Cassie eating a fuzzy.

[Bradyloach]

So I fed cassie a fuzzy mouse today.

She seemed lethargic for the last few days so i decided to try a fuzzy.
She is more active already and its only been an hour. I finally agreed to feed her a mouse a week because lets be real here the diet i can provide her only are crickets night crawlers and the occasional dubia.

I definitely will be feeding her a fuzzy mouse every week she needs the nutrition
lt_-87pmULY&feature=plcp&context=C49d8024VDvjVQa1PpcFO4urYfd6zUlJ45hvUY5Ysv 6g8Z2y_KxHY%3D

[alessia55]

The video isn't showing.

[Bradyloach]

its working now. :D

[alessia55]

its working now. :D

Yup, it is. :)

[Bradyloach]

Well here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt_-87pmULY&feature=plcp&context=C49d8024VDvjVQa1PpcFO4urYfd6zUlJ45hvUY5Ysv 6g8Z2y_KxHY%3D

[BarelyBreathing]

This makes me sad. :(

[Lankyrob]

This makes me sad. :(


Me too and i am going to be the one that says what i think others are not prepared to.

Brady - you are a lovely bloke and you obviously love Cassie but if you are not able to provide her with the full diet that she requires then maybe you should consider rehoming her with someone that can.

You know that her current diet isnt right so either put it right or pass her on, you have to do what is best for her. Sorry if this offends.

[Bradyloach]

Hmmm its not that i cant provide a proper diet for her its because i cant find shrimp and snails like everyone else in my town. The energy cassie has from 1 fuzzy is better then what she got off crickets and worms. Trust me the care that i give to her is better than her being in a fish tank somewere else. An occational mouse does NOT hurt a sav. Daniel bennet says so and i just THINK he knows a little more than you.

[BarelyBreathing]

I'm not going to start a Daniel Bennett arguement here, but think about this: He says they don't eat them in the wild, yet suggests feeding them. He also says they don't live in the desert in the wild. Should we keep them in desert fish tanks?

You need to fix the diet. Occasional dubia roaches aren't enough. This needs to be the staple. You don't have any aquarium stores in your area? No protected forests?

[Bradyloach]

No. Ive looked for hours. I cannot find organic shrimp... i cant ffind snails for a price i can afford. i cant find more dubia as they are illegal. Im waiting for my dubia to grow. The occational rodent is not going to hurt cass. She is more energetic, and isnt so sluggish after one already, But to everyone who says i should rehome her ? like come on. Grow up

[alessia55]

But to everyone who says i should rehome her ? like come on. Grow up

Brady, you know how we are here. We care about the animal's wellbeing and health first. Not to say that you can't be a good sav keeper... Just that Cass needs more variety in her diet than you're able to give her right now. You put Cass first- and so do we! She needs more food variety and stimulation. I know you've got this new enclosure coming in and that's absolutely great. I think you should do what's necessary to get Cass the foods she needs to nourish her and give her the energy she needs on a daily basis. We want you to succeed. But if you can't provide her with the varied diet she needs, you need to think about how you can do that or who can do it for you. It's tough, but Cass is important- to all of us. We just want to make sure she gets exactly what she needs.

[BarelyBreathing]

A lot of people on this forum have given you suggestions as to how to help her, Brady. I know I feel like a broken record some times, as you haven't followed through. If you feel it's boredom, find some enrichment activities for her. If you think it's diet, go spend some time finding a proper diet. You can find snails for free if you look hard enough. You can buy them cheap at pet stores, garden stores, online. You can buy shrimp at grocery stores. You can order them online. Spooky showed me a website the other day that catered to monitor needs in Canada. I don't remember what it was, but perhaps she can point you in the right direction?

[Bradyloach]

If You can direct me to that website i would get all of the stuff she needs. But an occasional fuzzy isnt going to hurt her! 1 a week? thats not bad. Ill look again for shrimp and snails but i need to wait for my dubia to grow.

[BarelyBreathing]

One a week isn't "occasional".

While you're waiting for your roach colony to grow, there are other great prey items to offer to broaden her dietary spectrum.

[infernalis]

Not happening folks...

So I guess DAMN NEAR EVERY SINGLE Monitor specialist, field biologist, zoologist, breeder and author must be wrong????

Savannah Monitors (http://www.savannahmonitor.co/mice/) The mouse page..

The video I am uploading right now is Littlefoot eating his first mice.

Brady, you did fine man..

[alessia55]

While you're waiting for your roach colony to grow, there are other great prey items to offer to broaden her dietary spectrum.

From Savannah Monitors (http://www.savannahmonitor.co/) :
A proper Savannah Monitor diet would consist of Roaches, Crickets, Night Crawlers (Large earth worms) whole snails, garden slugs, superworms and Locusts (where available) with occasional rodents and certified chemical free organic whole shrimp & crayfish as treats.

:)

[infernalis]

From Ravi Thakoordyal, Co author of the book, established Savannah Monitor breeder...

Hi Wayne,

As far as what I fed them......pretty simple. Mice and bugs. When they were young they received a lot of crickets, super worms, locusts, pinkies/fuzzies. Once they started to hit sub-adult sizes the ratio of bugs to rodents was reversed and they ate primarily mice. In captivity it is very difficult for most keepers to keep a savannah sufficiently fed on a diet of bugs...they just eat too much. I have no issues with a rodent based diet as long as the keeper is able to support the animals regulatory needs......meaning enough heat to properly digest those meals.
This is always a touchy subject with keepers and my views may not line up with yours or others but they're based on personal experience and results so take it with a grain of salt.
I'm a huge believer in the notion that there are many ways to accomplish the same goal and keeping monitors is no different.
Thanks,
--RT--

[Akuma223]

I'm obviously no expert in any way when it comes to reptile care but how would a mouse a week hurt a Savannah? If anything it should be good for them. Just because they don't normally eat mice in the wild doesn't mean we shouldn't feed them some. I think balancing the diet out between some mice and mostly bugs would be healthy, I'm sure in the wild they would eat mice if they could. Has anyone here had any problems feeding their sav's mice? If there aren't any obvious problems it should be fine. I think balancing things between natural and improved is a good way to do things.

[Lankyrob]

Well i will hold my hands up and say i am wrong, Brady i wholeheartedly apologise for my misguided criticism.

[Bradyloach]

Great point!

If a savannah monitor comes across a mouse do you think it would just say no im full of insects. Obvs it would turn around and eat it.

[Bradyloach]

Well i will hold my hands up and say i am wrong, Brady i wholeheartedly apologise for my misguided criticism.

Thanks rob! i appreciate it

[youngster]

I'm not going to start a Daniel Bennett arguement here, but think about this: He says they don't eat them in the wild, yet suggests feeding them

With all due respect this example isn't really very fair. Just because it's not in their diet in the wild doesn't mean it's necessarily bad for them does it?

