much better.

I did go to the doctor, on a routine visit, and had her look at the hand anyway. All they wanted to do was give me a tetanus shot.

When it first happened, i did try to ice it, just because the swelling was so tight it hurt. Felt a little better but of course didn't do any good.
I also did try to wrap the finger, gently...and i did find that that DID help. I slept with a lose wrap last night, and it protected the skin (which was tight and sensitive) from flopping around in the covers, and i feel helped with the swelling. Everywhere the wrap was, is lower...whereas on my arm it is the same size as yesterday.

I went to a low dose of ibuprofin, which i had been taking anyway for other issues. I've been trying to drink a lot of water to help flush toxins out, and hopefully be easier on my body. Hey we're bags of mostly water so water can't hurt : )

Lastly, I do admit i feel like a dunce. Both times this same snake has bitten me, it's been a feeding response. Seems to me I need to figure out how to wash my hands better or something. I had been handling our pyxie frog the first time, and he only bit me for about 60 seconds, and i held him in a water dish for a few seconds, and he hopped right off.

This time, i just could not get the fish smell off of my hands. I should say, i washed well, and then after the bite started smelling my hands and thought "yup, i think i can smell fish there".
I however, could NOT get him off of my finger. I thought he was biting for about five minutes, but my husband says it was closer to ten. I know this time the snake is twice the size as the first time, and DID get his rear fanges quite engaged. I did finally have to have the hubby push on the back of the snakes jaw/head and "roll" my finger out of his mouth to get him off.
He was totally fine....kept looking around trying to find where his meal went *rolls eyes*

Anyway, thought it was good to point out the roll technique that had been previously mentioned, to make fun of myself for not washing my hands well, and show that he was on there for a while...whereas normally i think they would just bite and let go.
He just happened to bite and sink in really well right away. He bit and his fangs were IN and already locked an curved into my flesh. Believe me, i wouldn't have let him chew that long on purpose. I was shouting the whole time *lol*

Also, the doctor had no clue what to do whatsoever. I got more information here than at her office. I figured as much, but was already going since i had the day off work (since i couldn't type anyway LOL)

[jaleely]

I had a request for more pics, and will put them up this weekend. I just had to get the initial ones up...and that was hard to do one handed : )

[StudentoReptile]

Maybe it's just me but I see a lot of times hognoses suggested as beginner snakes and no one asks anyone's age. If Melissa had a reaction like this, and she's an adult, what could happen to a child who doesn't have the same size or immune system? They are THAT dangerous. Especially since they aren't handled with hooks or even worse, handled around children without a second thought.

Melissa, I'd hope it's getting better by now :)

That is a good point, Aaron. Personally, they're not what I would consider a "beginner snake" anyway, not just for this reason but because hatchlings can be finicky eaters (although seriously, what colubrid isn't?). But I know they're still commonly sold as "safe" starter snakes.

[Aaron_S]

That is a good point, Aaron. Personally, they're not what I would consider a "beginner snake" anyway, not just for this reason but because hatchlings can be finicky eaters (although seriously, what colubrid isn't?). But I know they're still commonly sold as "safe" starter snakes.

Cornsnakes to answer your question! lol

[Terranaut]

I was going to say gophers. Mine hasn't missed a single meal and has a crazy feed response. I actually have never heard of finiky colubrids?? Are mine strange? Seriously now not poking fun. I know indigos eat, bull snakes eat, pine snakes , ect. So other than hogs what else is finiky? Colubrids I mean.

[kernel]

We all agree they are mildly venomous, but does anyone else think Aaron S is exaggerating? Judging by Melissa's bite, I would think it would have to be a newborn baby to die from one of their bites and even then, I don't think that would happen.

[SAW]

After reading some of the reactions to my post, I am reminded why I typically refrain from commenting on topics in Internet fora. I appreciate that some have taken the time to read my post in total and also have considered the different levels of discussion of the topic. It did require some detail, and thus it was a bit "long winded". As I am not going to respond to personal slights or to those who clearly have their "beliefs" (I stated that the point was to offer an alternative and less "advertised" consensus) re this subject, I will only bullet a few take home points and respond generally to a couple of inaccurate comments.

The definition of venom has traditionally been dependent on function, how it is used, NOT on the presence of toxins alone OR on the incidental effects of these substances on humans. Recently, one group of investigators (Fry et al. ) have HYPOTHESIZED a different definition of "venom" based on phylogenetic origins and the presence of toxins with the ASSUMPTION of function. A number of long-term investigators and I do not agree that at this time there is sufficient evidence to change the definition. It certainly may change in the future, but it is premature at this time as function of so many of the species by this criteria labeled as "venomous" (e.g. bearded dragons, Pogona spp. etc.) do not evidence any use of toxins in their oral secretions as "venoms". This includes Heterodon as these snakes swallow their prey alive and show no "subtle" prey subjugation assistance via their Duvernoy's secretions. Perhaps, some extensive and carefully conducted future observations will support the use of the term "venom" for these, but the current evidence is lacking. The Fry group and my colleagues and I are currently debating this and you will be seeing more about this in the near future.

Regarding "misinformation":
I purposely cited our recent book and previous review of Heterodon bites in order to direct interested parties to more detailed discussion of this fascinating topic. Obviously, a few contributors here didn't read that. Briefly, there are only a few publications re the Duvernoy's secretions of Heterodon spp. The papers by Hill and Mackessy and Young only demonstrate the presence of toxins, not function. Following the criteria that this proves "venom", suggests that humans are venomous too.

As noted above, I am well aware of the literature and our book and paper mentioned above include detailed critical review of ALL of the literature re Heterodon Duvernoy's secretions vs venom. I never stated that I had not"reviewed the literature".

I included my titles as one often does not know who is commenting in Internet fora. I was not presenting pretense; rather, taking responsibility for my comments and, yes, there is over 35 years professional experience behind them. As I said, I am not trying to change beliefs, just assure that interested readers are aware of "both sides of the story".

