New ball python... but not new to snakes. Question about ethics

[Penguin]

Hey there. I'm new to the forum... I grew up in a family where snakes were an accepted pet, and I personally had a juvenile Coastal Carpet Python for about a year. Unfortunately he escaped a temporary outdoor enclosure several years ago. I've missed him, and decided to get another python recently. This time I decided on a Ball Python, mainly because they don't get as large as other constricting species. I bought a juvenile Ball Python from a local pet shop about two weeks ago, he's in a 10 gallon aquarium (will be upgrading to 20 gallons before too long). He went into a shed soon after I bought him, and now that that's over (it was a good shed, yay), I finally got him to take his first meal tonight. I fed him in a live mouse in-cage because I wanted to get him feeding as soon as I could, but I plan on transitioning him to frozen mice in a separate container now.

I am by no means an expert, but I am moderately experienced with snakes and want to do everything I can to ensure the health of my snake. Anyway, I have a few questions.

1. I am considering taking him to an exotic vet soon, just to get a checkup and since parasites are not an uncommon problem I was thinking of getting him de-wormed just to be on the safe side. I was thinking of skipping the testing and just doing a de-worming, the vet assured me there are no risks or danger in de-worming and that it's not a bad idea, and that the testing isn't really necessary and just an extra fee. Do you think this would be a good idea? Are internal parasites a prevalent enough problem to justify a de-worming? Is there any risk or damage, to your knowledge, in de-worming a snake that may or may not require it?

2. I have heard people railing on others for this idea... but like I said earlier, I do want to do whatever is healthy for my snake. I was wondering, though, if I could feed him on the less frequent end of the spectrum to keep him from growing quite so big. I mean a mild difference, like I read that for juveniles the suggested feeding is every 7-10 days. If I opted to feed every 10 days for the reason of keeping the snake on the smaller side, is this an awful idea? Am I wrong for this? Would it even it affect the growth of the snake at all?

[Edmond Y]

A routine deworming is nothing harm but good for both your snake and yourself. Understand all pet snake is over fed in captive, in the wild, they might have to hunt for days but get no food. Under our care, they don't even need to move around and can get food, what mainly build up is body fat. I fed once ever ten days to two weeks with adult asf, my balls growth nice round body shape but not fat and remain active a alert.

Here is a pic of my het albino female

http://i50.tinypic.com/vgnzuo.jpg

Edmond

[marvelfreak]

Hello and welcome to our zoo. May i ask why you want to try keeping it on the smaller side? To answer your question feeding every 10 days is fine.

[Aaron_S]

It IS an awful idea to feed any animal in hopes of it obtaining a smaller size. Sell the animal now. Go buy a pet rock.

[Little Wise Owl]

It IS an awful idea to feed any animal in hopes of it obtaining a smaller size. Sell the animal now. Go buy a pet rock.

What an incredibly helpful post.

Feeding every 10 days is fine. I sometimes feed mine every 14 days. I've had a male go for 7 months without food and didn't lose an ounce...

[Ivalynfyre]

I hope you don't mind my asking.. but why do you want an already small snake to be smaller than usual? If it's caging - I don't think a 41qt tub, which is fine for most ball pythons, unless you have a monster female, is too expensive.
I would feed every seven days for a baby. My opinion is that they're growing and need it.
And another 'IMO', it is somewhat wrong to feed the snake less just because you want an already small snake to be smaller. This goes for large snakes as well - if you don't want a full-sized burmese python(first giant that comes to mind), don't get it and starve it to keep it small.

[jaleely]

Keeping any animal underfed because you don't want it to grow big is a very well...not smart idea. There is NO nice way to put it. It doesn't even work, it just makes the animal have a lack of nutrition that slows it's growth. Genetics determine size on anything living, not food intake. If you feed it more, faster, it will grow faster, but that will not determine the END growth size. Not to mention snakes never stop growing, though it slows it late life to become barely noticeable. This is fact.

