Neurological issues poll

[CDN_Blood]

I'm a curious sort of fella and I'm a numbers kinda guy, so just to satisfy my own pondering, here's a poll about neuro issues...

It's an anonymous poll and it'll run for a week.

[Will0W783]

Where's the poll? There's nothing there.

[alessia55]

At least for me I'm not seeing any poll....

[CDN_Blood]

Gawd people, it's a 2-step process...patience...patience :)

[StudentoReptile]

None of my snakes currently have neurological issues, but if any of them did, and I was still in the breeding game, I probably would NOT breed them unless I knew exactly what the cause was (EX: a head injury that I personally witnessed).

I personally do not think we know enough about neurology in snakes (or any reptiles, for that matter), so we don't fully understand what would be inheritable/genetic and what isn't. That's my reasoning.

Perhaps there's some medical information I have not yet been made aware of that suggests otherwise, in which case, I do remain open-minded.

[CK SandBoas]

None of my snakes have neurological issues, but if one of them did, i would not breed them for the reason i would not want to risk it passing it to future offspring.

[mykee]

I have a few spider and spider cross ball pythons that have the spider wobble. I have and do breed them.

[shaunyboy]

i have a jag that gets a little excited when picked up,she shows no signs any other time

she will be bred next year

cheers shaun

[BarelyBreathing]

I had one snake that had neurological issues at one point, but she was never bred.

[marvelfreak]

My Coastal Jag use to get a little off balance when excited, but as she gets older she seem to have out grown it. It would only happen when she smelled food. I got her for the propose of breeding her to my Jungle x Jag, but i don't think i'll ever breed her.

[Strutter769]

I don't have any snakes with neurological issues. If I had, I would find it extremely selfish to breed. IMO that shows absolutely no regard or respect for the animal. Afterall, isn't that what this hobby is about? Respect for the animals?

[mykee]

I respect my animals; they are fed the best quality food, cleaned daily if necessary, and kept in immaculate conditions. Fresh water daily as well. Breeding a snake (in this case, a spider ball python) is not detrimental in any way to the snake or it's offspring. They eat, poop and breed like any other animal.

[Skumbo]

None of mine do because I only have two snakes, but if they did.. I would *not* breed them.

[Strutter769]

I respect my animals; they are fed the best quality food, cleaned daily if necessary, and kept in immaculate conditions. Fresh water daily as well. Breeding a snake (in this case, a spider ball python) is not detrimental in any way to the snake or it's offspring. They eat, poop and breed like any other animal.

I did not intend to offend, Mykee.

Let me ask you (all of you) this.

If you had a child with, say, autism, (just an example) and you knew you were the carrier of that gene. Lets say you also know, for certain, that if you fathered an additional children they would also be autistic. They eat, they poop, you keep your home immaculate, but you carry the gene. Would you continue to have children?

[alessia55]

I did not intend to offend, Mykee.

Let me ask you (all of you) this.

If you had a child with, say, autism, (just an example) and you knew you were the carrier of that gene. Lets say you also know, for certain, that if you fathered an additional children they would also be autistic. They eat, they poop, you keep your home immaculate, but you carry the gene. Would you continue to have children?

Actually, if you have a child with autism, you do have a high genetic risk (19%) of subsequent children having autism too. And parents do in fact have children after having an autistic child and knowing the risk. So.... IDK.

Edit to add: it's also not a comparable example, since snakes are much simpler creatures than the complex human. How we determine quality of life for a human is so different to how we measure quality of life in a reptile. The head wobble of a spidery ball python is no where near the severity of the symptoms of a neurological issue in a human.

[shaunyboy]

I respect my animals; they are fed the best quality food, cleaned daily if necessary, and kept in immaculate conditions. Fresh water daily as well. Breeding a snake (in this case, a spider ball python) is not detrimental in any way to the snake or it's offspring. They eat, poop and breed like any other animal.

^^^^^
the same can be said for me,regards my carpet pythons

its the jaguar morph that has some neuro issues (5% of jags)

i have no problem regards breeding the jag morph

cheers shaun

[mykee]

I really am getting sick of all these maroons comparing humans to reptiles.
No offense....

