Harley update

[BlueButterfly]

well, just wanted to let everyone know how well harley is doing! he is MUCH more active, eating better, happier etc.. I am very pleased. seems he just needed some time to adjust. since we moved the lights inside and lowered wattage things are MUCH better! so i figured id share some new pics.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/6cfcfe96.jpg
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http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/de63f5b3.jpg

[BlueButterfly]

and some videos
to come..

[BlueButterfly]

k cant get video to work.. i tried lol

[BlueButterfly]

here are some pics of his first outside adventure... he loved it.. ran around.. explored..caught some bugs.. even puffed up and hissed when i tried to bring him back in.. so i guess thats good.. lol

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/79664b8a.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/3b259073.jpg

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http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/891a79bf.jpg

[BlueButterfly]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/da346cab.jpg

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http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/0bc88a8c.jpg

[BlueButterfly]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/8c9c28ff.jpg

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http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/bostonianbutterfly/reptiles/56e82238.jpg

[BarelyBreathing]

I don't know what it is, but something looks "not right" about your monitor. Consider a vet check with a varanid specialist.

[BlueButterfly]

what do you mean Not right? could you be more specific?
i dont mean to sound like im not listening to your advice...but it seems silly to take him to the vet when he is doing so well. and has GREATLY improved from when we got him.. maybe if you could tell me what you think is wrong with him id take that comment more to heart??? what doesnt look right to you? sorry.. but i just think it would be strange to walk into the vet which is very expensive and say some girl on a forum said she thinks there is something wrong but she doesnt know what...from pics she saw.. lol.. if you know what i mean...

[BarelyBreathing]

I can't put my finger on it, that's why I said "I don't know what it is". There just seems to be an "off" look about him, specifically in the third, fourth, and seventh photos. Did he develop abnormally? Was he injured a while ago? His his humidity up to par? There's just something that strikes me as off. I really hope it's nothing.

[millertime89]

I personally think he just looks overweight, but I could be wrong. I'm only basing this observation off of pictures that others have posted of seemingly healthy Savs.

[BlueButterfly]

everything temps humidity etc is good. basking spot is right. humidity is right, weve changed and altered everything as suggested to get everything to be as suggested..he is looking MUCH better then he did when we got him... as stated before when we got him he was on a diet of Tuna and scrambled egg. he now eats snails, worms, bugs, slugs, crickets, silkworms, etc etc... took us a while but he has taken to the change well.. he was originally kept in an exo terra... we built the new cage, he originally had bark mulch.. he now has soil sand peatmoss mix...he has a water tub etc... we bought the book wayne suggested... we have read it.. i cant tell you if he developed properly as i only got him a while ago... he looks like every other sav ive ever seen. he is missing one nail on his foot and looks like the tip of his tail unless it is supposed to be stubby like that.. could be that in the top pics he was eating snails, so shaking his head and bobbing etc chewing while i was snapping pics... maybe the angle? I have posted several pics of him before on here and no one has ever suggested he looked like something was wrong with him... yes i agree he is overweight.. probably because of his previous husbandry... conditions and diet etc.. likely wasnt kept at correct humidity in there or temp... to bad your not closer.. you could come check him out for yourself.. lol...maybe hands on would give a truer impression? anyone else see anything... and HOW do ni bring his weight down to a healthy level... as he has been fat since we got him.. no doubt from the tuna... and im guessing the salt from that would have done something to him.. anyone know any good sav drs in bc canada?

[Caylan]

I can't tell if theres, anything wrong, I'm not experienced with Monitors at all. But I am experienced in Progression, and that lizard has come quite a way in a short time, so I commend you on that :D

[mo9e64]

I could be wrong,but like BarelyBreathing said he looks overweight,if your temps are right,as in hot enough basking spot and cool end low eighties including in the substrate,you might have to adjust feeding.
If the cage is large enough,the monitor should be working off the extra weight.Though it might seem harmless certain activities for a monitor like walking on a leash might have counterproductive results-stress.Healthy monitors can handle stress-though the condition of the monitor has improved it's still compromised.Properly maintained monitors when allowed to get to full operating function are a handful,recover from injury,and stress.Not many have seen monitors in this state-Wayne is, with his baby Sav's,imagine them with the energy he describes at two feet long.

