Melinus Feeding

[rullom]

Hi guys..i just noticed some babies in my roach collection so I wanted to start feeding my monitor the adult males. Does anyone know a guideline to how big of an insect my monitor can eat? The roaches are dubia so can a 6 mo old melinus eat a full grown dubia male? At worst case what happens...do they choke?

Second thing I wanted to comment on is he is eating very well however I noticed today what looked like poop but it wasn't. It was actually 2 crickets stuck together so I assumed it was vomit. Any ideas why he might have vomited a couple crickets from his meal? It definitely was not 15 crickets (his meal) so I am not that worried.

Thanks all

[varanus_mad]

Try it and find it out... if if looks like hes struggling go to the next roach size down.

[rullom]

But can it kill him because he may choke?

[mo9e64]

Have faith that monitors can do in captivity what they do in the wild-like Varanus Mad said they'll either eat it or they won't.Always give them more than they need,you can't overfeed your baby at this stage if you have the proper temp gradient.Basically give them a choice of options within their range they'll do the rest.A good feeding response and growth will show you are doing it right.

[varanus_mad]

But can it kill him because he may choke?

well yeah but he could choke on a smaller item to...

have a bit more faith in your captive.

[rullom]

Now I put 12 crickets and 1 adult male dubia in a bowl just now....came back in 10 min and 3 crickets are left and the dubia still remains....maybe he prefers not to eat something that large?

[Gregg M]

Now I put 12 crickets and 1 adult male dubia in a bowl just now....came back in 10 min and 3 crickets are left and the dubia still remains....maybe he prefers not to eat something that large?

If your varanid can not take it down in one shot, it will rip it into bits it can take down. You varanid will most likely never choke on its food especially being that their trachea and esophagus are totally separated from eachother.

[mo9e64]

He might not like roaches,at the size of your monitor crickets will work just fine,dust them with calcium,feed the crickets good dog food or fruits veggies.As long as the monitor has the proper conditions to digest food and the amount to meet growth requirements.If giving variety is important to you,try other types of roaches,locusts,snails,the odd pinkie mouse-lots of good food is the important.Trust me both ways can give you the same results so why stress about him not eating roaches if you have a plentiful supply of crickets.

[jarich]

Please skip the dog food. Always. It's barely good enough for dogs, and is not good for anything else. Whether it be roach, cricket, rodent or anything else, please stop using or recommending this as a good food option. It's highly processed and has far higher amounts of protein and fats than any of those feeder prey are adapted to eating. If you are looking for easy dry food at least go with roach chow or rodent chow, depending on the prey item. Both are cheap and easy to find online.

[Gregg M]

It's highly processed and has far higher amounts of protein and fats than any of those feeder prey are adapted to eating.

I have to disagree with this Jarich. This is a rare thing to happen. I agree with almost everything you say bro. LOL

Roaches are adapted to eat just about anything. There are very few roach species that specialize in a particular food source. Roaches have been known to feed on human body hair for cryin out loud. LOL. A high quality, dry dog food paired with lots of greens is the best roach diet in my opinion. They need huge amounts of protein in their diet.

You can always tell when a roach colony is not getting enough protein. You will see lots of chewed up wings.
I have personally and literally raised dozens of generations of dubia and lateralis on dog food. The varanids and leopard geckos (plus the loose bibrons geckos in the herp rooms) have been eating those dog food filled roaches for years. No problems at all.

[jarich]

Ha! Well you can be wrong, I won't hold it against you man. :D

While I appreciate that it seems like dog food is a good food, for roaches especially, it is not. Start by reading Z.L. Sabree and S. Kambhambpati's work with roaches. They wrote a couple articles with N.A. Moran that deal with this specifically. I think you can find "Nitrogen recycling and nutritional provisioning by Blattabacterium, the cockroach endosymbion" online at PNAS. Its a good starting point. You can also read Kells, Vogt, Appel, and Bennett on the nutritional requirements of roaches.

You're right in saying that roaches will eat just about anything. However, they are adapted to low protein diets. They have adapted in a very interesting way to this low protein environment; they can create their own proteins from stored amino acids in the blood. In times where they find lots of protein, they break it down to amino acids and store that in their blood, namely in the form of uric acid. In the wild, where this high protein diet happens infrequently, its a cycle that raises and lowers their uric acid. If you are feeding them a high protein diet like dog food regularly, then they are simply storing more and more uric acid in their blood. It can actually kill the roaches if you feed them wet dog food, as the uric acid levels will reach high enough proportions to crystallize in the joints and organs. Essentially, what you have been feeding your varanids and geckos is a high uric acid feeder prey.

Now, this isn't something that is going to kill any of your healthy animals obviously, but it is something that unnecessarily stresses their systems. They have to process that uric acid, which is both dehydrating in the short term, and taxing to their liver and kidneys in the long term. For the sake of just changing over to a good quality roach chow, it seems an easy choice.

[mo9e64]

That's the danger of reading and not applying things in the real world-you can make wrong assumptions and waste alot of time.This whole issue about quality feeders that you talk about Jarich does make sense.Is what feeders eat important yes,but more important is what you feed your monitors and the problems you associate with feeder quality are actually more to do with husbandry.
There is already a history of misapplied scientific data here,that wasted alot of time.If you're going to use it,make sure it's not contradicted by actual application.

[Gregg M]

If you are feeding them a high protein diet like dog food regularly, then they are simply storing more and more uric acid in their blood. It can actually kill the roaches if you feed them wet dog food, as the uric acid levels will reach high enough proportions to crystallize in the joints and organs. Essentially, what you have been feeding your varanids and geckos is a high uric acid feeder prey.


