Max

[BarelyBreathing]

When I woke up this morning, everything seemed fine. When I came back in the house I notice Max (Varanus doreanus) was sitting in an odd position on his favorite branch and kind of waving his hand at me. I opened his enclosure to see what was going on, and he normally comes charging at the door with his mouth open looking to kill something. He didn't do that. He hobbled slowly on three legs about six inches and gave up. I noticed that the fingers on his front left hand were extremely swollen and bleeding, so I grabbed a towel to cover him with, put him in the crate, and we left for the vet.

Being at the vet's was awful. He kept thrashing, hissing, and trying to bite. I have no idea how, but he was restrained long enough to get a few x-rays. The bones in two of his fingers were twisted and broken, and skinned on the bottom and insides. He also had a minor fracture in his wrist. We're assuming he got stuck on something in his enclosure and the injuries are a result of him trying to escape. It also appeared that infection began to set in in the area that was opened.

The good news is the vet told me he had an otherwise very healthy skeletal structure, so as long as he's limited in mobility, he should heal quickly.


The vet gave him an injection of antibiotics and put some gooey yellow stuff on his toes and covered it with a bandage. The bandage lasted all of four seconds (we counted, because we were taking bets on how long it would stay on).

I have to give him oral antibiotics for seven days, so unfortunately this means I get to make a lovely blender concoction of ground turkey, ground fuzzies, and ground roaches with his medication. I also have to keep him immobile and keep the wound dry. Right now he is in a 30 gallon glass tank. It's in his enclosure, so it's still very much climate controlled. I will put the basking light on him twice a day, once for five minutes and once for ten. He doesn't have any substrate in there so I can assure everything is very clean.

Right now he's very lethargic. I'm not sure if it's from the injury (he wasn't lethargic in the vet's office at all), stress, medication, or just general defeat of being confined in such a small environment.

I'm leaving him alone right now, but tomorrow I will go in and tear up everything in his enclosure to figure out what he got stuck on.

Any tips, guys?

[Lankyrob]

Sorry to hear it happened, seems like you have it under control tho :) keep us updated with how it all goes :)

[BarelyBreathing]

I am in COMPLETE PANIC MODE right now! I'm freaking out. If this was anybody else's monitor, I'd be calm. Heck, if this were any of my other monitors, I'd still (perhaps not be calm, but) be less frantic. But it's MAX!

[jarich]

I have to give him oral antibiotics for seven days, so unfortunately this means I get to make a lovely blender concoction of ground turkey, ground fuzzies, and ground roaches with his medication. I also have to keep him immobile and keep the wound dry. Right now he is in a 30 gallon glass tank. It's in his enclosure, so it's still very much climate controlled. I will put the basking light on him twice a day, once for five minutes and once for ten. He doesn't have any substrate in there so I can assure everything is very clean.

Right now he's very lethargic. I'm not sure if it's from the injury (he wasn't lethargic in the vet's office at all), stress, medication, or just general defeat of being confined in such a small environment.

I'm leaving him alone right now, but tomorrow I will go in and tear up everything in his enclosure to figure out what he got stuck on.

Any tips, guys?

Yikes! How the heck do you keep a healthy monitor immobile?! I dont envy you the next couple weeks. Sorry to hear about that. The lethargic thing sounds about right. After all that stress Im sure he is very worn out. His stress hormone levels are through the roof, so odds are at least he isnt feeling any pain.

Have you got a black light? Shining it around the enclosure should show you the blood he left from whatever he was stuck at.

[varanus_mad]

Out of curiosity why did the vet not splint the breaks?

One other thing arent you limiting your monitors healing capabilities by restricting it in such a mannor?

Possibly the limb in question should of been restrained against the monitors body totally to further immobilise it.

[BarelyBreathing]

Yikes! How the heck do you keep a healthy monitor immobile?! I dont envy you the next couple weeks. Sorry to hear about that. The lethargic thing sounds about right. After all that stress Im sure he is very worn out. His stress hormone levels are through the roof, so odds are at least he isnt feeling any pain.

Have you got a black light? Shining it around the enclosure should show you the blood he left from whatever he was stuck at.


I do! That's a great idea, Jarich! I'm not in any real hurry to do it because he's stuck in another tank, but I will do it as soon as I feel he's less stressed.