[infernalis]

Considering that this lizard needs the exercises, I would have to say the walks will do good, as long as he's not out of his enclosure for more than a couple hours at at a time, with the exception of 80 degree plus days, then by all means, the exploration and foraging is stimulating.

One of the things about Chomper that caught the attention of "the right people" was the fact that he had so much freedom.

[millertime89]

he looks like every other sav ive ever seen

and HOW do ni bring his weight down to a healthy level... as he has been fat since we got him.. no doubt from the tuna... and im guessing the salt from that would have done something to him.. anyone know any good sav drs in bc canada?

Not exactly a good thing when far too many are overweight.

I would say just keep doing what you're doing, maybe boost temps a bit to aid digestion and give him a little metabolism boost.

[BarelyBreathing]

Salt would explain what I am seeing, actually.

[BlueButterfly]

I figured the salt and murcury has probably done something to his system. It really is a shame. And it was HARD to get him to eat anything else after. But his favorite is snails. It's great to watch him actually RUN across the cage after crickets too. And he has a huge burrow under the ramp which he seems to never be done rearranging lol. He is so interesting to watch. He is a great hunter. I put worms in his soil and he loves to dig them up and i always make him find his food. We never just give it to him. He searches for it and sniffs out his prey. I was wondering if there are any live plants that are safe in there. Grass? Long grass or fern or something the snails and slugs worms crickets can munch so they have food that won't hurt Harley. Does anyone know? Also Wayne we only let him roam for about half hour to an hour at this point because it is new to him. And it's still not very warm here. We are back to rain now so his walks will have to be inside for now. Anyone know how I can set up a colony of garden snails. Just because they will go away when the rain stops. So I'd like to stalk pile them do he has them year round. They are easy to get right now. Just after rain. I brought in over a hundred yesterday. That will get him through for a while.
He won't touch mice anymore. Does he need these. Maybe the adult mice are to big? Should I try smaller ones. I won't do live mice. So is there anything else that can supplement whatever it is he gets from them. Should I be limiting his food? I Dono if he's eating to much because he hunts it so there is always food in there. I figure he will eat when he's Hungrey.

[millertime89]

Need mice? No, he most certainly does not need them.

Its nice to hear he's making improvements. If you check Wayne's enclosure build thread he's got grass in his, but it had a long time to take root before his little monsters got in there. A pothos or other hanging indoors plant might work well in your situation, just make sure its secured properly so that he doesn't pull it down if he decides to climb it.

[BarelyBreathing]

There are plenty of plants that are safe for Harley, but whether Harley will be safe for the plants is a different story. He will most likey dig them up, trample them, and otherwise destroy them. If you want to try, you can try really any type of hardy ground cover (mosses, grasses, pothos are great, too). Just tossing some collard greens is enough to distract your insects from bothering your monitor.

No, he doesn't need rodents, especially at his current weight. I would avoid those like the plague, too. :)

As far as raising garden snails, just give them a large, wet area complete with lots of greens for them to munch on. If you are gutloading your prey items correctly, there will be no need to supplement your prey items. If you aren't gutloading correctly, I recommend Repashy brand calcium plus.

[mo9e64]

Under improper husbandry you should not feed rodents,under proper husbandry a monitor should not become obese feeding on rodents.Feed based on your monitors condition and conditions.Your monitor appears obese,you need to look at your husbandry if you want further recovery.

[BlueButterfly]

Under improper husbandry you should not feed rodents,under proper husbandry a monitor should not become obese feeding on rodents.Feed based on your monitors condition and conditions.Your monitor appears obese,you need to look at your husbandry if you want further recovery.


he came to us really fat... he has actually lost a little bit in my opinion... he gets way more excersize now as they kept him in an exo terra and all he did was sit all day and eat tuna... now he runs around, digs, explores chases prey, hunts etc... i mean obviously we arent going to see a weight change overnight... is his weight because of our husbandry or his prev owner? we have only had him a little over a month or so now... how long until we see an improvement in weight?

[millertime89]

You don't want rapid weight loss, gradual is good. What's your hot spot at? Sorry if I missed it earlier.

[mo9e64]

That's a short time,so i might've been a little hard on you,i'm glad you didn't take it personally.Just don't underestimate how raising their metabolism might accomplish the weight loss without the possible stress.Remember this is still an animal that is compromised getting it healthy should be your first priority-you can't really be sure what effects social outings with humans does to it at it's current state.My point is if you're on the right path,why screw it up by stressing the monitor till you sure he is functioning properly.