Hence the reason why I said high quality dog foods. A major misconception is that high protein diets cause high uric acid levels. Purine is actually the culprit. Purine is mostly in organ meats like livers, kidneys, hearts, and such. You can offer a high protein dog food diet without offering a diet with high prurine levels. Cricket and roach diets are too low in protein and too high in calcium for my liking. Calcium is not good for inverts.

It is proven that most feeder roaches do not do well on low protein diets. Not with scientific literature, but by many roach breeders. When on low protein diets, you will see many chewed wings and even deformed wings. You will also see higher death rates before adulthood is reached and lots cannibalization. These issues are almost nonexistant when they are on high protein diets.

I have been breeding, raising, and feeding off roaches since the early 2000's without any problems. I know from personal experience that high protein roach diets along with daily greens will increase production and keep your roaches from eating eachother.

Our roach colonies are thriving to the point where I have to give them away to keep numbers down and the reptiles that eat them are thriving as well. No need for me to change it up and from what I have experienced, I would recommend others do the same as me. I have seen nothing negative from feeding my roaches dog food. Only possitives here, even over many years. Some of my leos are well past the 10 year mark. And that is the only reason I disagree with you on this subject and only this subject. Unfotunately, even really coo, like minded folks like us cant agree on everything. LOL

[infernalis]

It can actually kill the roaches if you feed them wet dog food, as the uric acid levels will reach high enough proportions to crystallize in the joints and organs. Essentially, what you have been feeding your varanids and geckos is a high uric acid feeder prey. .

Since 99% of the wet dog foods I have looked into contain Sodium Tripolyphosphate, I would not doubt that statement at all.

If STPP can kill reptiles, I could only imagine what it would do to insects.

[rullom]

SO which is it ... dog food supplement or not?? I don't know who to believe here lol

[jarich]

Hence the reason why I said high quality dog foods. A major misconception is that high protein diets cause high uric acid levels. Purine is actually the culprit. Purine is mostly in organ meats like livers, kidneys, hearts, and such. You can offer a high protein dog food diet without offering a diet with high prurine levels. Cricket and roach diets are too low in protein and too high in calcium for my liking. Calcium is not good for inverts.

It is proven that most feeder roaches do not do well on low protein diets. Not with scientific literature, but by many roach breeders. When on low protein diets, you will see many chewed wings and even deformed wings. You will also see higher death rates before adulthood is reached and lots cannibalization. These issues are almost nonexistant when they are on high protein diets.

I have been breeding, raising, and feeding off roaches since the early 2000's without any problems. I know from personal experience that high protein roach diets along with daily greens will increase production and keep your roaches from eating eachother.

Our roach colonies are thriving to the point where I have to give them away to keep numbers down and the reptiles that eat them are thriving as well. No need for me to change it up and from what I have experienced, I would recommend others do the same as me. I have seen nothing negative from feeding my roaches dog food. Only possitives here, even over many years. Some of my leos are well past the 10 year mark. And that is the only reason I disagree with you on this subject and only this subject. Unfotunately, even really cool, like minded folks like us cant agree on everything. LOL

Couldnt agree more with that last statement! I actually kind of look forward to our few disagreements. Its nice to have a debate with an intelligent person who is also cool about it.

Again, context is everything too. This is not something that I think would show effects on a healthy animal, its something that could definitely be a problem for an unhealthy or dehydrated animal fed a consistent diet of high uric acid roaches. Also, I can imagine it being less problematic if, like you do, people also feed fresh vegetables and other foods. Roaches are actually pretty good at eating what they need to fulfill their nutritional requirements. If they are only fed the dog food, I can see it being a real problem.

From my own experience, the only time I find I have chewed wings is when I am not providing enough food in general. I make my own dry food, and its all plant based, so there is never meat protein in their diet. Mine grow and breed like crazy. (The only problem I have is that I got a small beetle infestation a little while back and cant seem to get rid of the little buggers. They breed even faster than the roaches!)

Rullom, I suppose its up to you man. Gregg has had no problems using HIGH quality dog food, so I might be making a mountain out of a molehill. Ive had no problems not using dog food though, so Ill err on the side of caution I guess. (Either way, please dont use the cheap crap) At the end of the day its your lizard! :cool:

[Gregg M]

(The only problem I have is that I got a small beetle infestation a little while back and cant seem to get rid of the little buggers. They breed even faster than the roaches!)

Take those little beetles and put them in your varanid cages. They will make a super clean up crew.

Rullom, I suppose its up to you man. Gregg has had no problems using HIGH quality dog food, so I might be making a mountain out of a molehill. Ive had no problems not using dog food though, so Ill err on the side of caution I guess. (Either way, please dont use the cheap crap) At the end of the day its your lizard! :cool:

Just to add to this.
Rullom,
I would take what has been stated by both sides of the debate. Maybe start out with doing a bit of both and either stay inbetween or lean more to one side or the other. The information might be a bit conflicting but it also comes from two sources who have been doing things their way without any issues other than some beetles LOL, which in my opinion, is not a problem at all. And I agree, do not use the cheap crap.

[BarelyBreathing]

Young melinus can take down and eat a full sized roach.

[mo9e64]

http://s1057.photobucket.com/albums/t389/moes64/?action=views&current=IMG_

[mo9e64]

19192
this is one of my Bluetail Monitors

[BarelyBreathing]

Is that a female, Moe?

[mo9e64]

I think it's a female and a few from other photos think so as well.

[BarelyBreathing]

I agree. Males should be MUCH brighter. She looks very similar to my female in color. What a beauty!

[mo9e64]

19201
this is where they spend most of their time,in their burrows19202
19203

[BarelyBreathing]

That is also a very female behavior for doreanus. My female burrows (but not that often). My male is barely to be seen at ground level.