[Will0W783]

There are certain genetic morphs in snakes that will ALWAYS have some degree of neurological deficit. The spider ball python and all combos of the morph, and the jaguar gene in the carpet python are just a few examples. I have had jags and a spider ball python, and they were healthy and ate well. They got a bit wobbly when excited (i.e. when food was around), but were otherwise healthy. I had intended to breed them, but they both were sold when I downsized the collection.

I think that in cases of these morphs, breeders have to look at the overall condition of the animal- as far as I know the neurological condition is not completely heritable; a wobble-free snake can have severely affected offspring, and a severely wobbly snake can produce normal babies. I think that we as breeders must be careful and responsible when creating new morphs to lessen the risk and impact of potential deficits.

[Skumbo]

I did not intend to offend, Mykee.

Let me ask you (all of you) this.

If you had a child with, say, autism, (just an example) and you knew you were the carrier of that gene. Lets say you also know, for certain, that if you fathered an additional children they would also be autistic. They eat, they poop, you keep your home immaculate, but you carry the gene. Would you continue to have children?

Personally? No, I probably wouldnt.

But then again everyone is different. My older brother has a "mild" case of autism. I'm glad my parents decided to have more kids, I don't have it at all, but wouldn't blame them if they didnt.


That said, I was thinking severe neurological issues, not ones associated with say, spider morphs. I was thinking more along the lines of debilitating issues.

[Lankyrob]

I think that most breeders that had a hatchling with debilitating issues would cull it rather than let it live anyways so the issues of whether to breed it would be moot :)

[StudentoReptile]

I think that most breeders that had a hatchling with debilitating issues would cull it rather than let it live anyways so the issues of whether to breed it would be moot :)

That's what kingsnakes, monitors, and pacman frogs are for!

[infernalis]

I have neurological problems, but I already bred...

[mykee]

Lol!!!!!...

[Skits]

None of my snakes have any problems, and I don't breed my snakes either...but if I was breeding and did have a snake with neurological problems, it would depend on the problem. If I seen that my snake was having a hard time, or was stressed because of the issues I would not breed him. But if my snake didn't seem too affected, I would breed. I think it's also more on finding them homes that are willing to work/deal with their problems in case any of the generations were to be affected.

[Gungirl]

I have neurological problems, but I already bred...

Wayne.. for that comment you get a dozen cookies...:D

[exwizard]

None of my snakes have any neuro issue and since breeding is secondary to me, none of my snakes have to breed. I dont think I would ever breed a snake with a neuro issue.

We have had a few rats with neuro issues and those we fed off right away. That way it doesnt get into our gene pool.

[mykee]

Feeders I feel are a completely different deal than pet reptiles. Feeders have a definite expiration date, where pet reptiles do not. I agree though, I cull all feeders or breeders who have issues.

[shaunyboy]

There are certain genetic morphs in snakes that will ALWAYS have some degree of neurological deficit. The spider ball python and all combos of the morph, and the jaguar gene in the carpet python are just a few examples. I have had jags and a spider ball python, and they were healthy and ate well. They got a bit wobbly when excited (i.e. when food was around), but were otherwise healthy. I had intended to breed them, but they both were sold when I downsized the collection.

I think that in cases of these morphs, breeders have to look at the overall condition of the animal- as far as I know the neurological condition is not completely heritable; a wobble-free snake can have severely affected offspring, and a severely wobbly snake can produce normal babies. I think that we as breeders must be careful and responsible when creating new morphs to lessen the risk and impact of potential deficits.

^^^^^
Kimberly,the ONLY part of your post i disagree with is.....

not all jags have nuro issues

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

I really am getting sick of all these maroons comparing humans to reptiles.
No offense....

^^^^^
i agree 100% mate

it's rediculous compairing humans to reptiles,or bringing children into it to try and proove a point,it's not like we cull people with issues,

so is bringing mammels into it,liike when people compair,inbreeding in dogs,to line breeding with snakes

no offence mean't here either

cheers shaun

[red ink]

Is this poll for all snake species or those of us the keep snake morphs that are known to breakdance when exited?

I have neither of the "known" wobbly morphs in my collection so I don't know if my vote of no would be valid (haven't voted yet so as not to interfere with the statistal results just in case)?

[exwizard]

Is this poll for all snake species or those of us the keep snake morphs that are known to breakdance when exited?

I have neither of the "known" wobbly morphs in my collection so I don't know if my vote of no would be valid (haven't voted yet so as not to interfere with the statistal results just in case)?I dont keep any of those species myself so its my guess that this applies to all snakes in the collection.

