Advice on New BP Home

[TalonNC]

It's time to upgrade my BP tank from his little 20gal that can barely fit to 2 hides and his water bowl to something a little bigger. I was told a 40 Breeder was the the next(and final) step up for a BP. So i have a couple of questions.

1. What are the WxDxH of a typical 40 breeder? Does 40 Breeder mean 40Gallon tank?
2. I was at petsmart and i saw a cool ExoTerra for $179, i like the front opening (as i hate picking up my Goldie from above) Are ExoTerra' Terrariums good?
3. What's the typical Price of a 40 Breeder?


More questions may come to mind but these would help me get started in my search for a new living arrangement for my BP

[Snakefood]

^^^^ ditto^^^^

HUbby is going to build a front opening snake cabinet for my B/P's and would love to know what dimensions to make them.

Great question!!

[mykee]

OP: All of these answers can be found much quicker through Google.
In fact, I just went to Google, typed in "40 breeder" and got all the answers to your questions in under 20 seconds.
You're welcome.

Snakefood: I personally wouldn't go any larger than a 30 gallon for a ball python; more than enough size for even the largest female.

[Snakefood]

sure but if it gets answered here before I get to searching, why even better!!

[mykee]

So you're saying you would rather someone else do the legwork for you?
Lazy...;)

[Snakefood]

sometimes!! :D

But seriously, I thought this was what this forum was about, any question asked here could be answered by searching the internet. Yet, somehow, people can ask questions and get actual answers to them:p

[TalonNC]

Well i wont be building as i don't have a building bone in my body...

but really wanted to know from experienced real people here vs researchers and advertisers on google....

[Snakefood]

And if Mykee would actually ANSWER the question, you would have it from an experienced keeper!!

enter, stage left....Mykee

[Lankyrob]

Personally (tho Mykee will disagree :)) i put my current (and any future) Royals into a 4x2x2ft vivarium. :)

[Snakefood]

thx Rob!!

Besides, how can Mykee disagree when he won't answer??:p

[TalonNC]

Personally (tho Mykee will disagree :)) i put my current (and any future) Royals into a 4x2x2ft vivarium. :)

where would i find something like this or did you have to build? (i'm not a builder)

[Snakefood]

if your not a builder you can find them at certain pet stores, especially ones who specialize in reptiles. or on-line.

they are no-where near cheap!!

[Lankyrob]

My local reptile shop owners dad is a cabinet maker, who retired but now spends his days making custom size vivs :) A 4x2x2 costs about £200-£250 here :)

[mykee]

The pressure!!!!

Ok, some keepers keep their reptiles in larger enclosures (i.e. Lanky) and if they provide enough hides and perfect husbandry, they can work out perfectly. I personally keep my ball pythons in Rubbermaids, but when you have over 120, space is an issue.
Many breeders keep their ball pythons in the underbed Rubbermaids (16X33X6 which is the same floor space as a 30-33 gallon aquarium.
Whatever works for you, I refuse to debate this issue, I could honestly care less about what type of enclosure YOU use, all MY ball pythons are happy how they live.
Keep in mind husbandry is the primary concern with any new enclosure.

[lady_bug87]

So you're saying you would rather someone else do the legwork for you?
Lazy...;)

thank you! You just settled an argument I've been having with my husband you are the best.

[Lankyrob]

The pressure!!!!

Ok, some keepers keep their reptiles in larger enclosures (i.e. Lanky) and if they provide enough hides and perfect husbandry, they can work out perfectly. I personally keep my ball pythons in Rubbermaids, but when you have over 120, space is an issue.
Many breeders keep their ball pythons in the underbed Rubbermaids (16X33X6 which is the same floor space as a 30-33 gallon aquarium.
Whatever works for you, I refuse to debate this issue, I could honestly care less about what type of enclosure YOU use, all MY ball pythons are happy how they live.
Keep in mind husbandry is the primary concern with any new enclosure.

Couldnt agree more with any part of this :)

Having no interest or intention of ever breeding all my snakes are pets and i like A) giving them the biggest space practical and B) having them all out on display. I totally understand why breeders use tubs and racks and have no argument with those that do - just not for me :)

[Snakefood]

thanks Mykee:D:D:D

[jaleely]

I agree with lankyrob as i'm not a breeder.

But mykee...you "could" care less? tisk tisk!! Well if that's the case, we SHOULD debate it more....muwhaha!