One last comment re misinformation:
Never ignore a symptomatic snakebite based on the reported experience of others. I have treated a handful of Heterodon bites, as well as a large number of other "colubrid" bites and some were inconsequential and a few, such as the one we published, we're significant.
DO NOT take non-steroidal anti-inflammatory meds after any snakebite as this can increase bleeding tendencies; again, the effects of many non-front-fanged colubrids bites (including that of Heterodon) are poorly characterized. My apologies for the additional "long-winded" post, but the subject is not just "semantics".
It's been an interesting exchange and I hope it has been infoative to open-minded readers. SAW

[SAW]

Forgot to add one last thing:
Jaleely:
It is unfortunate that the physicians who reviewed your bite were likely unfamiliar with such cases. This is one of the reasons why David Warrell, Dan Keyler, Julian White and I published our book specifically on this problem. Part of the intention was to inform the medical community about the appropriate management of non-front-fanged colubroid bites. Even so, as I commented, there is little info about many; thus, it is a clinical standard to follow protocol similar to that for other snakebites.

Contrary to some of what has been posted in this string, as long as the bite is presented early, some of the treatments that I mentioned can help in some cases. As I also stated, it is likely that the effects in some cases are a combination of Duvernoy's secretion (and possibly other oral secretions as well as the ducts from all of these glands in Heterodon spp. open generally into the oral cavity and not in the gingival sulcus [folds of the gums] of any specific dentition) and Type I hypersensitivity.

Truly finally, although as I said I cannot offer you formal medical advice sight unseen, I suggest that in addition to my previous suggestions that you refrain from placing pressure on the bite site (even if this feels "better"). If the wound does not improve shortly, definitely have another medical review as if wound management is indicated, the earlier it is instituted, the better.

SAW

[StudentoReptile]

Cornsnakes to answer your question! lol

That's debatable. ;) But I don't want to derail this into a discussion about the feeding habits of various colubrids.

[Aaron_S]

We all agree they are mildly venomous, but does anyone else think Aaron S is exaggerating? Judging by Melissa's bite, I would think it would have to be a newborn baby to die from one of their bites and even then, I don't think that would happen.

I'm more worried about an allergic reaction just like someone may be to a bee sting. Allow your child to be stung by a bee and be deathly allergic and you'll see if I'm exaggerating.

The thing is we don't know if someone is allergic or not or may have a seriously bad reaction until they are bit. Why take the chance ever?

From Melissa's reaction and how tight it was I would like to see you care for a child going through that kind of ordeal. It wouldn't be fun. You obviously are not a parent.

[jarich]

Thank you SAW for posting a response again, they were all informative and well thought out. It's interesting especially as I've never thought of venom as a definition based on function rather than form. I look forward to reading your book when I have the time. Thank you again.

[Gregg M]

I'm more worried about an allergic reaction just like someone may be to a bee sting. Allow your child to be stung by a bee and be deathly allergic and you'll see if I'm exaggerating..

The thing is we don't know if someone is allergic or not or may have a seriously bad reaction until they are bit. Why take the chance ever?.

Generally when it comes to being allergic to stings and bites, one would need to be exposed to the substance before hand. If you get stung by a bee for the first time, you will not have an allergic reaction. However, any subsequent stings can result in allergic reaction.

From Melissa's reaction and how tight it was I would like to see you care for a child going through that kind of ordeal. It wouldn't be fun. You obviously are not a parent.

I am a parent and I allow my daughter to handle the hognose snakes, supervised ofcorse. She has been bitten twice. Again, I do not allow the snakes to hold on for too long. The two times she was bitten the snake was take off quickly. She also never suffered anything more than a few puncture. Hognose snakes are completely harmless. They have not cause any systemic problems. It is a localized reaction.

SAW,
Sorry if my post somehow offended you but seriously, I will be listening to BGF for the simple fact that he is in the field and is actually studying venom and not getting his information from a textbook.

The book you released. Is it up to date original work that you have done or was the information sited from other literature?

[jaleely]

SAW I actually appreciate you posts. My underlying issue with it was that I felt you were using the opportunity to promote a book of yours.

The crux of the problem is that people don't differentiate between the saliva reactions, and the exsistence and possible use of the Duvernoy's glad and it's secretions. You can say humans have the same potential at a lower severity as a hognose snake, in regards to the saliva, but the facts are they do possess the Duvernoy's gland, and weather it's only used as they are swallowing prey.

Perhaps if there was a diagram on where and how they excrete the venom from the glad, rather than the definition of the word venom. Is it not that the venom mixes with the saliva and gets into the wound? I feel like you addressed that, but i may have lost it in translation.

Anyway, to get back to me (it is, always about me, i hope you all keep that in mind with my future posts ;)
I can understand not compressing the wound, especially seeing as the type of wound it was. But, at some point it may have required draining, or what i did, which was slight compression. Honestly the pressure was extreme. I've had wounds, surgeries, etc., and that was the worst swelling.
As an update, my fingers have gone down, you can see the bones in my wrist again (I have prominent carpal bumps, and you can actually see it on my wrist again)...however the finger with the bite on it...though the bite is not sore at all, and swelling is gone...the whole tip of that finger is still tender, and "weird" due to capillary damage from how full the swelling was. That is the main spot I chose to compress, and I do honestly feel it would have been worse if i hadn't.
The back of my hand is still stragely swollen, and the muscles there are sore and tender as well. Below the furthist knucles i have seen a couple red blotches that make me think the cappilaries may have been damaged there as well.

Anyway, As Gregg said, overall hognose snake bites keep a localized reaction that should not become too harmful, however if you cannot get them OFF of you, clearly the damage can be more severe *lol*
Also, as there is a venom involved, regardless of the saliva, i think sensitivity to the venom becomes more prominent, so Aaron is right here. My first bite, was very short, however i did get swelling, and a little liquid coming from the wound.

[jaleely]

Some more photos:

Here is my hognose the first time he bit me...he is twice that size now!
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo3991.jpg

her is how i got him off of me lol
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo3992.jpg

he held on anyway, this time.

Here is a photo i took right after the bite (different angle than the previous ones obviously) http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo4638.jpg
You can see how far the pointy finger is swollen.

