Burm Skin Mystery

[AjaMichelle]

Hi
I have a burmese python who keeps developing the strangest affliction on his ventral scales. Every time it shows up I think I've found the cause, but it's back again, and I'm out of ideas.

The first time I thought he had scraped himself, so I covered the rough spot I thought to be responsible.

The second time I thought it was the result of a mistake on my part. I had the flu and couldn't clean up his urates/poo immediately. I thought perhaps he had laid in the puddle he made, thereby injuring himself.

Then I was cleaning up a poo a few weeks later and found a different rough spot, covered it, and went over his entire enclosure with some nylon stockings, which didn't reveal any other rough areas.

But it's back... again, though to a lesser extent.

Basically it looks like he skinned his scales. The red spots aren't in between his scales but on them. I often find pieces of scale throughout the enclosure.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what in the world is causing this?

Here are some photos:

First time:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/puddinpop_77/PB070316.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/puddinpop_77/PB070311.jpg

Second time:
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/P2190625.jpg

After he shed:
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/Monty%20Python/P3270004.jpg

[marvelfreak]

Not sure! The second pictures the one mark almost looks like a tick. The rests kind of like scale rot maybe. Maybe even burns. I think i get it to a vet and have it checked out.

[AjaMichelle]

Not sure! The second pictures the one mark almost looks like a tick. The rests kind of like scale rot maybe. Maybe even burns. I think i get it to a vet and have it checked out.

Definitely no ticks. He has a radiant heal panel on the ceiling of his enclosure and it doesn't get very hot to the touch. I thought it was scale rot but his enclosure is clean and humid, not dirty and wet. I also change his water regularly, and disinfect everything with a dilute Chlorhexidine solution.

[CDN_Blood]

Looks like the beginning of scale rot to me. How about some details on what it's being kept in...

[AjaMichelle]

Looks like the beginning of scale rot to me. How about some details on what it's being kept in...

He's housed in an 8 foot long, 3 foot deep, 2 foot high wood/hardibacker enclosure.
Enough ventilation--- Humidity is 60%
He has a water bowl large enough to submerge completely.
For heat, he has a radiant heat panel mounted on the ceiling on one end of the enclosure. Surface temperature of the basking spot is 90*F, he has a cooler area of about 80*F.

He has a quick dry rug that covers the cool side and middle of his enclosure.

Any time he spills or defecates I try to clean it up immediately.

I use Unique (an enzymatic cleaner) to clean up the poo and urates, and then Chlorhexidine (Nolvasan) to disinfect.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/puddinpop_77/P1050524.jpg

[Will0W783]

Honestly, that looks like a fungal infection to me. It could also potentially be a reaction to one of the cleaners you are using....do you rinse thoroughly after using the cleaners?
At any rate, you need to take him to a reptile vet ASAP to determine the microorganism or toxic reaction responsible...whatever it is causing that, it's not good and cannot be ignored.

[CDN_Blood]

I would downsize the large water basin for now so that it can't soak, remove anything that might be prickly (quick dry rug?) and put some newspaper down. I never use anything but water to clean my tanks, personally, so I don't have any input on the cleaners/disinfectants, but it's quite likely that harsh chemicals sure won't make that feel any better.

If you can get your hands on some Polysporin (or equivalent **WITHOUT** pain-killing ingredients - never use anything with pain-killer in it on a reptile), I'd salve-up those spots and keep it on the dry side with only newspaper for a few days to see if it gets any better.

These are only temporary band-aides that might help a bit until you can get it to a vet for proper treatment, but that's my 2 cents :cool:

[jaleely]

I would think scale rot. I would clean out the cage really well...like kill bacteria kind of clean, make sure all the cleaner is out, change out his enclosure to paper towels or newspaper, and keep him on that until it goes away.
A trip to the vet is always the best, but in the meantime...
If you google scale rot it's caused by unclean living conditions...which doesn't mean you're like, horrible at keeping him or something, but he could have lain in poo or pee and gotten bacteria in his scales, and it's spread.

