varanus melinus Breeding

[rullom]

Hi all, i am not sure where to post this so I will post in a couple places. I wanted to gather anyone's experience with this monitor's breeding. I am very concerned with how to prepare suitable egg laying grounds whether it is a basket or the entire cage etc. What worries me is 'egg bounding' females due to unsuitable deposition spots. Please comment in any direction. I have much to learn.
Thanks
Mike

[infernalis]

I didn't know you already had an account.

Cool. Good to see you here.

No need to post multiple times, Our Monitor guys check in frequently.

[BarelyBreathing]

How do you have them set up?

[infernalis]

Moving to Varanids.

[jarich]

Wow, youre breeding melinus?! Good job. How long have you had them? Who did you get them from? I think there is only one guy here in North America that breeds them, though Im not sure how many in Europe have. There is a guy called Mikes Monitors on a few forums who knows a breeder that has had pretty good success with melinus.

Crocdoc hasnt been on in awhile, but Im sure he can also help. Gregg, do you have any input?

[rullom]

Sorry didn't want to get your hopes up.....I have not started breeding them but I am up to breeding challenges as I was able to overcome with chams back when nobody was breeding those. Right now I am just working on housing the little guy/gal.

I picked him(i refer to him form now on but i don't know sex) up at port credit....I'll post picks when he gets properly acclimatized. He is about 6in plus tail i would say. I think he's eating about 10+ large crux that I have watched. I will also send picks of the cage. The first day I had him in my modified screen cage that was 48Lx30Hx16W but I couldn't get the ambient temps to a proper state so I went out and bought an exoterra glass 36Hx24Lx18W. This is much better although the hight still prevents me from getting the gradient I am happy with. I know I discussed this with many others about the bulb wattages etc but we must be using different companies or something. Before all of you freak out because you use 1/4 of the wattage and get the same or better results, know that I am obsessed with perfection and check the temperature every hr to half hr until bed time even now 3 days later.

I have 1 100w "intense" exoterra, 1 100w "daylight" exoterra, 1 75w "rainforest" exoterra bulb, and 1 5% UBV cooly strip or what ever....each of these take up one quadrant of the top screening. Now temperature wise I have anywhere from 130 to 80ish along the top perching areas and it falls to around 72 to the ground. I would rather the ground be 80 but I cannot get this unless I get a bulb shining on the glass near the bottom of the cage BUT I don't want to do this since the glass heats up quite a bit. Please critique on.... I am open to suggestions. To let you know I have already been told to use 2 50W bulbs but that is obviously not going to work considering the wattage I am using with the above results. Note this is pretty consistent for the the last 2 days. I am using a professional thermal sensor gun for cooking so my temps are pretty accurate.

Also I have a repti fogger to help with humidity and a sprinkler misting line I rigged up to the top of the cage.

So any how, I wanted to know about the probability of egg bounding (if that applies) and how to prevent it because I do not know the sex yet. I'll post full picks soon...maybe tomorrow if I get a chance. I'm avoiding holding him until he gets more used to the cage.

Also btw does anyone think it weird that he sleeps a lot during the day? He moves around too but I catch him with his eyes closed. Could this be due to lack of comfort where they pretend "they can't see u so u can't see them". I heard of this before. He usually packs it in for the night around 6pm where he is up at 7-730am.

[Gregg M]

I have 0 experience with melinus. I do know they are not easy to breed in captivity. The only advice I can offer you is to give your female plenty of laying options. Like all varanids, I would offer a nest box or two at the same time offering them deep substrate as well. You want your nesting temps to be in the mid 80's. You can achieve this by heating the bottom of your cage with a radient heat pannel or pig blanket heater.

[BarelyBreathing]

You will need to re-work your set up a bit before you consider breeding. First off, instead of a bunch of high wattage bulbs, get a few 45-60 watt flood lights. That allows for a still high basking area without drying out the air. We're not freaking out about temperature. We freak out because high wattages dry out the air.

Second, you mentioned screen. This is inappropriate for monitors because it lets out humidity. You need stable humidity. Using a fogger only results in a fluccuation in humidity, and the exchange between wet and dry air is almost as bad as a humidity that is constantly too low. You will need a fully sealed (no screen, no vent) enclosure very soon.

He sleeps a lot during the day because he is unhealthy. This is due to the fact that your enclosure isn't set up properly.

[infernalis]

Crocdoc hasnt been on in awhile, but Im sure he can also help. Gregg, do you have any input?

Crocdoc is on vacation at the moment, He will be back with stories to tell.