This photo here really shows the distortion, in my opinion, and where i get that it was quite painful to be that swollen!
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo4639.jpg

Here is another "end" photo...this is 24 hours later. It did actually swell more up my wrist, even after this photo was taken. That little knob on my wrist was completely invisible by the end of the day.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo4654.jpg

[jaleely]

Here is my hand right now.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo4737.jpg

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo4738.jpg

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/hand.jpg

Oh, and after all the drama was over....here is how rewarded the little monster in question.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n640/jaleely/snakes/Photo4632.jpg
He was very happy to have this fish *rolls eyes* i never would have thought he would have wanted fish, but when i put him back he looked all around for the food he'd lost (my hand) and so i gave him one, and he gobbled it down! little jerk *lol*

[MDT]

Ok.. I've really been debating this and I'll probably be sorry for interjecting. First of all in a new/old guy. I joined this board in '05, never relly posted, just read. Got a lot of good info. I'm an ER physician in Oklahoma. I have treated many, many snake bites (I'm the guy that gets the call from my colleagues about them because they are freaked out out snakes). I've also had the opportunity to treat a pretty severe Heloderma bite (more about that later).

Jaleely, I really was impressed with the appearance of your bite. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it seems you have weathered it pretty well and I'm glad you're ok. Your experience the the physician is pretty typical. I think the whole venom thing may be a bit of semantics. You clearly had a reaction. Clinically, it would not fall into a significant bite based on criteria of the Snakebite Severity Score. Obviously, there would be no "real" treatment for a Heterodon bite (CroFab, etc), so clinically, it's pretty much supportive care and treat complications if they should arise (thankfully, it doesn't seem they have)...You may have been previously sensitized as mentioned by Gregg M, thus causing the reaction you experienced. That is what happened with the Heloderma bite I treated. The patient had been exposed the H. horridum venom, and a couple of years later was bitten (really long bit time) by H. suspectum. The patient rapidly developed low blood pressure and swelling of the tongue requiring aggressive pressure support and he needed intubation and mechanical ventilation. My reading of the literature indicated only one other reaction like this. We suspected his reaction was significant because of his previous exposure. Anyway, he recovered nicely.

Gregg M, Dr BG Fry def knows his stuff. As does Dr Weinstein. As does Dr Richard Dart, as does Dr Sean Bush. My point is, 30+ years of venom/toxinology work is not just book knowledge. These guys all have made huge contributions to the field. We may not always agree with the hypothesis, but we can have discourse without denigrating. If I misunderstood your intent, please accept my apology. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I've just been following this thread and it seemed to be a little hostile(?)....

Again, for a first real post in a pretty active thread may not bode well for me. I just thought I'd comment from a clinical standpoint as someone who has been "in the field" for many years. Jaleely, I'm glad things are turning around for your hand! I wish more physicians understood envenomations/toxinology a little better....

Cheers...
Matt

[kernel]

I'm more worried about an allergic reaction just like someone may be to a bee sting. Allow your child to be stung by a bee and be deathly allergic and you'll see if I'm exaggerating.

The thing is we don't know if someone is allergic or not or may have a seriously bad reaction until they are bit. Why take the chance ever?

From Melissa's reaction and how tight it was I would like to see you care for a child going through that kind of ordeal. It wouldn't be fun. You obviously are not a parent.

That's right we don't know, but as someone already pointed out, you not going to have an allergic reaction the first time. It will be the second or third time before you have one and it will be worse every time.

Your right, I'm not a parent, I'm 17, but that doesn't change the fact I can't see a reaction like her's killing a kid or even a baby. One swollen hand equals a leg or arm on a baby. I may be wrong as I'm not a doctor, but still I can't see it happening.

[Aaron_S]

That's right we don't know, but as someone already pointed out, you not going to have an allergic reaction the first time. It will be the second or third time before you have one and it will be worse every time.

Your right, I'm not a parent, I'm 17, but that doesn't change the fact I can't see a reaction like her's killing a kid or even a baby. One swollen hand equals a leg or arm on a baby. I may be wrong as I'm not a doctor, but still I can't see it happening.

I'm only going to say we thought the same thing about vine snakes until someone died..and the same about boomslangs.

Anything can happen and I would just hope more people would be a little more cautious but to each their own. I no longer wish to partake in this debate.

I agree to disagree.

[Rogue628]

Ok.. I've really been debating this and I'll probably be sorry for interjecting. First of all in a new/old guy. I joined this board in '05, never relly posted, just read. Got a lot of good info. I'm an ER physician in Oklahoma. I have treated many, many snake bites (I'm the guy that gets the call from my colleagues about them because they are freaked out out snakes). I've also had the opportunity to treat a pretty severe Heloderma bite (more about that later).

Jaleely, I really was impressed with the appearance of your bite. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it seems you have weathered it pretty well and I'm glad you're ok. Your experience the the physician is pretty typical. I think the whole venom thing may be a bit of semantics. You clearly had a reaction. Clinically, it would not fall into a significant bite based on criteria of the Snakebite Severity Score. Obviously, there would be no "real" treatment for a Heterodon bite (CroFab, etc), so clinically, it's pretty much supportive care and treat complications if they should arise (thankfully, it doesn't seem they have)...You may have been previously sensitized as mentioned by Gregg M, thus causing the reaction you experienced. That is what happened with the Heloderma bite I treated. The patient had been exposed the H. horridum venom, and a couple of years later was bitten (really long bit time) by H. suspectum. The patient rapidly developed low blood pressure and swelling of the tongue requiring aggressive pressure support and he needed intubation and mechanical ventilation. My reading of the literature indicated only one other reaction like this. We suspected his reaction was significant because of his previous exposure. Anyway, he recovered nicely.

Gregg M, Dr BG Fry def knows his stuff. As does Dr Weinstein. As does Dr Richard Dart, as does Dr Sean Bush. My point is, 30+ years of venom/toxinology work is not just book knowledge. These guys all have made huge contributions to the field. We may not always agree with the hypothesis, but we can have discourse without denigrating. If I misunderstood your intent, please accept my apology. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I've just been following this thread and it seemed to be a little hostile(?)....

Again, for a first real post in a pretty active thread may not bode well for me. I just thought I'd comment from a clinical standpoint as someone who has been "in the field" for many years. Jaleely, I'm glad things are turning around for your hand! I wish more physicians understood envenomations/toxinology a little better....

Cheers...
Matt

Thank you for bringing your clinical experience and knowledge to the thread. I do hope to see you post a little more often as I believe you have alot you can contribute to the forum as well. :)

Jaleely, I'm glad to see your hand has much improved!

[jaleely]

thanks guys!!!
and matt, i enjoyed your post. nothing bad to say here.

