Keeping Baytril on hand?

[Spaghetti]

So, I've been officially bitten by the giant snake bug. Joe has doubled his weight and grown almost a foot since I got him and is now all blue-eyed and ready to shed yet again. He's come a long way from that very rough start he had in February!

Anyways, I've now made plans to acquire a retic (looking for a tiger or super tiger) and, given my plans to buy a new (much bigger) house within the next six months, I have a feeling that this is only the beginning of my collection...particularly as far as retics go.

I was wondering....I've heard of people keeping baytril on hand at all times for these species, as they are prone to RIs. How does one go about doing that? With Joe, the vet charged me an exorbitant price for only 10 doses. Also, I had to get an appointment to see him. Now that I'm comfortable injecting the drug, I'd like to have some on hand just for emergencies, since I'll be keeping these species. Problem is, I have no idea how to acquire the baytril. Can anyone offer some advice on this?

[mykee]

It's illegal to acquire medication to keep "on hand" without a prescription.

[RandyRhoads]

Talk to your vet, if he already gave you a prescription, what's the issue...?

[mykee]

If you have left over sure, but vets generally only prescribe enough for a cycle.

[shaunyboy]

If you have left over sure, but vets generally only prescribe enough for a cycle.

experienced keepers with a good relationship with their vets can purchase baytrill over here in the uk

i preffer ORAL baytril,over injectable baytril

on the box of ORAL baytril comes in are the following instruction.....

keep container in the outer box

store in a dry place

do not store over 25 degree's

following withdrawal of the first dose,use within 28 days.discard unused material

i bought mines as i was treating a python with on going lung problems,the secondary symptoms were respiritory infections,so i needed to have it on hand

being honest i would NOT buy another bottle,as its very expensive and its highly unlikely you would finish a bottle within 28 days of opening it

so imo its way more economical,to just buy what you need when you need to treat a snake (it's £35 per 100ml bottle)

i have only ever had 2 cases of respiritory infections,in all the time i've kept morelia

one was a snake i got for nothing,at the end of an expo

the other was the jag with on going lung problems,who died around 4 years of age.even key hole surgery could not identify,what was wrong with the jags respiritory system

^^^^^
both the above snakes were from the SAME breeder...!!

i would just buy it when required mate

cheers shaun

[insignia100]

Baytril is VERY expensive, even for vets. When you add the markup (hey, vets HAVE to make money, as much as people hate to hear that), it does get expensive. Like mykee said, it is illegal to keep medications "on hand" without a prescription. And technically, since most drugs (Baytril included) are extra label for reptiles, you have to have a specific prescription for a specific animal for a specific diagnosed disease. I.e., a law-abiding vet who wishes to keep his licence would never script out an entire bottle/vial of Baytril for a reptile keeper to have "on hand."

[Spaghetti]

Hmm...wow. I could have sworn I heard of people with large collections doing this...but, it's not a big deal. I was just wondering. Thanks for the input everyone! :D

[insignia100]

Hmm...wow. I could have sworn I heard of people with large collections doing this...but, it's not a big deal. I was just wondering. Thanks for the input everyone! :D

I'm sure you did, but its not legal.

For me, it wouldn't be worth the risk of putting my licence on the line to script out a whole bottle of Baytril like that. Considering how hard I'm working now to become a vet, I'd rather have a few clients pissed at me than lose everything I've worked for. ;)

[Lankyrob]

Surely every occureence of a RI would need a separate culture taken in order to know whether Baytril will be effective anyway??

[shaunyboy]

Surely every occureence of a RI would need a separate culture taken in order to know whether Baytril will be effective anyway??

i got both snakes cultured before getting the baytril Rob

imo,it's always better to have swabs cultured,so you know exactly what your dealing with,which tells you whats the best anti biotic to treat it with

baytril is a broad spectrum antibiotic

i have found it's sometimes given out as a general treatment,without swabs being cultured (i do NOT agree with this)

cheers shaun

[insignia100]

Presumably, the most appropriate way to approach treatment would be to take a swab for culture and sensitivity, then start empirically-based antibiotic treatment while waiting for the results of the culture and sensitivity. While not perfect, many doctors will opt to just treat using Baytril, foregoing the culture and sensitivity because 99 times out of 100 Baytril will get it. This empirical method of treatment isn't appropriate for everything, but oftentimes it works fine because of the limited bacterial causes (such is RIs).

One thing to keep in mind is that many people will take their animals in and refuse a culture and sensitivity due to cost. In such cases you pretty much have to treat empirically.

[mykee]

The one and only respiratory infection I had was Baytril-resistant. I know of others who have had the same experiences as me. After talking with the vet at the U of Guelph Small Animal Clinic (without a doubt the preeminent reptile vets in Canada) I was told that due to vets prescribing Baytril willy nilly without a swab or culture, he is seeing a lot more Baytril-resistant bacteria emerge. Within a decade or more, Baytril will be useless due to lazy vet practices.

[insignia100]

That sounds like more of a clinical impression to me. I doubt there are many, if any, studies regarding enrofloxacin-resistance in reptiles. A quick search did not bring up much, though I did find one article that may be of interest.

Pseudomonas and Aeromonas isolates from domestic reptiles and study of their antimicrobial in vitro sensitivity (http://www.springerlink.com/content/d82lh4p16118617g/)

Unfortunately the article would cost $35 to buy.

