Why are so many people opposed to keeping wild snakes as pets?

[RandomStranger]

I caught two juvenile Black Rat Snakes two months ago, and I stormed the internet googling the proper ways to take care of them, and they are both doing fine and will let me hold them about half the time and if they start to try to escape my hold on them, I don't force them to let me hold them. I let them go about their business, and I only feed them other things I catch. I want to know why almost every source of information I find on the internet says things like "Omg, don't take in wild snakes, they will definitely get parasites and mites, and infections, and die for sure!" Both snakes are healthy, and if I notice any drop in their health that I can't fix, I plan on returning them to the wild. Note that both are juveniles, so I'm not affecting the native population because they won't be breeding this year anyway, and under my care they are protected from predators that could easily make a meal out of snakes this small.

Why is it so wrong to keep wild snakes as pets?

[infernalis]

I'm sure there will be assorted answers on this one.

[Trollbie]

I don't know much on this topic, but I personally prefer captive bred and born because I don't have to feel bad taking the snake's freedom away. If other people want to keep wild snakes though, that's their business as long as the snakes are not endangered or anything.

[youngster]

Rat snakes are cannibalistic, one day you might find a snake with a full belly and the other nowhere to be seen.

If they are in separate enclosures there isn't THAT much wrong with it.

(in my opinion :D)

[Bradyloach]

Yah as long as there in separate enclosures. How do you think people started breeding snakes and keeping them as pets

[Kingsnakechris]

Its just like saying a person sentenced to life in prison isn't that bad... He gets three meals a day, access to drs and dentists and hes even allowed out in the yard every now and then, it's not that bad... Right?

[Bradyloach]

That's not even the same? Animals taken in get cared for and actually looked after. Prison is just not a fair argument

[theapexgerman]

As long as the snakes are cared for I don't see any reason why not keeping wild ones I got 2 wild caught snakes and they do just fine

[Trollbie]

That's not even the same? Animals taken in get cared for and actually looked after. Prison is just not a fair argument

I kind of disagree... You can get a degree in prison, you can watch TV and read books all day long, or work out, or whatever. I'm not saying it's fun because you can't go anywhere, but I don't exactly think it's all treacherous...

[Trollbie]

As long as the snakes are cared for I don't see any reason why not keeping wild ones I got 2 wild caught snakes and they do just fine

Your coral and?

[theapexgerman]

Arizona mountain king laws forced me to go out an look for one

[Trollbie]

Arizona mountain king laws forced me to go out an look for one

Forced? Bahahahaha you crack me up forrealz!

[theapexgerman]

Its illegal to buy or own native species and since AZ mountain king is native only one way of getting one took me a month to find one

[Lankyrob]

Wild snakes dont need to be kept as you can get captive bred ones - this doesnt disturb the ecosystem.

Reading your post you are saying you will keep it until it gets ill and then turn it free to die in the wild?? If you ARE gonna keep it then at least get it treated by a vet if it falls ill.

[Valvaren]

Wild animals are wild animals. There are enough snakes going around as it is imo with all the breeders that if you want an animal you should give a home to one that doesn't already have one. For a wild snake the wild is home.

[infernalis]

They are all wild animals, do you all really think a captive bred animal knows any different than a wild animal?

To shed light on this, many of the "dealers" who sell you snakes are selling wild caught animals.

the ball pythons for sale at petco are all "African Imports" gee, I wonder who is breeding them there??

So stop and think things through for a minute, because if you keep any reptiles at all, you are keeping wild animals as "pets"

I go through this all the time with people, oh my Savannah Monitor is "captive farmed" ....

They grab up pregnant females, hold them until she lays her eggs, then send mom off to the leather plant to make watch bands and wallets.

That's what "farmed" means.

My steak was "farmed" too.

[Bradyloach]

Wow wayne! Couldn't have said it better myself

[Trollbie]

They are all wild animals, do you all really think a captive bred animal knows any different than a wild animal?

To shed light on this, many of the "dealers" who sell you snakes are selling wild caught animals.

the ball pythons for sale at petco are all "African Imports" gee, I wonder who is breeding them there??

So stop and think things through for a minute, because if you keep any reptiles at all, you are keeping wild animals as "pets"

I go through this all the time with people, oh my Savannah Monitor is "captive farmed" ....

They grab up pregnant females, hold them until she lays her eggs, then send mom off to the leather plant to make watch bands and wallets.

That's what "farmed" means.

My steak was "farmed" too.

OMG... Really? Why do people want to wear animal skin so much now that there are alternatives?

:(

[theapexgerman]

Damm wayne your on it today lol

[infernalis]

Google Varanus Leather...

Gator boots, snakeskin belts.

Not everyone loves reptiles the same way we do.

Some states have really messed up laws, it's OK to run down a snake with your lawn mower, but "illegal" to keep one as a pet.

the world is a messed up place.

[jaleely]

i disagree with having imports, and all that jazz. the reality is though i keep exotic pets. i don't like the idea of a bunch of people going off and catching some in the wild, bagging them up, and shipping them in horrible conditions. I don't really like the idea of local or even large retail people keeping 100s of snakes in small racks and using them only for breeding, either. But...here i am, keeping exotic animals in cages.
Taking them from the wild can disturb the ecosystem if done in excess, but also taking into a home environment a silly couple of snakes that don't know to be afraid, or are sitting out sunning themselves and protecting them from the elements and wild other creatures (as long as you -are-doing that and providing them proper care) in reality, the snake won't know the difference and will eventually become comfortable in it's new home.
so, mixed opinion. I don't like it. I seem to encourage it however.

[red ink]

Can people not find these animals in captivity?

If they can... then there is no reason to take from the wild. That is effectively poaching whether it is legal to take or not. You have taken an animal from it's natural environment where it has it's own place in. Sorry that is something that I can not condone. Since when did our love of keeping reptile mean we destroy and take them from the wild. I understand that there are a lot of WC imports over there, but seriously that is something you guys over there need to make a concentrated effort to combat, breed them and push the harvesters out of the market - that can only be done by supporting CBB.

[red ink]

Its illegal to buy or own native species and since AZ mountain king is native only one way of getting one took me a month to find one


Nice... so you went ahead and broke native animal laws just cause you wanted one. POACHING... that's what that act is called just in case you didn't know. Nice work bud.

