Legal interpretation

[Strutter769]

If you'll remember, yesterday we discussed temporarily re-homing Amelia Mae for our friend Jazzmyne. In that thread, I mentioned that it may not necessarily be legal here in Elgin... and apologize as ithat may NOT be entirely accurate. I've presented below the actual statute as provided by the City of Elgin's website:

"D. It is unlawful to keep, harbor, possess, maintain, or have the care or custody in the city of: (1) any snake, reptile or lizard that is physically capable of injuring any person, regardless of age, by bite, poison, constriction or other means; (2) any lion, tiger, cougar, jaguar, panther, bobcat, mountain lion, lynx, ocelet, leopard, any hybrid thereof or any other similar feline animal; (3) any wolf, coyote, jackal, fox, wild dog or hybrid thereof; (4) any bear or bison; (5) any rodent weighing more than one pound, with the exception of guinea pigs; (6) any non-canine animal not native to North American continent which when full grown normally attains the weight in excess of 200 pounds; and (7) any monkey, gorilla, chimpanzee or other similar ape-like primate. Any animal, snake, reptile, rodent or other creature prohibited to be kept, harbored, possessed or maintained i the city pursuant to this Section is declared hereby to be public nuisance and may be" apprehended and impounded at any time by a police officer or the Animal Control Officer. If such animal cannot be relocated safely to an entity licensed to handle the dangerous animal in the sole discretion of the Chief of Police, the Chief of Police may order the humane destruction of such animal. This section shall not apply to properly zoned and constructed zoos, federally licensed exhibits, circuses, animal refuges, or licensed scientific or research laboratories."

Now I ask you, am I able to own a snake or reptile in Elgin? Well, I posed that very same question to Mr. Chris Beck, the Attorney for the City.

His response: "I'm not sure!"

He went on to say: "Let me get in contact with the Animal Control officers and see how they've been enforcing it and I'll get back to you."

My friends, I DO believe that snakes and reptiles ARE in fact LEGAL in Elgin!!

Stand by for more details as they arrive!

How cool would this be?

Ok, please interpret the statute as you understand it below.

Thanks!

[Trollbie]

Scare tactic!

[BarelyBreathing]

I would get whatever answer you get in writing with an official seal on it, Roy. Be careful. Any animal can bite.

[shaunyboy]

(1) any snake, reptile or lizard that is physically capable of injuring any person, regardless of age, by bite, poison, constriction or other means;

it ALL depends on how they enforce it mate

MOST snakes are CAPABLE of injuring a person with a bite

so.....

how bad does the " injury " have to be,to have it deemed an INJURY ?????

i'd call the lawyer dude back and see if he's any further forward

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

I would get whatever answer you get in writing with an official seal on it, Roy. Be careful. Any animal can bite.

^^^^^
thats a great point pal

get lawyer dude to put it in writing mate

cheers shaun

[Strutter769]

You're exactly right, BB. *Any* animal can bite and any bite can be considered an injury. So my question was "Where do you draw the line between a bite and an injury?"

But shouldn't he, the ATTORNEY be contacting a JUDGE for interpretation and not just ask the officers how they enforce it?

[shaunyboy]

You're exactly right, BB. *Any* animal can bite and any bite can be considered an injury. So my question was "Where do you draw the line between a bite and an injury?"

But shouldn't he, the ATTORNEY be contacting a JUDGE for interpretation and not just ask the officers how they enforce it?


the judge will only see cases,that the officers reffer to the courts,so imo it would be better asking them,when the line is crossed resulting in a court case mate

cheers shaun

[BarelyBreathing]

I would get the judge to put it in writing though. Or the local DoW. The more documents you have saying you can keep your snake, the better. The mayor may be a good one to have, too.

[Strutter769]

But don't they have to be given a guideline at least as to what exactly IS legal and what isn't?

[Strutter769]

Oh yeah, I'll get the answer in writing. You think the Mayor would just sign at my request? What if they just say no?

[shaunyboy]

But don't they have to be given a guideline at least as to what exactly IS legal and what isn't?


thats how lawyers make their money mate

argueing what legislation actually means

there may have been precedents already set,regarding the species you want to keep

cheers shaun

[Strutter769]

True, Shaun. I wonder how long it'll take him to get back to me?

[USMCgunner11]

Wow! They left that very broad and open. Is there any way you could gain access to court records and see if they have ever even prosecuted anyone under this clause? If they have, the outcome of those rulings may give you insight as to how they are enforcing it.

[Strutter769]

That'd be a great thing to ask when/if the atty calls me back. Thanks Gunner!