Mike is a member here, I will see if I can get him to post on this thread.

I think John Light (JPL reptiles) could have some good input too.

[bushsnake]

Wow, youre breeding melinus?! Good job. How long have you had them? Who did you get them from? I think there is only one guy here in North America that breeds them, though Im not sure how many in Europe have. There is a guy called Mikes Monitors on a few forums who knows a breeder that has had pretty good success with melinus.

Crocdoc hasnt been on in awhile, but Im sure he can also help. Gregg, do you have any input?
hey ive met Mike...we seem to know the same people from the chicago area, his cousin was am short term partner of mine (partnerships hardly work lol)but if i got into monitors mike would be my go-to guy!!

[rullom]

now without custom how do you get a fully enclosed top? Maybe I can rig something that seals over the top... This will take some constructing....I don't know if I'm even that good lol. I can try the "few" lower wattages...I don't have 45/65 where i live so I will have to use 40 or 75....40s won't work. for sure so i'll try 75s.
Well now you got me worried. How else can I tell if he's not doing well....I usually gauge based on eating habits and obviously body tone. This seems fine. I thought he was just nervous due to new surroundings. I was not making up that eye closed thing. Apparently they will do that when they are nervous to cope. I just want to add that he was "doing fine" apparently at port credit with half the size tank and one bulb. Maybe the temp was more stable?
Please continue with advise. We are going off topic but this is fine with me. If you could add at what age I have to be conscious about the egg deposition.

[mo9e64]

You might have picked an animal in poor health,your animal should be vigorous when handled and normally hiding.
Cover the top with plastic and rig it so you have a bare low wattage bulb within the cage,the size of cage you mentioned on another forum(100 gallon) you should use two 40w floodlights mounted as close to the substrate 6" roughly so you get a basking spot at least 130F-coolend low eighties.Substrate at least 8"-coconut husk mixed with sand covered in leaf litter.Tight hiding spaces.
If he is out in the open,sleeping with one eye shut alot that is not normal-this group of monitors by nature are very shy.Though i heard Melinus are a bit more outgoing,for your monitor to recover if it's compromised you need to give it as stress free environment as possible.
If you have a female there are issues egglaying-you need like others say experienced advice.I know it's just a question about egglaying but getting setup properly should be your main objective.From my experience so far,if you start with healthy babies that's the easy part.Keep them hydrated with a proper heat gradient ,security,lots of food, they grow like weeds.

[rullom]

Ok here are some pics...I may exaggerate the "health" issues we speak of. He may be basking and then shut his eyes which I think is normal. He does go sleep in the top left corner or insider one of the logs on occasion. When he wants his food he runs around the cage. But we can discuss that further. So in this I rigged the top cover last night in a panic lol until 230am after reading some of these posts. The humidity levels are now staying 80% and that was within 2hrs or less since the lights went on this morning. For bulbs I have reduced them to see how the temp is going. Currently temp in basking ranges 125ish to low 90s or high 80s (using one 50 and one 75w).....falling to low 70s at the bottom. Right now I going to buy a heating mat for under the cage to fix the low 70s problem and a 50w bulb (i made a mistake in my last post...they sell 50w or 75w). I will try 2 50s to see how that does for the basking spots replacing the current 75w.

[rullom]

heres some other picks

[BarelyBreathing]

Oh! It's the same kind of enclosure I use for my cresties, and used to use for darts! Quick fix: Cut a piece of glass for the top of the screen, and make a hole to fit the lights. Simple, simple, simple. For some reason I thought you were talking about an all screen enclosure. Whew!

One more suggestion, can you add more clutter to it? Perhaps leaf litter on the bottom?

[rullom]

Oh, well the top "box" I made is pretty good I think. I don't think I need to adjust that right now. It is keeping in the humidity quite well (and heat). Now silly question: Where do you get leaf litter and what is the purpose? Do you think maybe he is fine health wise or do you still think he has health issues? I called the store today and they said i'm lucky he is eating already. Now with regards to hiding spots if you look at the top left and top right the "perching log" forms a tunnel each time so he can opt to hide in there.
Also my rotten luck I had bought some heat pad to go underneath, stuck it there and it didn't work....something was wrong with it so I had to return it. I will have to deal with these lower temps at the bottom I guess for now. They are about 72-74ish. Throughout tank is 70-80+% relative humidity. I have not changed the bulb 75w to a 50w yet since the humidity is holding quite steady. Do you still think I should change it? The temps are quite good mid to high cage.
Thanks so far!!