[Jlassiter]

None of my colubrids have nuerological issues and probably never will.....

[shaunyboy]

Is this poll for all snake species or those of us the keep snake morphs that are known to breakdance when exited?

I have neither of the "known" wobbly morphs in my collection so I don't know if my vote of no would be valid (haven't voted yet so as not to interfere with the statistal results just in case)?

i think it covers any breakdancing snakes mate

whether it be a 1 off pure snake with issues or a breakdancing morph ;)

cheers shaun:D

[Terranaut]

I answered that I would breed my Jag. Although he shows no signs of nero issues other than being terrified of everything, the Jag gene can cause nero issues and is known for it to happen in a small percentage. So yes I will and yes I may get some wobbely Jags. It's a risk I am willing to take to produce some awesome snakes.

[jaleely]

The only reason to breed something with known issues of any kind is to make money. You breed, they buy. If you're doing it for the joy of breeding, you're not going to care if you're making morphs or not. You only make morphs, and inbreed animals, when you want to make money.
This argument goes around and around, and really doesn't even need to be brought up again to have us all discuss it.
People are going to breed, make a living, other people are going to disagree, think it's bad for the animals. *shrug*

No one is going to sway anyone to any side. What's the point? Most of us here are pretty well established in our opinions.

[CDN_Blood]

The only reason to breed something with known issues of any kind is to make money. You breed, they buy. If you're doing it for the joy of breeding, you're not going to care if you're making morphs or not. You only make morphs, and inbreed animals, when you want to make money.
This argument goes around and around, and really doesn't even need to be brought up again to have us all discuss it.
People are going to breed, make a living, other people are going to disagree, think it's bad for the animals. *shrug*

No one is going to sway anyone to any side. What's the point? Most of us here are pretty well established in our opinions.

While I agree with you 100% on this, it's not the point of the poll...I'm just curious to see the numbers. I'm not really looking at much of the 'logic' because as you say, it's repetitive from other threads.

[Rogue628]

I don't see an answer in the poll that I would answer :p

All my current animals have no neuro issues. There are a couple of royal morphs I would really like to have as well as a jag carpet that are known to have issues.

I have no desire to breed my animals. In the past when I kept snakes I didn't have any interest in breeding. Quite honestly it sounds like work and I work enough (80 hr weeks). :p They are my pets, not a tool for making money or making something cool or unique. I don't care if anyone else does. After all, if we, as keepers, want a CBB animal for a pet, where do we get them? Bottom line, it comes from a breeder, regardless of where you found it.

And for those of you who want to throw humans into the mix, there are people who marry and have children who have issues, whether it be down syndrome or autism, and they are happy people leading what is to them, normal lives.

Breeding (and having any offspring) can be a gamble. If you want to roll the dice, go for it. I've never been much of a gambler so I doubt there will ever come a time where I would get an interest in breeding. It better be something really special that I'd want to give a go at before I bred any of my animals.

[jaleely]

oh. You did say that actually. Sorry! I got worked up. : )

[Caylan]

Honestly, I'm torn on this subject.... I have one jag that I bought with the intention to breed and now her neurological disorder has made me choose to keep her as a pet instead, a special needs one at that... Now I also have another jag with no problems, in fact, she is the tamest snake I own somehow, and has been since hatching... no neuro problems, but I would hate to say that 5% of her babies have a chance of being as bad as my original jag... that just doesn't make me feel right... I think I might just call it a day with the jags and be glad I have one normal one neuro. The spider morph never interested me much, the I had a bit of a crush on queenbees as a noob, their spinning habits are really no problem in my mind. They are alot less stressed then jags are with the affliction, and seem to eat better with it as well... that said I perfer woma balls to the spider balls if I wanted a wobbler, and I really kinda don't, I have Punk already, she's wobbly enough for an entire collection worth of wobbly snakes.... Guess I can't answer this poll eitehr, sorry Todd, hoepfully my written answer suffices :D

[red ink]

I answered that I would breed my Jag. Although he shows no signs of nero issues other than being terrified of everything, the Jag gene can cause nero issues and is known for it to happen in a small percentage. So yes I will and yes I may get some wobbely Jags. It's a risk I am willing to take to produce some awesome snakes.