[Bradyloach]

That is true! Hmm I'm going to change my opinion: i think if you want the animal and you do believe you can give it a better home: example; a turtle that's injured then it would be a rescue And give it a better home with food and safety. But taking a thriving animal like a savannah monitor and putting it in the pet trade or making a belt out of it that is not right. If the monitor was injured and you can give it a better home untill it's all healed up well go for it, but shipping it across the ocean is going to make the health a lot worse

[theapexgerman]

Yea I. Poach atleast with me has an better chance at living

[red ink]

Yea I. Poach atleast with me has an better chance at living


Hmmm... better chance at living in a box vs what it was intended to do in the wild. Live or die out there it has it's place, if you can't understand that...

There's a reason people with half a brain preserve their native habitat in an effort to save an animal rather than just POACHING them out of the wild you know cause they'll be better off with them and all that.

I wonder if people can use that same justifications for San Fran garters.... They are obviously not doing to well in the wild, wait there's laws against it... Nah who care's they'll be better of with me. Can we organise a reptile meet on this forum to go to Cali and we can all look for one and keep them, just don't tell the federales...

[theapexgerman]

There ain't no laws in other states bout owning AZ mountain king I just can't buy one in arizona so I went out to catch one

[Kingsnakechris]

Oh here come the poaching preachers..... It's no different then catching any other wild snake. Id prefer CB but to say someone is poaching by catching one species but not poaching by catching another? Makes no sense...

[red ink]

There ain't no laws in other states bout owning AZ mountain king I just can't buy one in arizona so I went out to catch one

LOL... Obviously AZ are trying to preserve them in their endemic range... What's already out there in other states is of no concern to them as they are not wild and already in captivity. Hence the laws only apply against keeping and POACHING in that state.

WAIT... maybe that isn't so obvious after all huh?

[Kingsnakechris]

It isn't keeping AND poaching. The only law being broke is possessing a native snake.

[theapexgerman]

Most AZ kings are WC from here and sold to other places there are CB but most are wild

[red ink]

Oh here come the poaching preachers..... It's no different then catching any other wild snake. Id prefer CB but to say someone is poaching by catching one species but not poaching by catching another? Makes no sense...

YES makes no sense... How much do you know about sustainable harvest, how much do you know why a species snake is protected vs one that isn't? Maybe if you go and find out it would make more sense....

Even if it was legal, the animal isn't in decline from the wild, you still think it's OK for someone to grab one from the wild if it's available in captivity?

[red ink]

Most AZ kings are WC from here and sold to other places there are CB but most are wild

HENCE.....

AZ trying to protect them from POACHERS

[theapexgerman]

So you got an problem with me so called poaching them while others poach to sell for money in other states

[Kingsnakechris]

No, read my previous post on the topic. I'm against collecting from the wild, but what your saying is poaching, isn't. I live in AZ as well, they don't fine you for "poaching" but possessing a native species.

[theapexgerman]

They don't even fine you most of the times just take away the reptile

[red ink]

So you got an problem with me so called poaching them while others poach to sell for money in other states

NAH mate I got a problem with ALL poachers, your just the first one I met silly enough to openly admit it.

[theapexgerman]

I admited awhile ago but what ya going to nothing lol

[jarich]

I think that context is always key in these discussions. Most places that have these laws do so because there are native species that are threatened due to things like habitat encroachment, pollution, or other human disturbances. In which case, a bunch of people going out to catch them and put them in cages isn't the only problem, its just one in a list of many problems. When you put it in a cage in your room, it isn't just that you might kill that one, its that all the offspring that might possibly have come from that one are now no longer in the wild either. Its also why zoos and license holders can keep them if they plan to breed them and then release them back into the wild.

So its not just about one person going out and taking one animal, its about the entire context of human interactions with species in the wild.

[Kingsnakechris]

That and they are not endangered. Just native.

[jarich]

Its a blanket law, usually. To both keep the endangered ones safe and to keep the ones that aren't yet endangered from being so. Think about those other human encroachments and you'll understand that its pretty unlikely that trend is going to reverse anytime soon

[Aaron_S]

Yea I. Poach atleast with me has an better chance at living

Yeah cause you know the whole species hasn't survived in the wild without your help for the last X number of years....

[Kingsnakechris]

Yeah, I understand. At least you have common respect to make your point without name calling and insults. You get your point across to people much more efficiently that way.

[Kingsnakechris]

Its a blanket law, usually. To both keep the endangered ones safe and to keep the ones that aren't yet endangered from being so. Think about those other human encroachments and you'll understand that its pretty unlikely that trend is going to reverse anytime soon

^^^^^ this is who i was talking to

[zaroba]

I caught two juvenile Black Rat Snakes two months ago, and I stormed the internet googling the proper ways to take care of them, and they are both doing fine and will let me hold them about half the time and if they start to try to escape my hold on them, I don't force them to let me hold them. I let them go about their business, and I only feed them other things I catch. I want to know why almost every source of information I find on the internet says things like "Omg, don't take in wild snakes, they will definitely get parasites and mites, and infections, and die for sure!" Both snakes are healthy, and if I notice any drop in their health that I can't fix, I plan on returning them to the wild. Note that both are juveniles, so I'm not affecting the native population because they won't be breeding this year anyway, and under my care they are protected from predators that could easily make a meal out of snakes this small.

Why is it so wrong to keep wild snakes as pets?

1. Typically wild animals of all types have parasites just due to living in the wild. Just like if we go out in the woods, we can come back with ticks and mosquito bites. Being captured and brought into captivity can cause severe stress which reduces the effectiveness of the snakes immune system thus allowing any parasites to become worse, possibly to the point of death of the snake.

2. You say your not effecting the population because they wont be breeding this year, well, they wont be breeding in the wild next year either since you have them so yes, you are affecting the population in the long run.

3. In many/most states, it is actually illegal to take native reptiles out of the wild or there are limits (you'd have to check with your states Fish & Game department). Mostly because they are endangered DUE to people taking them out of the wild like you did.

4. In many/most states, it is also illegal to RETURN reptiles to the wild after they have been in captivity for more then a few months due to the possibility of introducing new parasites/diseases/illness to wild populations which may pose to be harmful or even detrimental to the survival of the wild population if they have no natural immune defense to it. for example, you releasing it due to it getting sick, you may introduce a new illness to the wild population.