Out of curiosity why did the vet not splint the breaks?

One other thing arent you limiting your monitors healing capabilities by restricting it in such a mannor?

Possibly the limb in question should of been restrained against the monitors body totally to further immobilise it.


The vet tried to splint it. It was off in four seconds.

I don't know. Max is such a high energy animal we both felt that he would further injure himself if he were left to his own devices. I don't think it was thought of to be restrained against the body. I'll call back and see what they think of that. It seems to be a great idea. Thanks.

[alessia55]

Poor Max! I wonder what happened :hmm:
At least you seemed to have found him just in time. Giving him the antibiotics isn't going to be easy... good luck with that!!
I hope he improves quickly. Poor bugger probably doesn't like being cooped up in a 30gal.

[SpOoKy]

Oh my gosh, i am so sorry to hear this...poor guy :(
Hopefully he makes a full recovery for you guys.

[Trollbie]

Poor Maxie! I'll send him good vibes!

[infernalis]

Owe... hoping for a speedy recovery.

[Gungirl]

Wow.. that is rough. I hope you find what he got stuck on/in.. Any chance of posting up a few pics of his enclosure and him? I would love to see what he is housed in and see him also:)

[BarelyBreathing]

I plan on taking a few of his injuries tomorrow, or at least once he settles down. He seems really stressed right now. I'll snap a few of his enclosure when I look for what he go snagged in.

[Gungirl]

Ok thanks..

[marvelfreak]

Hear hoping for a spend recover for the poor guy.

[varanus_mad]

I do! That's a great idea, Jarich! I'm not in any real hurry to do it because he's stuck in another tank, but I will do it as soon as I feel he's less stressed.





The vet tried to splint it. It was off in four seconds.

I don't know. Max is such a high energy animal we both felt that he would further injure himself if he were left to his own devices. I don't think it was thought of to be restrained against the body. I'll call back and see what they think of that. It seems to be a great idea. Thanks.

I hope it works out for him.

Ill be very surprised if he doesnt lose his fingers though.

The other problem with that set up is while yes he risks injuring himself further but with your method... his ability to fight infections will be compromised at least thats how i feel anyway.

Good luck with him anyway.

[BarelyBreathing]

I hope it works out for him.

Ill be very surprised if he doesnt lose his fingers though.

The other problem with that set up is while yes he risks injuring himself further but with your method... his ability to fight infections will be compromised at least thats how i feel anyway.

Good luck with him anyway.


Yeah, I was told to expect that (either naturally or surgically). :(

I called my vet after I read what you said (I know I just sent this to you in PM but I figured it was important for everyone to see, too). I was told that pinning the arm up against his body would compromise circulation. That wouldn't be good.

Max will be allowed to wander only the bottom of his enclosure (I have to take out everything he can climb on or put him in an old enclosure I'm trying to sell) after he's finished with his medication and the wound heals over.

I really don't know what else I can do. I've checked in on him twice, and he's sleeping, but he's been in different positions each time. Hubby has gone out to get him a new stuffed animal (don't ask, he loves them) to at least give him something to do.

[jaleely]

awwww! *hugs* poor lil thing. It's so hard when you know they're hurt and there's nothing you can do except wait. awww.... Feel better soon Max!

[BarelyBreathing]

Thanks a bunch. Good news, though. He ate his vomit inducing dinner (I tested it out to make sure he would). And he legitimately tried to kill me.

[KORBIN5895]

What species is he again? Wouldn't it have been wiser to just remove the toes since he has such a high chance of losing them anyway?

[BarelyBreathing]

He's a blue tailed monitor.

General anesthesia is very dangerous for a reptile. It wasn't a risk I was willing to take. Plus, the after care would have been much the same.

Edit: I'm awaiting a friend to come baby sit him today. He's a vet tech at my vet's office, so I know he'll be in good hands while I go to the reptile expo.

[KORBIN5895]

Forgive my ignorance but couldn't he be given a local anesthesia?

[Gregg M]

Honestly, I would have never taken him to the vet for such a minor injury. I also would not have made his stress any worse by changing his cage. These are varanids, not puppies or kittens. Most of the time vet visits make things worse when it comes to insignificant injuries like broken or severed fingers. It might sound like a major injury but in the animal world, it is common. I have seen HEALTHY wild gators with missing limbs and even tails.