Edit: wow there was some posts while i was posting *lol* fungal could be responsible too. Now that i see the enclosure, it may be the tile is harboring some bacteria. I'd actually still suggest a good clean, and laying down of paper towels or something. : )

Keep us updated!

[AjaMichelle]

Honestly, that looks like a fungal infection to me. It could also potentially be a reaction to one of the cleaners you are using....do you rinse thoroughly after using the cleaners?
At any rate, you need to take him to a reptile vet ASAP to determine the microorganism or toxic reaction responsible...whatever it is causing that, it's not good and cannot be ignored.

Aw man that's lame! :(

I've had him for a year and was using bleach, then switched to nolvasan in October. I don't rinse the nolvasan. It's a dilute solution and it dries completely before I put him back in. Not that this means anything if he's sensitive to it, of course. I have already called my vet. I'm expecting to hear back from her on Thursday.

Also, those pics are from a month or so ago. He had the first spot which may well have been a scrape (in October). He shed and it was completely gone. Then I didn't see anything again until February, when I was sick.

I was giving him medicated baths and it got better, then was completely gone when he shed (in March). He's been looking fine since. Then this week he's got some weird scales again. I'll try to take some pics tonight.

Thanks for the help! :)

[AjaMichelle]

I would downsize the large water basin for now so that it can't soak, remove anything that might be prickly (quick dry rug?) and put some newspaper down. I never use anything but water to clean my tanks, personally, so I don't have any input on the cleaners/disinfectants, but it's quite likely that harsh chemicals sure won't make that feel any better.

If you can get your hands on some Polysporin (or equivalent **WITHOUT** pain-killing ingredients - never use anything with pain-killer in it on a reptile), I'd salve-up those spots and keep it on the dry side with only newspaper for a few days to see if it gets any better.

These are only temporary band-aides that might help a bit until you can get it to a vet for proper treatment, but that's my 2 cents :cool:

They aren't harsh chemicals. Chlorhexidine is often used as an antiseptic for amphibians. It's unlikely it's the disinfectant regardless because I was cleaning his wounds with Chlorhexidine when they first appeared and they were healing. I really appreciate your input. :)

I would think scale rot. I would clean out the cage really well...like kill bacteria kind of clean, make sure all the cleaner is out, change out his enclosure to paper towels or newspaper, and keep him on that until it goes away.
A trip to the vet is always the best, but in the meantime...
If you google scale rot it's caused by unclean living conditions...which doesn't mean you're like, horrible at keeping him or something, but he could have lain in poo or pee and gotten bacteria in his scales, and it's spread.

Edit: wow there was some posts while i was posting *lol* fungal could be responsible too. Now that i see the enclosure, it may be the tile is harboring some bacteria. I'd actually still suggest a good clean, and laying down of paper towels or something. : )

Keep us updated!

I have already cleaned his enclosure. I use the enzyme cleaner, then a biodegradable soap and water to clean the grout, and finish with the disinfectant. :)

It's possible that it's fungal (I'm not a vet of course so I can't say for sure) but I would be really surprised if it was scale rot. Chlorhexidine only works against bacterial infections but not fungus. I have some betadine too. I'll speak with my vet and see what she says.
Thanks for the input! :)

[jaleely]

No prob! I have an 11 year old ball python that had a little bit of scale rot when i got him. It was more *on* the scales, than between them, so i wasn't sure what it was at first. But, it was periodically over his body. Kind of a red tint to it..(not the skin under the scales) but have since just kept it clean, and done the paper towels, and poof...better! : )
It may not have been scale rot though, either *lol* dunno.
I've since just kept paper towels in there because it's easier to see when it needs cleaned, and he seems to pee in gallons so at least now i can see it rather than with other substrates *lol*
Anyway, i ramble...but yeah keep us updated! He's a nice snake : )

[AjaMichelle]