Example: Hoggies eat toads almost exclusively (I think) but in captivity they are fed almost exclusively on rodents. And you can't tell me a mouse is bad for a hoggie :)

Another example: Feral cats eat wicked gross stuff in the wild to survive because they have to, but that doesn't mean you should feed your cat garbage.

Again, BB not questioning your husbandry or anything, just sayin'.

[exwizard]

Not happening folks...

So I guess DAMN NEAR EVERY SINGLE Monitor specialist, field biologist, zoologist, breeder and author must be wrong????

Savannah Monitors (http://www.savannahmonitor.co/mice/) The mouse page..

The video I am uploading right now is Littlefoot eating his first mice.

Brady, you did fine man..

Wayne, youre great.

Brady you keep it up. Cassie is and will continue to thrive in your caring hands. While I know nothing about Savs I do recognize when people love their animals and are doing what they can to take care of them. :)

[infernalis]

My entire Savannah Monitor web site is built on a foundation laid by the greatest Monitor experts alive.

David Kirshner, Daniel Bennett, Michael Balsai, Dr. Sam Sweet, and now Dr. Gordon M. Burghardt.

Top professionals, Robyn Markland, Ravi Thakoordyal, Christian Castiell.

[exwizard]

I also applaud you for backing up Brady when he obviously is doing what he can to take care of his Sav. Kudos to you. :)

[infernalis]

I also applaud you for backing up Brady when he obviously is doing what he can to take care of his Sav. Kudos to you. :)

Thank you.

[Bradyloach]

I am going to pick up shrimp tomorrow. I found some that are cooked on the east coast and then frozen and sent here. no added salt. I will have a look tomorrow. Also im going to see if i cant find snails! I will only feed a rodent a week. thats it.... The diet will mostly be inverts

[exwizard]

I am going to pick up shrimp tomorrow. I found some that are cooked on the east coast and then frozen and sent here. no added salt. I will have a look tomorrow. Also im going to see if i cant find snails! I will only feed a rodent a week. thats it.... The diet will mostly be inverts

Cassie couldnt possibly be in better hands. :)

[youngster]

Brady I thought you were breeding snails? What ever happened to that?

[Bradyloach]

Brady I thought you were breeding snails? What ever happened to that?

Well it wasent going good. It just didnt work... im thinking about breeding pond snails... apple snails dont work hah

[infernalis]

I am going to pick up shrimp tomorrow. I found some that are cooked on the east coast and then frozen and sent here. no added salt. I will have a look tomorrow. Also im going to see if i cant find snails! I will only feed a rodent a week. thats it.... The diet will mostly be inverts

No cooked, raw!!!

[SpOoKy]

VARANID.CA | Specialty Reptile Diet Products | Toronto, Ontario (http://www.varanid.ca/)

[BarelyBreathing]

I'm not going to reply to any more monitor threads. I've just been informed that "natural" is not good for the animal, so clearly I've been doing it wrong with my fourteen guys.

[Bradyloach]

VARANID.CA | Specialty Reptile Diet Products | Toronto, Ontario (http://www.varanid.ca/)

um i can feed the fish and the frogs to cassie? :D:D

[Mikey T]

it seems that the "frogs" are only frogs legs, the fish yes whole prey remember.
My blackthroat looooves smelt

[Gungirl]

I'm not going to reply to any more monitor threads. I've just been informed that "natural" is not good for the animal, so clearly I've been doing it wrong with my fourteen guys.

Don't be like that.. post up pics of your set ups and your guys tell people more. Not everyone has to do things the SAME way. Maybe if people have set ups like yours they will have an easier time keeping the same species.I for one would love to see pics of full set ups and your guys in them.

[SpOoKy]

um i can feed the fish and the frogs to cassie?

Yes, in moderation.

it seems that the "frogs" are only frogs legs, the fish yes whole prey remember.

This is true about whole prey but I have been informed that when feeding frogs, just the legs are better because it reduces the risk of parasites.

[Bradyloach]

Thats true. but i live 6 hours away from toronto.

I might be able to get smelts tho

[exwizard]

Not everyone has to do things the SAME way.

This exactly.

[Mikey T]

no one said natural is not good for the animal, i do believe it was "balanced between natural and improved (maybe not the best choice of word)" because they don't eat them OFTEN in the wild, doesn't mean they wouldn't given the opportunity.

[infernalis]

Back to the quote I posted from Ravi.....

I'm a huge believer in the notion that there are many ways to accomplish the same goal and keeping monitors is no different.Thanks,
--RT--

[infernalis]

No one ever said your way is wrong, but if you are going to insist that 99% of the world is wrong, please be prepared for rebuttals.

[BarelyBreathing]

No, but I don't have a PhD, remember? Clearly I have no right or reason to speak my mind, because doing so is "imprudent".

[mo9e64]

Barelybreathing,I'll say it,you're wrong-you just can't separate reality and your ideals.Your 'natural' ideal is just your opinion,it doesn't match reality.Your criticism of Daniel Bennet is ridiculous because he did a study on Sav's in the wild,and he surveyed those kept in captivity and found that the majoririty of keepers need rodents in their diet for anykind of longterm sucess-two separate things.1-wild monitors 2-monitors in captivity.

[infernalis]

No, but I don't have a PhD, remember? Clearly I have no right or reason to speak my mind, because doing so is "imprudent".

Wow, that is so far out of context... I don't know how to respond without being condescending.

[Bradyloach]

Hedys monitors are all healthy tho... She is a very good keeper. she offers her monitors a varitey which i cant do as good as her right now, so im feeding mice to give cass energy

[mo9e64]

when are you going to address your other issue,your monitor is eating-focusing on diet and boredom might be taking your focus away from other possible problems.Sitting for long periods under a basking spot of the temp you described i would think is more serious than variety in his diet.Is it possible that your ambient temp is too low-

[Bradyloach]

Nope.its boredom. the issue is fixed when i get the enclosure tomorrow

[infernalis]

No, but I don't have a PhD, remember? Clearly I have no right or reason to speak my mind, because doing so is "imprudent".

You have every right to speak your mind, as long as you understand, so does everyone else. ;)

Imprudence is from expecting no counter argument replies.

Michael Balsai: This has never been a problem for me or many of my colleagues either. All of us encourage varied diets, but I see no problem at present with rodent biased diets when used responsibly.



What I tried to say to you in the most polite way I could is this.

Virtually all of the experts who have cited that a diet that includes rodents will not lead to health issues or death have degrees.

This should indicate that they know what they are talking about.

I certainly do not think that PBS, Animal Planet, BBC and others would chose to build documentaries around their work otherwise.