The only time that wild animals should be kept are for short term purposes:
1. Rehabilitation. A while back one of my cats kept catching baby garter snakes, so I took them in so their injuries could heal and then returned them to nature, away from the house and cat.
2. Relocation. I've found Box turtles in places where housing developments were going up, moved them to a large park. Same with snakes from my neighborhood due to kids that insist on killing them.
3. Education/Research. Take in a tadpole, watch it morph into a frog, release it. Catch a snake, weigh it, measure it, study it, release it.

The only time a wild animal should be kept in captivity forever is if it is no longer able to survive in the wild due to injury. A local zoo here has some animals that are injured, like an eagle with one wing. It was either shot or hit by a vehicle and as such can no longer survive in the wild and actually requires human care for survival.

[Valvaren]

If I could like that post I would a million times! Very well said zaroba

[KORBIN5895]

Let's clarify something.

Poaching (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poaching) is the illegal taking of wild plants or animals;

[RandomStranger]

Rat snakes are cannibalistic, one day you might find a snake with a full belly and the other nowhere to be seen.

If they are in separate enclosures there isn't THAT much wrong with it.

(in my opinion :D)

I didn't think they were cannibalistic but both are in separate containers and both containers are probably big enough for 4 foot snakes. One of them is significantly smaller than the other one so I decided not to risk it.

[RandomStranger]

Its just like saying a person sentenced to life in prison isn't that bad... He gets three meals a day, access to drs and dentists and hes even allowed out in the yard every now and then, it's not that bad... Right?

I think you're anthropomorphizing snakes a little bit too much... I love snakes but I also understand that they are nothing like people. If they can live out a normal life, they are satisfied. Snakes can not be happy or sad, they can be healthy and unhealthy and that's about it. I don't feel bad about, as some people would call it, "imprisoning" my snake. I don't see the difference between keeping wild snakes and keeping captive bred snakes if they are healthy. Just because the captive bred snakes might be "Used to living in captivity so they don't mind" I really don't think snakes are capable of caring the way some people think they are.

[RandomStranger]

Can people not find these animals in captivity?

If they can... then there is no reason to take from the wild. That is effectively poaching whether it is legal to take or not. You have taken an animal from it's natural environment where it has it's own place in. Sorry that is something that I can not condone. Since when did our love of keeping reptile mean we destroy and take them from the wild. I understand that there are a lot of WC imports over there, but seriously that is something you guys over there need to make a concentrated effort to combat, breed them and push the harvesters out of the market - that can only be done by supporting CBB.

Well... I do have a reason. Wild snakes are free, captive ones cost money. And as I've said, these snakes are both juveniles so I am not affecting their environment. I see tons of snakes in the area that I found them so even if I kept them, it wouldn't even make a dent in the ecosystem. It wouldn't be very practical for the survival of snakes as a species if removing one or two could gravely endanger a given population... because that could easily be done by a predator. I don't plan on keeping these snakes forever. I will probably let them go sometime in fall before they go into hibernation. They have a 100% to be safe from predators while I am taking care of them. I haven't destroyed anything.

[RandomStranger]

1. Typically wild animals of all types have parasites just due to living in the wild. Just like if we go out in the woods, we can come back with ticks and mosquito bites. Being captured and brought into captivity can cause severe stress which reduces the effectiveness of the snakes immune system thus allowing any parasites to become worse, possibly to the point of death of the snake.

2. You say your not effecting the population because they wont be breeding this year, well, they wont be breeding in the wild next year either since you have them so yes, you are affecting the population in the long run.

3. In many/most states, it is actually illegal to take native reptiles out of the wild or there are limits (you'd have to check with your states Fish & Game department). Mostly because they are endangered DUE to people taking them out of the wild like you did.

4. In many/most states, it is also illegal to RETURN reptiles to the wild after they have been in captivity for more then a few months due to the possibility of introducing new parasites/diseases/illness to wild populations which may pose to be harmful or even detrimental to the survival of the wild population if they have no natural immune defense to it. for example, you releasing it due to it getting sick, you may introduce a new illness to the wild population.


The only time that wild animals should be kept are for short term purposes:
1. Rehabilitation. A while back one of my cats kept catching baby garter snakes, so I took them in so their injuries could heal and then returned them to nature, away from the house and cat.
2. Relocation. I've found Box turtles in places where housing developments were going up, moved them to a large park. Same with snakes from my neighborhood due to kids that insist on killing them.
3. Education/Research. Take in a tadpole, watch it morph into a frog, release it. Catch a snake, weigh it, measure it, study it, release it.

The only time a wild animal should be kept in captivity forever is if it is no longer able to survive in the wild due to injury. A local zoo here has some animals that are injured, like an eagle with one wing. It was either shot or hit by a vehicle and as such can no longer survive in the wild and actually requires human care for survival.

I don't plan on keeping the snakes long term, so since they aren't breeding this year, I still am not affecting their population, and instead I am protecting two from predation as long as I have them. I will probably release them in the fall before hibernation. Also, Black Rat Snakes are very common and in the area that I find them, I always see at least 3. about 1/4 of the ones i find are breeding size and I just let them go when I catch them.

[red ink]

Well... I do have a reason. Wild snakes are free, captive ones cost money. And as I've said, these snakes are both juveniles so I am not affecting their environment. I see tons of snakes in the area that I found them so even if I kept them, it wouldn't even make a dent in the ecosystem. It wouldn't be very practical for the survival of snakes as a species if removing one or two could gravely endanger a given population... because that could easily be done by a predator. I don't plan on keeping these snakes forever. I will probably let them go sometime in fall before they go into hibernation. They have a 100% to be safe from predators while I am taking care of them. I haven't destroyed anything.

Ok... wild snakes are free NICE.

Your not making a dent... yep two out of the wild is not a dent, no wait that that's minus two from the wild i.e. population decline. I wonder if "I" was replace by "we" would that still be ok or is it just OK if it's an individual "I" taking wildlife out of a population instead of a "we". But what the heck as long as "we" can all get free snakes.