[BarelyBreathing]

That sound pretty good, too.

That's not a silly question at all. Leaf litter is just fallen leaves and other plant matter that you can find on the ground outside. Be sure to collect it from a chemical free place, such as a forest preserve. It helps keep the humidity up in the enclosure, as well as providing hiding places and enrichment.

Health wise, I'd worry if he's inactive. Hiding is normal, but long periods of sleeping or inactivity is a sign that something may be wrong. Usually it's a sumple fix with the environment. What is the basking spot surface temperature, and what are you measuring it with? (Sorry if you've answered already.)

[rullom]

Yes I just filled the bottom with pothos....actually while i was doing it I didn't want to disturb him but he came to the edge of the log and i put my hand out and he crawled on it....kind of funny. He must have been well socialized before. BTW how cool would you let it get over night ? I put a night bulb on but maybe I don't need to....

[BarelyBreathing]

I let my enclosures drop to 75 at night for my monitors (what my cool ends are for the most part). Have you been tong feeding him?

[infernalis]

Here is why I like my insulated design so much.

Our power failed last night, and the cage never fell below 80 degrees.

[rullom]

Infernalis to answer your questions I have not been tong feeding him yet...should I start?
Basking surface temps range on the top left low to higher 120s and in the middle around high 80s low 90s and on the right 100s and 90ish. Mid tank is around 80s and it is the low part I can't fix right now. Some areas 74 others 70-72. I want it to be higher 70s and I told you already about the stupid heat mat that was broken? Took me 1hr to take it off. Its hard scraping a sticker off of glass when you have 1.5 inches to work with lol!!!
With regards to measuring the surface basking I use a professional cooking IR laser. It is very accurate.

[rullom]

Oh what is acceptable low humidity levels? Are your humidity levels the same everywhere in the tank?

[infernalis]

I water my dirt with a watering can once a week to keep it damp, the overall humidity varies, Down inside the tunnels humidity is close to 100%, up on the platform, its almost zero % and at ground level I have about 88%, up at mid point it averages about 77%

Temperatures vary about as much.

Down in the dirt is like 78 degrees, ground level 88, mid is in the 90's and basking close to 150 degrees.

[millertime89]

I quicker and cheaper fix than cutting a piece of glass is to just cover the screen with some aluminum foil and tape the edges down and cut a hole for the lights. Whether you're currently maintaining good humidity I still feel you should do it. 10 minutes (maybe) wort of work and you help keep that humidity high.

[BarelyBreathing]

That works, too. I just prefer a cleaner look.

[jarich]

I could be wrong but it looks like he built a box to enclose the entire top and the lights together. Which keeps the air from rising out of the bulbs themselves too, or rather contains that hot humid air within the enclosure. Am I right in saying that white box on the top contains the lights within it, Rullom?

If you have that as the fix Rullom, what about just putting the lights all the way up to the top of that box and giving yourself that extra height for the monitor? That way you could increase the substrate depth at the bottom, which would help you regulate humidity levels easier. The deeper the substrate, the easier it is to keep your humidity levels constant. Just a thought. The enclosure looks pretty good though.

[rullom]

Yes you are correct.....I just changed it to see if this "lid idea" works better. i used wood and cut out holes.....if not I will try the foil or go back to my box. To your substrate idea I can't raise the hight because that box is not "bug" proof. There are holes along the edges but my humidity over night will actually increase without dropping. I don't think I have a humidity holding problem. It is pretty consistently 80-90 (depending on rainfall) in the lower quart of the tank. I thought of using Styrofoam on the glass walls actually. The only problem is I lose viewing areas.

[varanus_mad]

Yes you are correct.....I just changed it to see if this "lid idea" works better. i used wood and cut out holes.....if not I will try the foil or go back to my box. To your substrate idea I can't raise the hight because that box is not "bug" proof. There are holes along the edges but my humidity over night will actually increase without dropping. I don't think I have a humidity holding problem. It is pretty consistently 80-90 (depending on rainfall) in the lower quart of the tank. I thought of using Styrofoam on the glass walls actually. The only problem is I lose viewing areas.

Thats not a problem it increases your monitors security thereby decreasing stress.

[mo9e64]

Holding humidity isn't the problem it's preventing dehydration.If you have A 75W light and too much ventilation on top that draws moisture away from the monitor.Considering all the heats up top and it's too cold on the bottom you are basically baking your monitor as it will hang out at the top.Having a cage that is taller than long,just makes getting conditions right harder as well.Humidity will naturally rise as temps get cooler,and the rate of evaporation off your monitor will slow.Deep substrate is only useable if it isn't too cold.