So when a lone voice in the crowd shouts out "you guys don't know what you are talking about" of course that one lone voice must expect all heads to turn in that person's direction and ask "Please cite your proof that these experts are wrong"

And then even the experts themselves are kind enough to extend the courtesy of offering the benefit of doubt and also ask to please present your proof.

Then that lone voice says "my computer is broken" & "I have it somewhere but I cannot produce it"

Then at that point the one lone voice must certainly expect the criticism that is undoubtedly going to follow.

http://www.varanus.us/Special/doctors.jpg

One thing I learned many years ago about forums, even I do not speak in absolutes without backup.

The best path to follow is "I feel that" or "It is of my opinion"

If one is going to say that water is made from hydrogen and nitrogen, then that person will be asked to provide how this conclusion came to be, and will be asked to repeat the lab results before the book of elements will be rewritten.

[Trent]

Excellent post Wayne!

[Gregg M]

I can not believe that posting a vid of a sav eating a mouse would cause such a rucus. I hav to say it is quite silly to not use rodents as a part of a varanids diet. They eat them, they thrive on them. Always have and always will. I think anyone who offers an invert only diet is NOT doing righ by their animals.
Brady,

Do not be affraid to offer mice a few times a week. Your sav will do fine. Just make sure your temps and humidity are up to par. Do not get put off because a select few can not get it in their heads that mice are nothing like fast food for reptiles.
If I were you, I would post another vid tomorrow of your sav eating 2 more. LOL

BarelyBreathing, some of the varanids you keep mainly eat lizards in the wild. Some of the dwarfs make their entire living on it. How many of your varanids are getting a staple diet of lizards?

[Bradyloach]

Cassie ate another 3 today.

[BarelyBreathing]

And this is exactly why this shouldn't be promoted. It's gone from once every week or two to every day in less than 24 hours.

And yes, Gregg, I'm lucky enough to have captive bred anoles and geckos at my disposal during hatching season, as well as an assortment of anoles and geckos that have been treated for parasites in the off season.

[Skits]

First, I love how Cassie suddenly ran for the mouse :p She's really cute.

And second, when I had first got Spencer and had given him a rat (or mouse, I can't remember), I was told by pretty much everyone on this forum that it was wrong for savs. And now everyones changed their minds? Just wondering if I should be feeding him rats now? I'd still like to have him on something natural, but as Brady said, living in Canada makes it hard to find what savs need in their diet. I'll be going to a bait store next weekend and hopefully can find shrimps and snails there, and pick up some worms. I'm just confused now.

[millertime89]

And this is exactly why this shouldn't be promoted. It's gone from once every week or two to every day in less than 24 hours.

I think this is the crutch of it. While its ok to feed them one every once in a while, feeding them regularly and frequently can result in weight problems. Think about it. I nice big steak every so often is fine. But start consuming them 2-3 times a day as a meal and you'll probably start putting on weight unless you're a fitness nut.

[infernalis]

First, I love how Cassie suddenly ran for the mouse :p She's really cute.

And second, when I had first got Spencer and had given him a rat (or mouse, I can't remember), I was told by pretty much everyone on this forum that it was wrong for savs. And now everyones changed their minds?


http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/90598-may-time-rethink-little-savs.html

http://www.varanus.us/nutrition/bennett.gif



"sure savs eat rodents in the wild, i agree savs are oportuntic feeders"

Savannah monitors aren't opportunistic feeders in the wild. They are after very specific types of prey and none of them are rodents. I think that's because they couldn't compete with all the other animals that are feeding on rodents; if they come across small enough rodents of course they will eat them but the search patterns they use turn up a rather narrow range of invertebrates, snails, and frogs with the odd reptile egg and that's what is in their guts almost all of the time. Of course the range of the species is very wide and our sample sizes are very small, but so far its feeding ecology looks rather specialised compared to opportunistic monitor species.

I think that you can recognise, or define, opportunistic monitors in the wild, by seeing if they are attracted to rotten carrion. If you try to bait monitor lizards with carrion in Africa you will get niloticus but you will not get exanthematicus. If you did it in Malaysia you would get biawaks and bengalensis but you would not get rudicollis and you probably wouldn't get dumerilii either. If you did in the Philippines you would only get biawaks. It's a useful definition because it's a very easy test. I'd guess that if you did it in Indonesia you wouldn't get prasinus type animals and you have some surprise non shows amongst the others.

What do we know about the natural diets of these monitors that can't be attracted with bait? Of course their range is wide and our sample sizes are very small but they seem to have very tight dietary niches compared to their opportunistic counterparts. There's a conspicuous lack of what I would call snake food.

Incidentally; these non carrion eating monitor lizards tend to perform poorly in captivity, especially the ones that live in wet forests. In contrast the carrion eaters are generally considered quite easy to breed.

How such idle speculation can be applied to the feeding of monitor lizards in boxes is uncertain, because all monitor lizards that can be bred in boxes will apparently thrive for indefinite generations on a diet of rodents and invertebrates. There's (almost?) no documented evidence of generations of captive monitors raised without rodents, but for many years now people have been banging on about how vital it is to omit rodents from the diets of savannah monitor lizards in particular. Why could that be?

David H. Good 1998, REPTILE magazine. Misunderstanding the Savannah Monitor: An Argument for Changed Husbandry.

This junk article was based on a talk the author had heard, but apparently entirely failed to comprehend, about wild savannah monitors. The talk was at the only monitor lizard conference that has ever been held in the USA, in San Diego. David Good spectacularly got every single detail in his article wrong, and the only thing he remembered correctly was that no rodents had been found in the diet of savannah monitors. He used this to suggest a rethink of savannah monitor husbandry that should have landed him in prison. Ever since it's been regularly rehashed by generations of monitor keepers who have spectacularly failed to breed their lizards. "They need a natural diet in captivity", what utter nonsense.

What David Good should have done was listen to another talk on the same day by a man nobody in the monitor lizard world had ever heard of. I can honestly say that nobody I knew in that room believed a word of it at the time, but it sparked a complete revolution in the way monitor lizards were kept. More importantly, it introduced a completely different philosophy to the husbandry of captives; that captive conditions should improve on natural conditions rather than replicate them. In nature monitor lizards are constrained by limited heat, water, food and shelters. By removing these constraints he claimed monitor lizards would grow at phenomenal rates and become fecund beyond all expectations. When members of the audience objected to basking temperatures so high they could easily kill the lizards, he claimed that the monitors sought such heat out of their own free will.

"so why would you not just try your best to give it as close to the natural living conditions as posible with out argument? sounds like kinda a crazy argument ?" Not really, because natural conditions are harsh and it's just possible that savannah monitors actually prefer rodents to milipedes.