So "probably" let them go before the fall into hibernation, how much do you know about these snakes and their natural adaptation, will your interference in their natural adaptation to the seasons in their endemic habitat have a negative or positive effect on them, you know as they didn't get to prepare for the winter "naturally". Nice warm tank... stunted hunting instincts, no adaptation to feast or famine situation (as juveniles they need to adjust to this). But hey "free snakes"

Protecting them from predators?

You are their predator... just because you didn't kill them it does not mean you didn't take from the ecosystem. At least if they are preyed upon it feeds something else and given a chance for surviving another day. What you have done is predation at it's lowest form... there's no real purpose, rhyme or reason apart from "free snakes"

[UwabamiReptiles]

If you are just going to let them go before winter, you should just let them go now. There is no reason for you to keep them from everything I've read in this thread. It seems like you caught some snakes and decided it would be cool to keep them for awhile. If you like black rat snakes so much, problem free CB ones are literally 20 dollars. And you wouldn't be throwing a snake use to captivity back into the wild right before winter starts. Most of the time its better to just let nature do its thing without human interference. Just my two cents.

[infernalis]

Well... I do have a reason. Wild snakes are free.

This changes my point of view drastically.

I own several snakes that I "collected" from the wild, but they have been anything but "free"

If your motivations are "free" animals, then I am sorry, you have the wrong idea.

each and every one of my "collected" animals were in eminent peril when I chose to bring them in.

Carmella - Milk snake, frozen solid and suffering from frostbite, required treatment and tail docking to prevent the spread of gangrene.

Sunshine - Similar, was found in late november with serious tail injury, required medical attention and recovery.

People on this forum who have known me for any length of time also know that I build habitats and wetland projects and protect my habitats from outside intruders.

So I am afraid I may have left the wrong impression with you.

I do not feel that anyone who is looking for free snakes is going to be inclined to go to a herp vet, rather let the animal perish and go grab another freebie.

That practice is wrong X 10

[RandomStranger]

This changes my point of view drastically.

I own several snakes that I "collected" from the wild, but they have been anything but "free"

If your motivations are "free" animals, then I am sorry, you have the wrong idea.

each and every one of my "collected" animals were in eminent peril when I chose to bring them in.

Carmella - Milk snake, frozen solid and suffering from frostbite, required treatment and tail docking to prevent the spread of gangrene.

Sunshine - Similar, was found in late november with serious tail injury, required medical attention and recovery.

People on this forum who have known me for any length of time also know that I build habitats and wetland projects and protect my habitats from outside intruders.

So I am afraid I may have left the wrong impression with you.

I do not feel that anyone who is looking for free snakes is going to be inclined to go to a herp vet, rather let the animal perish and go grab another freebie.

That practice is wrong X 10

It's not that I'm not willing to spend any money on my snakes. I will take them to the vet if something is up, but because I got them from the wild, there was no initial investment in these snakes. I'm still going to be ensuring that they are healthy. I definitely wouldn't just abandon them because they got sick and let them die.

[exwizard]

I knew this was going to be a hot topic as soon as I saw that this thread was open. From what Ive seen, no amount of debating is going to change anybodys mind. I have always been "live and let live" and always will. All of this having been said, I for one do not keep wild caught snakes nor will I ever, although I do not begrudge someobody else who does. Red Ink, you are very passionate about your point of view. I can see that. RandomStranger, I can also see your passion in your viewpoints as well. Frankly, I dont see an end to this. One feeds on another which feeds back to the one and so on.

I will tell you guys what I think about this and lay it on the table so to speak. As I said, I for one do not keep wild caught snakes nor will I ever. Not only is it illegal here to do that but we cant even keep native species that are c/b. Even if it was legal I still would not keep w/c snakes. I dont trust their temperment and the risk factor is too high for parasites and diseases. I believe that if its wild, it should stay in the wild and if its c/b, it should stay captive and never released, but thats just me.

I also understand that there are circumstances in which other people find it perfectly ok to catch wild snakes. While I may not agree with their reasoning, its their responsibility and their problem. Oh and btw, I also agree with Korbin on poaching. Its the illegal taking of a wild animal from its natural habitat. By definition, if its not illegal, its not poaching.

[shaunyboy]

" Both snakes are healthy, and if I notice any drop in their health that I can't fix, I plan on returning them to the wild.


in the post 2 above this one,you say you " WON'T ABANDON " your snakes,yet the above quote is from your first post in this thread

you are contradicting yourself

re name calling
poaching is what you are doing,so why be offended at being labelled a poacher

imo,keeping a hatchling and feeding it,then tossing it back in the wild is wrong. (as red ink has already pointed out)

rescuing an injured wild snake,getting it back to full health,then releasing it as soon as possible,imo is completely different and understandable

as is keeping an injured wild snake for the remainder of its life,if going back to the wild would mean it had a lot less chance of survival,due to said injury

cheers shaun

[Lankyrob]

I was going to say exactly the same thing as Shauny, you are changing your point of view to fit the opinion of those that are criticising you.

At the end of the day what you are doing is wrong in my opinion, but i cant change what you are doing. I would however respect you more if you stuck to your story rather than changing it every time you post - either you will take these wild animals to the vet if they get sick or you will dump them in the wild and let them die.

My GUESS would be that you wont take them to the vet as the vet will likely report you for taking wild animals from their ecosystem (at least this is what would happen in the UK).

[shaunyboy]

My GUESS would be that you wont take them to the vet as the vet will likely report you for taking wild animals from their ecosystem (at least this is what would happen in the UK).

^^^^^
thats a great point rob

how can the op take an illegal to own snake to a vet

imo'the vet would be duty bound to report someone breaking the law

cheers shaun

[Aaron_S]

You know the whole thing about "I'm saving a wild animals life because now predators can't eat it" is a really bad argument. You just disrupted the food cycle. Life in the wild goes on, larger predators need to eat too so why did you just take their potential dinner?

[zaroba]

My GUESS would be that you wont take them to the vet as the vet will likely report you for taking wild animals from their ecosystem (at least this is what would happen in the UK).

I agree with this.

And even if you claim that you'll take the snake to a vet outside of the state (since your story seems to change based on our replies), I find it impossible to believe that you would be willing to pay possibly $200 or more for a snake you refused to pay $20 for. Otherwise you would have bought one from a private breeder or from an expo in a different state

[Kingsnakechris]

I agree with this.