Anyway...was talking to a sand boa breeder the other day about racks. I could see using a rack for a few of my snakes that don't seem to care about having room. When provided with it, they just pick a spot and stay there. However, i do have a few (of each species for both cases) where they roam around, crawl on branches....i even have one of my royals that loves to hang on a branch like he thinks he's an arboreal. Go figure!
If you only plan on having a few snakes though, i say go for the show and give them space to move around and be looked at.

[Gungirl]

The only advice I will give is no matter the size of the enclosure it is easier and makes the snake happier 99% of the time to not be kept in a glass fish tank. If you can get your hands on a wooden viv or even a plastic tub your snake will typically be calmer and more willing to eat. However if you have to use a glass tank a 30-40 gallon is fine just use fabric or paint and cover 3 sides of the glass to offer security and also cover most of your screen top to control humidity. A 40 gallon is more than enough room for a Royal.

[jarich]

Wow, Mykee you actually gave some advice AND almost made it an entire post without spouting bile. You must be tired! ;)

Like Rob mentioned, depending on your goal, and level of experience, there are different recommended set ups. If you plan on having lots, or don't have a lot of time or motivation to spend on each enclosure, then go smaller (like a 30 gallon tub or even less). If what you want is a show enclosure or you have the time to set up and clean a more elaborate enclosure, then go as big as you want. I have mine in a a 90 gallon, and it uses every inch of that. And that includes the branches/vertical space too.

[mykee]

Jaleely, I keep all of my sand boa males in shoebox Rubbermaids their entire lives and females until they are about 200 grams. The females get bumped up to #2221 Rubbermaids (16X23X6) after 200g.

[USMCgunner11]

I agree on the 4x2x2 if you can afford the space. Anything larger is a waste. You can go smaller but your snake will benefit in an enclosure of that size. To answer your question about Exo-Terra tanks, I wouldn't bother with them. I abandoned all-glass tanks a long time ago and won't go back. They are more difficult to heat and maintain humidity in. A plastic or wood enclosure is what you should be looking at.

You can build one yourself which doesn't require much. You could get "how to" directions from google or this site. Or a local reptile shop should stock something like that. My local shop carries decent quality melamine tanks for about $175.

[infernalis]

I use a 55 gallon tank with a plywood top, but then again, I heat the whole room because of all the other animals, so what works for one person, may not work for another.

[mykee]

"I agree on the 4x2x2 if you can afford the space. Anything larger is a waste. You can go smaller but your snake will benefit in an enclosure of that size."

Lol!
"Benefit" how?

Live longer?
Eat better?
Breed more prolifically?
Produce more eggs?
Be "happier"?
Smile more?
Be less aggressive?

Please explain, I'm sitting on pins and needles.

[jarich]

Not that Im inclined to care where you sit, Mykee, but I think Ill try to field your sarcasm here. The problem is, Im not sure you'd understand. Do you know what an adrenal gland is? Do you know the basics of developmental neurobiology? How about the importance and function of corticosteroids?

Lets simplify. If someone were to kidnap you, would you prefer they locked you in just the bathroom or locked you in your house with access to all the rooms? If just locked in your tiny bathroom you could still eat, sleep, reproduce and live a relatively long time. I bet, however, that you would chose to have the run of the larger space to stretch your legs and have at least some small semblance of variety, enrichment and exercise.

History is full of people who thought that animals only needed this or that limited scope. Pick up a book and look at the zoo research going on presently. Time and time again we are finding that our arrogance in husbandry and our lack of further understanding is hindering the full development of nearly all animals in captivity. The ones we don't know about are usually just the ones who haven't been studied enough yet. Your local zoo probably has given prozac to its bears, or anti depressants to the marmosets, or enclosure enrichment to the monitor lizards. How long do you think its going to be until we smarten up and see that this applies to all animals?

[USMCgunner11]

I'm glad you beat me to it with that analogy because that is exactly where I was headed. An inmate may survive in a small cell with the basic necessities but is that a healthy way to live? I think not. Sure they can survive with less but that doesn't mean that they enjoy it that way

[mykee]

LOL!!!
Are you two actually comparing a human to a reptilian brain?!

[USMCgunner11]

Just providing you with an analogy. We aren't stating that they experience the world the same way we do. Just that they arent completely apathetic to the environment we choose to provide them. If you cannot understand these comparisons and continue to focus on the wrong points please let us know, I'll have my daughter draw a diagram for you with her crayons.

[Lankyrob]

Snakes need heat, food, water and security anything else in their enclosure is more for our benefit than theirs.