[Lankyrob]

First, I love how Cassie suddenly ran for the mouse :p She's really cute.

And second, when I had first got Spencer and had given him a rat (or mouse, I can't remember), I was told by pretty much everyone on this forum that it was wrong for savs. And now everyones changed their minds? Just wondering if I should be feeding him rats now? I'd still like to have him on something natural, but as Brady said, living in Canada makes it hard to find what savs need in their diet. I'll be going to a bait store next weekend and hopefully can find shrimps and snails there, and pick up some worms. I'm just confused now.

This was the reason for myinitial response, everything i had "learnt" from this forum was that rodents were bad bad bad. I will be honest that whilst i tend to read every thread and every post i kinda phased out with the big thread that wayne posted cos it seemed to turn into a pissing contest between monitor owners and i couldnt be arsed to sort the wheat from the chaff as i dont own a sav (yet) and didntfeel the need to keep myself updated until the time ocmes when it is me deciding what to fed my own animals.

[Gregg M]

And this is exactly why this shouldn't be promoted. It's gone from once every week or two to every day in less than 24 hours.

So what? It is still not going to do any harm to his savannah. Especially being that it is still a growing monitor. Rodents are not bad. Many reptiles with much slower metabolic rates than varanids make their living on mice.

Its cool that you choose not to give your varanids rodent. But do not make people feel bad or feel like they are not doing the right thing by giving theirs rodents. It is NOT bad for their health and will not do any damage. All you need to do is pay attention to your lizard. IF it is getting chuncky, all you need to do is cut back on it rodent intake. However, if your varanid is properly heated and hydrated, it is highly unlikely that they will get fat from having rodents in their diet.

I had a savannah that lived to see past 16 years old. Its first 5 or 6 years (might have been longer) it ONLY ate rodents.

And yes, Gregg, I'm lucky enough to have captive bred anoles and geckos at my disposal during hatching season, as well as an assortment of anoles and geckos that have been treated for parasites in the off season.

That is great.
What are you doing to prevent cryptosporidium? Regular fecal exams do not detect crypto (you need costly acid fast stain testing done) and there is no drug to treat it with. Geckos and anoles are known to carry crypto without showing signs.

I will take my chances with rodents.

[infernalis]

Just my own observation here.

As we all know, My babies are being well documented, probably better than anyones ever have, I film them daily.

Yesterday Cera who has consumed 2 small pinkie mice less than a day prior was out hunting for food again, That lizard slammed 5 medium size Dubia before retreating back into hiding.

Those pinkie mice passed quickly, indicating that in order to keep up with the hyper digestion rates of a properly kept well heated Savannah, bugs alone are just not going to cut it.

Furthermore, as it has been indicated by professionals, These animals glean their body water from food, and I am quite certain that a mouse will contain more liquid content than a bug will.

[mo9e64]

It's funny the logic people use-don't feed rodents because they aren't part of a natural diet -but treat what they eat for parasites.
Correct me if i am wrong,but parasites usually are more of a problem with compromised monitors,usually weakened and kept in unsavoury conditions.But once healthy and under right conditions have an immune system,not an absolute,that allows feeding of any organism.So i was told that your choice of what you feed them should be based on your conditions.
Treating your monitor should be a last resort,remembering that many treatments are hard on it's kidneys etc-and by treating the prey your treating your monitor(OPINION)
What you feed your baby monitors as they are all quite small as long as whole prey items, shouldn't present a problem if you feed them enough.If you are stressed about their development dust their food with calcium.
Just remember when you are stressing about variety many keepers of monitors with longterm sucess have raised them on just crickets and mice(FACT)-and no mention of having to put them on antidepressants for boredom LOL

[KORBIN5895]

Okay all the controversy aside , I have a comment to Brady.

Dude you seriously need to make some decisions and stick to them. You also need to start taking the advice you are given and not just from people you idolize. Several people have given you advice on helping you sav get over his boredom and you ignore it. If you think putting her in a new enclosure is the answer be prepared to get a new enclosure every couple of months.

Secondly I couldn't care less what you feed your sav but don't come on here complaining about the lack of variety when you obviously haven't been trying to hard. If you want to feed rodents fine, just man up and say that. Instead you are making excuses about availability and cost of the alternative diet.
Please don't tell us that you can't get anymore dubia roaches when you were able to get a colony less than two months ago. You need to convert some of hour passion into action.

As for the whole lizards eating rodents thing, well I now have a dog in this fight. I really hope that this is true that lizards are capable of eating rodents. I have been turning quite a few bearded dragon, sav and plated lizard owners away and discouraging from feeding rodents.

[Valvaren]

I agree completely with what Korbin said, I had to make a lot of these type of decision with my dragon, I got her and realized I bit off more then I could chew but I did everything I could with everything I could and sacrificed a lot of what I needed to make sure she got what she needed. The food you want is there you just need to look for it and I know a lot of people on here have been helping you and you need to stop settling for what is the easiest. From everything I've been reading on here the past few months has changed how I've viewed monitors as something I would be able to care for later in life when I have the experience to something I'm not sure if I would want to commit to because I feel I would always worry i'm not doing things right.

Also Korbin, from what i've been reading rats/mice for savs in moderation isn't wrong as they obvious can and do digest them well, but I stick by them being something bearded dragons shouldn't be fed other then for breeding females (thats all i'm going to say)

[KORBIN5895]

@valvaren
I lumped them together on purpose;)

[infernalis]

Just remember when you are stressing about variety many keepers of monitors with longterm sucess have raised them on just crickets and mice(FACT)-and no mention of having to put them on antidepressants for boredom LOL

My question to you today Moe.;)

Exactly how could anyone expect a lizard that has an intelligence bordering primate levels to NOT become bored when locked inside a box of any dimensions?

Crocdoc (David Kirshner) has indicated that he has witnessed monitors roaming MILES, all of the major Varanus documentaries have proven that they explore miles, and the Lizard Kings documentary mentions that a single monitor lizard can claim some really massive amount of acreage as it's "territory"

So now we take this naturally inquisitive animal and confine it within four walls and then expect it to NOT grow bored???

Now let me ask you this, since you and I are actually primates, let's dumb it down to where we could only count to six..

I place you in a room 8 feet wide, four feet front to back and then only give you some dirt to dig in, a stick to play with and a bowl of water.

How long exactly would it take you to go nuts and just give up on looking for anything to do with your time???

I applaud Brady for even noticing, and applaud him even more for his desire to correct it.

Daniel himself told me he was very pleased with the fact that Chomper did not spend his life locked in his box all day every day.

[Bradyloach]

Well cage is ready next week now. I'm going to build my own I think that's stupid

[mo9e64]

Why is finding the easiest way to do something a bad thing?Valveran it's not about what you can feed them but feeding them the best choice for their conditions.Feeding monitors rodents under the wrong conditions even moderately might not be a good thing.

