bad advice in shops

[uma_and_bill]

I was recently discussing with someone that the worse advice comes from shops, anyone agree?

[Jay]

It all depends who owns the shop, but generally yes they are uneducated or misinformed.

[marvelfreak]

I so agree. Years ago when i first got into snake i was told it was ok to keep Boas and Ball python together.

[mykee]

Most definitely.

[StudentoReptile]

Coming from over 10 yrs of experience working in pet stores, I would say YES, I agree!

With the extremely rare exception in the diehard herper who ends up working there, most pet stores echelons are high-schoolers and college folks, working part-time because "they like animals." They at best have basic caresheet knowledge (with more often than not, is inaccurate), and at worst, will make up stuff on the spot. Being a retail establishment, their solution to almost any problem is: buy something in their store to fix it. Snake not eating? Get another mouse and try again. Not shedding right? Buy some shed-ease. Not sure on the temps? Get a thermometer (not exactly bad advice, but they often sell only those sticky analog useless kind!). Found a box turtle on the side of the road? Get some canned box turtle diet. You get the picture.

I would venture to say that 90% of the problems new hobbyists have would go away if they complete avoided pet stores altogether. They have the highest prices for everything, and usually the worst source of knowledge and information.

[uma_and_bill]

Thanks guys, that's just what I thought, I'm going to avoid them in future, I'll get my gear online and come to you guys when I need some sensible advice ;-) x

[millertime89]

You're in the UK, PM lankyrob on here, if you're close to his area I know he's got a reputable pet shop near him that he frequents, worth the look.

[Lankyrob]

Sheffield is quite a long way from here but thanks for thinking of me Kyle :)

[millertime89]

No worries, I'm not too keen on the UK geography.

[Lankyrob]

No worries, I'm not too keen on the UK geography.

You probably have as much knowledge as i do of the US states :)

[bladeblaster]

If you look in the wrong place then the worst advise is on the Internet, without a doubt. If you listen to the right people it can be the best advice, same goes for shops, go to a good shop and you will get good advise.

[uma_and_bill]

Yes but how am I supposed to know what us advice and what is sales talk, there's just no way to do this except to listen to people like you who are in it for the love of and to substantiate as much as I can by having answers from a community x

[bladeblaster]

A lot of people in shops are in it for the love of the animals too. Being a good salesman, doesn't make your advice bad, necessarliy.

[shaunyboy]

like everyting in life,there are good and bad

if you research the species you want to keep,then speak to the guy in the shop about it,then imo,his answers will give you an idea of how knowledgable your local shop is

i have heard both good and bad advice,being given out by my local reptile shops

cheeers shaun

[Terranaut]

like everyting in life,there are good and bad

if you research the species you want to keep,then speak to the guy in the shop about it,then imo,his answers will give you an idea of how knowledgable your local shop is

i have heard both good and bad advice,being given out by my local reptile shops

cheeers shaun

The problem is most people research herps by asking the guy at the pet shop.
I agree , worst advice I have heard came from local pet shops.

[StudentoReptile]

The problem is most people research herps by asking the guy at the pet shop.
I agree , worst advice I have heard came from local pet shops.

Ditto. The pet store is regrettably the first stop when people start doing their homework. Its not like a breeder or online forums are in the local yellow pages.
----------------------
Among countless others, here are a few of the pearls of wisdom coming from pet store employees I've heard over the years:

1.) Chameleons don't need any special lighting, just heat. In fact, you can just put a heat pad on the side of the tank.

2.) Yeah, you can mix a python and a boa together, as long as they're close enough in size.

3.) Sure the baby turtles can live in that tiny kidney-shaped lagoon for now. Just make sure you get a tank and the proper lighting as soon as possible.

[bladeblaster]

Ditto. The pet store is regrettably the first stop when people start doing their homework. Its not like a breeder or online forums are in the local yellow pages.
----------------------
Among countless others, here are a few of the pearls of wisdom coming from pet store employees I've heard over the years:

2.) Yeah, you can mix a python and a boa together, as long as they're close enough in size.
.

Whats wrong with that?

[StudentoReptile]

Whats wrong with that?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b400/MDC_Leviathan/boaeatsBP-1.jpg

That's just one example. I have a photo of a Burmese eating a red-tail, and another of Dumeril's boa eating a BP somewhere. I apparently have misplaced them...though they were on my photobucket account...

I have personally witnessed situations of cornsnakes eating each other, spotted pythons eating each other, a bull snake eating a Dumeril's boa, and even a western hognose eating a sibling.