No prob! I have an 11 year old ball python that had a little bit of scale rot when i got him. It was more *on* the scales, than between them, so i wasn't sure what it was at first. But, it was periodically over his body. Kind of a red tint to it..(not the skin under the scales) but have since just kept it clean, and done the paper towels, and poof...better! : )
It may not have been scale rot though, either *lol* dunno.
I've since just kept paper towels in there because it's easier to see when it needs cleaned, and he seems to pee in gallons so at least now i can see it rather than with other substrates *lol*
Anyway, i ramble...but yeah keep us updated! He's a nice snake : )

Thanks! He's awesome. He had scale rot when I got him. It was mild, and on his tail. I was able to treat it by keeping him clean and dry. It looked completely different than this. :(

Using paper towels as a substrate will be near impossible because he's gigantic (as is his enclosure) and he likes to move everything I put in the enclosure around (except the rug). ;)

[millertime89]

I would get either rolls of newsprint to use as substrate or corrugated paper for him. 4-5 layers of the newspaper will make it easy to clean and just as easy to eliminate one possible variable. I don't think its scale rot, it looks like, as you said, he's pulled out scales. I hope you manage to figure out what the cause is, best of luck.

[AjaMichelle]

I would get either rolls of newsprint to use as substrate or corrugated paper for him. 4-5 layers of the newspaper will make it easy to clean and just as easy to eliminate one possible variable. I don't think its scale rot, it looks like, as you said, he's pulled out scales. I hope you manage to figure out what the cause is, best of luck.

Thanks! :)
The scales are still there, only they look scrape. Like the top layer has been removed.
I am going to give the newspaper a try. :)

[millertime89]

interesting. The reason I say try the rolls of newsprint is because the clean paper won't leave the ink on his scales. I've heard from other keepers of burms and retics that a result of the humidity and the crazy amount they piss the ink can rub off on their scales. You don't wan that while trying to diagnose scale issues.

[USMCgunner11]

I agree with the paper towel substrate until you get a handle on it. I doubt it's the chlorhexidine since I use it too and have for years. I buy it pre-diluted because I'm paranoid and don't want to use too much. It came recommended from my herp vet and use it for all pet related disinfecting needs.

As far as the issue you're dealing with. Scale rot is my only guess and even still it's just a guess. I would have a vet answer that one for you.

[Will0W783]

Originally quoted by AjaMichelle:Aw man that's lame!


Not sure what you mean by that....I'm lame for suggesting you take him to a vet, or him having to go to a vet is lame?

I'm only trying to help, as you asked what we all thought it could be. My advice is to have a vet look at the snake to determine if it is scale rot/fungal infection. If it is, and you don't treat the snake, it will only get worse. If it isn't, then you'll know for sure.

[jarich]

Not sure what you mean by that....I'm lame for suggesting you take him to a vet, or him having to go to a vet is lame?

I'm only trying to help, as you asked what we all thought it could be. My advice is to have a vet look at the snake to determine if it is scale rot/fungal infection. If it is, and you don't treat the snake, it will only get worse. If it isn't, then you'll know for sure.

Im positive she meant that it sucks that it needs a vet visit, not anything about you or your advice Kim. She is always very polite and open to getting help from others. She comes to us from one of the other forums, so there are a few of us that know her already. :)

[Will0W783]

Ok, good...I was just a bit taken aback by that. I do really hope that she finds out the cause of the problem...but my bets are on fungus. It really is rough; fungal infections can be very hard to eradicate, as if there is one spore left the whole infection can kick back up.

[AjaMichelle]

interesting. The reason I say try the rolls of newsprint is because the clean paper won't leave the ink on his scales. I've heard from other keepers of burms and retics that a result of the humidity and the crazy amount they piss the ink can rub off on their scales. You don't wan that while trying to diagnose scale issues.

I thought that newsprint and newspaper were the same thing! :) I'm glad you caught that, otherwise I would have just used inky newspaper lol Do you think that butcher paper would be okay to use if I can't find a roll of newsprint?