[bushsnake]

I'm not going to reply to any more monitor threads. I've just been informed that "natural" is not good for the animal, so clearly I've been doing it wrong with my fourteen guys.
i have the same approach with my animals...14 monitors...probably from either africa or asia and your in colorado...you cant put a fence up around their native habitat and call them your pets so how close are you to giving them a natural life?

[mo9e64]

Wayne, I think excercise is good for a monitor.I think variety is a preference of the keeper.I don't know if monitors get bored,i imagine they do-but Brady is making assumptions.To help him,as a beginner all i can do is open him to the possibility as another beginner that it might be something other than boredom.

[infernalis]

Why is finding the easiest way to do something a bad thing?.

Wow.

It's easier to not bother cleaning out the cage....

It's easier to wait for the water bowl to go dry before refilling it.

it's easier to just watch TV and not bother interacting with your animals.

I could fill a page, but I won't, because it's easier not to.

[mo9e64]

I guess i should have worded it differently,if you could do something easier with the same end result would you do it?

[KORBIN5895]

. Why is finding the easiest way to do something a bad thing?Valveran it's not about what you can feed them but feeding them the best choice for their conditions.Feeding monitors rodents under the wrong conditions even moderately might not be a good thing.

Because people get complacent way too easily.

Look at Brady. He busted his butt off to get Cassie the "best" of everything. The diet part has become difficult so he opts out for easy. One fuzzy a week. He gets some justification for this decision and goes from one fuzzy a week to three in two or three days. No big deal right?

Well what about the fact that his sav is currently doing nothing? Oh yeah! Now we have the potential for a serious problem.

It is always easy to take the easy route and get stuck there. I can be extremely difficult to get out of that rut.

[Bradyloach]

Actually since I fed Cass the fuzzys and put night crawlers into her cage she has been all over it :)

[mo9e64]

To me it doesn't matter if people do things the hard way,if you enjoy it who i am to criticize.
Feeding your monitor no matter what ,is a choice,if you want to feed it ten different things as opposed to one or two that give the same result,that's more what i am talking about.

[Lankyrob]

Well cage is ready next week now. I'm going to build my own I think that's stupid

Cancel the order and get your money back - they are playing you by the sounds of it.

[Skits]

This was the reason for myinitial response, everything i had "learnt" from this forum was that rodents were bad bad bad.

This is exactly why it had confused me. I always believed that they were wrong to feed to savs. I would of been feeding Spence a rat here and there if it wasn't for this forum. I could certainly add a mouse here and there in his diet though. He did really enjoy the one I had given him a while ago.

[infernalis]

I guess i should have worded it differently,if you could do something easier with the same end result would you do it?

yes and no.

when a half dozen scientists tell me to offer a varied diet, and one blowhard who don't keep Savs says mice is all they need, I don't need a PHD to make the obvious choice.

[mo9e64]

They tell you,do they and you accept that without them substantiating it-you know what opinion is,right.For them to be right,the opposite must be shown to be untrue.Backup it up-statements of scientists saying variety is important isn't proof,just like scientists who say there is not climate change-you need data.Data where both methods are used.

[infernalis]

Whatever Moe..

So Daniel does not keep Lizards.

All the rest do.

Franks data is mired in lies, I have caught him and proved it, others have caught him and proved it..

Remember when I proved he was a liar on kingsnake, his minions fell silent quickly.

Just exactly how many BBC, PBS or animal planet documentaries have "FR" in the closing credits??

I will take my chances with my current mentors thanks.

[mo9e64]

You make pretty good argument,all it's missing is the data part.This is an example of data Greg had a Sav live the first 5-6 years on just rodents,it lived 16 years.Wayne had a monitor that lived 5 years with variety.Maybe for some it's more than about variety,unless you've just no matter what decided despite reality it is about variety.Does Greg have a tv show,if not i guess what he says isn't relevant-give me a break

[jarich]

Wow, didnt expect to see this thread after being gone just a couple days.

For all our talk of 'improved' diets or varied diets, what we are actually doing is trying to compensate for the fact that we produce poor quality feeders for our animals and so variety helps alleviate that issue. Look at what those experts quoted here are actually saying. They are saying that they do not believe that a normal keeper can provide the energy and nutrition necessary for a growing varanid on bugs alone. Therefore they recommend rodents. It is important to read between the lines in that case. They are not saying that it cannot be done, it just isnt likely that most keepers will.

Obviously it can be, as savannah's do not get rodents in the wild regularly while they are growing. Im not going to argue about whether or not they could take them in the wild or whatever. All Im saying is that they grow plentifully, and apparently without rodents, in the wild. So saying they need them in captivity is saying that we see a need to change what we know about their feeding habits. The obvious question then is why? The answer here seems to be because either we cannot find the variety necessary for a healthy animal, or because we do not think we can feed them enough inverts for a healthy animal. Either one seems an unusual argument.

They dont appear to eat a huge amount of variety in the wild, according to Daniel. He said most animals stomach contents had from 4-8 different species of inverts in them. Thats seems like a pretty easy number to reach on a regular basis. Roaches, crickets, earthworms, snails, and crayfish/shrimp are all pretty simple to both find and raise. Obviously it is harder in Canada where there are specific laws, but not that difficult as many members here have shown. The important part of feeding those animals, as always, is how they are raised though. If raised properly, and fed properly, I see no reason to need any further variety. Again, the key here is the proper feeding of those inverts to make them as nutritious as possible.

The other argument, that they cannot be fed enough inverts, also seems like a strange argument to me. They are eating machines, and its good to keep them active by constantly feeding. Throwing a bunch of bugs in the enclosure not only helps the environment they are in biologically, but also creates an environment where the monitor is constantly searching for food. Those experts that are breeders are usually keeping a high number of monitors, so perhaps having enough inverts for so many is almost impossible. For one or two, I dont see how it is so impractical. I have to supplement from a pet store occasionally, but the inverts breed pretty quickly, so feeding a lot isnt a problem.

The other issue I have with that argument is that it is based on caloric intake alone. If you arent feeding your monitor enough calories, thats the issue, not the prey type you are feeding it. If your savannah perked up right away and has been more active after feeding fuzzies, then its a sign you werent feeding it enough in the first place. It also skips over what we know of other facets of nutritional analysis besides straight caloric intake.