Cannibalism is certainly not exclusive to the genus Lampropeltis, but for some reason, people don't want to listen...until they lose a snake. Even then, they don't learn, and will continue making the same mistake.

In my first example, red-tails and ball pythons are two entirely different snakes from different continents. They have different diets, require different humidity levels and temperatures as well as habitat. There is no legitimate reason for putting them together. Anyone who claims to have done so "successfully" is fooling themselves. Aside from the issues regarding risk of pathogen and simple stress to both animals, there always exists the possibility of one snake ending up in the belly of the other.

[StudentoReptile]

To add to that, I wish I had a dollar for every customer who came to me and complained about all the problems they experienced after they put their snakes together. It didn't matter if it was a red-tail with a BP, or a Burmese with a red-tail, or whatever. It was always something: one or the other stopped eating, they would occasionally fight, one tried to eat the other a couple times, etc, etc. I would always ask them why they put them together in the first place, and usually the answer revolves them not having a second cage (either due to space or lack of money, or just mere laziness).

My response was always that trying to mix those species is compromising the health of both, and if they cannot provide the space for a second enclosure to keep them separate, they need to consider giving up one or the other. Because keeping them together is asking for trouble.

[bladeblaster]

that's not cannabalism, thats no more cannabalism than you eating a cow.

The risk of a RTB eating a Royal is tiny, OK its zero if they are seperate, but it is so tiny as to be neglegable. RTB's not Royals are notable reptile feeders, chances are the royal was eating or had just eaten and was mistaken for a rodent due to the scent. Any cohabiting has to be done with a high level of care, especially at feeding time.

The 2 animals pictured are clearly youngsters, the risk of youngsters eating each other is much higher, as they are much more likely to see anything as food. Co-habiting young snakes is a far riskier prospect than co-habiting adult snakes.

The requirements for a RTB and Royal are really not that different at all, you could happilt keep both with an 88 degree basking arean and 50 - 60% humidity.

Also you can only spread disease if a disease exists in the first place, which if quarantined properly, the risk of this should also be minimal.

I think you need to think things through a little more, your reasoning doesn't actually hold water.

[StudentoReptile]

that's not cannabalism, thats no more cannabalism than you eating a cow.

I understand that technically "cannibalism" is only when it involves members of the same species eating each other, so I admit my use of the term was inaccurate. Tonight I'll be happy to show you some photos of true cannibalism: i.e. red-tails eating red-tails and ball pythons eating ball pythons. The pics are on my home computer.

I also concur that the chances of it happening is rare, but my point is: why take the chance? Its like driving your car with an expired license plate. Sooner or later, you're gonna get caught, and get a ticket. How long are you push the envelope?

Some people choose to take the risk. I suppose I just value my animals a little more than that, is all.

I think you need to think things through a little more, your reasoning doesn't actually hold water.

I disagree. Are you saying that it is beneficial to house these two species together? That keepers should throw the "better safe than sorry" mentality out the window?

Again, I maintain that there is NO legitimate reason to house them together. You can't even breed them together. So again I ask: why take the risk?

[Aaron_S]

that's not cannabalism, thats no more cannabalism than you eating a cow.

The risk of a RTB eating a Royal is tiny, OK its zero if they are seperate, but it is so tiny as to be neglegable. RTB's not Royals are notable reptile feeders, chances are the royal was eating or had just eaten and was mistaken for a rodent due to the scent. Any cohabiting has to be done with a high level of care, especially at feeding time.

The 2 animals pictured are clearly youngsters, the risk of youngsters eating each other is much higher, as they are much more likely to see anything as food. Co-habiting young snakes is a far riskier prospect than co-habiting adult snakes.

The requirements for a RTB and Royal are really not that different at all, you could happilt keep both with an 88 degree basking arean and 50 - 60% humidity.

Also you can only spread disease if a disease exists in the first place, which if quarantined properly, the risk of this should also be minimal.

I think you need to think things through a little more, your reasoning doesn't actually hold water.


The best reason I'll ever ask for is why take ANY risk in the first place?


That isn't a youngster boa, that's easily 4 - 5 feet and could be an adult male. We don't know.


The amount of people who generally place their animals in co-habitation are people I find who don't buy animals from the most reputable places and thus have disease and other random findings in their animals. Honestly, I see enough "help my snake is sick!" or "What is this wheezing?" questions on forums to know that there is disease and enough of it goes around.