I agree that prescribing a single drug is a bad idea, but I hardly think the cause is "lazy vet practices." Baytril became widespread in reptile medicine for a reason -- it is broad-spectrum and works against many bacteria, and its safe for reptiles. Unfortunately we'll have to find other drugs, but you can't fault vets for using an excellent drug for so many years. ;)

[mykee]

I can (and will) fault them for prescribing Baytril without the proper tests to determine it's usefullness.
Baytril is so 1987 too due to it's necrotizing factors, those in the "know" use Fortaz (Ceftazidime).

[hellosugaree]

If your snake get's sick you should go to a vet each time anyway. Problem solved. If you animal is getting sick enough that you feel you need to keep medicines on hand then maybe something isn't right with husbandry?

[Spaghetti]

I've only had one RI. I just wanted to ask, since the snakes that I will be keeping are prone to them.

[infernalis]

surely covered already, it's not prudent to diagnose your own animals.

[shaunyboy]

surely covered already, it's not prudent to diagnose your own animals.

^^^^^
i agree with you regards this thread Wayne

but for more experienced keepers,who have " access " to " good " lab facilitys,it's easy to take swabs and send them away to be cultured

heres a link to the type of place i'd use here in the uk,they send you out kits,that you use to take swabs

Pinmoore Animal Laboratory Services Limited (http://www.palsvetlab.co.uk/)

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

I personally can't stand Baytril. It's not effective against all the types of bacteria that commonly cause RI in snakes, and it can be very damaging to the skin if not injected properly. It is technically illegal to keep any prescription medication on hand without a prescription...however if your vet gives you a prescription for it you can order it from an online pharmacy. It will be very expensive though.

A much more cost-effective, safe and reliable medication to keep around is Tylan (Tylosin). This is a liquid antibiotic developed for cattle and livestock pneumonia. It can be bought at the Tractor Supply Company chain of stores without a prescription, and it could probably be found and most saddle/tack shops. I have a 250mL bottle of the Tylan-200 (200mg/mL) strength. It is given in a 50mg/kg dose, once every 3 days, injected intramuscular, until symptoms clear. Tylan is not as dehydrating as Amikacin, and it doesn't cause skin burns like Baytril does. It costs about $32 for the big 250mL bottle, and this will last you a long time.

[Will0W783]

Tylan 200, 250 mL, Elanco Cattle Treatment - 2205397 | Tractor Supply Company (http://www.tractorsupply.com/tylan-200-250-ml-elanco-cattle-treatment-2205397)

[mykee]

Again though, self-medicating will do no good. There is no such thing as a catch-all antibiotic. You NEED a culture/swab done.

[hellosugaree]

surely covered already, it's not prudent to diagnose your own animals.

Again though, self-medicating will do no good. There is no such thing as a catch-all antibiotic. You NEED a culture/swab done.

Amen. Preach on brothers!

[Spaghetti]

Good to know, guys :) Thanks for the advice! I will be sure to develop a close working relationship with my vet so that when/if issues do come up, it can get taken care of properly by that vet as quickly as possible.

Thanks for helping out a giant python newbie (well, relative newbie, haha)!

[shaunyboy]

I personally can't stand Baytril. It's not effective against all the types of bacteria that commonly cause RI in snakes, and it can be very damaging to the skin if not injected properly.

^^^^^
when using baytril i preffer to use the ORAL version kimberly

i don't like injecting snakes,when there's an oral alternative

just my own personal way of doing things :)

i also would have swabs cultured,before i began treatment of any kind

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

Originally posted by Mykee:Again though, self-medicating will do no good. There is no such thing as a catch-all antibiotic. You NEED a culture/swab done.

In some cases, yes, a culture is best. I have a microscope at home and can tell whether an infection is gram-positive or gram-negative. When I notice any signs that point to potential RI, I first raise temps and humidity for a week. If there are no signs of improvement, I use the Tylan. I am fortunate enough to have an excellent reptile vet who has shown me how the different bacteria look under light microscopy, and I've discussed with him the pros and cons of hitting RIs with a broad-spectrum antibiotic. If there is no improvement with the Tylan, I will call the vet and take the animal in. However, in most cases that I've come across, IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCED WITH INJECTING ANTIBIOTIC AND HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH TREATING SNAKES (very important, big IF)...then there is not always a reason to run to the vet and spend $100 every time one gets a sniffle.

Fortunately, I haven't had many issues in the way of RIs the last two years...my new setup and snake room location seems to be beneficial to the animals, but I know that I can handle it if I did have an issue.

I do see where Mykee is coming from, but I have to respectfully disagree that you ALWAYS need a culture. Most vets are going to prescribe Baytril without doing a culture anyway, but Amikacin and Tylan are wider-spectrum and less damaging to the snake. I personally rarely resort to a vet visit anymore. Also, my vet will not see venomous snakes, so I need to have medication on hand in the even that one of them fell ill. No vets that I am aware of will see venomous snakes because of the risk to them.

[StudentoReptile]

I do see where Mykee is coming from, but I have to respectfully disagree that you ALWAYS need a culture. Most vets are going to prescribe Baytril without doing a culture anyway,

Ditto. This has been my experience as well.

[hellosugaree]

In some cases, yes, a culture is best. I have a microscope at home and can tell whether an infection is gram-positive or gram-negative. ... I am fortunate enough to have an excellent reptile vet who has shown me how the different bacteria look under light microscopy ...

You do your own gram stain at home?