Remember Melinus is a forest monitor,it won't take error in husbandry that a Sav will and
nowhere near able to handle stress that a Sav can.I keep a similar species raised from hatchlings,they are easy to raise if you realize they take alot more patience,keep it simple at first developing trust should be gained once you start getting conditions right.

[rullom]

So hold up....i'm confused. Let me just first say to correct the wattage I have 2 50s on. The 75 was also replaced once I made the 'box'
What is the problem with the enclosure? Im not misting to keep the humidity up...it is staying on its own. I don't get why he gets baked on the top. The ambients are between 80 and 90 up top and the bas kings hit 120s etc. Mid cage is 80s. I was understanding my enclosure was fine once I trapped the air inside. Can you please critique this.
Thanks.

[mo9e64]

I can't find where you said you changed to 50w bulbs,if so that's a bit better.And sorry if i am wrong but maybe i had the wrong impression that your new top still has quite a bit of ventilation.
Substrate is very important if it's deep and too cold,it's not useable,low eighties is useable.When i said your cage is harder to control,there are things you can do to make it better.Like Jarich said get a deeper substrate ,lower the bulbs to heat the substrate-you will still have useable space up top-like many have mentioned heat rises.
I know people think i'm rude,but really i'm trying to help,i've raised these types of monitors.Trust me the babies are the easy part.

[rullom]

No i didn't think you were rude...I was generally confused because its hard to tell if posts arnwer other posts or the one preceding it. Thanks a lot.

[mo9e64]

http://s1057photobucket

[infernalis]

I tried to fix your picture, but there is not enough information inside the [img] brackets to even get at the picture. Sorry,......

[mo9e64]

no problem-thought i'd try

[rullom]

Can anyone confirm the following...i don't know if every monitor species is the same but I was doing some more reading on sexual maturation and it seems like the articles that I read all mentioned maturation around 3-4 years of age. I of course only care about Melinus but can't find anything specific for that species. My 'motive' is to avoid egg bound females. Can anyone verify or agree/disagree with this 3+year idea. I always thought it was 1.5years but I am wrong I think and I don't want to run into avoidable problems.
Thanks in advance

[bodiddleyitis]

There isn't anything specific to Varanus melinus because virtually nothing is known about its ecology and captive breeding has been very limited. How quickly monitors grow/mature depends entirely on the conditions they experience. It's usually more useful to know the approximate snout-vent length they mature at, rather than their age. For animals in captivity 3+ years is very slow for almost all species. Your best option would be to buy a group of babies too young to sex and raise them together. But you also might want to consider that melinus is a small island endemic species and there are grave concerns about the effect of pet trade harvesting on their conservation status.

[mo9e64]

Greg mentioned in another post it's important to give them many nesting options,fatalities occur due to improper nesting choices and improper husbandry.

[Gregg M]

Can anyone confirm the following...i don't know if every monitor species is the same but I was doing some more reading on sexual maturation and it seems like the articles that I read all mentioned maturation around 3-4 years of age. I of course only care about Melinus but can't find anything specific for that species. My 'motive' is to avoid egg bound females. Can anyone verify or agree/disagree with this 3+year idea. I always thought it was 1.5years but I am wrong I think and I don't want to run into avoidable problems.
Thanks in advance

It all depends on the species to be honest. I would say that 3 to 4 years would be extreme for most species. Even the larger common species like V. salvator and V. albigularis are ready to breed in 2 years or less. We have have V. pilbara females lay fertile eggs at 9 months old.

The least of my worries would be egg binding. Egg binding has very little to do with age. With reptiles, egg size at laying depends on the actual size of the female. Generally a smaller female will lay smaller eggs, larger females will lay larger eggs.

What does cause female varanids to become eggbound is improper nesting options, sub par husbandry, and poor health.

[mo9e64]

Alot of these threads are about things that you should worry about later,why not start at the beginning and work to the end.The beginning is having a cage setup properly,second is picking a apparently healthy monitor,third is supporting it properly-the rest like breeding and longevity are the result of doing the first steps.As simple as that seems,to me anyway-it's the least practiced.Taming and breeding can be a natural progression.If you do things right ,realize these monitors live quite long,you have time.

[rullom]

ok thanks. If anyone comes across sexual maturity or age of first egg deposition for 'melinus' please let me know. I'll keep looking in the internet.