[millertime89]

Here's my 2 cents:
As pointed out, by definition, nearly any animal is capable of causing an "injury", where I think the line should be drawn is an injury requiring hospitalization. But since this isn't in writing I wouldn't count on it. What I would try and do is get on good terms with a city council member or a member of your city's government in a position to bring this issue up. However be careful as this will raise awareness of the general public and will regularly draw attention from the lobbying arm of the HSUS which may result in stricter regulations.

The way I'm reading that is that it is illegal to have ANY animal other than birds, fish, VERY small reptiles, amphibians, small rodents, and dogs. Notice the "similar feline animal" part? Sounds like cats are illegal to me and while I doubt that is the intention of this law, it could very easily be construed as such.

[Strutter769]

Attention Everyone:

Snakes and reptiles are LEGAL in Elgin, Illinois! I will have that IN WRITING by the end of the week.

(May I ask our amazing breeders to PM me some details and assistance in getting a business license?)

Thanks for reading!

[hellosugaree]

If you'll remember, yesterday we discussed temporarily re-homing Amelia Mae for our friend Jazzmyne. In that thread, I mentioned that it may not necessarily be legal here in Elgin... and apologize as ithat may NOT be entirely accurate. I've presented below the actual statute as provided by the City of Elgin's website:

"D. It is unlawful to keep, harbor, possess, maintain, or have the care or custody in the city of: (1) any snake, reptile or lizard that is physically capable of injuring any person, regardless of age, by bite, poison, constriction or other means; (2) any lion, tiger, cougar, jaguar, panther, bobcat, mountain lion, lynx, ocelet, leopard, any hybrid thereof or any other similar feline animal; (3) any wolf, coyote, jackal, fox, wild dog or hybrid thereof; (4) any bear or bison; (5) any rodent weighing more than one pound, with the exception of guinea pigs; (6) any non-canine animal not native to North American continent which when full grown normally attains the weight in excess of 200 pounds; and (7) any monkey, gorilla, chimpanzee or other similar ape-like primate. Any animal, snake, reptile, rodent or other creature prohibited to be kept, harbored, possessed or maintained i the city pursuant to this Section is declared hereby to be public nuisance and may be" apprehended and impounded at any time by a police officer or the Animal Control Officer. If such animal cannot be relocated safely to an entity licensed to handle the dangerous animal in the sole discretion of the Chief of Police, the Chief of Police may order the humane destruction of such animal. This section shall not apply to properly zoned and constructed zoos, federally licensed exhibits, circuses, animal refuges, or licensed scientific or research laboratories."

Now I ask you, am I able to own a snake or reptile in Elgin? Well, I posed that very same question to Mr. Chris Beck, the Attorney for the City.

His response: "I'm not sure!"

He went on to say: "Let me get in contact with the Animal Control officers and see how they've been enforcing it and I'll get back to you."

My friends, I DO believe that snakes and reptiles ARE in fact LEGAL in Elgin!!

Stand by for more details as they arrive!

How cool would this be?

Ok, please interpret the statute as you understand it below.

Thanks!


This really depends on enforcement since it is vaguely written. If you interpret it in an extreme sense, it basically bans all reptiles because pretty much any reptile can bite you. However, I really don't think this is what the law was meant for. This is really up to the people who enforce the law on what they feel the law is really trying to do.

I would certainly say that no retics, burms, etc. Large boas--maybe. Smaller pythons, etc, I wouldn't see as a problem. Here is why I think this: The law says any snake capable of harming a person by bite, poison, constriction, etc. ALL snakes can bite and cause a bloody finger or whatever. BUT, the law does not just ban snakes outright--it makes a qualifier of being able to injure someone. From this, I would expect that one can reasonably assume injury as defined in the section goes beyond a bite from a small/medium snake.

Regardless of what the law really says, once again it depends on how they enforce it. Police officers are required by law to have probable cause to search people and their vehicles. However, they also routinely perform searches without probable cause, assuming that if they find something the person is still screwed either way. In that case, the law doesn't mean anything.

Interpret it how you think is reasonable, after checking with local authorities. If you are satisfied with an interpretation that says there is reasonable expectation that injury defined by the law is greater than a nip on the hand, then keep snakes. Besides that, they are going to be inside your house. You are not keeping a meth lab inside, just some snakes. The FBI isn't going to be busting down your door any time soon. I am in no way telling you to break any laws. I think a reasonable neutral person would interpret the law you cited as not entirely banning all snakes or even all constricting snakes.

[Strutter769]

They haven't questioned my 9' BCI, so I know large boas are ok. I think my Madagascans might get a bit larger though.