Sounds to me like you just wanted a pet. You don't want to have it in a bigger tank, but you wanted something. End gallon size for a ball python is at least 40 gallons. Doesn't really sound like you may be willing to have that, and may keep the snake inside a too small enclosure because of that.
I would stick to proper nutrition for the animal. Don't underfeed, thinking you're controling size. You're just controling growth rate, which is different, and UNhealthy for the animal.

I would politely suggest rehoming the animal with someone prepared to give it proper nutrition and cage size, or rethink your plans a bit.
Just sugar coating what someone else already said, really, but it sounds like, from the initial post, you are not really needing a ball python.

If you decide to keep the snake, i agree that you should switch to frozen-thawed food as soon as you can. There's no reason to risk the snake getting hurt by live food. If it's a baby you should be able to tempt it by wiggling it. Good luck.

[Aaron_S]

What an incredibly helpful post.

Feeding every 10 days is fine. I sometimes feed mine every 14 days. I've had a male go for 7 months without food and didn't lose an ounce...

I gave the best help. Made a suggestion of a pet that is more in line with what he wants. Doesn't ever grow!

Secondly, why waste my time offering actual advice if the person doesn't even have the animals best interest in mind already?

[Penguin]

I don't like the assumptions that were made. And I especially don't know why it was stated that I don't have my pets' best interest in mind. I am happy when my pets are at their best, and it bothers me if an animal is uncomfortable. And I would happily accommodate snake size with a 40 gallon tank. It just seems to me that from my reading the size of healthy adult ball pythons varies a bit, and feeding is suggested within a range. I guess I was wondering whether the two correlate. I don't want a malnourished or unhealthy snake. And I would never deliberately underfeed. I was just wondering if feeding on the lower end of suggested feedings would produce a healthy snake that is on the lower end of average healthy snake length, if that's not the case and the only way to end up with a smaller snake is to actually underfeed, then that answers my question and that is out of the question.

I love my snake and will happily do anything I can to accommodate him, now and in the future no matter what size he is. I just prefer the lower end of average healthy adult ball python but I'll be happy with him whatever size he reaches. As for the comment about taking him back to the pet store... odds are, I care more and bother to learn more about him than some other random pet store customer might. There are impulse buyers, and there are a lot of unwanted snakes on craigslist.

[MrBD1980]

I was wondering, though, if I could feed him on the less frequent end of the spectrum to keep him from growing quite so big. I mean a mild difference, like I read that for juveniles the suggested feeding is every 7-10 days. If I opted to feed every 10 days for the reason of keeping the snake on the smaller side, is this an awful idea? Am I wrong for this? Would it even it affect the growth of the snake at all?

Hi,

My wife just had a beautiful new baby (we used to child mind so babies are not new to us). I really want her to be healthy....but...she is so cute and easy to handle!!

I know it might sound bad but can I just feed her once every few days so she stays small and easy? Am I wrong for doing this?

.....ridiculous!!!!!!!!

Brian

[SnakeyJay]

Sadly there's many people with this feed em less, grow em less attitude... If you want a small snake, buy a garter. :D

[Fredricks]

You have no reason to keep your BP smaller. It will not harm you, your child, your wife or anyone else in your family. It will be a great teacher for your child that different is good and that intolerance is hurtful. No kid wants to hear how horrible their pet is, especially when it is as good natured as a ball python

You aren't a bad person thinking it, you are just being unrealistic. Would you under feed your lab to keep him smaller or would you let him grow to his maximum size and then slow down his feeding to a regular pattern? You know the answer. Good luck my friend

[Little Wise Owl]

I gave the best help. Made a suggestion of a pet that is more in line with what he wants. Doesn't ever grow!

Secondly, why waste my time offering actual advice if the person doesn't even have the animals best interest in mind already?

Haha, wow... I agree that wanting to keep a snake on the smaller side isn't right but to condemn that person from own a pet because of the question...? lololol Nice. A high percentage of your average Ball Python owner wouldn't even consider taking the snake to a vet because they're worried about parasites but this person would. THEY MUST NOT HAVE THE ANIMAL'S BEST INTEREST IN MIND.

If you didn't want to waste your time offering advice, why even post in the first place? Others gave much better constructive criticism.