On the same topic, if you happen to get an RI or whatever with one snake why do you want to double up on everything because you have two animals in an enclosure instead of one. That's double meds, double vet checks and in the end you'll end up having to seperate them as I highly doubt the stress of living with another solitary animal won't help them heal.

[hellosugaree]

Depends on who is running the store and working there, but yeah--some can be pretty terrible. I've hear stupid stuff regurgitated here and all over the internet as well. Bad advice can come from many places :)

[bladeblaster]

I understand that technically "cannibalism" is only when it involves members of the same species eating each other, so I admit my use of the term was inaccurate. Tonight I'll be happy to show you some photos of true cannibalism: i.e. red-tails eating red-tails and ball pythons eating ball pythons. The pics are on my home computer.

I also concur that the chances of it happening is rare, but my point is: why take the chance? Its like driving your car with an expired license plate. Sooner or later, you're gonna get caught, and get a ticket. How long are you push the envelope?

Some people choose to take the risk. I suppose I just value my animals a little more than that, is all.



I disagree. Are you saying that it is beneficial to house these two species together? That keepers should throw the "better safe than sorry" mentality out the window?

Again, I maintain that there is NO legitimate reason to house them together. You can't even breed them together. So again I ask: why take the risk?

I am not disagreeing that the risk isn't there, and no I see no benefit in housing a BP with a RTB at all. They are extremes though in terms of distribution. What about a python and colubrid form the same region, or a burm and a retic?

Personally it's not something I would choose to do, however with the proper care, and a large enough enclosure, I don;t see why it 'can't' be done. The reason most people have problems co-habiting anything is because they don;t realise the work involved in doing it 'properly'

[bladeblaster]

The best reason I'll ever ask for is why take ANY risk in the first place?


That isn't a youngster boa, that's easily 4 - 5 feet and could be an adult male. We don't know.


The amount of people who generally place their animals in co-habitation are people I find who don't buy animals from the most reputable places and thus have disease and other random findings in their animals. Honestly, I see enough "help my snake is sick!" or "What is this wheezing?" questions on forums to know that there is disease and enough of it goes around.

On the same topic, if you happen to get an RI or whatever with one snake why do you want to double up on everything because you have two animals in an enclosure instead of one. That's double meds, double vet checks and in the end you'll end up having to seperate them as I highly doubt the stress of living with another solitary animal won't help them heal.

Why keep a snake at all, it may get burn't, the stat might fail, anything could happen. Prob best not walk my dog either it might get a splinter.

that RTB is no where near 5ft, and is nowhere near being adult. male or not.

what makes you say snakes are solitary animals?

[StudentoReptile]

Thanks, Aaron.

I understand that there are a few cases where both zoos and private keepers have had success mixed-species habitats. However. most of these cases involve a biotope, and flora/fauna from a specific region. They take into account each species' behavior, diet, adult size, etc.

Like yours, my observations is that MOST people that are doing this are just tossing random species of herps in one enclosure with little thought put into it, similar to stocking a tropical fish aquarium (of course, there's issues with that as well, but that's another rabbit trail). My opinion is that for the most part, snakes are solitary, anti-social creatures. With the exception of breeding, they do not associate much with other snakes, conspecifics or otherwise. Another exception is the hibernation (or brumation) dens that attract large numbers of garter snakes, rattlesnakes, ratsnakes and copperheads in various areas of North America.

In captivity, trying to force a snake to co-habitate with another one will undoubtedly add stress to one or both animals. I have personally witnessed this countless times, both early on in my own collection and with others. One snake or both snakes almost invariably go off feed, sometimes grow more irritable, etc. I suppose if the enclosure is large and spacious enough, it can be done well, but few hobbyists are willing to do this. Even then, there are no advantages or benefits to the animals by housing them together. It is only for the benefit of the keeper, usually for conveniences' sake.

[StudentoReptile]

that RTB is no where near 5ft, and is nowhere near being adult. male or not.


Its all relative. There's nothing substantial in the photo for reference to accurately determine the size, and your phrasing "no where near 5 ft" is open to interpretation anyway (what is "near" 5 ft to you or me?).

Also, the genetics and lineage of the animal is questionable. Who knows, maybe it has Central American in it, and it is mature? I don't have the answer either, it isn't my snake. Just pointing out that it is naive to be so certain of the animal's size and maturity.

[bladeblaster]

Thanks, Aaron.