Fair enough and I respect that decision as everybody has the right to breed and produce what ever they want.

I guess the next question would be what do you do with the snakes showing the wobbles at an early age?

Please don't take it as me having a go at you.... It's a legitimate question as like you said there is a chance of it happening and it is another factor to consider when breeding Jags...

[shaunyboy]

The only reason to breed something with known issues of any kind is to make money. You breed, they buy. If you're doing it for the joy of breeding, you're not going to care if you're making morphs or not. You only make morphs, and inbreed animals, when you want to make money.
This argument goes around and around, and really doesn't even need to be brought up again to have us all discuss it.
People are going to breed, make a living, other people are going to disagree, think it's bad for the animals. *shrug*

No one is going to sway anyone to any side. What's the point? Most of us here are pretty well established in our opinions.

i disagree that the ONLY reason is for money

i breed to create top quality carpet pythons for their beauty,imo,the jaguar colour and pattern mutation,has created some of the very best looking carpets out there.

i'd gladly give away the the rest of the clutch,after i picked my holdbacks

so it's NOT all about money pal ;)

cheers shaun :)

[shaunyboy]

Fair enough and I respect that decision as everybody has the right to breed and produce what ever they want.

I guess the next question would be what do you do with the snakes showing the wobbles at an early age?

Please don't take it as me having a go at you.... It's a legitimate question as like you said there is a chance of it happening and it is another factor to consider when breeding Jags...

use them as feeders for snake eating snakes,would imo be the most productive thing to do with hatchlings,that show severe issues mate

imo feeding a snake to a snake,is NO different to feeding it a small furry animal

cheers shaun

[Terranaut]

Fair enough and I respect that decision as everybody has the right to breed and produce what ever they want.

I guess the next question would be what do you do with the snakes showing the wobbles at an early age?

Please don't take it as me having a go at you.... It's a legitimate question as like you said there is a chance of it happening and it is another factor to consider when breeding Jags...

No worries we can discuss this without issue.
It would depen on the severity of the issue. I could use them as feeders if they were real bad. I could give them away to people I know. Or I could keep them. I do plan to keep some of what I breed. I am not doing it for money. I want the snakes themselves and to enjoy the process. Actualy I am sure it will coat me way more than I would proffit. Way more.

[CDN_Blood]

I don't see an answer in the poll that I would answer :p

All my current animals have no neuro issues. There are a couple of royal morphs I would really like to have as well as a jag carpet that are known to have issues.

I have no desire to breed my animals. In the past when I kept snakes I didn't have any interest in breeding. Quite honestly it sounds like work and I work enough (80 hr weeks). :p They are my pets, not a tool for making money or making something cool or unique. I don't care if anyone else does. After all, if we, as keepers, want a CBB animal for a pet, where do we get them? Bottom line, it comes from a breeder, regardless of where you found it.


Just a couple of points on this...

Since my dog at my Superman outfit, I'm just a regular guy now, so I can't think of *all* the options for a poll that a body *might* want to choose and even if I could, you can't please everyone all the time - there will always be one that's just never satisfied, so I just focused on the options that I was curious about :)

I can't speak for Royal morphs, but I can say that not all Jags have issues. Mine is solid as a rock and so is her sibling that I know personally.

Finally, I don't know about anyone else, but I consider someone who calls themselves a 'breeder' a world apart from some private individual who happens to allow some of their snake to breed from time to time, so I take exception to the "it comes from a breeder, regardless of where you found it" thing, lol.

If someone calls themselves a breeder, yes, they're in it for the money plain and simple and that's why they're making a business out of it and there are *so* few exceptions to this that they're barely even perceptible - I've only ever met 2 commercial types that fall into the exception in all my years of herpin' and I give them the credit they deserve in one of my rants (http://cdnblood.clanteam.com/CDN_Blood/Rants/Entries/2012/4/20_Setting_a_Bad_Example.html). Private individuals who allow their snakes to breed aren't as focused on profit, and a lot of them will actually give away offspring to the right people simply because they know they're going to get the best possible care with that person, so I personally can't group these two types of individuals into the same genre, but that's just me :cool:

[shaunyboy]

i hear what your saying regards big commercial breeders mate

i would characterise the type of breeder

1.small collection private breeder (sells privately and individually)

2.large collection private/commercial breeder (sells to the public and wholesales to shops)