[exwizard]

Haha, wow... I agree that wanting to keep a snake on the smaller side isn't right but to condemn that person from own a pet because of the question...? lololol Nice. A high percentage of your average Ball Python owner wouldn't even consider taking the snake to a vet because they're worried about parasites but this person would. THEY MUST NOT HAVE THE ANIMAL'S BEST INTEREST IN MIND.

If you didn't want to waste your time offering advice, why even post in the first place? Others gave much better constructive criticism.I like this reply as it is very appropriate.

[Aaron_S]

Haha, wow... I agree that wanting to keep a snake on the smaller side isn't right but to condemn that person from own a pet because of the question...? lololol Nice. A high percentage of your average Ball Python owner wouldn't even consider taking the snake to a vet because they're worried about parasites but this person would. THEY MUST NOT HAVE THE ANIMAL'S BEST INTEREST IN MIND.

If you didn't want to waste your time offering advice, why even post in the first place? Others gave much better constructive criticism.

It was a question he had in mind to put the animals needs and growth only second to his preferred size of pet. I don't get what you're saying. You apparently want people to think of their selfish wants instead of the animals first. Just because someone says they're going to the vets and then in the next paragraph say they want to keep their snake smaller, kind of puts doubt on the whole thing. Just because you put perfume on **** doesn't make it anything but ****.


Secondly, Penguin, there was no assumption made. You plainly said what we all understood. MrBD1980 has it quoted by you in your words "If I opted to feed every 10 days for the reason of keeping the snake on the smaller side, is this an awful idea? Am I wrong for this? Would it even it affect the growth of the snake at all?" That's not a curious question, that's a legitimate question with the intent to do it.

[Little Wise Owl]

It was a question he had in mind to put the animals needs and growth only second to his preferred size of pet. I don't get what you're saying. You apparently want people to think of their selfish wants instead of the animals first. Just because someone says they're going to the vets and then in the next paragraph say they want to keep their snake smaller, kind of puts doubt on the whole thing. Just because you put perfume on **** doesn't make it anything but ****.

Clearly you don't understand what I'm saying. I already stated that I think OP's intentions were wrong but what I have a problem with is your initial post. Others posted constructive criticism, you just told them they have no business owning an animal.

You know, when I first got into snakes, I wanted a RTB but was worried about size. The thought of feeding sparingly and keeping the snake lean and trim did indeed cross my mind. I just didn't voice the question because I later realized it wasn't worth it. Now that I'm more experienced in what I do, I realize how silly it was to think that. But I guess I have no business in keeping snakes because I thought about it when I first started out.

Whatever, I'm done here.

[Terranaut]

I would think asking the question would not prove intent. They asked. People said no. If they posted in a few weeks that they were purposly starving their snake then fine. Time to get a rock but if the advise is taken what was the harm in the question?

[Penguin]

how many times do I have to clarify that I have never had any interest in underfeeding my snake? there is an accepted range for snake feeding that is considered healthy... nobody says "you must feed your 19" snake exactly every 8 days". I was not talking about going outside the suggested range, and would have no interest in doing so. The comments saying "no you should not underfeed your snake to keep him smaller" aren't very helpful because my question didn't have anything to do with underfeeding, so they're not relevant answers.

As such, the analogy with underfeeding an infant is so ridiculous and irrelevant to my question that I won't even warrant it with a reply besides this.

I also don't know why you assume I am a man. But that's not important.

[exwizard]

how many times do I have to clarify that I have never had any interest in underfeeding my snake? there is an accepted range for snake feeding that is considered healthy... nobody says "you must feed your 19" snake exactly every 8 days". I was not talking about going outside the suggested range, and would have no interest in doing so. The comments saying "no you should not underfeed your snake to keep him smaller" aren't very helpful because my question didn't have anything to do with underfeeding, so they're not relevant answers.

As such, the analogy with underfeeding an infant is so ridiculous and irrelevant to my question that I won't even warrant it with a reply besides this.

I also don't know why you assume I am a man. But that's not important.Very nicely put :)

[MrBD1980]

I read...and have reread....your comment with the same conclusion, namely an underlying intent to feed less to contain growth. I continue to struggle to see how the question does not infer this but if you say not then I guess that's where the point lies...