I understand that there are a few cases where both zoos and private keepers have had success mixed-species habitats. However. most of these cases involve a biotope, and flora/fauna from a specific region. They take into account each species' behavior, diet, adult size, etc.

Like yours, my observations is that MOST people that are doing this are just tossing random species of herps in one enclosure with little thought put into it, similar to stocking a tropical fish aquarium (of course, there's issues with that as well, but that's another rabbit trail). My opinion is that for the most part, snakes are solitary, anti-social creatures. With the exception of breeding, they do not associate much with other snakes, conspecifics or otherwise. Another exception is the hibernation (or brumation) dens that attract large numbers of garter snakes, rattlesnakes, ratsnakes and copperheads in various areas of North America.

In captivity, trying to force a snake to co-habitate with another one will undoubtedly add stress to one or both animals. I have personally witnessed this countless times, both early on in my own collection and with others. One snake or both snakes almost invariably go off feed, sometimes grow more irritable, etc. I suppose if the enclosure is large and spacious enough, it can be done well, but few hobbyists are willing to do this. Even then, there are no advantages or benefits to the animals by housing them together. It is only for the benefit of the keeper, usually for conveniences' sake.

you are resorting to making huge sweeping generalisations to justify your point, some of which are not even remotely true, some are true in a small number of cases, and some are 'generally' true. However you are using them all as universal facts.

If you are going to enter into a debate its best to stick to facts, rather than conjecture, and broad sweeping generalisations.

[bladeblaster]

Its all relative. There's nothing substantial in the photo for reference to accurately determine the size, and your phrasing "no where near 5 ft" is open to interpretation anyway (what is "near" 5 ft to you or me?).

Also, the genetics and lineage of the animal is questionable. Who knows, maybe it has Central American in it, and it is mature? I don't have the answer either, it isn't my snake. Just pointing out that it is naive to be so certain of the animal's size and maturity.

if you really can't tell thats not an adult RTB, then you haven't seen many RTB's

and to suggest it has CA blood in it is a joke TBH

[StudentoReptile]

Bladeblaster, can you provide any factual evidence that it is advantageous or beneficial to keep a red-tail boa and a ball python in the same enclosure?

My "opinions" are based on my own experiences and that of others. This makes them FACT. Just because I didn't get a grant from a university and spend thousands of dollars of tax-payers money, and compromised the lives of a bunch of snakes doing experiments doesn't make my point any less valid. So far, I have yet to come across any evidence that indicates this practice is beneficial to the animals involved. At best, they tolerate it and "survive." At worst...well, you saw the photo, and like I said, I'll post more later if you're not convinced.

So again: can you provide any factual evidence that it is advantageous or beneficial to keep a red-tail boa and a ball python in the same enclosure? If not, then we'll agree to disagree.

I'm done arguing about the red-tail in the photo. It is a red-tailed boa eating a ball python, and my only purpose for posting it was to show that it can happen. Not to determine the age, size, and locality of the snake.

[bladeblaster]

Bladeblaster, can you provide any factual evidence that it is advantageous or beneficial to keep a red-tail boa and a ball python in the same enclosure?

My "opinions" are based on my own experiences and that of others. This makes them FACT. Just because I didn't get a grant from a university and spend thousands of dollars of tax-payers money, and compromised the lives of a bunch of snakes doing experiments doesn't make my point any less valid. So far, I have yet to come across any evidence that indicates this practice is beneficial to the animals involved. At best, they tolerate it and "survive." At worst...well, you saw the photo, and like I said, I'll post more later if you're not convinced.

So again: can you provide any factual evidence that it is advantageous or beneficial to keep a red-tail boa and a ball python in the same enclosure? If not, then we'll agree to disagree.

I'm done arguing about the red-tail in the photo. It is a red-tailed boa eating a ball python, and my only purpose for posting it was to show that it can happen. Not to determine the age, size, and locality of the snake.

I never said it was beneficial to keep a BP and a RTB together, in fact I have already stated that I do not think it is beneficial.

You are the one using your 'opinion' as fact, I am pointing out that they are not facts, mearly opinions. You state that snakes are solitary creatures, can I ask how much field herping you have done to be able to declare this as a fact?

I am not specfically debating keeping a BP and an RTB together, your sweeping statement was that you cannot keep a boa and a python together. I have chosen to debate this, because I think it is possible to do so, with the proper consideration.

You used the photo in question as an argument for not cohabiting a boa and a python, therefor everything in that picture is relevant, and if the RTB is over 2ft then I will eat my hat. You can tell by the head and body shape / musculature that snake is round about 12 months old.