I dont think any present expert is recommending a rodent only diet for savannah monitors throughout their life. I hope not, as it would be outdated and irresponsible in my opinion. Whatever analogy you want to make will have shortcomings, but the fact is that rodents are high in saturated fats, and have a reduced essential fatty acid profile in captivity. Savannahs do not appear to be adapted to high saturated fat diets. Do I think that a fuzzy or two a week is problematic? No, I dont. However, I am of the opinion that the high levels of saturated fats in rodents can be problematic for adult savannahs if fed too often. I also feel that the high levels of certain essential fatty acids in inverts are key to their longevity. From the survey that I am doing I do not have a single reported animal older than 15 that was raised on a rodent only diet as an adult. Every single animal that I know of that has reached that age was raised on either a mix of rodents and inverts or inverts only. The majority of those were raised on a mix of the two.

So I dont think that its such a big issue that Brady is feeding a fuzzy or two once a week. I do think that feeding rodents more often than that could possibly lead to issues later in life. I think that anyone stating that adult savannah's be fed a rodent only diet needs to start doing more research on nutrition and not just looking at metabolism. Just my opinion though.

[Gregg M]

The thing that people seem to be skipping over is that an all rodent diet is not bad on its own. Mix an all rodent diet with insufficient temperatures and inadequate caging, then you may have a problem.

Personally, I do not believe in an all rodent diet for varanids. I also do not believe in an all invert diet. For our larger varanids, the diet is somewhere aound 60/40 invert to rodents. The smaller odatria get way more insects compared to rodents. I would say 90/10 inverts to rodents.

Personally, I think anyone who goes to the extreme on either end of this argument is doing their animal an injustice.

From my personal experience, fedding a sav rodents even 3 times a week will do no harm at all.

[infernalis]

You make pretty good argument,all it's missing is the data part.This is an example of data Greg had a Sav live the first 5-6 years on just rodents,it lived 16 years.Wayne had a monitor that lived 5 years with variety.Maybe for some it's more than about variety,unless you've just no matter what decided despite reality it is about variety.Does Greg have a tv show,if not i guess what he says isn't relevant-give me a break

The main difference, Greg has never been caught telling lies.

Honesty equals integrity.

You are the one missing the point here, you are attmpting to say that a known (and well documented) liar has something more important to say than a whole pack of well established scientists.

I will always maintain what I have said, if I was told by your holieness that it was raining out, I would have to look out the window, go outside and make sure he was not using a garden hose AND call the weather channel before I would consider believing it.

[jaleely]

...Secondly I couldn't care less what you feed your sav but don't come on here complaining about the lack of variety when you obviously haven't been trying to hard. If you want to feed rodents fine, just man up and say that. Instead you are making excuses about availability and cost of the alternative diet.
Please don't tell us that you can't get anymore dubia roaches when you were able to get a colony less than two months ago. You need to convert some of hour passion into action.

I'll be honest, brady you seem nice, but your posts are a bit inconsistent, so i do have to agree here. Oh and i know i do the same thing sometimes, but let's be realistic. For the care of this animal, you are saying you cannot afford, and will not provide the proper insect variety....and here is where i also agree with Jarich when he says "For all our talk of 'improved' diets or varied diets, what we are actually doing is trying to compensate for the fact that we produce poor quality feeders for our animals and so variety helps alleviate that issue. Look at what those experts quoted here are actually saying. They are saying that they do not believe that a normal keeper can provide the energy and nutrition necessary for a growing varanid on bugs alone. Therefore they recommend rodents. It is important to read between the lines in that case. They are not saying that it cannot be done, it just isnt likely that most keepers will. "

(btw Jarich you are always so perfect and right on with your summaries and statements!)

So, you realize you can't give her the proper diet...so you introduce rodents. Fine, but stick to what you said you'd do, and only do it sparingly. I think it's not going to hurt a lizard if used *Sparingly*... optimal is if you could feed insects all the time. Well, you can't, so there we go. Just don't go crazy about it. I was disappointed to see that you gave her more so soon and so many.

Don't get the pets if you can't pay the vets, and don't keep them or get more if you can't house or feed the ones you have. It was a big check for me, who wanted to get all righteous and go out and save a bunch of snakes from the pound, but i knew i wouldn't be able to give as healthy of an environment or care for the ones i have if i did that and spread myself thin. Sometimes even one animal can spread you thin, if they require a lot of care.
My point is, now that you know how much you need to take care of her in regards to nutrition, stimulation, heat, humidity, housing (which you are working on) etc...
i would just try a little bit harder to find a more appropriate food source and rely less on the "junk food" method, just because it's easier and cheaper.

Please don't feed her tuns of rodents. More than one a week would be tons for her animal type. I see a lot of pics of savannas and many of them look *really* fat. lol
Don't let her go down that path!
Try again with alternate bug sources of food. I know gardens are often swarmed with snails. There is probably a way to attract them to your area and collect them.

[KORBIN5895]

Slugs really like beer.

[infernalis]

Please don't feed her tuns of rodents. More than one a week would be tons for her animal type. I see a lot of pics of savannas and many of them look *really* fat. lol
.


This is mostly because they are not kept hot enough.

My lizards digest so fast they are hungry twice a day anymore.

Lack of free space to move + low temps equals fat lizard, on ANY diet.

[exwizard]

I am amazed at how this thread started by a kid wanting to know the best way to take care of his Sav in the simplest of terms turned into a scientific debate. With all the conflicting info on this thread, any thought of me ever getting a monitor of any kind was quickly vanquished. I will not ever get a monitor of any kind. The opinions out there on their care and husbandry are too confusing and conflicting for my liking. I admire those who are successful in keeping monitors but I realize that its not for me.

[infernalis]

I am amazed at how this thread started by a kid wanting to know the best way to take care of his Sav in the simplest of terms turned into a scientific debate. With all the conflicting info on this thread, any thought of me ever getting a monitor of any kind was quickly vanquished. I will not ever get a monitor of any kind. The opinions out there on their care and husbandry are too confusing and conflicting for my liking. I admire those who are successful in keeping monitors but I realize that its not for me.


The mouse/no mouse debate infects all forums.

I have seen it for too long, all over the net.

It's sad really.

[exwizard]

yeah I can see that

[Gregg M]

The opinions out there on their care and husbandry are too confusing and conflicting for my liking. I admire those who are successful in keeping monitors but I realize that its not for me.

The thing is, they are very easy to care for as long as you provide them with what they need.

Part of keeping them is to come to your own conclusions on what they need based on SUCESSFUL keepers info. People who have kept them and bred them for years are the sources you want to take info from.

I am not saying that you should only listen to one person. You should listen to all information given and come up with your own formula. The fact of the matter is, none of us, no matter how successful, have monitor husbandry completely dialed in. We have all lost animals in our care, we have all made mistakes, and we have all failed in some way. It is part of keeping and it is vital in order to better our husbandry. Fortunately, for those not experienced in monitor keeping, there are forums like this.