As an aside I made no assumption as to your gender but as I am a man felt it was appropriate to write 'my wife'.

Hope that clarifies my position and my comparison, which BTW I feel continues to be an appropriate response to your initial post.

Kind regards

Brian

[Penguin]

I appreciate peoples' concern for my animal but it brings to question.. how often should I feed my snake? I've read several different things about how often to feed a juvenile ball python, from what I've read I was initially planning every 10 days but that's when I was planning on feeding him small rats. He was on the larger side among the juveniles, when I get home I'll have to measure him. But he didn't show interest in small rats, I think he thought they were too big, and took an adult mouse fine. So since for now atleast I'll probably be feeding him mice I should probably be feeding him more often. How often would you suggest?

Also I'd appreciate more input about the vet visit. Would you advise a sort of routine de-worming? He was in a cage in the store with other ball pythons, but my vet mentioned some pet stores deworm snakes when they get them in, so I'll probably call the pet store and that may influence my decision. If I take him in I think I'll ask to have him looked at for mites too, as I know they aren't uncommon.

[Edmond Y]

A lot of time pet store animal might have a chance to carry parasite and it will harm your aniaml or yourself, get it deworm and check by a vet is a good idea. As for feeding, the snake that you bought may not be the age that pet store tell you, most of the time they will tell you the snake is a baby or a juvenile because people don't want to buy a older one. Every ten days is what you need.

Edmond

[sherriwat]

i have reread your initial post too and there was nothing that stated you wanted to under feed your snake. people are idiots automatically assuming you wanted to unedr feed your snake if that was your intent you would of stated.

from my research it says to feed a baby ball python every 7 to 10 days is it ok to feed him every 15 days so i can keep him on the smaller side. thats you asking permission to starve your snake and you did no such thing. you specifically stated you read 7 to 10 days and you would like to do every 10 days and you would like to have you snake on the smaller side but you want to do whatever is best for you snake so whats our opinions on the matter.

my opinion and ima noob but ill still tell ya what i do formy baby bella.

right now i feed bella every 7 days and i feed her rat pups. i have only owned her for a week though. anyways i am going to feed her every week for approximately the next 2 to 3 months.than once she gets a little size and wieght on her i am changing her to every 10 days but increasing her food size from rat pups to the next appropriate food size if its still rat pups than so be it.

i am still within the normal feeding schedual that is said for ball pythons 7 to 10 day so in 3 months when i start feeding her every 10 days am i starving my snake? i dont see anywhere where you said youwant to purposely keep your snake small my understanding is you just prefer the smaller b/p's. i also prfer the generally smaller ones like the short ones that are really plump i believe you where asking if there was a way to have a snake like that without harming the snakes health.

to defend somepeople on here from what i'v read they have dealt with alot of people that get snakes just for the cool factor of owning a snake and dont think of the snakes first or really care about the snakes health, but that is still no excuse for saying you dont deserve to own a snake. you seem like your gonna be a great mommy\daddy to your snake for the simple fact you asked first before doing because you werent sure. :)

if you posted a pics of your snake than it might help everyone determine if your snake can go 10 days or go only 7. like baby bella i would love to beable to feed her every 10 days cause thats what we do with our big snake but she is really really tiny and skinny so i wouldnt risk it till she got some weight on her and length.

[exwizard]

One thing Id like to say is that sometimes I find people getting flamed for just asking questions. This discourages people from even coming forward to ask these questions. When advice is asked for, it should be given and responses like "Go get a pet rock" is totally out of bounds and uncalled for. Concern for the animal is one thing but condemnation is what I see a lot of times. I, too, will defend anybody who I think undeservedly got flamed for asking questions. If they ask questions, these questions should be handled in a way that is more constructive to get better results.

[Penguin]

Thankyou to the last few posters for interpreting my question more accurately. I only have one photo of Ramses so far, I would take a better one but I'm visiting my family for the night and not at my apartment. The lighting makes him look more yellow than he is, he is however on the lighter side and I chose him because I prefer that. In this photo I think he looks bigger than he is, he is on my lap in this photo and that is my knee beyond his head. http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j208/luvluvluvluvluv/IMG_20120425_153716.jpg hopefully he looks a good weight, he looks good to me but I'm not as familiar with this kind of snake as many of you probably are.