[shaunyboy]

The problem is most people research herps by asking the guy at the pet shop.
I agree , worst advice I have heard came from local pet shops.

^^^^^
i hear what your saying and agree,a lot of people wander into reptile shops,then take everything the shop owners say as gospel

back in the day,i volenteered to work weekends for free at a local shop,so i could get some hands on experience,the owners had a reasonable knowledge over a wide range of reptiles.i also used to deal with any trips to the vets,as the owners did not drive

their knowledge gave me a starting point for my own research,i found out they were correct on a lot of things,but wrong on others,also the vet trips gave me excellent hands on experience,without any of my own snakes being sick

people need to do their OWN research,how we get folk to do that,i have NO answer to i'm afraid mate

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

You state that snakes are solitary creatures, can I ask how much field herping you have done to be able to declare this as a fact?

Admittedly and regrettably not much. I suppose we could now debate the semantics and definitions of what exactly constitutes "social" or "solitary" behavior in a particular animal. I will acknowledge that it varies with the species (actually heard some very enlightening research done on the parental behavior of rattlesnakes recently), but in general, one does not see hordes of snakes gathering in herds, communing with each other, engaging in cooperative offspring-rearing, foraging/hunting in groups, etc. They rarely associate with each other outside of courtship/reproduction and hibernaculum.

Some may have different opinions on this, but I do try to keep up with current information. I don't have the time to go out in the field and observe every single species of snake on the planet to satisfy the likes of people like you who feel that booksmarts are utterly worthless, but oh well...that is something I have come to accept a long time ago because my schedule does not permit me to do so often. I just have to live vicariously through everyone else and learn through what is written in the meantime.

I am not specfically debating keeping a BP and an RTB together, your sweeping statement was that you cannot keep a boa and a python together. I have chosen to debate this, because I think it is possible to do so, with the proper consideration.

Perhaps I have not made myself clear. Obviously, it "can" be done because careless fools do it all the time. My point is that the vast majority of the time, it shouldn't be done, because most keepers cannot or will not make the proper accommodations.

[Aaron_S]

I never said it was beneficial to keep a BP and a RTB together, in fact I have already stated that I do not think it is beneficial.

You are the one using your 'opinion' as fact, I am pointing out that they are not facts, mearly opinions. You state that snakes are solitary creatures, can I ask how much field herping you have done to be able to declare this as a fact?

I am not specfically debating keeping a BP and an RTB together, your sweeping statement was that you cannot keep a boa and a python together. I have chosen to debate this, because I think it is possible to do so, with the proper consideration.

You used the photo in question as an argument for not cohabiting a boa and a python, therefor everything in that picture is relevant, and if the RTB is over 2ft then I will eat my hat. You can tell by the head and body shape / musculature that snake is round about 12 months old.


I'm only here for the picture debate now.

Based on the colouration, columbian boas change colour from neonate to adulthood, and the size relation to that ball python it's well over 12 months old.

If you want more proof, take a look at that picture in the paper to the bottom right. Given that we all know a newspaper looks like and can speak in general terms we'll say that it's easily 4 inches in length. Using that same picture as a referral we can than infer that the snake is longer than 24 inches as I can see more than 6 of those pictures next to that animals length.

Prepare to eat your hat...

[bladeblaster]

They rarely associate with each other outside of courtship/reproduction and hibernaculum.



Perhaps I have not made myself clear. Obviously, it "can" be done because careless fools do it all the time. My point is that the vast majority of the time, it shouldn't be done, because most keepers cannot or will not make the proper accommodations.

Well I can tell you from field herping, find one snake and you will find a bunch of snakes, different species, same species, males, females. Often 6 or 7 under on log, or whatever they have chosen to hide under, or even in the open together in groups. Not always sometimes of course there will be one on its own, but more often than not there are several.

Now that last statement is much nearer the truth. ;)

[bladeblaster]

I'm only here for the picture debate now.

Based on the colouration, columbian boas change colour from neonate to adulthood, and the size relation to that ball python it's well over 12 months old.

If you want more proof, take a look at that picture in the paper to the bottom right. Given that we all know a newspaper looks like and can speak in general terms we'll say that it's easily 4 inches in length. Using that same picture as a referral we can than infer that the snake is longer than 24 inches as I can see more than 6 of those pictures next to that animals length.

Prepare to eat your hat...