Also, infection does not set in that quickly. Repties are particularly resilient to infection when they are being properly cared for. I we have had an ackie lose an entire hand while he was trying to breed an unreceptive female. No vet visit or change of cage required. Pulled through just fine. healed up in no time actually.

And seriously, stuffed animals will not help your monitor feel better. The only one it makes feel better is you.

My advice to you is to calm down and put Max back in his regular cage with all its furnishings and stop constantly checking on him. The more stressed he is, the longer it will take for him to recover.

[millertime89]

I have seen HEALTHY wild gators with missing limbs and even tails.

It was my understanding that gators and other crocs have an immune system unparalleled in other animals and when they lose a limb that the risk of infection is effectively 0 and that the wound closes up surprisingly fast. Is it the same with monitors?

[Gregg M]

It was my understanding that gators and other crocs have an immune system unparalleled in other animals and when they lose a limb that the risk of infection is effectively 0 and that the wound closes up surprisingly fast. Is it the same with monitors?

Very much the same. It is well documented that varanids have very high metabolisms. Metabolic rates have much to do with healing. In fact, after injury, the metabolic rate increases in all vertibrates. High metabolic rates also back immune systems in fighting off infection.

[millertime89]

Hmm... is that just with reptilians? Cuz our immune systems suck and we've got pretty high metabolisms.
I'm well aware monitors have high metabolisms. One of my professors this past semester was a biologist/geologist specializing in reptiles and while talking with him about monitors he actually made mention of a study that showed monitors are able to raise their metabolism independent of their body temperature.

[BarelyBreathing]

See, at the time I didn't know that was it. I just knew that this was bothering him enough to totally affect his behavior.

And Gregg, he has/had (it's well torn apart now) a stuffed squeaky turtle that he carries with it and squeaks it. Since he ripped it open, we pulled everything (including the squeaker) out. We got him a new one, and he's been sqeaking it since I've gotten home.

Anyway, update: He at dinner last night, he at again today. He's also been moved into a 90 gallon. He's pretty much been acting himself.

[Trollbie]

Honestly, I would have never taken him to the vet for such a minor injury. I also would not have made his stress any worse by changing his cage. These are varanids, not puppies or kittens. Most of the time vet visits make things worse when it comes to insignificant injuries like broken or severed fingers. It might sound like a major injury but in the animal world, it is common. I have seen HEALTHY wild gators with missing limbs and even tails.

Also, infection does not set in that quickly. Repties are particularly resilient to infection when they are being properly cared for. I we have had an ackie lose an entire hand while he was trying to breed an unreceptive female. No vet visit or change of cage required. Pulled through just fine. healed up in no time actually.

And seriously, stuffed animals will not help your monitor feel better. The only one it makes feel better is you.

My advice to you is to calm down and put Max back in his regular cage with all its furnishings and stop constantly checking on him. The more stressed he is, the longer it will take for him to recover.

Whether it's silly or not, if it's not hurting the animal or stressing it out, who cares if it has a stuffed animal in it's cage?

[Gregg M]

Whether it's silly or not, if it's not hurting the animal or stressing it out, who cares if it has a stuffed animal in it's cage?

Honestly speaking, it is rediculous and unessisary. These are not companion animals. They do not need or want toys to keep them happy. This sends out a poor message when it comes to the true nature of these animals. Varanids do not carry things in their mouth unless they plan to eat it. This type of BS information is not something any potential new keeper should be subject to. Any varanid keeper worth his or her weight in salt would never even think of offering a squeaky toy to their varanid. Also, if a bluetail is being kept properly, a stuffed toy would become a soggy, festering ball of bacteria and mold.

What harm can it cause? Crap like this can help bring varanid keeping back 20 years.

BB, until you post a vid of your bluetail carrying a stuffed toy around and making it squeak, I am calling BS. It is just something they do not do. There is nothing natural about them just picking stuff up in their mouths for enjoyment or ammusement.

[BarelyBreathing]

Really, Gregg? They don't carry things in their mouths? Max used to carry his turtle up the branches, and when it fell he would go back down and get it. He will carry it to his basking spot and rest his head on it. And all I'd hear is *squeak squeak squeak*. Explain that.