[Edmond Y]

He has very nice pattern and looks quite health. They made good pet.

Edmond

[unknownclown]

7-10 days is fine as long as the food is the apropriate size I would try to get him/her on rats asap though if you have to you can try scenting or if he goes into a good feeding mode try a mouse then a similar sized rat.
Very pretty snakey btw :)

As far as the size goes Ive found alot of people have the misconception about stunted growth, just yesterday I was asked by our house guest if the snakes will stay small because they are in smaller enclosures. Some people just dont know, and those that dont shouldnt be afraid to ask questions no matter how stupid us more experienced owners may think the question is. We as experienced owners (no matter how far our jaw drops or we chuckle behind our screens) should at least recognize new people will always be out there looking towards us for help its what brings most to the forums after all. To flame or bite someones head off just sends them off and its the animals that will pay in the end cause the "newbies" dont want to be flamed or treated like a idiots by asking more questions that could also be considered stupid... sorry for the rant Im tired and babbling....

[sherriwat]

in my opinion which again im a newbie but your snake looks a good size and looks healthy so i see no problem with feeding him 10 days as long as size appropriate and rats. baby bella is going to 10 days when about size if not a bit smaller than yours :)

and good call on deworming i wish i had a exotic vet close to where i live because i would of done same thing :)

[Penguin]

Yeah I have an exotic vet in my city, when I can afford it I'm sure my boyfriend will give me a ride there soon. They said the exam will be like $56, a little pricey but the deworming is only $12.

At what length should I upgrade him to a 20 gallon tank? Right now he's in a 10 gallon and he has a water dish he can submerge himself in, although I haven't seen him do it yet. He also has a little plastic log he can snugly curl up in and that's where he usually is, and the other side of the tank he has enough space to lay in as well.

He has an undertank heater and a heat lamp, although i haven't gotten a red bulb for it yet and have been using a 40 watt bulb during the day and shutting it off at night. The undertank heater has been in the open space in the tank and he's always under the log, so after he ate I moved the log to where the undertank heater is because I know they need adequate heat to help them digest or they can regurgitate. I've heard two hides are ideal, one heated and one not, so I will be buying another one soon to go in the open unheated area.

[USMCgunner11]

Sounds like your tryin to do everything right and you are researching and asking questions which is great. You will not have an underfed or malnourished snake if you feed every 10 days. The only thing that concerns me is the reason why you would want to. That snake will grow to be over 4 feet and that size should be fairly easy to manage and accommodate.

To answer you question about tank size, I've always tried to match their length as best as I could. So my adult BP is approx 4ft and a few inches and his enclosure measures 4 ft x 2ft x 18 inches. Others may disagree and say they could get by with less, and probably so. But I've always been a little generous when it comes to giving them space.

[Edmond Y]

Yeah I have an exotic vet in my city, when I can afford it I'm sure my boyfriend will give me a ride there soon. They said the exam will be like $56, a little pricey but the deworming is only $12.

At what length should I upgrade him to a 20 gallon tank? Right now he's in a 10 gallon and he has a water dish he can submerge himself in, although I haven't seen him do it yet. He also has a little plastic log he can snugly curl up in and that's where he usually is, and the other side of the tank he has enough space to lay in as well.

He has an undertank heater and a heat lamp, although i haven't gotten a red bulb for it yet and have been using a 40 watt bulb during the day and shutting it off at night. The undertank heater has been in the open space in the tank and he's always under the log, so after he ate I moved the log to where the undertank heater is because I know they need adequate heat to help them digest or they can regurgitate. I've heard two hides are ideal, one heated and one not, so I will be buying another one soon to go in the open unheated area.