That picture is around an inch and a half

[StudentoReptile]

Well I can tell you from field herping, find one snake and you will find a bunch of snakes, different species, same species, males, females. Often 6 or 7 under on log, or whatever they have chosen to hide under, or even in the open together in groups. Not always sometimes of course there will be one on its own, but more often than not there are several.

Now that last statement is much nearer the truth. ;)

Maybe its different over there across the pond, but anytime I have been field-herping, that has been the exception, more than the rule. I have found a decent number of snakes in a particular area (say, a 3-mile stretch in southern Illinois), but the most I ever found underneath a stone was 2.

I have several friends that practically field-herp every idle moment of their lives, and I rarely hear of them finding groups of snakes under a single log or rock, or whatever.

[bladeblaster]

Maybe its different over there across the pond, but anytime I have been field-herping, that has been the exception, more than the rule. I have found a decent number of snakes in a particular area (say, a 3-mile stretch in southern Illinois), but the most I ever found underneath a stone was 2.

I have several friends that practically field-herp every idle moment of their lives, and I rarely hear of them finding groups of snakes under a single log or rock, or whatever.

most of my field herping has been done in california :wacky:

[StudentoReptile]

most of my field herping has been done in california :wacky:

I suppose the area is different then, along with the species endemic to it.

All of my experience is been in the Southeast, in during spring and summer.

[bladeblaster]

I suppose the area is different then, along with the species endemic to it.

All of my experience is been in the Southeast, in during spring and summer.

I woukd have thought you would have plenty of snakes that hang around in groups down there, corns, garters?

Whenever I have found garters in california, they are usually in a ball of 3 or 4.

Perhaps its just californians are friendlier :yes:

[StudentoReptile]

I woukd have thought you would have plenty of snakes that hang around in groups down there, corns, garters?

Maybe you don't know as much you thought! :D (sorry, I couldn't resist)

Whenever I have found garters in california, they are usually in a ball of 3 or 4.

Perhaps its just californians are friendlier :yes:

Possibly. Again, I don't know everything about every single species of snake. I can only go by what I have observed and what I have read. And based on my observations of snakes both in captivity and in the field, as well as the findings of others with more experience than myself, coupled with the general definitions of what constitutes "social behavior" in the animal kingdom, I still consider most snakes to be solitary creatures.

You're more than welcome to disagree until the cows come home, but it is what it is.

[Aaron_S]

That picture is around an inch and a half

The footballer is not an inch and a half.

You sir have never seen a boa I believe. I'm done with this argument. You're reasoning for it being such small animals is false and not based on any facts. The ball python itself is a mere 20 inches or so, I should know, I have plenty, and the boa dwarfs it in size by at least double or triple that in length.

[Aaron_S]

I woukd have thought you would have plenty of snakes that hang around in groups down there, corns, garters?

Whenever I have found garters in california, they are usually in a ball of 3 or 4.

Perhaps its just californians are friendlier :yes:

Garters are the exception to the rule of solitary. They actually tend to be social. They are good to keep with multiples in an enclosure.

[bladeblaster]

Garters are the exception to the rule of solitary. They actually tend to be social. They are good to keep with multiples in an enclosure.

they are not an exception to the 'rule' at all. There are just one of many snakes that behave this way.

It's funny because none of the snakes I have encountered know anout these 'rules' that herpers make up for them.

[bladeblaster]

The footballer is not an inch and a half.

You sir have never seen a boa I believe. I'm done with this argument. You're reasoning for it being such small animals is false and not based on any facts. The ball python itself is a mere 20 inches or so, I should know, I have plenty, and the boa dwarfs it in size by at least double or triple that in length.


you guys must have some huge newspapers thats all I can say. I am sorry but I am just not seeing what you are seeing.

[StudentoReptile]

they are not an exception to the 'rule' at all. There are just one of many snakes that behave this way.

It's funny because none of the snakes I have encountered know anout these 'rules' that herpers make up for them.

Well then, it sounds like you're really on to something here. Perhaps you start should documenting your findings and compare notes with other field biologists. I am curious as to exactly what species you have observed such "social behavior" in, and precisely what areas.

For someone who seems to be very adamantly against blanket statements and generalizations and mere opinions, I would like to know if the same behaviors are being observed in similar species all across the U.S. and not just California (where as you claim most of your experience has been).

BTW, I would suggest practicing what you preach and doing a little more research as to exactly what the scientific community considers as "social behavior" and what criteria qualifies a particular species to be a social animal.