I agree with the paper towel substrate until you get a handle on it. I doubt it's the chlorhexidine since I use it too and have for years. I buy it pre-diluted because I'm paranoid and don't want to use too much. It came recommended from my herp vet and use it for all pet related disinfecting needs.

As far as the issue you're dealing with. Scale rot is my only guess and even still it's just a guess. I would have a vet answer that one for you.

I use dilute chlorhexidine too. :) The dilution rate recommended by a vet is 1 oz chlorhexidine per 32 oz of water and I was cleaning the spots previously with a chlorhexidine gluconate soap.

Not sure what you mean by that....I'm lame for suggesting you take him to a vet, or him having to go to a vet is lame?

I'm only trying to help, as you asked what we all thought it could be. My advice is to have a vet look at the snake to determine if it is scale rot/fungal infection. If it is, and you don't treat the snake, it will only get worse. If it isn't, then you'll know for sure.

Im positive she meant that it sucks that it needs a vet visit, not anything about you or your advice Kim. She is always very polite and open to getting help from others. She comes to us from one of the other forums, so there are a few of us that know her already. :)

Ok, good...I was just a bit taken aback by that. I do really hope that she finds out the cause of the problem...but my bets are on fungus. It really is rough; fungal infections can be very hard to eradicate, as if there is one spore left the whole infection can kick back up.

Vets are definitely not lame! I thought it was lame that it could be a fungal infection because they are really difficult to get rid of! :) I'm really sorry I wasn't clearer.

I always get my herps veterinary care when need be. And I really appreciate your input! :)

Here are some photos I took last night. His scales look torn. :(
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/b02f9afc.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/ff2d99ad.jpg

[GarterPython]

Sorry I can't help to much but my bets are on fungal also... He is a beauty though :)

[buffcoat]

Call your local newspaper/printshop and ask them if they sell end rolls or butt rolls. They can vary in size from 11" to 38+" wide. Most shops/papers sell them for like a buck an inch.

I stated in a previous thread, newspaper ink is almost 100% non toxic. Most places use low rub ink. Its pretty much dry by the time it comes out of the unit. Its also a very good absorbent. We use it as "towels" when we wash up :p

[Caylan]

HOnestly, I find skin conditions very common on albino snakes, regardless of what you do... I've seen ball pythons with scale deformities, Kenyans with scales practically rot away and grow back, and even seen it on a boa constrictor now... The thing in common among all these is the albinism gene. I of course then inquired about this to multiple breeders and got the same general concesus from all of them. Some blame humidity flutcuation, some blame sitting in urates for too long, but all agree its the sensitivity stemming from the albinism gene. But its more of an unless its asked question, because why advertise that. But its common knowledge for all species whom exhibit albinism can have far more sensitive skin then normal. Just how we fight it snakes is not so known.... You can try a vet visit, and I encourage it as you never know for sure, but you may gfind this something your snake will live with all it's life, and all you can do is keep it from getting worse by keeping conditions immaculate, as by what I've read you do more then most I'd say. I agree with the newsprint idea, its a great substrate for snakes with belly scale conditions, as I find papertowel gets wet to easy... Best of luck, your snake looks great other wise :D

[AjaMichelle]

Sorry I can't help to much but my bets are on fungal also... He is a beauty though :)

Thanks so much! :) He is a great snake. He has a nice personality, eats well, and is very agreeable.

Call your local newspaper/printshop and ask them if they sell end rolls or butt rolls. They can vary in size from 11" to 38+" wide. Most shops/papers sell them for like a buck an inch.

I stated in a previous thread, newspaper ink is almost 100% non toxic. Most places use low rub ink. Its pretty much dry by the time it comes out of the unit. Its also a very good absorbent. We use it as "towels" when we wash up :p

I will try my best to track some news print down. :) If I can't find any will butcher paper suffice?