You actually reminded me that since i did go to the doctor they took my blood pressure, and my temperature.
I was having a bit of stress that day (specifically about going to the doctor and how much it might cost if they wanted to try to do some radical treatment or something)...but of course they didn't, and had no clue...which is more what i expected.
Anyway...I normally run a temperature that is lower than most, at 97.6. I was running at 98.8...so that is a little high for me (this was taken about 30 hours after the bite) and they did say my blood pressure was a little low...but nothing to worry about. I only remember the bottom number of 67...i think it was like 117 over 67..which normal is what, 120/70 or something?

Had to say if it was related since it's still within normal ranges.

Aaron, you can't leave the thread!! This is worse than when mykee almost got banned! *lol*
Seriously though bud, i didn't even know about the vine snake thing so it's made me look it up. You know i take it seriously, and whether anyone thinks it was a bad reaction, or a mild one, happened because i'd been bitten before, or because it was a long bite, or whatever...regardless, I plan to treat my silly hognose snakes with a bit more respect just because all snakes need to be...and some more than others. I don't particularly want to have to go through that again, so lesson learned that hognose bites can cause even a slight annoyance to the skin that is a big annoyance for ME *lol*

[kernel]

I'm only going to say we thought the same thing about vine snakes until someone died..and the same about boomslangs.

Anything can happen and I would just hope more people would be a little more cautious but to each their own. I no longer wish to partake in this debate.

I agree to disagree.

I won't say it's impossible for that to happen with hognose, but I highly doubt it. Besides, you would have to let it chew on you extended period of time, so if you get them off immediately you won't run into problems. I have been bit 2 times by mine, but I get her off immediately both times and nothing happened.

Being that she has bit me a couple times (feeding response BTW), I do give her more respect, especially since she's getting close to the size where she could swallow my finger.

I will respect your wish to not debate about this anymore, so unless you wish to do so again, this is the last you will hear about this from me.

[jaleely]

All I'll add kernel is that i never imagined my hoggie would get that stuck in my flesh, especially right away. I'm glad to see you said you have more respect for yours...i know i have more for mine.
I was pretty shocked how stuck he was on my finger, actually. Husband said he could hear the "pop" when we finally got his jaws pushed forward and i could roll my finger out *lol* i know i felt it alright.
He just happened to bite my fleshy finger at the right angle, and that was it. Not only was he stubborn about letting go, but he actually couldn't move much wider to pull off.

I guess some people just keep saying "you'd have to let'em chew for a long time" and "just get them off immidiately" and it's like, yeah, i TRIED *lol* sometimes **** happens, and for that instance there is no way i actually could have gotten him off by myself without hurting him. I'm not saying people are saying specifically to me "you should have just gotten him off quicker"...but even if they are...*shrug*
It is what it is, and for the position he bit me, it was difficult to remove him, especially since he didn't want to...and it took time.

I guess i think saying "just remove them quickly" is kind of a cop-out. Now, i'm not trying to be offensive...but it only takes once in a strange circumstance and giant hand is what you get for it. Sometimes it's not as simple as "just remove them quickly" lol I'm glad it has been for some of you. I hope if it ever happens again (which i'm going to try and make sure it doesn't) it's fast like the first time, too. Especially with animals though, i guess i'm saying you can't count on it always being the easiest solution or circumstance.

[Gregg M]

I'm only going to say we thought the same thing about vine snakes until someone died..and the same about boomslangs.

Anything can happen and I would just hope more people would be a little more cautious but to each their own. I no longer wish to partake in this debate.

I agree to disagree.

Aaron, I am not sure where you are getting your info from but there are no known fatalities from a vine snake bite. Do you have any literature on the bite case?

Secondly, boomslangs have been know to deliver very serious bites that can cause death since the early 1900's. In 1957 famous herpetologist Karl Patterson Schmidt was the first westerner to die from a boomslang bite. Boomslangs have very potent venom. Hognose snakes do not. Boonslangs have a well developed delivery system, hognose do not.

For you to put hognose snakes in the same catagory as boomslangs is just rediculous.

[kernel]

Aaron, I am not sure where you are getting your info from but there are no known fatalities from a vine snake bite. Do you have any literature on the bite case?

Secondly, boomslangs have been know to deliver very serious bites that can cause death since the early 1900's. In 1957 famous herpetologist Karl Patterson Schmidt was the first westerner to die from a boomslang bite. Boomslangs have very potent venom. Hognose snakes do not. Boonslangs have a well developed delivery system, hognose do not.

For you to put hognose snakes in the same catagory as boomslangs is just rediculous.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I didn't have anything to back that up, so I just didn't say anything

[kernel]

All I'll add kernel is that i never imagined my hoggie would get that stuck in my flesh, especially right away. I'm glad to see you said you have more respect for yours...i know i have more for mine.
I was pretty shocked how stuck he was on my finger, actually. Husband said he could hear the "pop" when we finally got his jaws pushed forward and i could roll my finger out *lol* i know i felt it alright.
He just happened to bite my fleshy finger at the right angle, and that was it. Not only was he stubborn about letting go, but he actually couldn't move much wider to pull off.

I guess some people just keep saying "you'd have to let'em chew for a long time" and "just get them off immidiately" and it's like, yeah, i TRIED *lol* sometimes **** happens, and for that instance there is no way i actually could have gotten him off by myself without hurting him. I'm not saying people are saying specifically to me "you should have just gotten him off quicker"...but even if they are...*shrug*
It is what it is, and for the position he bit me, it was difficult to remove him, especially since he didn't want to...and it took time.

I guess i think saying "just remove them quickly" is kind of a cop-out. Now, i'm not trying to be offensive...but it only takes once in a strange circumstance and giant hand is what you get for it. Sometimes it's not as simple as "just remove them quickly" lol I'm glad it has been for some of you. I hope if it ever happens again (which i'm going to try and make sure it doesn't) it's fast like the first time, too. Especially with animals though, i guess i'm saying you can't count on it always being the easiest solution or circumstance.

I don't remember who said it, but if it happens again, use their rostral (spelling?) scale as a leverage point, pull back on it and roll your finger out. I haven't tried that method yet (hopefully I won't have to), but if/when it happens, I'm going to try it.