[BarelyBreathing]

Kyle is correct, rapid weight loss is bad. Make him work for his food. Burying night crawlers in the substrate, making him chase crickets and roaches, all wonderful things. If you can teach him to tong feed, you may want to have him run around a room after some food. Take him outside for some natural sunlight a few times a week, give him rock or log piles to explore.

[Robyn@SYR]

Best of luck with your monitor.

[BlueButterfly]

ok, last night we planted the bottom floor with mosses and grass and it looks great..I didnt plant anything in his corner where he has his burrow... i also added more soil etc for him and filled the area under his ramp where he likes to dig the most with an extra tall mountain...there was a bit of room so why not. lol.. and i also added about an inch of peatmoss to the top floor it looks perdry... this morning he was down digging his burrow..and Im sure when i get home all the plants will need to be replanted...lol...but we will see.. ill take pics later..

his hot spot measured by thermometers....is at about 135 on top floor (measured by thermometor), about 98-101 (depending on time of day) top floor cool corner and bottom floor warm end is about 85-90 cool end is 70-80 on bottom floor under ramp... im guessing its cooler in the burrow..this is where he likes to sleep.

I still cant find a temp gun...weve been looking...can only find the ones at snap on for 150.00 where the heck can we get one in BC for cheap..or can i order online??? we need one... humidity is 30-40 under basking spot, between 60-70 top floor and 75-85 bottom floor. again..burrows are more... there is fogging of the glass is that bad? and when i open the cage it feels like im entering another climate.. hot and humid...whew... he seems to like it though...

is this ok?

[Lankyrob]

We ordered our off Ebay - just get one that doesnt mention "reptile" in the name or you will pay a lot more :)

[BarelyBreathing]

That sounds wonderful, Blue.

You can get an infra red temperature gun at any good hobby store (the kinds that sell parts to build RC cars and what not).

[varanus_mad]

Pro Exotics :: Temp Guns (http://www.proexotics.com/store/home.php?cat=248)

temperature guns | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=temperature+guns&_sacat=0)

Temp guns ^

[mo9e64]

fogging of the glass shows a difference in temps between the outside of the cage and inside-condensation.If you stick to the basics of limited ventilation,deep substrate low wattage bulbs with appropriate basking temps with a low end temp around 80F you don't need to worry about humidity just make sure your substrate doesn't dry out and is neither wet nor dry.
I might be concerned with a substrate temp of 70F,monitors like to burrow and will spend alot of time there,such a low temp will counteract the higher temps above substrate,there cool down temps should be around 80F from what i understand.

[infernalis]

I still cant find a temp gun...weve been looking...can only find the ones at snap on for 150.00 where the heck can we get one in BC for cheap..or can i order online??? we need one...

TempGun (http://www.tempgun.com)

http://www.varanus.us/husbandry/tempgun.jpg

[mo9e64]

I was just asking a question elsewhere on another forum because the one thing i've noticed is that cases where people leash walk their monitors don't usually end well-bring them up if you know any.But my question to some longtime keepers was what is the effect of leashwalking monitors at temps below what they are normally active at.Their answers were; they'll appear docile and tame,highly stressed both physically and mentally,moving at temps below what they are active at is hard on them.They made mention of them appearing healthy for periods of time and dying.They did not suggest that this was definitely the cause,or only cause, but was a common practice of those that had this unexplained death of aparently healthy monitors.
One thing i was told,previously as well was to check heart rate-if it is high your monitor is stressed despite outward appearance.
What they did not address which i was thinking about is the biology of reptiles,where an animal is active at certain temps anything below that is not exercise remembering these are not mammals but reptiles.
This post is not against exercise but methods of providing exercise without adverse effects;large cages with appropriate conditions,freerange of properly heated areas.
Remember there is no STRESS-O-METER you can buy,and just because you can't see it STRESS isn't there.If someone says that leashwalking is good exercise,it's featured on Youtube all the time,ask them to cite an example where it has worked out for the monitor in the longterm.

[infernalis]

I call "hogwash"

Reason being, nearly all of the people you are comparing this to are NOT supporting their animals correctly at home.

When FR can back up his theory with some data or evidence, it may hold merit, but for now it's just an opinion.