[Snakefood]

ya, sorry I'm going with Mykee and Rob here. Your daughter can draw all the diagrams she wants to and it won't change the fact that snakes have what is called the primal brain and that's it.

So long as they have a place where they feel safe, have a food source and the correct conditions for heat and humidity, they are good. They don't have the capacity to care or think about anything else.

The example given about the zoos is a good one, were we talking about other mammals, who have the "mammalian" brain. They do have the parts of the brain that CAN think about being caged, therefore they can be affected BY captivity.

In the "primal" brain, it is all instinct. "fight or flight" ,"eat or be eaten", "find a safe, warm place to hide"

[exwizard]

Couldnt agree more with any part of this :)

Having no interest or intention of ever breeding all my snakes are pets and i like A) giving them the biggest space practical and B) having them all out on display. I totally understand why breeders use tubs and racks and have no argument with those that do - just not for me :)

Plus some of us use racks even for our pets and yeah, space is an issue. I do spend time with them pulling them out frequently and handling them regularly and they seem quite content with their living arrangements :) I think vivs look great and if it were possible, Id do it but atm thats not possible for me.

I know I dont have any BPs but the same thing applies to all species of snakes.

[jarich]

LOL!!!
Are you two actually comparing a human to a reptilian brain?!

Some more than others, Mykee, some more than others.

And Gunner11's comments were well put. Appreciate the response there.

As for the debate between tubs and larger enclosures, again it is down to the keeper on what their goal and situation is. Im not saying that you are torturing your snake by keeping them in a tub. I know that size is always a concern. I am saying that I think they will benefit from a larger enclosure if that is an option.

As for my zoo examples, actually no, they were not all mammals. Lizards are actually being shown to benefit from cage enrichment as well. This is not my opinion folks, these are scientific studies done with control groups. What Im telling you is that you need to read up on this a little more before assuming you just have a big dumb animal in a cage. I used those examples with things like bears and other mammals because people used to say the same things about them as you are saying about snakes, and for all the same justifications.

Snakefood, it seems like you have some understanding of neuroanatomy. You're somewhat right in saying that snakes only have a 'primal' or derived brain. However, the fact that they do not have any of the more extensive cortex or neocortex does not negate the fact that these animals, like all animals, go through developmental stages. Now, if you know anything about neural development, you know that stimulation is key to healthy brain tissue. By raising them their entire life in a tiny tub with no stimulation, how exactly do you think that development is fostered? Do you think the stimulation required to keep development progressing is achieved in that tub? Or do you think, like I do, that animal is probably developmentally challenged as a result. It may feel safe, it is fed, it will most likely reproduce. So from all outward appearances, it is the same. However, I have a feeling it is also the equivalent of a stunted, handicapped snake.

Again, do what you like. Like all husbandry, it is dictated by the keeper and not the animal. Keeping them in small tubs is not going to keep them from reproducing or whatever else you might want. But don't be so definitive in telling me it doesn't have any effect, or that a nice big enclosure is for my benefit only. Just because you can't see it, or don't know about it, doesn't make it true.

[Snakefood]

Jarich:

I personally have both a rack system and larger "viv-like" enclosures. Those snakes that are in tubs do get out more (they explore my bed, couch,ect..) once the kiddo is in bed!!

I also beleive that it has alot to do with the species of snake we're discussing. example:

Corn snakes are a more active snake, in the wild they can and do "hunt" and "track" thier prey, so developmental stimulation may be more important to them than say a B/P, who, even in the wild usually sits in one spot, waits for something appetizing to come by and strikes.

So I can see where your coming from as it pertains to certain species who are more active. but for those who would sit curled in the same safe spot, and have a very small personal "territory" would not be unusually affected by having a smaller environment in captivity.

Also, in response to the zoo thing, many reptiles have been proven to have more than just the "primal" brain and so your analogy stands as far as they are concerned. Which is why Wayne has gone to the extents he has on his sav enclosure. snakes however have been proven to only have the primal brain. Like you said that does not definitively prove that captivity doesn't affect them in any way, however studies have also been done on longevity in captivity vs the wild, and when proper care and attention has been given, the lifespan always increases in captivity, so we can't be completely on the wrong track!!

At least we're not as far off as when we thought the world was flat!!!LOL

[jarich]

Too right! And I agree, with the proper care these animals can live much longer than is normal in the wild. Again, Im not saying that tubs are torture or anything like that. I just get a little frustrated when people say that tiny little tubs are the only way to go and everything else is useless.