[jaleely]

kernel.... unfortunately for me hand, we figured that method out the hard way *LOL*
If i'd known what to do earlier, it probably wouldn't have lasted that long. I'll agree to that! I've always been one to learn the hard way *lol*
I guess i just kept expecting him to let go on his own. Under water, alcohol...it was a last resort for me to handle him. That was a big part of it too, i was really worried about him getting injured. It's always a possibility. I tend to mother my animals though : )

[bladeblaster]

After reading some of the reactions to my post, I am reminded why I typically refrain from commenting on topics in Internet fora. I appreciate that some have taken the time to read my post in total and also have considered the different levels of discussion of the topic. It did require some detail, and thus it was a bit "long winded". As I am not going to respond to personal slights or to those who clearly have their "beliefs" (I stated that the point was to offer an alternative and less "advertised" consensus) re this subject, I will only bullet a few take home points and respond generally to a couple of inaccurate comments.

The definition of venom has traditionally been dependent on function, how it is used, NOT on the presence of toxins alone OR on the incidental effects of these substances on humans. Recently, one group of investigators (Fry et al. ) have HYPOTHESIZED a different definition of "venom" based on phylogenetic origins and the presence of toxins with the ASSUMPTION of function. A number of long-term investigators and I do not agree that at this time there is sufficient evidence to change the definition. It certainly may change in the future, but it is premature at this time as function of so many of the species by this criteria labeled as "venomous" (e.g. bearded dragons, Pogona spp. etc.) do not evidence any use of toxins in their oral secretions as "venoms". This includes Heterodon as these snakes swallow their prey alive and show no "subtle" prey subjugation assistance via their Duvernoy's secretions. Perhaps, some extensive and carefully conducted future observations will support the use of the term "venom" for these, but the current evidence is lacking. The Fry group and my colleagues and I are currently debating this and you will be seeing more about this in the near future.

Regarding "misinformation":
I purposely cited our recent book and previous review of Heterodon bites in order to direct interested parties to more detailed discussion of this fascinating topic. Obviously, a few contributors here didn't read that. Briefly, there are only a few publications re the Duvernoy's secretions of Heterodon spp. The papers by Hill and Mackessy and Young only demonstrate the presence of toxins, not function. Following the criteria that this proves "venom", suggests that humans are venomous too.

As noted above, I am well aware of the literature and our book and paper mentioned above include detailed critical review of ALL of the literature re Heterodon Duvernoy's secretions vs venom. I never stated that I had not"reviewed the literature".

I included my titles as one often does not know who is commenting in Internet fora. I was not presenting pretense; rather, taking responsibility for my comments and, yes, there is over 35 years professional experience behind them. As I said, I am not trying to change beliefs, just assure that interested readers are aware of "both sides of the story".

One last comment re misinformation:
Never ignore a symptomatic snakebite based on the reported experience of others. I have treated a handful of Heterodon bites, as well as a large number of other "colubrid" bites and some were inconsequential and a few, such as the one we published, we're significant.
DO NOT take non-steroidal anti-inflammatory meds after any snakebite as this can increase bleeding tendencies; again, the effects of many non-front-fanged colubrids bites (including that of Heterodon) are poorly characterized. My apologies for the additional "long-winded" post, but the subject is not just "semantics".
It's been an interesting exchange and I hope it has been infoative to open-minded readers. SAW

That was more interesting than the first post TBH, I think perhaps it was down to the wording of the first post. It seemed to be being presented as absolute fact, and then in the same breath contradicting itself.

The subject is under debate on the broad terminology of venom and what exactly constitutes a venom. So it really is semantics for the bite victim.

Ok.. I've really been debating this and I'll probably be sorry for interjecting. First of all in a new/old guy. I joined this board in '05, never relly posted, just read. Got a lot of good info. I'm an ER physician in Oklahoma. I have treated many, many snake bites (I'm the guy that gets the call from my colleagues about them because they are freaked out out snakes). I've also had the opportunity to treat a pretty severe Heloderma bite (more about that later).

Jaleely, I really was impressed with the appearance of your bite. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it seems you have weathered it pretty well and I'm glad you're ok. Your experience the the physician is pretty typical. I think the whole venom thing may be a bit of semantics. You clearly had a reaction. Clinically, it would not fall into a significant bite based on criteria of the Snakebite Severity Score. Obviously, there would be no "real" treatment for a Heterodon bite (CroFab, etc), so clinically, it's pretty much supportive care and treat complications if they should arise (thankfully, it doesn't seem they have)...You may have been previously sensitized as mentioned by Gregg M, thus causing the reaction you experienced. That is what happened with the Heloderma bite I treated. The patient had been exposed the H. horridum venom, and a couple of years later was bitten (really long bit time) by H. suspectum. The patient rapidly developed low blood pressure and swelling of the tongue requiring aggressive pressure support and he needed intubation and mechanical ventilation. My reading of the literature indicated only one other reaction like this. We suspected his reaction was significant because of his previous exposure. Anyway, he recovered nicely.

Gregg M, Dr BG Fry def knows his stuff. As does Dr Weinstein. As does Dr Richard Dart, as does Dr Sean Bush. My point is, 30+ years of venom/toxinology work is not just book knowledge. These guys all have made huge contributions to the field. We may not always agree with the hypothesis, but we can have discourse without denigrating. If I misunderstood your intent, please accept my apology. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I've just been following this thread and it seemed to be a little hostile(?)....

Again, for a first real post in a pretty active thread may not bode well for me. I just thought I'd comment from a clinical standpoint as someone who has been "in the field" for many years. Jaleely, I'm glad things are turning around for your hand! I wish more physicians understood envenomations/toxinology a little better....

Cheers...
Matt

Nice post ;)

[Viperkeeper]

Wow! Nice envenoming! Not sure if there's much that can do at the hospital except make things worse. If you want to talk to somebody who's treated Hognose bites I can put you in touch with my "Bite Doc" Dr Dan Keyler. who was one of the author of this newly published book.

Good Luck!

Al Coritz

[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Venomous%C2%94-Bites-Non-Venomous-Snakes-Management/dp/0123877326/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338256170&sr=8-1"]

[youngster]

Holy crap Jaleely, Viperkeeper just posted this thread to his facebook lol. You're practically famous!