[mo9e64]

I said it was just opinion,just a possibility-so why do you call it hogwash.They admitted their only proof is the lack of sucess of those that practice this,and the end result that may or not not have occured from this practice.If there are examples to contradict this bring them up.You are encouraging this in people that are beginning or with animals which have been compromised,do you not see the contradiction.The people we are dealing with are still working on properly supporting their monitors-and those that do have properly supported monitors that I know don't encourage this activity,from many sites.Youtube has many hits on the monitor walking videos,since number of hits seems to be a rational for acceptance i guess you're right LOL

[Dehlida]

I actually agree with moe in some ways, in saying that the vast majority of people I see out walking a monitor on a leash- end up with a dead monitor. It's not a stab at wayne, or anyone else but what is the point of it? The animal doesn't need it, and should be getting all the stimulation it needs in the cage, it's more for the owner than the lizard.

That being said, I'm also all for certain species being used and taken out educationally, ones that are more tolerant of stress and varying conditions. I do not believe a sav is the right animal for "out of the cage exploration", it really seems to kill their life span somehow.

[infernalis]

.Youtube has many hits on the monitor walking videos,since number of hits seems to be a rational for acceptance i guess you're right LOL

I could care less about the hit count, those are sick, lethargic and usually overweight animals anyway.

[Dehlida]

I could care less about the hit count, those are sick, lethargic and usually overweight animals anyway.

Savannah monitors aren't built as tough as some other species available to the pet trade, and are horrible for "outdoor" activities in my book. I don't know anyone who's had theirs long term that goes on "outings" and is doing well and thriving. I can say I've known a few people with niles, waters, and black throats that go out and thrive. I'd say the same thing about indicus complex monitors... They belong in the cage.

[Mikey T]

its sad how cheap savs are.. there is a store here in montreal that will remain nameless, that have savs at regular price for 40$ and for the next month they are on special for 20$

[Mikey T]

btw... that ^^^^^^was my 100th post

[Dehlida]

its sad how cheap savs are.. there is a store here in montreal that will remain nameless, that have savs at regular price for 40$ and for the next month they are on special for 20$

I import and sell them for $25, but I at least try to educate people about them first.

[BlueButterfly]

He was literally out for 1/2 hour max. I don't take him on outings as in out for hours in the car. IMO letting him explore the back yard is no different then sitting him in a cage outside for natural sun. Which I've been told by more then one person to do.
LOL! Man...It's so hard to understand what's correct when everyone tells you different things and then you do what they say and others criticize you for it. I really wish I knew what the actual correct real true information was so I can best take care of Harley. That's why I came here. I appreciate all the help. But it gets confusing. Lol

[mo9e64]

Nobody said it would be easy,and yes it's your job LOL to figure out the right path.What's the price for a healthy monitor a little critism once in awhile that's not so bad.

[mo9e64]

We aren't really that different it's just where we set our priorities.I was taught and try to pass on through my experience trying to get base basic conditions.When it's so simple and you repeat it over and over it implies forcing your opinion on others when infact it just sets your monitor for your goals you set early like taming and breeding.

It has been shown for along time now that under the proper conditions these things are not important to focus on variety,uv lighting.And please read that this isn't to say not to use but you needn't worry about.When it comes to feeding it's about feeding quantity wise based on your conditions and the appropriate food.As far as UV light goes,give your monitor high enough basking temps and a good gradient of temps and humidity and your monitor will develop properly in combination with good feeding with UV light.
Where we differ is some will bring up data contradicting this,well the reality is many have been doing it this way for along time with monitors and other species.
Having been on these sites for over a couple of years i kinda see two approaches,where we control or where the monitors are given choices.
You'll notice that many poke fun of me for using catch phrases like RESULTS,used by the one who shall remain nameless,but it's the right word.When you make decisions on your approach wouldn't it make sense that you'd use one with the best results.And something to keep in mind that those who pioneered our hobby lost monitors,what we know now came at the expense of monitors lives.There is a bit of history amongst various people on these sites,i recommend making your own mind up-it's hard but i try to base things on merit not personality right is right no matter who says it.
After all that talk,sorry,i didn't find the first part that hard so far,raising a neonate to adulthood-there's the part i can only relate to by others experiences breeding and supporting adult female monitors that is the real challenge in monitor keeping from what i've read.