And even if you claim that you'll take the snake to a vet outside of the state (since your story seems to change based on our replies), I find it impossible to believe that you would be willing to pay possibly $200 or more for a snake you refused to pay $20 for. Otherwise you would have bought one from a private breeder or from an expo in a different state

Plus the cost of an emergency last minute road trip...

[RandomStranger]

I didn't refuse to buy a snake, I just noticed an abundance of these snakes around and decided I wanted a snake for a pet. I have everything I need to take care of them. I realize I said "free pet" but to be honest, I never thought about keeping a snake as a pet until now because I've never been anywhere that sells them, but I had an opportunity in front of me.

[Snakefood]

my suggestion then would be to release these guys back where you found em, and create another post looking for the nearest reptile expo to you, it is the season for them!!

That way, you can have a CB snake that is legal for you to own. If you like colubrids, there are many gorgeous Corns, Kings, Rats and Milks available from local breeders and Expo's at very reasonable prices.

[RandomStranger]

my suggestion then would be to release these guys back where you found em, and create another post looking for the nearest reptile expo to you, it is the season for them!!

That way, you can have a CB snake that is legal for you to own. If you like colubrids, there are many gorgeous Corns, Kings, Rats and Milks available from local breeders and Expo's at very reasonable prices.

Yeah I think I'm just going to release them in about a week and a half (after the smaller one finishes molting) They've both been doing fine so far but I realized there isn't really any reason to keep them, as I can easily find and catch like 4 on any given sunny day if I really want to see some, and I can see a variety of sizes too. I had been doing that for about 3 weeks before I decided to take two of them anyway (and it was actually more fun to just have them for a little while before letting them go) Found a three and a half foot Black Rat Snake, and he was so docile he let me put him on my back and arms and he coiled around my neck.

Anyway, what are some cool snakes that are reasonably priced? I think I might buy some in a month or so.

[Snakefood]

ya, I think releasing them is a great idea, and all of us here LOVE pics of field herping, so you could share the wild snakes in your area with us that way!!

check out this site for Cornsnake morphs: VERY close to kings and the same basic care. I am POSITIVE you'll find one on this list that you just HAVE TO HAVE!!

Corn Snake Morphs - The Definitive Guide - Ians Vivarium (http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/species/elaphe_guttata/)

[Lankyrob]

Yeah I think I'm just going to release them in about a week and a half (after the smaller one finishes molting) They've both been doing fine so far but I realized there isn't really any reason to keep them, as I can easily find and catch like 4 on any given sunny day if I really want to see some, and I can see a variety of sizes too. I had been doing that for about 3 weeks before I decided to take two of them anyway (and it was actually more fun to just have them for a little while before letting them go) Found a three and a half foot Black Rat Snake, and he was so docile he let me put him on my back and arms and he coiled around my neck.

Anyway, what are some cool snakes that are reasonably priced? I think I might buy some in a month or so.


Please DO NOT let ANY snake no matter the size go near your neck, there is enough bad press about us herpers already without adding to it :)

[RandomStranger]

Please DO NOT let ANY snake no matter the size go near your neck, there is enough bad press about us herpers already without adding to it :)

I can't resist it. Not every day that you find a snake so docile that it doesn't try to bite and makes very few attempts to escape (after realizing how warm I am)

[Lankyrob]

I can't resist it. Not every day that you find a snake so docile that it doesn't try to bite and makes very few attempts to escape (after realizing how warm I am)

Well you should resist it, its dangerous and unnecessary, especially if you are field herping and get "put out", will anyone find you?

[RandomStranger]

Well you should resist it, its dangerous and unnecessary, especially if you are field herping and get "put out", will anyone find you?

It wasn't choking me, just tightening somewhat. If I DID pass out, no one would need to find me because the snake would slither off and I'd wake up in a few minutes. No problem. Plus I was ready to slip my hand in between the snake in my neck for breathing room if it randomly decided it wanted to suffocate me hahaha. Not too worried about it. I'd have at least 20 seconds to react to it tightening enough to try to suffocate me (Plus it wasn't THAT big)

[jaleely]

Hey apexgerman will you ever take your poached animals to the vet if they get sick? Just wondering. Someone brought up a good point about that.

[theapexgerman]

When I first got him I did and the vet said everything was ok so since I can't buy one stupid lawa but I could own one I went up north and caught him I didn't ask the vet at the time if it was illegal or not

[theapexgerman]

And I only got 2 so call poach animals

[Kingsnakechris]

Theapexgerman has took them to the vet.... They checked out okay... Also I'm sure he would drop a majority of his paycheck to fix anything that could have been wrong.

[theapexgerman]

Would get my coral snake to an vet but no one will see him to much of an risk

[Skits]

I believe if you get a wild caught animal and give them proper space and care, and that the animal isn't overly stressed being in an enclosure that it's fine. I've raised a wild caught toad, and she's become so dependent of me that she would never make it in the wild. And I see it that if you are able to catch the animal, anyone could of caught it and that person could take improper care of the animal, hurt it, kill it, etc. Better for it to be safe in a good home.

Edit: Didn't read through the pages oops! Didn't realise the subject changed so much :p

[Lurker]

I don't know how strong a Black Rat Snake is, but if you think you have 20 seconds to casually correct whatever is cutting off your carotid arteries you might want to think again. I have personally put out a training partner within 3 seconds of applying a strangle, from force of squeezing alone.
You also assumed the snake would slither off, and you'd come right back, yet claimed the snake was enjoying your body heat. Assume instead that the snake puts you out, and stays because it's a dang snake and you are warm (still). You'd be in some trouble.

People often underestimate how strangles actually work, and how easily you can lose consciousness. Feeling the power inside a coastal carpet python moving around my arms was enough to tell me never let a snake near my neck.

[Lankyrob]

It wasn't choking me, just tightening somewhat. If I DID pass out, no one would need to find me because the snake would slither off and I'd wake up in a few minutes. No problem. Plus I was ready to slip my hand in between the snake in my neck for breathing room if it randomly decided it wanted to suffocate me hahaha. Not too worried about it. I'd have at least 20 seconds to react to it tightening enough to try to suffocate me (Plus it wasn't THAT big)


20 seconds?? Your having a laugh, IF (and i agree it is a big IF) the snake hits the correct pressure points you will be unconscious BEFORE you have a chance to react. Professional MMA fighters that KNOW that the other fighter is putting a "choke" hold on dont last 20 seconds.