[jaleely]

lol oh i try...it must be the attractive hands!

[infernalis]

Wow! Nice envenoming! Not sure if there's much that can do at the hospital except make things worse. If you want to talk to somebody who's treated Hognose bites I can put you in touch with my "Bite Doc" Dr Dan Keyler. who was one of the author of this newly published book.

Good Luck!

Al Coritz




Is this the same guy all over youtube & facebook?

[StudentoReptile]

Is this the same guy all over youtube & facebook?

Yes it is.

[infernalis]

Evidently he does not think I know anything about Savannah Monitors.

He thinks it's acceptable practice to tether a Sav to a table leg with a hot rock and water bowl, and I am a douche for saying it's not acceptable.

and according to him, the savannahs is a desert.

[jaleely]

Many people dislike this website, but I actually found this silly story to be incredibly more informative as to how the Duvernoy's glad actually works, than a lot of the (good!) information posted here...I find that as I get older I like more things to be simply stated, though I do enjoy a good article every now and then.

Duvernoy's Glands and "Warm" Herping (http://www.anapsid.org/duvernoygland.html)

So! What I took from this was that it may be the proteins in the venom, secreted from the glads..that mix with the saliva which then gets into the wound, through the puncture areas.
Is this a correct summation?
Also, they are rear fanged, to help them capture and *keep* a hold of their prey, since they do not constrict.

Just trying to be more layman's termed here : ) What do you guys think?

[Gregg M]

Al is a good friend of mine. He is one of the best venomous guys in the hobby. Not everyone is into varanids. If he did indeed say that it is because when folks like him and I started keeping reptiles, those practices were acceptable. Or he could have been playing around.

[Gregg M]

Many people dislike this website, but I actually found this silly story to be incredibly more informative as to how the Duvernoy's glad actually works, than a lot of the (good!) information posted here...I find that as I get older I like more things to be simply stated, though I do enjoy a good article every now and then.

Duvernoy's Glands and "Warm" Herping (http://www.anapsid.org/duvernoygland.html)

So! What I took from this was that it may be the proteins in the venom, secreted from the glads..that mix with the saliva which then gets into the wound, through the puncture areas.
Is this a correct summation?
Also, they are rear fanged, to help them capture and *keep* a hold of their prey, since they do not constrict.

Just trying to be more layman's termed here : ) What do you guys think?

Word of advice.
Take what Melissa Kaplan writes with a tiny grain of salt.

Venom is made up of peptides, amino acids, carbohydrates, proteins, lipids, nucleosides, and other various things. Mixing with saliva has nothing at all to do with the symptoms of a venomous bite.

Rear fangs did not evolve to hold or capture prey. Their regular, recurved, nonvenom secreting teeth do that job perfectly well. The rear fangs in honose snakes are also NOT for popping toads as some people still seem to believe.

[jaleely]

I thought someone else wrote it, it was just posted on her site?
But I'm not aurguing, I know there's many questions about what's posted on that site *lol*

Okay...good I'm glad you wrote that about the venom. I was wondering what hognose venom is made up of...I was injected once with the venom of a sting ray (Yes, I am a habitual bad decision maker when it comes to animals lol...not really a laughing matter, but kind of *rolls eyes*)
And research showed that putting the wound in hot water helped break down the proteins in the venom, and completely relieved the pain....which it did.
For kicks I did try this with the hognose bite, and of course it didn't work (can't blame a girl for trying).

Anyway, was just curious as to if we have the research on what it's made up of more-or-less. I know it's probably complicated, but you may see what I'm asking.

Good to point out that mixing the saliva has no affect. I actually was under the impression from reading that, that it did have.

Also good to bring up the fangs. Why are they rear-fanged? I had also heard it was for "popping" toads...I did think the fact that they were so curved helped latch on to the prey, so it couldn't get away. Another reason people (i think) don't think they need to have venom, so it was hard to imagine they had it. They are pretty efficient at latching on to prey.

[BarelyBreathing]

Word of advice.
Take what Melissa Kaplan writes with a tiny grain of salt.

FINALLY! I've been saying that for years now, and everybody still believes she is the best vet out there.

Okay, but enough about her, what do you propose rear fanged animals evolved those rear fangs for? I always thought it was for a stronger hold. Apparently I am wrong.

[Gregg M]

FINALLY! I've been saying that for years now, and everybody still believes she is the best vet out there.

Okay, but enough about her, what do you propose rear fanged animals evolved those rear fangs for? I always thought it was for a stronger hold. Apparently I am wrong.

Rear fangs in colubrids evolved for the same reasons front fangs did in Viperids and elapids. To work venom into the punctures they inflict to immobilize prey. There is a reason why all rear fanged colubrid species have Duvernoy's glands. Snakes that use other methods to dispatch prey like constriction, entirely lack Duvernoy's glands and fangs. For instance, pyhons, boas, corn snakes, king snakes, milk snakes, and so on all lack the fangs and glands. Fangs and teeth are very different from eachother. Many people do not know the difference.

Also, if you look at the rear fang of most colubrids, they are either only very slightly recurved or not recurved at all. Hognose rear fangs are not very recurved at all. They are however hinged.

[BarelyBreathing]

Rear fangs in colubrids evolved for the same reasons front fangs did in Viperids and elapids. To work venom into the punctures they inflict to immobilize prey. There is a reason why all rear fanged colubrid species have Duvernoy's glands. Snakes that use other methods to dispatch prey like constriction, entirely lack Duvernoy's glands and fangs. For instance, pyhons, boas, corn snakes, king snakes, milk snakes, and so on all lack the fangs and glands. Fangs and teeth are very different from eachother. Many people do not know the difference.

No, I get that. That isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking why they evolved (do you think) to have a less effective means of envenomating their prey than other venomous species?

[BarelyBreathing]

Basically, I'm asking why you think the venom delivery system is so far into the mouth instead of up front?

[jaleely]

Hmm. So what IS the difference?
I thought hoggies didn't have the hollow teeth/or the crevices to properly inject venom.

Basically though, they are venomous, they have the glads, they have just not evolved the most effective way to inject it. So, it does secrete out when they bite...and get into the wound. Hence the reaction.
But, it has nothing to do with the saliva...it just perhaps flows with the saliva into the wound...that is the distinction, correct?