Im surprised to hear you say that you think BP are not an active snake in the wild though. They do not only ambush prey. They are active hunters in the wild and are vastly invasive as a species. They follow their prey species, they do not merely sit in burrows and wait endlessly. Ambush hunting is one way they hunt, yes, but not the only way.

[Lankyrob]

Too right! And I agree, with the proper care these animals can live much longer than is normal in the wild. Again, Im not saying that tubs are torture or anything like that. I just get a little frustrated when people say that tiny little tubs are the only way to go and everything else is useless.

Im surprised to hear you say that you think BP are not an active snake in the wild though. They do not only ambush prey. They are active hunters in the wild and are vastly invasive as a species. They follow their prey species, they do not merely sit in burrows and wait endlessly. Ambush hunting is one way they hunt, yes, but not the only way.


I dont believe anyone on this thread has said this at any point? I even went back and scanned through all the posts, so if i missed it please show me :)

[Snakefood]

true, but the point I was trying to make is they are a way less active snake than corns. I wasn't trying to say that's the only way they hunt, just on average they would rather "ambush" than stalk, especially if they have found a nice safe place where prey comes by often.

Also remember I am just learning my B/P stuff!! I only have 1 and have only had him for a month, other than that I am experienced in corns. have successfully kept an iguana into her 20's and had 2 anoles as a kid. so thats my reptile "experience", however I love to read alot about my chosen species and of course get lots of good information and advice from all you good people.

[jarich]

No you're absolutely right Rob, nothing like that on this thread. Sorry for making it seem like that was from anyone here. I was more referring to another discussion I was having with some breeders on a different forum. As you know, its an old debate done many times.

[jarich]

true, but the point I was trying to make is they are a way less active snake than corns. I wasn't trying to say that's the only way they hunt, just on average they would rather "ambush" than stalk, especially if they have found a nice safe place where prey comes by often.

Also remember I am just learning my B/P stuff!! I only have 1 and have only had him for a month, other than that I am experienced in corns. have successfully kept an iguana into her 20's and had 2 anoles as a kid. so thats my reptile "experience", however I love to read alot about my chosen species and of course get lots of good information and advice from all you good people.

Ya, I hear you, but keep in mind that corns are generally considered diurnal, while BP are nocturnal. So a lot of that activity difference is largely just due to when you may be around to see it.

Its also great that you enjoy reading so much, a lot of experienced people could do more of that. Experience is very important obviously, but so is scientific knowledge. The two together is essential in my opinion. ;)

[Snakefood]

Ya, I hear you, but keep in mind that corns are generally considered diurnal, while BP are nocturnal. So a lot of that activity difference is largely just due to when you may be around to see it.

Its also great that you enjoy reading so much, a lot of experienced people could do more of that. Experience is very important obviously, but so is scientific knowledge. The two together is essential in my opinion. ;)

couldn't agree more!!;)

[TalonNC]

I want to apologize as i didn't realize my little question would stir up such debate...

If only you all could of seen my little guy last night...he was knocking the thermostat probe against the side of his tank which i usual decipher as "I want out..to roam" so i put him on the couch and he was all over the place...he was really hyper for some odd reason i moved him to my bed and he couldn't sit still (except for 60secs of telescoping)..

so my opinion on the matter ..is He is content living in a phone booth...but on the nights he wants to roam...he wants the room to do so... so it's one of those cases where he Rather have it and not need it ...then need it and not have it...kinda like insurance and condoms.

Thank you for all the advice...i think I'm gonna think long and hard about the exo terra. My BP is not to be tucked away in a bin or tub...He is the only one i ever plan to have. and prefer to be able to see him daily.

[Lankyrob]

I want to apologize as i didn't realize my little question would stir up such debate...
.


Thats what a forum is!! :) Lots of people with a joint interest but different opinions and experience sharing these things - hopefully in a way where the discussion can get passionate but not out of hand.

A good debate is good for all, its when it descends into pettyness and name calling that it is pathetic and silly :)

[Snakefood]

^^^ what Rob said.^^^ Debate is fine, and this thread has stayed fairly good. some threads get out of hand with name calling and insults, this one hasn't, so......

It's all good!!

[jarich]

I want to apologize as i didn't realize my little question would stir up such debate...

Thank you for all the advice...i think I'm gonna think long and hard about the exo terra. My BP is not to be tucked away in a bin or tub...He is the only one i ever plan to have. and prefer to be able to see him daily.

Ya, please don't ever apologize for that. The most interesting conversations are the ones that stir up debate!