[mo9e64]

That's because there is no answer,it's based on how they are raised.And since you picked the worst type of monitor,where 99.9% die,you won't find stats of a quantative amount to tell you that info.If you raise them properly they breed alot quicker than you'd think,i'd guess a little over a year.That's just based on similar type monitor on my interpretation of what i've read.For example many of the breedings,egglaying have occured from wild caught individuals,unknown age-i am not sure of any breeding from individual raised since hatchlings.And if so it would be based on the conditions they have and could change under a different keepers conditions.

[rullom]

lol why do you say 99.9% die? That is quite discouraging! Do you mean offspring? I don't mean to be argumentative but if you are referring to "melinus pets" where are you getting this information? And I am NOT being argumentative I just want some facts because if 99.9% die I am not keeping it.

[rullom]

Sorry I also meant to thank you for your insight on the egg bounding and maturity. Thank you
Mike

[mo9e64]

I know i can't prove it's 99.9% LOL ,that's more for effect that the mortality rate is very very high.
You seem to have a fairly healthy baby,it is not hard to get it out of that state-but you have to be serious about getting setup properly.This site doesn't really have many members with this type of monitor search for one that does.I'm just a beginner myself who has been lucky to get my monitors through the juvie stage.
Whether you keep your Melinus is up to you,it's just normally these types of monitors are discouraging to keep because of 'empty cage syndrome'.But monitors are individuals plus if you get conditions right Melinus has been described as more outgoing-it's a crapshoot.That's why many encourage starting with Ackies,smaller size outgoing personality,little more margin for error in care.I knew the risks when i got my Bluetails,and sometimes i get discouraged,they are definitely not for everyone.

[rullom]

ok thanks...so far i think it is going ok. he started hiding a lot after the first day probably he realized he was somewhere else and I added some nice places to hide that he found. On the good side the crickets seem to disappear (approx 12 per day). I see him eat once in a while. Actually he ate a dead cricket that had drowned which was kind of funny. I took it out and left it beside the food bowl and it was gone today but there last night from the morning so it was definitely him.
Can you tell me what people usually see if they are going to die? Like will he regress from this point randomly or do I have to mess something up?
Last thing for now: Would you get a second one since he had a second with him at the store?
Mike

[infernalis]

Can you tell me what people usually see if they are going to die? Like will he regress from this point randomly or do I have to mess something up?

Unfortunatly, Monitors are such rugged animals that they can be really sick for years without anyone noticing.

When my last monitor died, he looked fine right up until his last 2 days on earth. In his final hours his eyes sunk into his head, his toes swelled up really puffy, and he started pooping bloody stool.


Last thing for now: Would you get a second one since he had a second with him at the store?
Mike

Weather or not it's beneficial is debatable, but most monitors seem to do fine in pairs or small groups.

The first time I did this, I had one and he seemed fine, this time around I chose to get two, and I am so glad I did, they seem to keep each other occupied.

[mo9e64]

If you have more than one there is always a chance they won't be compatible later on,meaning either getting rid of one or having another cage.But if you're going to have more than one it's best to have them raised together from babies.
My two baby Bluetails ate about 40 crickets combined a day,so if yours is consuming 12 that's not to bad.One of the reasons to use smaller cages is so you can monitor their intake,less hiding places for insects.Crickets actually bred in their raise up cage.

If you can get a deep substrate no cooler than the low eighties,with plenty of tight hiding spots,reduce ventilation and have that basking spot at least 130F you give your monitor a better chance.Worrying actually makes people complicate things-stick to the simple basics-if he hides that's normal just make sure you can monitor how much he's eating.I use to put dusted crickets in a bowl,pinch off their hind legs, to make it harder for them to escape.They prefered feeding in privacy,i would catch peaks of them eating.

[rullom]

Ya the cage is not big....24x18x36 high. I usually can tell the crix are gone by the next day. ya the bowl is a good idea too. Never thought of that
Substrate is now finally in 80s with heat wire. Humidity is perfect throughout and temps are near perfect....in the sense that the basking spot is not higher than 130.....I know you guys have mentioned that but every where I read it says 125. When I used the high 130s he avoided it. So now I have one zone 120s and the other high 80s and every where in between (top of cage)....then decreasing to 80 at soil and some spots of mid 70s.
Im actually quite happy with it. As long as the crickets are not escaping lol or digging and hiding for 2 days I think it is going ok for now.

[mo9e64]

Your basking temps are fine,as babies anything over 110F is good,i was told.Bluetails are prone to burning so as babies nothing usually hotter than 110-120F worked fine,as adults they bask up to 160F.