Okay, so the rear fangs are shaped that way to work the venom in...through...moving? Or because they are long, it's on the fangs and gets kind of injected? It just seeps in because there is an open wound?

It's not like none of this is making sense...it's just trying to word it in a way that facilitates the whole picture for everyone.
This is exactly why so many people are confused...because it seems like it's all part of the same thing, just slightly more pinpointed in actual process. Does that make sense?

I'm not trying to be frustrating, I'm actually trying to find the perfect wording so we can clear up any confusion : )

[red ink]

No, I get that. That isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking why they evolved (do you think) to have a less effective means of envenomating their prey than other venomous species?

Actually I think they have an effective way on envenomating their prey due to the lack of toxicity in their venom.

Unlike viperidaes and elapidaes which have higher toxicity in their venom, the grab and hold method of colubridaes work well (for them) in ensuring venom delivery in the epidermis punctures....

Compensation for the lack of venom toxicity, grab and hold....

Assumptions on my part obviously and void of any scientific data.

[BarelyBreathing]

Actually I think they have an effective way on envenomating their prey due to the lack of toxicity in their venom.

Unlike viperidaes and elapidaes which have higher toxicity in their venom, the grab and hold method of colubridaes work well (for them) in ensuring venom delivery in the epidermis punctures....

Compensation for the lack of venom toxicity, grab and hold....

Assumptions on my part obviously and void of any scientific data.


Yeah, okay. I can see that.


Any other thoughts?

[Gregg M]

Basically, I'm asking why you think the venom delivery system is so far into the mouth instead of up front?

Why would be just a guess on my part, but I personally feel that it has a lot to do with the type of prey it "specializes" in. I can not imagine toads, frogs, neonatal rodents and small lizards would give up too much of a fight. Also, the rear fangs are not set that far back into the mouth. The term "rear fanged" is a bit misleading. The fangs are actually situated right below the eye. The fangs are easily sunk into flesh without actually having to swallow and most colubids get them in with a single strike.

The delivery system in hogs may not be effective on us but it seems to be quite effective on the small prey they consume.

[BarelyBreathing]

Why would be just a guess on my part, but I personally feel that it has a lot to do with the type of prey it "specializes" in. I can not imagine toads, frogs, neonatal rodents and small lizards would give up too much of a fight. Also, the rear fangs are not set that far back into the mouth. The term "rear fanged" is a bit misleading. The fangs are actually situated right below the eye. The fangs are easily sunk into flesh without actually having to swallow and most colubids get them in with a single strike.

The delivery system in hogs may not be effective on us but it seems to be quite effective on the small prey they consume.


Looking at a side view, they appear further back, but I guess I've just been using the front of the mouth as a comparison rather than the whole skull.

[Gregg M]

Hmm. So what IS the difference?
I thought hoggies didn't have the hollow teeth/or the crevices to properly inject venom.

Basically though, they are venomous, they have the glads, they have just not evolved the most effective way to inject it. So, it does secrete out when they bite...and get into the wound. Hence the reaction.
But, it has nothing to do with the saliva...it just perhaps flows with the saliva into the wound...that is the distinction, correct?

Okay, so the rear fangs are shaped that way to work the venom in...through...moving? Or because they are long, it's on the fangs and gets kind of injected? It just seeps in because there is an open wound?

It's not like none of this is making sense...it's just trying to word it in a way that facilitates the whole picture for everyone.
This is exactly why so many people are confused...because it seems like it's all part of the same thing, just slightly more pinpointed in actual process. Does that make sense?

I'm not trying to be frustrating, I'm actually trying to find the perfect wording so we can clear up any confusion : )

I really like the fact that you are asking these questions and trying to get a deep understanding. No need to explain yourself at all.:D

The rear fang puctures is where the venom will enter. The Duvernoy's secretion does not need the saliva in order to flow. Basically, in hognose snakes, once the fangs sink, the glands are stimulated and the venom will start to flow. Just because there are not groved, it does not mean the venom will not flow down the fang. It just wont be as efficient at being channeled into the wound. As you have seen first hand (pun totally intended LOL) not as efficient does not mean not efficient.

[Gregg M]

Looking at a side view, they appear further back, but I guess I've just been using the front of the mouth as a comparison rather than the whole skull.

Here is an awful pic I took but you can see how close to the front the fangs really are. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2650/4051583394_caf8549fb8_o.jpg

[bladeblaster]

haven't read everything since my last post, but agree with what Gregg has said about the term 'rear fanged' very misleading term, and should only really taken in context when comparing to 'front fanged' vipers and such.

The fangs of 'rear' fanged snakes are a lot further forward in the mouth than most imagine, and easily engaged into prey as Greggs photo shows.

[BarelyBreathing]

I guess I never realized that. I have a hognose, but I've never looked too closely into it. I'm allergic to bees, spiders, and scorpions, and I've always thought that people who have those allergies have a higher reaction to snake venom. Is this true? I don't care to test it, that's for sure.

[Gregg M]

I'm allergic to bees, spiders, and scorpions, and I've always thought that people who have those allergies have a higher reaction to snake venom. Is this true? I don't care to test it, that's for sure.

Being allergic to bees, spiders, and scorpions does not mean you will be allergic to snake venom. The venoms compositions are totally different. In order for you to have an allergy to something, you would need to be exposed to it first. First time stings or bites will not yield an allergic reaction. However, as I mentioned earlier, you can build an allergy after initial exposure. It could happen at the second sting or bite or after the 50th sting or bite.

[BarelyBreathing]

Yeah, I'm aware of how allergies work. I was just asking if it means that there is a higher possibility of having an intolerance in comparison to those who don't have those allergies.

[Gregg M]

Yeah, I'm aware of how allergies work. I was just asking if it means that there is a higher possibility of having an intolerance in comparison to those who don't have those allergies.

No, someone allergic to bee stings would not be more likely to have an "intolerance" than someone who is not because the substances are not the same. Its like saying if someone is allergic to milk, they may have an intolerance to water.