If you fall and smash your skull you wont wake up either, but you will add another statistic to the figures of those people trying to put a stop to the hobby we all love. Also, when you fall you may hurt the snake and noone wants that to happen.

The size of the snake is irrelevant, if you want proof join an MMA class and ask the sensei to put you out - maybe you will understand more then.

[SnakeyJay]

A couple of pounds of pressure on your main arteries is all it takes to knock someone unconscious... My 4ft corn snake made me go dizzy when I made that mistake... He slipped so tightened his hold, strong little guy :D

[Kingsnakechris]

Yeah, in the army were trained to deal with hand to hand situations, the first and foremost rule is DO NOT LET THEM get a headlock or attempt to choke you. Unconsciousness happens VERY quick... Then your S.O.L

[jaleely]

Nuh uh, Xena says there's 30 seconds before you pass out from lack of blood to the brain!

apex...i see, you only have two so called poached snakes. Well, two is reasonable. It's just two. We should all go take only two.

Btw do you have *any* experience with poisonous snakes besides your coral? Do you keep anti-venom?

But, taking snakes from the wild, that are protected...for some just obnoxious reason instead of a real reason...and going off to kill rattle snakes. Clearly i would trust that you would be responsible with a poisonous snake and that you would take any sick snakes to a vet! Silly me.

[shaunyboy]

20 seconds?? Your having a laugh, IF (and i agree it is a big IF) the snake hits the correct pressure points you will be unconscious BEFORE you have a chance to react. Professional MMA fighters that KNOW that the other fighter is putting a "choke" hold on dont last 20 seconds.

If you fall and smash your skull you wont wake up either, but you will add another statistic to the figures of those people trying to put a stop to the hobby we all love. Also, when you fall you may hurt the snake and noone wants that to happen.

The size of the snake is irrelevant, if you want proof join an MMA class and ask the sensei to put you out - maybe you will understand more then.

^^^^^
have to aghree with you rob

when i taught judo it took roughly 5 to 10 seconds to render someone incapable,using a cartoid artery chock

windpipe takes a little longer,but NO where near 20 to 30 seconds

2 to 4 seconds has most folk tapping out,before its too late and they're unconcious

re cartoid arteys
imo,when you close down the cartoid artey,oxygen is pretty much instantly cut from the brain,which imo leaves about 3 to 5 seconds before your head goes fuzzy,because your starting to black out

cheers shaun

[red ink]

^^^^^
have to aghree with you rob

when i taught judo it took roughly 5 to 10 seconds to render someone incapable,using a cartoid artery chock

windpipe takes a little longer,but NO where near 20 to 30 seconds

2 to 4 seconds has most folk tapping out,before its too late and they're unconcious

re cartoid arteys
imo,when you close down the cartoid artey,oxygen is pretty much instantly cut from the brain,which imo leaves about 3 to 5 seconds before your head goes fuzzy,because your starting to black out

cheers shaun

Yes a couple of minutes later even if your windpipe is not blocked and your breathing... brain damage start to occur

[shaunyboy]

Yes a couple of minutes later even if your windpipe is not blocked and your breathing... brain damage start to occur

^^^^^
agree with you 100% mate

at our judo club we taught the kids,to tap out the " very second " a cartoid chock was put on them

it was to avoid brain damage,which occurs rapidly if the cartoids remain closed

the brain gets starved of oxygen and if held long enough will cause irreversable damage

if the kids let themselves be rendered unconcious,due to being too stubborn to tap out,they were excluded from the club for 4 to 6 weeks,as we could not take the chance of a kid being permantly damaged,also to trach them what they were learning was NOT a game and could have lethal consiquences

cheers shaun

[jaleely]

I just saw something totally awesome on this thread. Wayne you are great! lol maybe not fair of me, but i say good choice.

[infernalis]

Long overdue.. Aaron may be disappointed, he will have to find someone new to pick on now.

[Mose]

Interesting thread, even though I'm late to the party. Lots of great points made - too many for me to comment on at this point, but I do have a few comments. First, I 100% support efforts to rely on CBB animals in our hobby rather than WC, for all of the reasons already mentioned. I regularly field herp, and have for 20 years, but I only bring back photos and memories from my trips. I don't have a single animal in my collection that is native to my area. Having said that, if I came across an animal that was very unique in some way, I would consider bringing it home and breeding it for the purposes of introducing its unique characteristics into the hobby. Aside from that, my philosophy is to let wild things stay wild.

The state in which I live (Nebraska) has wildlife laws that cover both game and non-game species. Species that are not protected as endangered or threatened can be harvested as long as a license is purchased. So if I want to fish for bass, I just purchase a license, and as long as I comply with bag limits and all other regulations, I am free to go out and fish as much as I want to. Non-game species like snakes can be collected ("harvested") in exactly the same way, with the same license. If I have a fishing license, and want to catch a garter snake and keep it, I can legally do so and not be "poaching". I have friends at the Game and Parks division, and none of them have seen cases of excessive collection of native herps. The bag limits effectively protect native species from large scale commercial collection, while preserving the freedom of individuals to collect the occasional animal. The system seems to work just fine here.

LOL... Obviously AZ are trying to preserve them in their endemic range... What's already out there in other states is of no concern to them as they are not wild and already in captivity. Hence the laws only apply against keeping and POACHING in that state.

Maybe or maybe not. A number of states have strict laws against keeping native snakes, which means residents are breaking the law if they go out in their back yard, collect a snake, and do a great job of keeping it in a perfectly suitable enclosure in their home. However, in many of those states, it is perfectly legal for those same residents to go out in their back yard with a shovel and kill every snake they see. So...indiscriminately slaughtering them is fine, but keeping and breeding them makes one a criminal. Can you explain to me how laws like that are meant to "preserve them in their endemic range..."? Maybe I'm cynical, but I suspect motives other than "concern for our native snakes" are behind laws like that.

[Kingsnakechris]

The law out here (AZ) is similar but there are certain snakes we can not collect. I don't agree with WC either, but I do agree that it's a bit backwards to be allowed to kill a native species and not be penalized but collecting one poses a hefty fine.