Any heat lamp or bulb is not a good choice of housing a ball python. because it will day out the air inside the tank. What you need to do is stick your uth under the tank and use a dimmer to control the temp, it is the cheapest way to give a comfortable temp for your snake without dry out the air. As for the idea of a fish tank, understand glass cannot hold heat much and therefore you may want to find something for insulation, such as styofoam. Or you may want to take a look of those plastic tub and convert them into a display cage.

Here is some idea for you.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-enclosure-discussion/92046-diy-green-tree-python-enclosure.html

Edmond

[Ivalynfyre]

Yeah I have an exotic vet in my city, when I can afford it I'm sure my boyfriend will give me a ride there soon. They said the exam will be like $56, a little pricey but the deworming is only $12.

At what length should I upgrade him to a 20 gallon tank? Right now he's in a 10 gallon and he has a water dish he can submerge himself in, although I haven't seen him do it yet. He also has a little plastic log he can snugly curl up in and that's where he usually is, and the other side of the tank he has enough space to lay in as well.

He has an undertank heater and a heat lamp, although i haven't gotten a red bulb for it yet and have been using a 40 watt bulb during the day and shutting it off at night. The undertank heater has been in the open space in the tank and he's always under the log, so after he ate I moved the log to where the undertank heater is because I know they need adequate heat to help them digest or they can regurgitate. I've heard two hides are ideal, one heated and one not, so I will be buying another one soon to go in the open unheated area.

I think a good time to update when, stretched out completely, the snake is a good few inches longer than the tank. He'll need a second hide, I don't really bother with buying my ball python hides anymore, I just give him a box(with a hole cut in the side, of course) that he can curl up and touch all the sides.

Just the UTH will work, heat lamps can rob your tank of humidity. Do you have a thermostat? You'll need one, if ya don't.

I also second the idea of using a plastic tub, I like them more than glass tanks.

[Penguin]

How do you secure a lid on a plastic tub? I bought clips for the lid of the tank, but unfortunately they are for a specific kind of lid and don't work for mine. I have it secured with basically bricks and a belt. I have a large plastic tupperware tub that I bought initially for my pet rat, it's definitely bigger than the tank Ramses is in. I was also concerned about putting an uth on the underside of it, I was scared it'd damage the plastic or something.

And someone mentioned I need a thermostat, I have a thermometer and hygrometer. What would the thermostat be for? The uth? How do you rig that up?

[Lankyrob]

The thermostat controls how hot the UTH gets and keeps the temperatures stable. Without ine if the room gets very hot or very cold then the snakes enclosure will get very hot or very cold too.

[USMCgunner11]

How do you secure a lid on a plastic tub? I bought clips for the lid of the tank, but unfortunately they are for a specific kind of lid and don't work for mine. I have it secured with basically bricks and a belt. I have a large plastic tupperware tub that I bought initially for my pet rat, it's definitely bigger than the tank Ramses is in. I was also concerned about putting an uth on the underside of it, I was scared it'd damage the plastic or something.

And someone mentioned I need a thermostat, I have a thermometer and hygrometer. What would the thermostat be for? The uth? How do you rig that up?

If your snake was to clear a spot in the substrate and can touch the hot bare glass, it will result in burn. That's why you need the thermostat. I do not recommend you have him in the "jimmy rig" container for long. Sure a young BP doesn't have the strength to move a brick-weighted lid. But what happens when someone forgets to replace the brick after holding him? Trust me, I was there too when I first started out. For me it was old college books. But it was through that mistake that I learned the importance of having a solid, escape-proof enclosure.

If you purchase a plastic or wood enclosure that is specifically designed to house a reptile, it will secure nicely and you won't have to worry about it. Cheaper options exist, but that is the one I would opt for.

[Penguin]

How would I secure a plastic tub?

[Ivalynfyre]

If it's something like this (http://www.Sterilite.com/SelectProduct.html?id=360&ProductCategory=253&section=1)(what my BP will be going into after we move), I would think the clips would already be secured.

[sherriwat]

go walmart and get the tub that has the lids that snap into place. like a handle that goes over lid and smaps or the handles that go down and snap. if you go to walmart you'll know what imtakling bout when u see it. or go lookmy post that titled i gave in and enclosure question. folks gavemelots of info on plastic tubs there andsome pics too:)