[Will0W783]

This thread has become quite fascinating- I really enjoy the debates and discussion over the evolution of the venom. I think that rear-fanged colubridae evolved slightly before the elapidae and viperidae, and since their system was effective enough to overcome their prey it didn't need to evolve more. Elapids and vipers needed to overcome larger prey and warm-blooded mammals of greater size so they needed to evolve higher toxicity and more efficient fangs....I don't have much evidence of this, but when looking at the phylogenetic trees of reptilians, it would appear that the toxicity and efficiency of venom delivery improved as the animals progressed down the evolutionary paths. Most rear-fanged colubrids feed primarily on toads/frogs, lizards, and very small mammals, whereas a lot of the elapidae and viperidae must overcome their prey rapidly and feed on birds, larger mammals and other snakes. A hognose can bite and hold onto a toad while its venom works, but a viper in a tree can't wait for venom to take several minutes while it is trying to catch a bird. It needs that venom to be rapid and effective so its prey can't fly away or run away. There's limited mobility in tree tops so it must be a rapid kill.This is how I've always seen it...correct me if I'm wrong.

[Will0W783]

Gregg and infernalis, I've met Viperkeeper at the Hamburg, PA reptile shows...he's extremely knowledgeable about his venomous snakes and is a genuinely nice man. I watch all his YouTube videos and really learn a lot from him. Once in a while, one of his videos will show him being a bit closer to the snakes than I would think safe, and I get nervous when I see stuff on the internet that others might copy and get injured doing, but he does clearly display disclaimers not to try what he does. He knows his animals really well, and as a fellow venomous keeper, I can attest that there are snakes I am more relaxed around than others....for example, I know that I can get away with much more cage maintenance and interaction with my Wagler's vipers than I can with, say, the cobra. Shelby must be lock-boxed for EVERYTHING...whereas the Wags can be left alone while water bowls are changed and the cage is drained. It's a matter of learning your animals, but I do think that when things are posted online for everyone to see, you have to be really careful what you show.

[BarelyBreathing]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't bloomslangs carry both very potent venom and are rear fanged?

[bushsnake]

boomslangs are a very primitive species...you cant even compare

[Gregg M]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't bloomslangs carry both very potent venom and are rear fanged?

Yes, boomslangs are a rear fanged colubrid and they are highly venomous. The have very large, grooved rear fangs and a very efficient delivery system. They are one of the few colubrids that do not have to chew in order to inject its venom.

As deadly as they are, there have only been 6 or 7 deaths caused by the boomslang in over 55 years.

[BarelyBreathing]

I was comparing in response to another comparison, actually.

[BarelyBreathing]

Yes, boomslangs are a rear fanged colubrid and they are highly venomous. The have very large, grooved rear fangs and a very efficient delivery system. They are one of the few colubrids that do not have to chew in order to inject its venom.

As deadly as they are, there have only been 6 or 7 deaths caused by the boomslang in over 55 years.

That's what I thought.

Now are those few deaths from lack of bites, or a higher response rate/better treatment?

[Gungirl]

I have sadly nothing Important to offer to this thread but thanks for all the information. I have been considering a Hognose and this thread has helped me with my decision.

[MoreliAddict]

I have sadly nothing Important to offer to this thread but thanks for all the information. I have been considering a Hognose and this thread has helped me with my decision.
I wouldn't be too turned off from the "venom" debate, it's being highly exaggerated here for some reason. Hognose wouldn't be sold to young kids in expos where they strictly don't allow venomous if it were anything worth considering.

Congrats if you meant this thread turned you onto getting one, though!

[BarelyBreathing]

I wouldn't be too turned off from the "venom" debate, it's being highly exaggerated here for some reason. Hognose wouldn't be sold to young kids in expos where they strictly don't allow venomous if it were anything worth considering.

Congrats if you meant this thread turned you onto getting one, though!


I agree. Reactions to them are so rare.

[jaleely]

I've been to a few expos and seen more than one vendor encourage a kid, and a family with small kids to get a hognose.
Unfortunately, not everyone is out there for the benefit of the animals.

I don't really think the point has been exaggerated at all. My personal point, and the reason I posted, was not strictly for attention, but because I just flat out realized I should have been more attentive to my animal and that this is what can occur if I'm not...*and* in a worse case scenario...if I can't get him off me *lol*

The point that's interesting is they in fact do have actual venom. The point that's been debated, is "is it serious" and because it is not fast acting and particularly harmful to human adults, many wondered how it existed or what it was. I think this thread has had a lot of people explaining it in a way that will help many people reach an understanding that it exists, is real, and though is not deadly, can at least make your hand swell up in a worst case situation : ) OH, and it IS venom, and not a reaction from saliva. I guess that was the main misconception.

Hognose snakes are amazingly adorable animals. They'd rather Hiss, Flare, shake their tails, wiggle away, flip over and play dead, including even musking, sticking their tongues out, and can make their own mouths bleed to simulate a dead animal...than bite you.
However, everything needs some respect during feeding time!
Or at least, if your hands smell like food realize it may soon become feeding time *rolls eyes*

...FYI they like fish....lol

[BarelyBreathing]

Great post, Jaleely.

[Gregg M]

That's what I thought.

Now are those few deaths from lack of bites, or a higher response rate/better treatment?

I would imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that the venom is very slow acting so there is a lot of time that can go by before treatment. It can take hours and hours before you have any symptoms.

Plus the boomslang is generally a reclusive snake.

[MoreliAddict]

@jaleely I agree and that was post very informative. But as far as the "is it serious" debate goes, I'd say absolutely not, and my original post responding to Gungirl is really just a reflection of that.

[a153fish]

I was going to say gophers. Mine hasn't missed a single meal and has a crazy feed response. I actually have never heard of finiky colubrids?? Are mine strange? Seriously now not poking fun. I know indigos eat, bull snakes eat, pine snakes , ect. So other than hogs what else is finiky? Colubrids I mean.

Well, many colubrids can be very picky about what foods they prefer. We always want them to eat pinky rodents, but many prefer lizards, or even other baby snakes, for their first meals. I have had some corn snakes make me want to pull my hair out, trying to get them to eat their first meals. Some Eastern Kings can also be challenging to get them eating, and of course many N. American Milk snakes prefer lizards, so do Alterna, and Mexicana.

Jaleely, I wanted to thank you for posting this thread. I am still reading it, but have enjoyed, and learned from it. I have some Tri-colored Hoggies, some Giant Mad Hogs, and recently aquired a pair of Barons Racers, so Any info on rear fanged snakes is welcomed.