(And yes, it frequently became soggy. Lucky enough for me I have these great things called a washer and a dryer. Amazing, huh?)

I have pictures of him laying on it. In many different parts of the enclosure. I have also heard stories of other monitors carrying toys around. My friend's black throat also has a squeaky that he plays with.

[GarterPython]

Alot of people give there monitors stuffed toys. I have seen alot of people that have monitors that carry a stuffed animal around all the time. BB is a good keeper and cars about her animals. I don't know much about monitors but I know what I have seen.

[Gregg M]

Alot of people give there monitors stuffed toys.

Yeah, the same people who can not keep their monitors alive for more than a couple of years.

This is getting too stupid for words.

BB, I can take a picture of my monitors sitting on a stack of hundreds. It does not mean they went out and worked a week to earn it. Pictures mean squat. I want to see a few vids with sound. I am so tired of the BS that comes flying out of your keyboard. You are always talking and NEVER back anything up.

[BarelyBreathing]

Okay, you're right. Monitors are stupid animals that don't need enrichment.

What does an animal working a job to get money have anything to do with whether or not is squeaks a squeaky toy? You're ridiculous. And I HAVE backed things up. If you don't like me, block me. Because the way I see it, you're just a thug who likes to have things "my way, and if you don't do it my way, you're stupid and I hate you".

Here's Max and the turtle. I'm sorry he doesn't fit into your perfect idea of what a monitor should be. Congratulations, I'm a terrible keeper because I gave my monitor a friggin toy!

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m611/SnakeShed/DSC_0003.jpg

[Gregg M]

Okay, you're right. Monitors are stupid animals that don't need enrichment.

I never said they do not need enrichment. I said they do not need or want chew toys. That is not enrichment for monitors. Enrichment for monitors involves proper husbandry, plenty of space to move around, and breeding. Monitors do not carry stuff around because they like to. Naturally, the only thing that goes in their mouth is food or the hand that feeds them

What does an animal working a job to get money have anything to do with whether or not is squeaks a squeaky toy? You're ridiculous. And I HAVE backed things up. If you don't like me, block me. Because the way I see it, you're just a thug who likes to have things "my way, and if you don't do it my way, you're stupid and I hate you".

My point was that a photo of your lizard near a stuffed toy means nothing and proves nothing. Lets see a photo of max carrying it around. If he does it so often, it should be no problem getting the shot. A vid would be even better though. The only photo of max and his frog you have ever posted was the one of him above it. The same one in your last post

I can block you but then that removes any chance I have to call out your inconsistant BS. The reason I do that is so new keepers do not try to do the same stupid things you do like offer a lizard a stuffed sqeaky toy.

If it makes you feel better to put words in my mouth thats fine but I do not hate you because you do stupid things with your animals and make outragious claims without even the slightest bit of backing. Thats right, you have never backed up anything you have said here.

You said you work for a place that has bred several generations of savannahs without using rodents in the diet at all. Never showed proof.

You also said they get baby Komodo dragons. Never showed proof.

You claimed to have bred and hatched V. similis. Never showed any proof.

You have a 5 foot Black Roughneck in an 8x6x6 foot cage. Never posted any proof.

Your bluetail carries around and actually squeaks a stuffed toy. Never showed a stitch of proof.

Here's Max and the turtle. I'm sorry he doesn't fit into your perfect idea of what a monitor should be.

Actually, I am sorry that you are trying to make your monitor out to be something it isnt. It is not a companion animal. It does not need, want, or seek out your attention or the toys you offer it.

Congratulations, I'm a terrible keeper because I gave my monitor a friggin toy!

I never said that. Apparently, I did not have to.

[Trollbie]

Would a monitor put something in his mouth that isn't food? They're smart so I'm sure they know stuffed toys aren't food.

I have no experience with monitors so I'm not trying to claim anything. But you make it sound like you talk to your monitors since you know so well that they do not want toys. I wouldn't take advice from someone with your approach.

Since you know everything, maybe you could prove that they in fact don't WANT any toys.

[BarelyBreathing]

How does a turtle hurt a monitor? It's definitely healthier than telling a new keeper who can't get their husbandry right to offer their mainly insectivorous lizard fatty things like mice.