My advice to you is not to follow information that is too extreme on either side of an argument. For instance, this thread is about feeding rodents. The huge majority of successful keepers and breeders fall in the middle. A varied diet of rodents and inverts seem to work best. Too far over to either side of the argument, you can be doing more harm than good and the only one who will suffer is your varanid. The rest of their husbandry requirements are pretty well agreed on.

You should never be put off by conflicting information. Common sense will take you very far in monitor keeping.

[jaleely]

all the debate about monitors has saved my husband and i a lot of heartache. he totally wanted one, and i was indifferent (absorbed in snakes lol) but i read to him all the time what's on here, and we realized we weren't set up or prepared to house and feed one responsibly. we will probably get one, one day, but until then i'm going to try to focus on taking care of all the critters i have...and waiting until i have a huge roach colony ready for any other insectivores. : ) My pyxie frog is getting HUGE and i realized quickly i'd need more food for him. Maybe when i have a nice culmination of them, PLUS an appropriate housing arrangement, then i can look into a monitor. i completely admit i would have just one with the standard wrong enclosure and wrong feeding for one, if i'd gotten it in the beginning. and anything else would not have worked for our house, so i would have had to give it up.
Anyway, it's a spot of contention but it made me aware of things i needed to be aware of.
I just want brady to be consistent and not get trapped up in what is easier for him, rather than best for the pet. I know he loves his girl though so he's working on all fronts to make her have the best environment. I want to encourage that...(so good job, dude! :)

[mo9e64]

Greg, very well said-more diplomatic too LOL

[Bradyloach]

My sav has a better environment then 85% of savs In captivity. People say oh a 8x4 is plenty you don't need that.

You don't live in Ontario, it is so hard to get food items here. Its so tough to actually find food items. So far I have crickets, night crawlers, dubia in september when my colony grows a bit more...

I am looking for shrimp, cannot find any, I will get snails very soon when it wants up. Rodents are now apart of the diet, a feeding every Sunday of rodents.

Just people don't know how hard I'm actually trying. I bought Cassie because I was told she was very easy. I didn't do research yes I know but 90% of reptile. It's are impulse.

So what? Now I'm stuck with a sav, money is tight and Cass is in a fish tank I paid 180$ for and it's no good? The next week I took Wayne's and Hedy's advice a couple other people to, but I built her a 5x2 which she is in now.

The 8x4x4 is ready this week hopefully and you can bet your life that I am putting 500 dollars of stuff into this cage on the Inside when it's here.

So look everyone, I know I'm not thE best keeper or even a little advanced but I like everyone else is learning off my mistakes. Of course there not to serious mistakes and I always ask for help when I come here everyday. I always havE questions and. And threads here.

Sure I get caugh up in different opinions from everyone but I only want what's best for that poor little lizard that got kidnapped from her home in Africa.

I do not regret getting Cassie. She has actually changed my life gave me way more responsibility already, it feels great interacting with her.

I'm 19 years old with a love for these magnificent creatures. I will continue to do what's best for her by providing perfect conditions. Nobody knows how to care for a sav without having one for at least a year. I've had my sav for like 4 months and I'm learning!

Please continue to help. Any suggestions would be great on we're toget food. I'm going to put a minnow trap in the water because I can get lots of them. Thanks everyone. We are very thankfull for your help. :)

[exwizard]

My sav has a better environment then 85% of savs In captivity. People say oh a 8x4 is plenty you don't need that.

You don't live in Ontario, it is so hard to get food items here. Its so tough to actually find food items. So far I have crickets, night crawlers, dubia in september when my colony grows a bit more...

I am looking for shrimp, cannot find any, I will get snails very soon when it wants up. Rodents are now apart of the diet, a feeding every Sunday of rodents.

Just people don't know how hard I'm actually trying. I bought Cassie because I was told she was very easy. I didn't do research yes I know but 90% of reptile. It's are impulse.

So what? Now I'm stuck with a sav, money is tight and Cass is in a fish tank I paid 180$ for and it's no good? The next week I took Wayne's and Hedy's advice a couple other people to, but I built her a 5x2 which she is in now.

The 8x4x4 is ready this week hopefully and you can bet your life that I am putting 500 dollars of stuff into this cage on the Inside when it's here.

So look everyone, I know I'm not thE best keeper or even a little advanced but I like everyone else is learning off my mistakes. Of course there not to serious mistakes and I always ask for help when I come here everyday. I always havE questions and. And threads here.

Sure I get caugh up in different opinions from everyone but I only want what's best for that poor little lizard that got kidnapped from her home in Africa.

I do not regret getting Cassie. She has actually changed my life gave me way more responsibility already, it feels great interacting with her.

I'm 19 years old with a love for these magnificent creatures. I will continue to do what's best for her by providing perfect conditions. Nobody knows how to care for a sav without having one for at least a year. I've had my sav for like 4 months and I'm learning!

Please continue to help. Any suggestions would be great on we're toget food. I'm going to put a minnow trap in the water because I can get lots of them. Thanks everyone. We are very thankfull for your help. :)

Very well stated and your efforts to care for Cassie do not go unrecognized. Dont let any of the criticism discourage you from doing what you are passionate about. Remember, Cassie is YOURS, not anyone elses and as such you have the final say.

[millertime89]

Slugs really like beer.

well that explains my affinity for it...

[infernalis]

I'm 19 years old with a love for these magnificent creatures. I will continue to do what's best for her by providing perfect conditions. Nobody knows how to care for a sav without having one for at least a year. I've had my sav for like 4 months and I'm learning!

Please continue to help. Any suggestions would be great on we're toget food. I'm going to put a minnow trap in the water because I can get lots of them. Thanks everyone. We are very thankfull for your help. :)

Brady, you are doing better than 95% of any new young Monitor keepers.

Cassie is in great hands...

[KORBIN5895]

How large of a city is sudbury? I was under the impression it is a fairly large city. Why don't you set a little of that $500 aside and invest in some more dubia roaches?

[mo9e64]

Brady, you worry to much-relax.I personally don't know where people think you are taking short cuts.I've been where you are-you just need to realize you don't know what normal is,and if you follow the basics,your monitor will act normal.You have good variety now,just make sure you feed enough.

[Gregg M]

How large of a city is sudbury? I was under the impression it is a fairly large city. Why don't you set a little of that $500 aside and invest in some more dubia roaches?

Firstly, he already eplained that dubias are illegal where he lives so they are not easy to come by.

Secondly, why force the guy to do something he does not need to do? Dubias are a great feeder, however, I have personally kept MANY varanids alive and healthy for many years without them. Crickets, worms, beetle larva, and rodents are just fine. Honestly, I have seen no difference in my collection since I have added roaches to the diet. It is about their daily nutritional intake, not what package it comes in. If you can offer them, that is great, if you cant, its not a big deal.