I'm not discrediting your personal experiences, but have you considered that perhaps you just happen to be particularly lucky at finding snakes? Again, I would like to hear experiences from other avid field herpers in the same area(s).

[bladeblaster]

Well then, it sounds like you're really on to something here. Perhaps you start should documenting your findings and compare notes with other field biologists. I am curious as to exactly what species you have observed such "social behavior" in, and precisely what areas.

For someone who seems to be very adamantly against blanket statements and generalizations and mere opinions, I would like to know if the same behaviors are being observed in similar species all across the U.S. and not just California (where as you claim most of your experience has been).

BTW, I would suggest practicing what you preach and doing a little more research as to exactly what the scientific community considers as "social behavior" and what criteria qualifies a particular species to be a social animal.

I'm not discrediting your personal experiences, but have you considered that perhaps you just happen to be particularly lucky at finding snakes? Again, I would like to hear experiences from other avid field herpers in the same area(s).

I am not extending my own experience to re-defining snake behaviour, I certainly have not experienced enough snakes to make that sort of jump. I have nothing against opinion and conjecture as long as it is not presented as fact.

I have not done any sort of documentation that could even begin to redefine how we look at snake behaviour, however I have seen enough to be sure for myself, that they are not entirely solitary animals. I certainly wouldn;t extend this to suggesting a 'community behaviour' but they certainly do not deliberately avoid each other and do not suffer any stress by being in the presence of other snakes.

[StudentoReptile]

I am not extending my own experience to re-defining snake behaviour, I certainly have not experienced enough snakes to make that sort of jump. I have nothing against opinion and conjecture as long as it is not presented as fact.

Well, if I witness something with my own two eyeballs occurring more than once with animals I've worked with, and have had others witness the same thing with animals they've kept....it happened = FACT. Just because it wasn't published in a scientific journal or Reptiles Magazine does not make it not valid.

It is one thing for me to come on here and say that baby ball pythons feed better on live versus f/t without ever keeping a baby BP and have no foundation or basis for my opinion. But I have kept and raised many baby BPs over the years, and in my personal experience, I get better feeding responses feeding live adult mice than I do f/t. That is my opinion based on personal experience. If others have had similar experiences, then it can reasonably be called "fact." There are a few people out there that have success feeding baby BPs f/t, but in MY experience, based on my own observations and conversations with others in the BP community, that is not the norm. (BTW, this is not about BPs eating f/t or live, so lets not go there, I'm just using this as an example).

I have not done any sort of documentation that could even begin to redefine how we look at snake behaviour, however I have seen enough to be sure for myself, that they are not entirely solitary animals. I certainly wouldn;t extend this to suggesting a 'community behaviour' but they certainly do not deliberately avoid each other and do not suffer any stress by being in the presence of other snakes.

Now see, there is a difference in nature where these animals have the ability get away from each other. With the exception of courtship and reproduction, it is my understanding that these snakes are not specifically seeking each other out, and what you are seeing is more likely a case of snake #1 entering the log from the south, and snake #2 entering from the north. They are both just seeking shelter and just so happened to select the same location. If either species is not feeling particular ophiophagus or territorial that day, they will often tolerate each others presence for the greater good; i.e. remaining in a choice hiding spot.

Things are a little bit different in captivity when you're forcing two species that will NEVER encounter each other naturally to co-exist in a relatively-small enclosed space. Since there is no field accounts of how red-tails and ball pythons interact with each other in the wild (obviously, since they're found in different continents), our only observations are in captive environments. And with very few exceptions, the results are not good.

If we were talking about keeping a cornsnake and a grey rat snake in the same enclosure, the situation may not be as dire. But again, we're talking about mixing a large neo-tropical arboreal constrictor with a small/medium savannah/grassland constrictor. Can they be kept together? Sure. Should they? No.

[bladeblaster]

Well, if I witness something with my own two eyeballs occurring more than once with animals I've worked with, and have had others witness the same thing with animals they've kept....it happened = FACT. Just because it wasn't published in a scientific journal or Reptiles Magazine does not make it not valid.

It is one thing for me to come on here and say that baby ball pythons feed better on live versus f/t without ever keeping a baby BP and have no foundation or basis for my opinion. But I have kept and raised many baby BPs over the years, and in my personal experience, I get better feeding responses feeding live adult mice than I do f/t. That is my opinion based on personal experience. If others have had similar experiences, then it can reasonably be called "fact." There are a few people out there that have success feeding baby BPs f/t, but in MY experience, based on my own observations and conversations with others in the BP community, that is not the norm. (BTW, this is not about BPs eating f/t or live, so lets not go there, I'm just using this as an example).