[Mose]

The law out here (AZ) is similar but there are certain snakes we can not collect.

Same here. For example, Nebraska is on the extreme northeast edge of the range of Arizona elegans, so they are only found in a few counties on the southern edge of the state. Consequently they are listed as "locally endangered", even though they are quite common in other states. It is therefore illegal to collect or possess one in Nebraska, as it should be. On the other hand, Plains Garter snakes are EVERYWHERE. Every time I mow my lawn, I have to stop, catch, and move at least 5 to the marshy area next to my property so I don't slice-and-dice them. It would make no sense at all to prohibit collection of that species. I just think that blanket laws that cover possession of all native species are a bit excessive.

[red ink]

Maybe or maybe not. A number of states have strict laws against keeping native snakes, which means residents are breaking the law if they go out in their back yard, collect a snake, and do a great job of keeping it in a perfectly suitable enclosure in their home. However, in many of those states, it is perfectly legal for those same residents to go out in their back yard with a shovel and kill every snake they see. So...indiscriminately slaughtering them is fine, but keeping and breeding them makes one a criminal. Can you explain to me how laws like that are meant to "preserve them in their endemic range..."? Maybe I'm cynical, but I suspect motives other than "concern for our native snakes" are behind laws like that.


That would be in the legalities of the "protected" species.... In most cases a protected species would mean no collecting, no keeping and "no destruction". Unfortunately that "no destruction" part is where the grey area starts... Native wildlife laws (at least here) dictates we may not possess native animals without appropriate license (barring some species). We are not allowed to collect any species from the wild at all, regardless of conservation status.

We are however allowed to destroy/kill native wildlife in defense of people or livestock (grey area)....

So in most cases it would come down to individual ethics and morals. A person that has no interest in reptiles killing them in the in defense of wildlife clause; nothing we can do about it as the laws allow them to.

A person with a supposed love/interest in reptiles doing the same thing i.e. illegal collection or killing instead of calling a relocator is a reprehensible act in my book.

So at the finer points it would come down to the semantics of the legislation... most people would hear it's illegal to keep them but not to kill them and their happy with that. How many people actually would be interested in the semantics of the law that is involved?

I actually tried to find the legalities of AZ collection in regards to king snakes through the state website... vague and convoluded but I did find that the Sonoran king snake is a "protected" species.... the level of protection from their PDFs was not clearly stated unfortunately.

[Kingsnakechris]

They are protected because they are native. At least thats how the warden explained it to me.

[Snakefood]

here in BC, we aren't allowed to keep ANY species of Garter, regardless whether it's native or not....kinda sucks;(

[exwizard]

As I stated before, to the best of my knowledge, no native snake of any kind are legal to keep here. No bullsnakes, no hognoses, nothing, even if they were c/b. I understand why we cant catch and keep wild native snakes but c/b?? That makes no sense at all to me. Funny thing is that Ive never seen a bullsnake in person here ever and I dont think anyone has in a long time. I know the DNR does not make these laws. They only enforce them so Im thinking that these laws were written in such convoluted ways by ignoatant legislators who dont know what theyre talking about, but thats just my opinion of course.

[red ink]

As I stated before, to the best of my knowledge, no native snake of any kind are legal to keep here. No bullsnakes, no hognoses, nothing, even if they were c/b. I understand why we cant catch and keep wild native snakes but c/b?? That makes no sense at all to me. Funny thing is that Ive never seen a bullsnake in person here ever and I dont think anyone has in a long time. I know the DNR does not make these laws. They only enforce them so Im thinking that these laws were written in such convoluted ways by ignoatant legislators who dont know what theyre talking about, but thats just my opinion of course.

If you ask the wildlife authorities, you would probably get an answer that states it's in protection of the native wildlife from pathogens in captive specimens in the case of escapees...

Granted there are plenty of pathogens out there that can be spread to wild populations even if they are not native to the area from escaped captives... but the first point may be their reasoning.

Another could be the whole morph mentality of the "captive" reptile industry... Morphs of native animals excaping and breeding with endemic population changes the characteristics of the wild snakes.

If you really want to find out ask I suppose...

[Lankyrob]

Also if you have the snake in your house how do the authorities know whether it is cb or wc? Easier to ban completely then either way they can act on your ownership.

[exwizard]

Its easy enough to get bills of sale when buying c/b snakes but thats not even taken into consideration. No, Ill just live with it. Besides my more exotic snakes from Indonesia, Madagascar and Brazil are more appealing to me anyway.

[Mose]

I agree with Rob - it's probably easier from an enforcement standpoint to ban native species altogether rather than have to investigate to determine on a case by case basis if one is WC or CB. That would be a nightmare.

Another could be the whole morph mentality of the "captive" reptile industry... Morphs of native animals excaping and breeding with endemic population changes the characteristics of the wild snakes.

A while back on another forum, a member from the east coast near the northern range for wild cornsnakes was looking for a morph corn to buy. In her state, it was illegal to own native snakes, including wildtype corns, but morphs were okay because the authorities could easily identify them as CB! Evidently the lawmakers of that state weren't too concerned about the possibility of CB morphs escaping and mucking up the local gene pool. LOL

[exwizard]

I agree with Rob - it's probably easier from an enforcement standpoint to ban native species altogether rather than have to investigate to determine on a case by case basis if one is WC or CB. That would be a nightmare.



A while back on another forum, a member from the east coast near the northern range for wild cornsnakes was looking for a morph corn to buy. In her state, it was illegal to own native snakes, including wildtype corns, but morphs were okay because the authorities could easily identify them as CB! Evidently the lawmakers of that state weren't too concerned about the possibility of CB morphs escaping and mucking up the local gene pool. LOL

Very interesting...

[zaroba]

I wouldn't doubt that states banning ownership of native snakes was something PETA was behind too seeing how obsessed they are with supporting any snake ban bills. Just a small step in their long term goal.

[exwizard]

I wouldn't doubt that states banning ownership of native snakes was something PETA was behind too seeing how obsessed they are with supporting any snake ban bills. Just a small step in their long term goal.Makes sense to me.

[parseltongue]

my great grandpa caught a few kingsnakes trying to eat his chicken eggs.we took them in but could only keep two at a time so we let the others go in my grandmas yard if we hadnt saved them they would have been killed.