I have shown you a picture of the baby similis.

I have NEVER said I worked anywhere that bred monitors. I volunteer. Not often.

I've posted pictures of my roughneck. I left for a while because of rude comments from you, actually. I needed to cool down.

And apparently you are blind, because I JUST posted a picture of my monitor laying on his toy.

Name ONE THING that I am doing wrong with my monitors? One thing. And then explain to me how this thing is so detrimental that my husbandry shouldn't be visible to beginner keepers. And then explain how my husbandry is so horrible that in twelve years of keeping monitors (yes, I got my first monitor at the age of thirteen) I have NEVER had one die on me (except very ill ones that have come in through a rescue).

Until you can show me that, quit bullying me. You have offered ZERO help with the situation. You can stop hijacking my thread with your hot headed remarks now.

[Gregg M]

Would a monitor put something in his mouth that isn't food? They're smart so I'm sure they know stuffed toys aren't food.

I have no experience with monitors so I'm not trying to claim anything. But you make it sound like you talk to your monitors since you know so well that they do not want toys. I wouldn't take advice from someone with your approach.

Since you know everything, maybe you could prove that they in fact don't WANT any toys.

Sorry Trollbie,
I refuse to debate proper varanid husbandry and behavior with someone who does not have experience with them. If you have any spacific questions, I will be more than happy to answer them for you if I can.

How does a turtle hurt a monitor? It's definitely healthier than telling a new keeper who can't get their husbandry right to offer their mainly insectivorous lizard fatty things like mice.

Something else you have stated yet have shown no proof that mice are not a proper part of a varanids diet.

I have shown you a picture of the baby similis..

No, you have shown the head of A similis. You have shown not pictures of one hatching. You have not shown a picture of an egg incubating. No photos of the pair that produced it. No copulation pictures or anything. Any data on incubation time?

I have NEVER said I worked anywhere that bred monitors. I volunteer. Not often.

Worked, volunteer, same crap. You still showed no proof of your claims.

I've posted pictures of my roughneck. I left for a while because of rude comments from you, actually. I needed to cool down..

Yeah, a photo with nothing for size comparison. It did not look like a 5 foot lizard in the photo I have seen.

And apparently you are blind, because I JUST posted a picture of my monitor laying on his toy.

Thats not how it looks. Ether way it is one photo of one fraction of time. No proof of what you are claiming.

Name ONE THING that I am doing wrong with my monitors? One thing. And then explain to me how this thing is so detrimental that my husbandry shouldn't be visible to beginner keepers.

Maybe the fact that your monitor almost twisted its foot off in caging you provided and then you stressing it out to no end by bringing it to a vet and changing its cage? Bringing a varanid to a vet is like bringing your BMW to a hobby shop to get serviced. Telling people that an all invert diet is all a varanid needs? Telling them that mice are like feeding them fast food? Making people believe that monitors may play fetch with their favorite squeaky toy? These are things that new keepers should never consider.

And then explain how my husbandry is so horrible that in twelve years of keeping monitors (yes, I got my first monitor at the age of thirteen) I have NEVER had one die on me (except very ill ones that have come in through a rescue)..
I have been working with monitors since I was eleven.
Really? which one is it? 11 or 13? Now do you see what I mean about inconsistancies? Stop the BS.
How can you possibly provide a varanid with what it needs at the age of 11 or 13 or what ever age you really started working with them at? You cant.

So you must have a 12 year old peach throat, a 12 year old nile, and some 12 year old ackies if you indeed have not lost any?

Until you can show me that, quit bullying me. You have offered ZERO help with the situation. You can stop hijacking my thread with your hot headed remarks now.

I offered some great advice that you chose to ignor obviously.

[millertime89]

Really? which one is it? 11 or 13? Now do you see what I mean about inconsistancies? Stop the BS.

You should read that part of her statement again.
I'm sorry Gregg, all you're doing now is acting a bully. You have successfully pissed someone off by attacking not only her successful methods of keeping her monitors, but also her own personal observations with her monitors. Right now you're being no better than mikee when he refuses to accept ball python owners observations that their snakes will sometimes only eat a certain type of rat (color/gender/temp/etc.) You know the saying "you attract more bees with honey than vinegar"? You might try it sometime.