Now see, there is a difference in nature where these animals have the ability get away from each other. With the exception of courtship and reproduction, it is my understanding that these snakes are not specifically seeking each other out, and what you are seeing is more likely a case of snake #1 entering the log from the south, and snake #2 entering from the north. They are both just seeking shelter and just so happened to select the same location. If either species is not feeling particular ophiophagus or territorial that day, they will often tolerate each others presence for the greater good; i.e. remaining in a choice hiding spot.

Things are a little bit different in captivity when you're forcing two species that will NEVER encounter each other naturally to co-exist in a relatively-small enclosed space. Since there is no field accounts of how red-tails and ball pythons interact with each other in the wild (obviously, since they're found in different continents), our only observations are in captive environments. And with very few exceptions, the results are not good.

If we were talking about keeping a cornsnake and a grey rat snake in the same enclosure, the situation may not be as dire. But again, we're talking about mixing a large neo-tropical arboreal constrictor with a small/medium savannah/grassland constrictor. Can they be kept together? Sure. Should they? No.

yes you are exactly right, in captivity you take away their choices, in the wild they can bugger off when ever they want.

I actually agree with almost all of what you have said, I just wanted to debate it, out of interest ;)

[StudentoReptile]

yes you are exactly right, in captivity you take away their choices, in the wild they can bugger off when ever they want.

Indeed. And you have to remember that I spent 10+ yrs dealing with idiots in pet stores. Anytime I came across someone keeping two different species of snake together, it was ALWAYS because: they didn't have a second cage t separate them. And the reasons were always: don't have enough money, don't enough space, it's just easier for me, etc. I NEVER encountered anyone who said "Hey, I wanna keep a ___ with a ____. What would be the best way to accomplish this and not compromise the health of the animals?"

I actually agree with almost all of what you have said, I just wanted to debate it, out of interest ;)

I'm used to it. And if you haven't noticed, I sometimes like to argue for the heck of it anyway, too.

But I hope you see what I was saying with the whole opinion vs fact thing. Kinda like I was alluding to in that other thread, it is your opinion that ball pythons are boring. But it is a fact that 90% of the time, you never see your snake active and crawling around outside of its hide. So your opinion is based on factual evidence, no?

[bladeblaster]

But I hope you see what I was saying with the whole opinion vs fact thing. Kinda like I was alluding to in that other thread, it is your opinion that ball pythons are boring. But it is a fact that 90% of the time, you never see your snake active and crawling around outside of its hide. So your opinion is based on factual evidence, no?

I know, just pushing some buttons :)

There are very few 'facts' when it comes to reptiles because there has been nowhere near enough study done on their behaviour to present anything as fact.

I was just playing :sorry:

You are also right 99% of people who ask about co-habiting are wanting to do it for all the wrong reasons :unibrow:

[emmabee]

interesting debate!



Yes but how am I supposed to know what us advice and what is sales talk, there's just no way to do this except to listen to people like you who are in it for the love of and to substantiate as much as I can by having answers from a community x

to add to this topic there are some cracking shops around the sheffield/derbyshire area with great knowledge but you cant expect the owner/workers to have a total knowledge of every species they sell, finding a place who have a good broad knowledge is hard but they are around!

its always useful to know who to ask about a particuar species and the foums provide a good base for this, but you need to use your own judgement and listen to what your animals are telling you too, after all they are the ones who know if your doing it right for them!

[StudentoReptile]

interesting debate!

to add to this topic there are some cracking shops around the sheffield/derbyshire area with great knowledge but you cant expect the owner/workers to have a total knowledge of every species they sell, finding a place who have a good broad knowledge is hard but they are around!

its always useful to know who to ask about a particuar species and the foums provide a good base for this, but you need to use your own judgement and listen to what your animals are telling you too, after all they are the ones who know if your doing it right for them!

Ditto! The key is NOT to rely on a singular source of information. If you read or hear something from a pet store clerk, go follow-up on it with some homework. If the information you get from online forums, books, magazine articles, and/or just talking with experienced herpers who have worked with that species firsthand is conflicting with what the pet store guy says...you have your answer.

Of course, you have to evaluate experience, as well as the numbers game. For example, I may take heed the advice of one person I know has had the experience with said species over the advice of 3 people I know have had no experience with that species, you know?