Feeder roaches only gained popularity over the last 6 years or so. What did we ever do before them?
:rolleyes:

[KORBIN5895]

Lol. You're funny. Roaches are illegal all over Canada iirc. That didn't stop him before. Also dubia are fairly easy to get a hold of. All you need to do is look. I personally couldn't care less what he feeds Cassie as she isn't my sav. What I have an issue with is the fact that he keeps saying I can't. If he plans on keeping her he needs to start saying I can. If feeding her is too expensive what will he do if she gets egg bound and need to see a vet because she won't lay her eggs? I understand he is only nineteen but that is not a good excuse.

Again I am not having a go at him for feeding a sav rodents. I am trying to get him to man up a bit and stop making excuses.

[mo9e64]

Korbin,if you ever had a monitor,for the first time,it's normal to be worried you're doing things wrong,that's normal.Greg would point it out something if Brady were doing it wrong.

[SpOoKy]

Roaches are actually very easy to come by in Canada and are advertised openly on RC. I can place an order today and have 100 at my door step tomorrow or the next day.

Not trying to get involved in this, just simply stating a fact.

[Bradyloach]

I wish! I live up north. Like Sudbury is big 160 thousand people. But I can't seem to find anything. My dubia is growing bybseptember I will have like 1000. And when I go to an expo in June I will pick up another thousand for her. I'm going to put a minnow trap in my favorite creek and catch a bunch for Cassie. I'll buy a 20 gal aquarium and keep them in there.

Snails and slugs will be in the diet when it warms up and I can go get some. Right now there's snow. If anyone wants to sell me some dubia I'll buy lots. The nearest guy from me is in Hamilton and that's so far away.


The new enclosure will have a nesting box. I will build one. If anyone can direct me into how I make one and how big it is.

Thanks.

[KORBIN5895]

Thanks Moe for showing me I am not getting my point across.

I couldn't care less about how he takes care of his Savannah monitor . I am not criticizing his husbandry or what he is feeding it as I have never owned one. I am trying to get him to stop making excuses and saying he can't. I do realize he is doing way better than most. I also realized he has made some real improvements.

Non potrei preoccuparmi più di meno per come prende la cura del suo monitor della savanna. Non sto criticando la sua agricoltura o che cosa sta alimentandogli poichè non ho posseduto mai uno. Sto provando a convincerlo a smettere di fare le giustificazioni e dire lui can' t. Realizzo che sta facendo il senso più meglio di la maggior parte. Inoltre ho realizzato che ha apportato alcuni miglioramenti reali.

Je ne pourrais pas m'inquiéter moins de la façon dont il prend soin de son moniteur de la savane. Je ne critique pas son agriculture ou ce qu'il lui alimente car je n'ai jamais possédé un. J'essaye de l'obliger à cesser de faire des excuses et de dire il can' ; t. Je réalise qu'il fait la manière mieux que les la plupart. J'ai également réalisé qu'il a apporté quelques vraies améliorations.

Ich könnte nicht weniger mich interessieren für, wie er um seinem Savannemonitor sich kümmert. Ich kritisiere nicht seinen Ackerbau, oder was er ihm einzieht, da ich nie ein besessen habe. Ich versuche, ihn zu veranlassen Entschuldigungen, zu bilden und zu sagen zu stoppen er can' t. Ich verwirkliche, dass er Weise besser als die meisten tut. Ich verwirklichte auch, dass er etwas reale Verbesserungen gebildet hat. (I wish Teddy was here to check my grammar on this one.)

[SpOoKy]

If anyone wants to sell me some dubia I'll buy lots. The nearest guy from me is in Hamilton and that's so far away.

I gave you all the contact for the guy on RC. He will ship and has the best prices around. Why don't you get in contact with him?

[Bradyloach]

Umm if it's gecho boys he doesn't sell anymore. Can you pm me the info again?

[infernalis]

Thanks Moe for showing me I am not getting my point across.



http://www.thamnophis.co/forums/headbang.gifhttp://www.thamnophis.co/forums/headbang.gif

[SpOoKy]

I sent him an email, I will let you know when he gets back to me.

[Bradyloach]

Thank you...

[jaleely]

I want more dubias....mine are doing well but they're all still nymphs. I'd like a PM too : )

[SpOoKy]

I want more dubias....mine are doing well but they're all still nymphs. I'd like a PM too : )

Probably be much easier for you to find some in America rather than trying to get them to you from here. They are legal in the states, here it is more of a black market thing :)

[infernalis]

I want more dubias....mine are doing well but they're all still nymphs. I'd like a PM too : )


Click on the Blaptica Dubia link at my site. There is a dealer who sells them very reasonably.

[Skits]

Roaches are actually very easy to come by in Canada and are advertised openly on RC. I can place an order today and have 100 at my door step tomorrow or the next day.

This is so nice to know haha. I spent so long looking for dubias, yet never looked at RC. Could you let me know who it is selling them as well if it's no trouble?

[jaleely]

haha for some reason i was thinking it was US. Sleepy!

infernales, i should have just bought from there from the beginning. I think i thought they were too expensive, so i went with some place random. It was a good price, like 30 bucks for 100 or something, but none of them are adults!
I always learn the hard way : )

[SpOoKy]

He hasn't got back to me yet but yes I will inform all who are wondering when I find out :)

[jarich]

Ok, so go to Kijiji and look up crayfish. There is a guy in southern Ontario selling the blue ones, 20 for $25. You would have to get him to ship to you of course, which would cost you another $20 or so probably. So for around $50, you would have 20 crayfish. Thats a good price! Feed around 14 of those and keep the other 6 for breeding in a 10-20 gallon tank. (you should be able to find one of those for cheap, say $20) It takes around a month for them to breed, and they are cheap to feed.

Im not saying you necessarily need to stop feeding rodents, but crayfish are superior as a food item. The overall calcium levels are higher, the Ca:P ratio is wayyyyyyyy better, and they are a better source of moisture as well. I would recommend this over shrimp also, especially if you are comparing crayfish to shrimp tails. Feeding just the tails of crustaceans without the shells and legs greatly reduces the calcium levels and greatly increases the phosphorous, which is the opposite of what you want. There is also less salt in freshwater crayfish than shrimp.

The other thing I meant to ask is, are you gutloading your crickets? What are you feeding them? I cant stress the importance of that enough. Crickets are pretty useless nutritionally if you just bring them home from the pet store and feed them straight away. They need at least 24 hours with a good high calcium vegetable food source before feeding them to Cassie. The same needs to be true for the dubia and your earthworms need to be fed properly too. If you are feeding the prey items very well then the variety isnt as important.

[Bradyloach]

Well I was feeding them patato... But I switched to collard greens. I bought 12 minnows so I'm about to feed them to her!