BB, could you please post some pictures of your enclosures in their entirety as well as a video of Max with his squeaker if you have one?

You see how easy that was? Tact and diplomacy, you should try it sometime...

[Trollbie]

I'm not trying to debate proper varanid care. I'm saying that as a noob, I would not want to take any advice from you because you come off arrogant and close minded. Which is a shame if you actually have a lot of knowledge. Like millertime said, a little tact goes a long way.

[Gregg M]

You should read that part of her statement again.

No need to. In one thread she said she has been keeping varanids since she was 11 and in this thread she says she was 13. What do I need to reread?

I'm sorry Gregg, all you're doing now is acting a bully. You have successfully pissed someone off by attacking not only her successful methods of keeping her monitors, but also her own personal observations with her monitors. Right now you're being no better than mikee when he refuses to accept ball python owners observations that their snakes will sometimes only eat a certain type of rat (color/gender/temp/etc.) You know the saying "you attract more bees with honey than vinegar"? You might try it sometime.

I am just sick of the constant lies and BS that comes out of her. Enough is enough. Either she puts up or shuts up. Believe me, I am not the only one tired of this. I am just the only one who will put it out there.

BB, could you please post some pictures of your enclosures in their entirety as well as a video of Max with his squeaker if you have one?

You see how easy that was? Tact and diplomacy, you should try it sometime...

I have tried this numerous times and all I have gotten in return was "My computer is not working right" or "the pics are on my other computer" or "look it up, you should find the link on another site (that does not exist)"... That and a few snap shots that show nothing at all. Kind of like those old bigfoot photos.

[Trent]

You should read that part of her statement again.
I'm sorry Gregg, all you're doing now is acting a bully. You have successfully pissed someone off by attacking not only her successful methods of keeping her monitors, but also her own personal observations with her monitors. Right now you're being no better than mikee when he refuses to accept ball python owners observations that their snakes will sometimes only eat a certain type of rat (color/gender/temp/etc.) You know the saying "you attract more bees with honey than vinegar"? You might try it sometime.

BB, could you please post some pictures of your enclosures in their entirety as well as a video of Max with his squeaker if you have one?

You see how easy that was? Tact and diplomacy, you should try it sometime...

How do you know she is successfull?...because she says she is?
You have to admit there are some real oddities in some of her stories.
I am not picking a side ,but if you sit back and read some of her posts over the last few months....I think Gregg has already asked for videos!

[Gregg M]

I'm not trying to debate proper varanid care. I'm saying that as a noob, I would not want to take any advice from you because you come off arrogant and close minded. Which is a shame if you actually have a lot of knowledge. Like millertime said, a little tact goes a long way.

Well then that would be your loss and a loss to your varanids. Unlike BB, who just SAYS she has lots of success, I have solid proof of my success. You call it arrogance, I call it certainty. Close minded? Why, because I have been keeping varanids for so long I know what they do not do?
If you can not take some no BS straight shooting without a sugar coating, that is your problem.

[Trollbie]

How do you know she is successfull?...because she says she is?
You have to admit there are some real oddities in some of her stories.
I am not picking a side ,but if you sit back and read some of her posts over the last few months....I think Gregg has already asked for videos!

He may or may not be right. I think the point is that his approach comes off as bullying.

[Trent]

He may or may not be right. I think the point is that his approach comes off as bullying.

Could be or some would say straight to the point.

[Jay]

^^ He is right.
This forum has become a clan, people are standing up for others without even knowing what they are standing up for. Greg is clearly a solid person who knows his monitors. So your're not going to take his advice because he didn't serve it to you with a cherry on top. Open your eyes

"pics or it didn't happen"

Sorry for the grammar its 3:30 am and I'm just a little tipsy.

[Trollbie]

Well then that would be your loss and a loss to your varanids. Unlike BB, who just SAYS she has lots of success, I have solid proof of my success. You call it arrogance, I call it certainty. Close minded? Why, because I have been keeping varanids for so long I know what they do not do?

I said you come off that way. I didn't say you are because I don't know you.

What bothers me is that you say you know what they want and what they don't want.