HOnestly, I find skin conditions very common on albino snakes, regardless of what you do... I've seen ball pythons with scale deformities, Kenyans with scales practically rot away and grow back, and even seen it on a boa constrictor now... The thing in common among all these is the albinism gene. I of course then inquired about this to multiple breeders and got the same general concesus from all of them. Some blame humidity flutcuation, some blame sitting in urates for too long, but all agree its the sensitivity stemming from the albinism gene. But its more of an unless its asked question, because why advertise that. But its common knowledge for all species whom exhibit albinism can have far more sensitive skin then normal. Just how we fight it snakes is not so known.... You can try a vet visit, and I encourage it as you never know for sure, but you may find this something your snake will live with all it's life, and all you can do is keep it from getting worse by keeping conditions immaculate, as by what I've read you do more then most I'd say. I agree with the newsprint idea, its a great substrate for snakes with belly scale conditions, as I find papertowel gets wet to easy... Best of luck, your snake looks great other wise :D

Thanks for the compliment! He displays the brightest yellow I've ever seen on an albino. That's too bad about the sensitivity. :(

[AjaMichelle]

Update:

I removed his rug a few days ago, and removed his water bowl last night.

I have asked the same question on another forum and folks agree that this looks like scale rot. This totally sucks. I'm going to give him a betadine bath.

Also, it makes sense that it looks fungal, I'm pretty sure that goes along with scale rot. :(

[Rogue628]

I've seen WC royals with scale rot that looks really similar to that, but in bigger areas and much worse. :( I've never experienced any fungal issues but I can see where it could appear to be that too.

Poor critter. I hope it's not irritating or painful to him. :(

Otherwise he's a really gorgeous albino burm! Looks like his colors are holding well! Makes me wonder what he looked like as a hatchling! :)

Whatever it is and the cause, I hope it heals quickly and you find what's causing it so you or him won't have to deal with it again :)

[SnakeyJay]

Ooh that looks nasty... Poor "little" guy.. Really hope he gets better for you. Goodluck :D

[AjaMichelle]

I've seen WC royals with scale rot that looks really similar to that, but in bigger areas and much worse. :( I've never experienced any fungal issues but I can see where it could appear to be that too.

Poor critter. I hope it's not irritating or painful to him. :(

Otherwise he's a really gorgeous albino burm! Looks like his colors are holding well! Makes me wonder what he looked like as a hatchling! :)

Whatever it is and the cause, I hope it heals quickly and you find what's causing it so you or him won't have to deal with it again :)

He doesn't seem to be in too much discomfort. He mostly seems itchy.

He is gorgeous! I got him as an adult so unfortunately I have no baby pictures. :)

Thanks! I hope I can get rid of it this time too! It seemed to be responsive to the chlorhexidine last time.

Ooh that looks nasty... Poor "little" guy.. Really hope he gets better for you. Goodluck :D

Thanks! :)

[AjaMichelle]

Update:

I spoke with my vet. She recommended an antiseptic soak, to use a consistently clean substrate (specifically paper towels), to clean his enclosure with bleach, and to apply a topical antibiotic.

I'm going to start with betadine since I used chlorhexidine last time, paper towels, a bleach dilution rate of 1:50 (as per Insignia100), and a triple antibiotic ointment (without pain relief of course) since I have all of this at home already.

I imagine I'll bring him in for a skin scraping too.

This sucks. :(

[AjaMichelle]

Just spoke to a friend and he's going to get me some restaurant type butcher paper. :)

[Caylan]

Eh to go! Things will clear up, just a matter of time. Good call on the butcher paper over the papertowel, its just no good for giants really as I'm sure you figured out before even trying lol. Probably going to be the prettiest burm out there when its skin is all cleared up, watch the hell out everyone! Best of luck!

[millertime89]

butcher paper isn't wax coated is it? If not you should be set.