[Lankyrob]

my great grandpa caught a few kingsnakes trying to eat his chicken eggs.we took them in but could only keep two at a time so we let the others go in my grandmas yard if we hadnt saved them they would have been killed.

If you let some go why not let them all go?

[Valvaren]

my great grandpa caught a few kingsnakes trying to eat his chicken eggs.we took them in but could only keep two at a time so we let the others go in my grandmas yard if we hadnt saved them they would have been killed.


If you had relocated them they also would have been saved.

[Charlie64]

Nothing wrong with WC snakes as long as you care for em.

People seem to think it's wrong, and buy captive bred snakes.
But by buying CB's you just support people to go catch more wild ones as breeders.
One's just as bad as the other...

[shaunyboy]

Nothing wrong with WC snakes as long as you care for em.

People seem to think it's wrong, and buy captive bred snakes.
But by buying CB's you just support people to go catch more wild ones as breeders.
One's just as bad as the other...

^^^^^
i disagree with this 100%


Australia has banned export of reptiles since 1982

yet there are more than enough carpet pythons outside Australia,so there is no need to go out and catch wild snakes

imo if there has not been any carpet pythons taken from the wild for export in the last 30 years,then as long as theres captive breds out there,then theres no need to keep taking from the wild

so buying captive bred is in NO WAY the same thing mate...!!

yes in the very begining there would have been an amount taken from the wild,but after that there would be no need to keep doing it

imo,the easiest way to damage wild stock is.....

to think just grabbing as many as you want from the wild is ok

cheers shaun

[Charlie64]

They do it with ball pythons all the time. They see something neat, like a morph, in the wild then breeders pay top dollar for em.
Carpet's is one species. I wanted an asian vine snake, guess where it came from? The wild. They don't breed well in captivity.
Should we only own snakes that are mass produced in farms for consumers? I find mass breeding much more of an atrocity than collecting a wild specimen.
Then again. Opinions are like @holes. rofl

[exwizard]

If its captive bred it shd never be released. If its wild it shd remain wild.

[exwizard]

^^^^^
i disagree with this 100%


Australia has banned export of reptiles since 1982

yet there are more than enough carpet pythons outside Australia,so there is no need to go out and catch wild snakes

imo if there has not been any carpet pythons taken from the wild for export in the last 30 years,then as long as theres captive breds out there,then theres no need to keep taking from the wild

so buying captive bred is in NO WAY the same thing mate...!!

yes in the very begining there would have been an amount taken from the wild,but after that there would be no need to keep doing it

imo,the easiest way to damage wild stock is.....

to think just grabbing as many as you want from the wild is ok

cheers shaun
Yup yup yup :)

[Lankyrob]

If its captive bred it shd never be released. If its wild it shd remain wild.

Couldnt agree more :)

[StudentoReptile]

The only time that wild animals should be kept are for short term purposes:
1. Rehabilitation. A while back one of my cats kept catching baby garter snakes, so I took them in so their injuries could heal and then returned them to nature, away from the house and cat.
2. Relocation. I've found Box turtles in places where housing developments were going up, moved them to a large park. Same with snakes from my neighborhood due to kids that insist on killing them.
3. Education/Research. Take in a tadpole, watch it morph into a frog, release it. Catch a snake, weigh it, measure it, study it, release it.

The only time a wild animal should be kept in captivity forever is if it is no longer able to survive in the wild due to injury.

I generally agree with this.

I know there could be exceptions to the rule when we're talking about protected/endangered species that need dedicated hobbyists to focus efforts on breeding those species for conservation efforts, or possibly if there is a new locality to be cultivated, and a few choice wild specimens can be collected for the same purpose. But I think its up to responsible herp enthusiasts and wildlife officials to work together on those cases to ensure there is no over-collecting, etc.

For instance, if some new weird locality of mountain kingsnake is discovered, and the species is protected throughout most of its range, I think if enough dedicated hobbyists rallied together and got involved with the right authorities, they could work toward successfully getting that particular locality into the captive trade without opening it up where any Joe could go out and collect the snakes by the bagload.

[homocapra]

^^^^^
i disagree with this 100%


Australia has banned export of reptiles since 1982

yet there are more than enough carpet pythons outside Australia,so there is no need to go out and catch wild snakes

imo if there has not been any carpet pythons taken from the wild for export in the last 30 years,then as long as theres captive breds out there,then theres no need to keep taking from the wild

so buying captive bred is in NO WAY the same thing mate...!!

yes in the very begining there would have been an amount taken from the wild,but after that there would be no need to keep doing it

imo,the easiest way to damage wild stock is.....

to think just grabbing as many as you want from the wild is ok

cheers shaun

I agree! Many species of animals are affected because humans take them out of the wild. Anytime an animal becomes a product, whether that be food or pet or skin/fur, whenever there's money involved for humans, the animals suffer and the wild population will eventually be impacted. Did you know that the biggest threat to wild chimpanzees, other great apes and all kinds of other animals is not habitat loss anymore, it's the commercial market for bush meat! Black rat snakes are just lucky that they aren't very colorful and it's not hip to eat them, this keeps the market small :(

[red ink]

^^^^^
i disagree with this 100%


Australia has banned export of reptiles since 1982

yet there are more than enough carpet pythons outside Australia,so there is no need to go out and catch wild snakes

imo if there has not been any carpet pythons taken from the wild for export in the last 30 years,then as long as theres captive breds out there,then theres no need to keep taking from the wild

so buying captive bred is in NO WAY the same thing mate...!!

yes in the very begining there would have been an amount taken from the wild,but after that there would be no need to keep doing it

imo,the easiest way to damage wild stock is.....

to think just grabbing as many as you want from the wild is ok

cheers shaun

Plenty of carpets get taken out of the wild for export ;)... I was passed on a website on another forum of breeders in UK stating they had Julattens. We did not even know of the Julattens back in 82, wonder how they got them :rolleyes:

Darkside of the hobby unfortunately... I actually want exports out of OZ to happen to put the mongrels out of business and whats wild stays wild.

Plus if the export happens guess what you're getting as chrissy prezies :yes:... Is it wrong for a bloke to give another bloke Diamonds for a present?