You might be right that a sqeuaky toy is not necessary, but that doesn't mean they don't want it. Unless you're some awesome varanid whisperer, you don't actually know what they want. You know what they need and what makes them healthier and happier by observation. But observation doesn't necessarily tell you everything there possibly is to know about them.

I'm not questioning your knowledge. I have no place to do that. But not everyone has the same experience as you have. And by that I mean there doesn't have to be one specific way to be successful with monitors.

[varanus_mad]

ive been keeping/researching/working with varanids for the last 7 years...

i have not once come across a living varanid that engages in play activity. in such a mammalian way

[Gregg M]

I said you come off that way. I didn't say you are because I don't know you.

What bothers me is that you say you know what they want and what they don't want.

You might be right that a sqeuaky toy is not necessary, but that doesn't mean they don't want it. Unless you're some awesome varanid whisperer, you don't actually know what they want. You know what they need and what makes them healthier and happier by observation. But observation doesn't necessarily tell you everything there possibly is to know about them.

I'm not questioning your knowledge. I have no place to do that. But not everyone has the same experience as you have. And by that I mean there doesn't have to be one specific way to be successful with monitors.

Ok, so what natural behavior would you say monitors would display in the wild that would simulate their want for a stuffed toy in captivity?

Do they find cool sticks and carry them around in the wild? Maybe a sparkly rock? A dead mammal? No, they would eat that.

They do not need anything in captivity that they do not get in the wild. We are talking hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. They are not going to change over night in captivity.

Varanids are some of the most intelligent (if not the most) reptiles out there. Who are you to say he doesn't (for whatever reason) enjoy chewing on the squeaker? Dogs chew on their damn squeaky toys as well, why is that?

That train of thought has me interested, I'll have to dig into it some more.

That is a natural behavior for dogs. Complex mammals need play time, bonding, and affectition. It is part of their evolution and the secret to their survival. Reptiles, including varanids do not require those things to live, thirive, or anything else. They are just not wired that way. Who am I to say? Just someone who has been keeping reptiles for the well over 20 years. But hey, what do I know, I am just a bully.

The reason I am getting on BB is because of the constant lies and inconsistancies in her posts. Call me a bully for trying to keep BS out of varanid information. Thats fine. If she is successful and what she says is true, why is it so hard to produce proof? What has she shown you that leads you to believe she is successful?

[millertime89]

ive been keeping/researching/working with varanids for the last 7 years...

i have not once come across a living varanid that engages in play activity. in such a mammalian way

have you ever presented the opportunity to more than a small group of individuals? Its been demonstrated time and again that even reptilians have their quirks.

[varanus_mad]

have you ever presented the opportunity to more than a small group of individuals? Its been demonstrated time and again that even reptilians have their quirks.

Yes they do all are individuals but until i see physical evidence of it i.e. a video its BS

And out of interest what possible reason could i have for giving a varanid a toy?

They dont work on that level plain and simple.

But tell you what when im back keeping varanids ill offer one a squeaky toy and see what happens.

Just to show im reasonable.

[varanus_mad]

The close mindedness of some of the individuals on this forum is astounding. Just because YOU haven't experienced it it must mean that NOBODY has EVER experienced it, right?


Until it happens my experience tells me its BS

[millertime89]

Just cuz I don't need a TV or my laptop or my snakes for that mater doesn't mean I don't want them.

miss this or just ignoring it? Ever stop to consider that in your 20 years of keeping monitors that there might be something that you haven't learned yet?

Monitors are inquisitive creatures right? When presented with something unfamiliar and nonthreatening they're going to want to figure it out right? Maybe he's not "playing" maybe he's trying to figure out what is making that stupid noise.

[millertime89]

youtube. go search "monitor lizard and toy" there's a few interesting ones. Some can be explained as "feeding responses" some can't. Some I can't watch because my computer is being stupid.

[Gregg M]

miss this or just ignoring it? Ever stop to consider that in your 20 years of keeping monitors that there might be something that you haven't learned yet?

Monitors are inquisitive creatures right? When presented with something unfamiliar and nonthreatening they're going to want to figure it out right? Maybe he's not "playing" maybe he's trying to figure out what is making that stupid noise.