[AjaMichelle]

Eh to go! Things will clear up, just a matter of time. Good call on the butcher paper over the papertowel, its just no good for giants really as I'm sure you figured out before even trying lol. Probably going to be the prettiest burm out there when its skin is all cleared up, watch the hell out everyone! Best of luck!

Thanks! :) yeah I was set on the paper towel but I was bleaching his enclosure tonight and started thinking that as much as I would like to use it and as much as I would like to believe he won't wreck it, I know that he'll have it balled up in the corner covered in pee within an hour. Because that's how Monty rolls.

Definitely going to be the prettiest burm once we clear his skin up!

butcher paper isn't wax coated is it? If not you should be set.

I'm almost positive that it's not. It's just regular butcher paper used in BBQ joints. :)

[AjaMichelle]

Update:

So I fed Monty on the 16th and he became active again day before yesterday! It was only a 5 pound rabbit lol...

He made a nice big pee mess today where he coated every inch of the floor with "fluids" so I made sure to take him out and give him a bath. He swam around and drank in the bathtub for about half an hour, then I gave him a betadine soak. He tolerated it better this time. His scales looked about the same despite not having a bath for a week.

A friend also brought me a roll of unwaxed butcher paper, so I'm pretty excited about that. :)

Here are some photos

Swimming in the bath tub, mesmerized by the faucet dripping on his snakey face lol :) He finds this part the most interesting ha ha
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/1ea3d6c3.jpg

Back in the enclosure with his butcher paper! He approves
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/0c218759.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/b377ac0d.jpg

The dopiest face! :)
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r544/_AjaMichelle_/e0624c12.jpg

[shaunyboy]

he's such a cute big guy :D

hows his scales coming along ?

cheers shaun

[Caylan]

Definitely looking awesome, the butcher paper is a nice touch too! I want some for my carpet pythons now lol!

[marvelfreak]

I love that last picture.

[alessia55]

Thanks for the updated pics :yes:
How's he doing with his scales??

[jaleely]

I really think he is soo cute. He's the cutest big snake i've seen!
It's so awesome of you to be doing all you can to help him, too. You are pretty darn awesome!! And it was pretty cool of your friend to bring you the paper too!!

[AjaMichelle]

he's such a cute big guy :D

hows his scales coming along ?

cheers shaun

Thanks!

Definitely looking awesome, the butcher paper is a nice touch too! I want some for my carpet pythons now lol!

Thanks! I came home last night to him lying between the layers. *sighs* That's why I put in two... :)

I love that last picture.

Isn't it the cutest!? :)

Thanks for the updated pics :yes:
How's he doing with his scales??

I really think he is soo cute. He's the cutest big snake i've seen!
It's so awesome of you to be doing all you can to help him, too.

He’s got so much personality and so many weird little quirks! I’ve never been around another Burmese so I don’t know if the things he does are normal but he’s a pretty dopey snake, in a good way. Any time he swims in the bathtub he likes to let water drip on his head from the faucet. I have a showerhead on a hose and was using it to fill his box for the betadine soak and he came out of the tub and put his head under the spray. I was like “ooookay…” He’s also kind of obsessed with smelling hands. When I feed him he rarely strikes and coils. Instead he spends 15 to 20 minutes contemplating which end of the rabbit is the head, and during his contemplation, gnaws on the head and feet until he’s sure, and then he eats. He dreams. When he’s really excited his head twitches. I try not to anthropomorphize, but he makes it hard!

And don’t get me wrong; the quirks I find silly and cute don’t encourage me to forget that he’s a giant snake. I’m not complacent.

His scales are the same. The worst of it is around his vent, which is unfortunate. But it’s definitely not worse then it was before I fed him, and it’s still better comparatively then how it looked the first time.

You are pretty darn awesome!! And it was pretty cool of your friend to bring you the paper too!!

Thanks! I'm trying! I hope it goes away completely this time. :/ Otherwise we have to go to the vet for sure. My friend is awesome :) He keeps large constrictors too so he knows how it is.