3.large scale commercial breeder (the likes of bob clark)

there are the odd exception like a private collection breeder,who also works with and represents,a large commercial breeder.....

the guy i'm thinking of when i think of the above,has a fairly large multi species private collection,but is also the UK representative for a large european morelia breeder

imo,the large european breeder takes exceptionally good care of his snakes and produces the best morelia outside Australia.....

so as you said not ALL large commercial breeders are bad,although there are a few commercial breeders who are,they treat the snakes as nothing more than a comodity,like if they were selling shoes,car parts,etc

so its good you brought up different types of breeder mate

cheers shaun

[CDN_Blood]

It's only those who are in it strictly for profit that I have issues with. I have to be fair to the others :)

EDIT: Well, actually they're not the only people I have issues with, lol. I have a problem with people who keep breeding snakes that are already so abundant that they're considered disposable now (e.g. Royal pythons). That particular market is so saturated that it's utterly ridiculous. The world needs another Royal python breeder about as much as Dolly Parton needs breast implants. I'm mean really... :)

[Terranaut]

I saw normals for $39 at my local reptile shop a few days ago. They should be free in a few months ;)

[mykee]

Nope. Wholesalers will buy normals all day long for $___ from anyone willing to sell them. Which means they mark it up and sell them to pet stores. Normals will NEVER be free.

[Terranaut]

Nope. Wholesalers will buy normals all day long for $___ from anyone willing to sell them. Which means they mark it up and sell them to pet stores. Normals will NEVER be free.

It was a joke.

If he pays 50% of his selling cost that's $20. That's dirt cheap. Hell even a normal corn snake is more than $39 at pet store. Market saturation of normals has cause the price to drop to near free levels. Best part is I love normals :)

[mykee]

I know for a fact that wholesalers are selling normals to pet shops for more than $40, which is before the pet store markup, so you should snatch them all up at that price.

[Rogue628]

Just a couple of points on this...

Since my dog at my Superman outfit, I'm just a regular guy now, so I can't think of *all* the options for a poll that a body *might* want to choose and even if I could, you can't please everyone all the time - there will always be one that's just never satisfied, so I just focused on the options that I was curious about :)

I can't speak for Royal morphs, but I can say that not all Jags have issues. Mine is solid as a rock and so is her sibling that I know personally.

Finally, I don't know about anyone else, but I consider someone who calls themselves a 'breeder' a world apart from some private individual who happens to allow some of their snake to breed from time to time, so I take exception to the "it comes from a breeder, regardless of where you found it" thing, lol.

If someone calls themselves a breeder, yes, they're in it for the money plain and simple and that's why they're making a business out of it and there are *so* few exceptions to this that they're barely even perceptible - I've only ever met 2 commercial types that fall into the exception in all my years of herpin' and I give them the credit they deserve in one of my rants (http://cdnblood.clanteam.com/CDN_Blood/Rants/Entries/2012/4/20_Setting_a_Bad_Example.html). Private individuals who allow their snakes to breed aren't as focused on profit, and a lot of them will actually give away offspring to the right people simply because they know they're going to get the best possible care with that person, so I personally can't group these two types of individuals into the same genre, but that's just me :cool:

I was only teasing you ;) And I hope you put your dog in time out for eating your superman costume :p lol

I can see your point in you differentiating private individuals and breeders. As you've pointed out to me in the past, private individuals can be good to buy from, especially when purchasing an animal that needs human interaction from the beginning (like bloods). I can see both pros and cons of each. And I have definitely taken your previous advice to heart. :)

[Terranaut]

Again not into snakes for money. If you want I can send you the contact info so you can snatch them up?? I saw normals for sale for $50 at the last KW expo. I doubt highly the going price is anything more than that. And seeing as the mark up is usually 100% $25 wholesale sounds about right. I know it sucks for breeders but this happens when there are so many royal breeders in the same area. Even some of the morphs have dropped huge in the last 6 months. The last 2 expos I was at I saw hundreds of royals and a handful of other breeds. Reminds me of beardies.

[mykee]

How does that suck? That's awesome! $25 a head AND you get a free bin for the good stuff to go in?? Win/win!!!

[Jlassiter]

We used to get "normal" ball pythons for $12 each.......back then some were pastels, black backs and yellow bellies and no one knew that......lol