You are comparing apples to steak dude. You can not compare the materialistic nature of us humans to what reptiles "want"

In over 20 years of keeping, I have not learned everything. However collectively, you get 6 varanid keepers together and you may have 100 combined years where this behavior has never been observed. What are the odds that someone who claims to have been keeping for 12 years (in reality it is most likely half that) would observe this new behavior?

[Trollbie]

This is interesting...
JI_3DnDpNt8

[Trollbie]

And this...
kvd40HruOis

[Gregg M]

youtube. go search "monitor lizard and toy" there's a few interesting ones. Some can be explained as "feeding responses" some can't. Some I can't watch because my computer is being stupid.

Every one of those vids is a feeding response. It does not take an expert to figure it out. I did not see one vid that shows a varanid carrying a toy around and using it as a pillow.

[varanus_mad]

None of those vids are play behaviours they are reponses to possible food sources.

What BB is suggesting is that her blue tail has a tangible bond with it.

of course varanids investigate things have you ever noticed the way they react to sounds?

React once look round see its not a threat then dont react again.

Ive seen boscs try to eat socks, trees, logs... all in the pursuit of being a poss food source

[Trollbie]

None of those vids are play behaviours they are reponses to possible food sources.

What BB is suggesting is that her blue tail has a tangible bond with it.

of course varanids investigate things have you ever noticed the way they react to sounds?

React once look round see its not a threat then dont react again.

Ive seen boscs try to eat socks, trees, logs... all in the pursuit of being a poss food source


In the description of the first video, the person says those 2 objects are the ones he always takes interest in when out. Why only those 2? Does he think they're food after all this time? The person said something about scents.

[varanus_mad]

In the description of the first video, the person says those 2 objects are the ones he always takes interest in when out. Why only those 2? Does he think they're food after all this time? The person said something about scents.

My guess they both smell like food.

One of the items looks like a food probe the other a tuppenware lid.. for food.

[Trollbie]

My guess they both smell like food.

One of the items looks like a food probe the other a tuppenware lid.. for food.

It's a fridge thermostat. I'm actually not sure if those come into contact with food. But wouldn't he have figured out that it's not food even if it smells like it?

You could be totally right. I'm asking out of curiosity

[Charlie64]

lol Monitor soccer @ the video

[varanus_mad]

It's a fridge thermostat. I'm actually not sure if those come into contact with food. But wouldn't he have figured out that it's not food even if it smells like it?

You could be totally right. I'm asking out of curiosity

Monitors are dumb in some very specialised ways if it smells like food theyll keep trying in case it magically produces food... Thats why it keeps going back and pushing test biting.

If its a possible escape route by heck theyll keep trying till they get out.

i used to feed my lot out of a bucket all of them when roaming the rep room would walk up and sniff/bite the bucket for at least a minute.

The boscs reaction is movement plain and simple they react very readily to movement any movement that even resembles a prey item.

[Charlie64]

I'm buying that greg dude a stuffed turtle for his B-day. I think he likes stuffed turtles.

[mo9e64]

The point is newbies should not expect this behaviour,mammalian expectations are too high already.When people have these bonding expectations of monitors they are really saying being a true monitior isn't acceptable my idea of what a monitor should is!
I picked Bluetail Monitors because of their beauty,realizing their nature doesn't always coincide with my need to interact.If i want that bond it will be them accepting me on their terms.Rullom has expectations of his Melinus(a similar species) on another thread,i'm not sure he knows what he's getting into because those types of monitors like mine can spend alot time fleeing and hiding.But being a reptile more aware of their environment,it might come out outgoing and friendly-no absolutes.
I remember on KS every once in awhile there would be fake posts to get people riled up,those posts can still be used for learning.Does BB's Bluetail play with toys,really does it matter-it gives people a chance to understand monitors from other perspectives.

[BarelyBreathing]

Dude, if YOU actually read, I said I started working with monitors at eleven. As in, my brother had some and let me help out. He even gave me my own designanted animals to care for. I started keeping my own without his help two years later, which I am sure I've stated somewhere on this forum before.

Wayne, please close this thread. We have another Frank Retes in the house, and I do not approve of my help thread about my monitor's injury turning into a circus. Oh, wait, that's what's already happened. Please close this thread.

[infernalis]

Temporarily closed.

I will sort this later