Snuggling Kings...

[Jlassiter]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2481.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2483.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2485.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2486.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2487.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2489.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2491.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2493.jpg

[Jlassiter]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2498.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2502.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/jlassiter/MEXICANA/IMG_2506.jpg

[hylia]

Wow, great pictures. You have some wicked snakes. I love the look on the faces of the last two, lol.

[Jlassiter]

Wow, great pictures. You have some wicked snakes. I love the look on the faces of the last two, lol.

Thanks...the last two look like a couple of teenagers getting busted...LOL

[hylia]

Thanks...the last two look like a couple of teenagers getting busted...LOL

Yeah, that's exactly the impression I got too, lol!

[a153fish]

Nice series of shots!

[Jlassiter]

Thanks Jorge...

[Trollbie]

Jellie....

[Kingsnakechris]

Your kings don't try to eat each other? Or are these just a few quick pics? Either way amazing looking kings!

[Jlassiter]

Chris...
My kings don't try to eat each other.....
I house my kingsnakes together in breeding pairs or trios.....
Never two males in one enclosure.....
I have no cannibalism issues....Plus mexicana and montane kings are far less cannibalistic.

The best advice I can give to someone without a great deal of experience with kings is to NOT house them together.

[Trollbie]

Chris...
My kings don't try to eat each other.....
I house my kingsnakes together in breeding pairs or trios.....
Never two males in one enclosure.....
I have no cannibalism issues....Plus mexicana and montane kings are far less cannibalistic.

The best advice I can give to someone without a great deal of experience with kings is to NOT house them together.

How do you get them to not each other? Do you house your milks together too?

[Kingsnakechris]

Yeah I don't have to much experience but I just introduce my female to my males tub and watch for an hour or so then after I'm sure they had a lock it's back to their own enclosures

[Terranaut]

My king would eat another I am sure. He tries to eat my hand after I have handled another snake so I assume he would go right to town on another snake.
Nice looking kings!!!

[Kingsnakechris]

My king would eat another I am sure. He tries to eat my hand after I have handled another snake so I assume he would go right to town on another snake.
Nice looking kings!!!

Have you ever tried breeding him?

[Terranaut]

No and I probably won't. He is a goini king and there is a local breeder here in town.
I have posted about his psyco feeding response on here before. Maybe he would be ok with a female but like I said he is nuts and tries to eat anything that moves on feeding day. He sometimes strikes out from under his substrate hitting the glass on his enclosure just when I walk by. I feed him well and he is still a nut. This is actually my favorite thing about him. Crazy snake!!! Love it!!

[a153fish]

Yeah I don't have to much experience but I just introduce my female to my males tub and watch for an hour or so then after I'm sure they had a lock it's back to their own enclosures

Yeah John is right. Mexicana, and Pyros, are not the same as the Common kings, like the Cali, or the Florida, or the Chain, or the Speckled. You get the idea, lol. They can be housed together but you have to know what your doing, and even then there is always a risk of canibolism. I have all my florida Kings together in breeding groups and pairs. But I know what the risk is.

[Jlassiter]

Yeah I don't have to much experience but I just introduce my female to my males tub and watch for an hour or so then after I'm sure they had a lock it's back to their own enclosures


Most cannibalistic snake deaths are due to the snakes having never seen each other before......If they "know" each other attacks will not occur.....

Again...this is just the way I do it and I am not telling anyone else they should.

I do not keep hatchling to yearling snakes together. These snakes are growing and learning. They will try to kill/eat anything that moves.

By their second winter I cool the brumation chamber down to 50F. When the kings clear their stomachs I place them in the chamber for a day then I place them together. A king will not want to eat a very large meal (another snake) when temps are 50F.

The pairs and trios are never separated after they are introduced that second winter....Some kings grow slower and will not be paired up until the third winter.....

Many kingsnake breeders do this...contrary to the internet caresheets and TFH books' warnings......Bob Applegate, Frank Retes, European breeders, myself and numerous others........

There's more than one way to achieve your desired goals while keeping these captives.......And this is how I do......

The only time I had a female king kill a male king was back in the late 90s when I did not keep them together. After that I was way more careful and watched everything closely. In the last 3 years or so, after applying some husbandry techniques I started co-habitating them.......

[Trollbie]

Do snakes remember their siblings?

[Jlassiter]

No and I probably won't. He is a goini king and there is a local breeder here in town.
I have posted about his psyco feeding response on here before. Maybe he would be ok with a female but like I said he is nuts and tries to eat anything that moves on feeding day. He sometimes strikes out from under his substrate hitting the glass on his enclosure just when I walk by. I feed him well and he is still a nut. This is actually my favorite thing about him. Crazy snake!!! Love it!!


Here's what I see in your reply.....

"feeding day"

I think your snake is hungry in between YOUR feeding days.
Feed him on his feeding days.....

If your snake is on the cool side of his enclosure he will feed.....

And how much do you feed it? I'd try 3 or 4 small adult mice on an adult goini....

[Jlassiter]

Do snakes remember their siblings?


I don't know if there are any studies done on this or how the studies can be done, but I breed siblings together all the time........lol

They do hatch at different times and leave the nest....I don't think siblings ever "know" one another........Inbreeding occurs in nature all the time....especially with isolate populations.....

[Trollbie]

I ask because the pet store still has her brother :)

[Trollbie]

Also, I have a snuggly milk snake today :D
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll256/Czechish/6c5e82f6.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll256/Czechish/000d41c2.jpg

[Terranaut]

Here's what I see in your reply.....

"feeding day"

I think your snake is hungry in between YOUR feeding days.
Feed him on his feeding days.....

If your snake is on the cool side of his enclosure he will feed.....

And how much do you feed it? I'd try 3 or 4 small adult mice on an adult goini....

He eats every Sunday. He gets a rat pup the size of about 3 mice. He 99% of the time poops the day before. The person I got him from had been feeding him 2 adult mice once a week for more than 5 yrs and I upped it by switching to rats. He didn't shed once the first 5 months I had him but after switching him to rats he sheds about every 12 weeks. Honnestly he is well taken care of and just a freak. Like I said this is not a bad quality in my mind. He is just being a king!!

[Jlassiter]

K...cool.....

[Trollbie]

So if the snake is on the cool side, I should try feeding?

Penelope is always all over the place. She goes back and forth between her warm hide and her cool hide, and sometimes she's buried in the aspen. She changes positions and places pretty often.

[Jlassiter]

So if the snake is on the cool side, I should try feeding?

Penelope is always all over the place. She goes back and forth between her warm hide and her cool hide, and sometimes she's buried in the aspen. She changes positions and places pretty often.

Pay attention to your feeding schedule and what she is doing to see the connection between thermalregulating....

Only if you have a good thermal gradient........90F hot side.....Room temp (72F) cool side........kings use the hot side to digest their meals and for other bodily functions.
With a good setup you can see if your king is digesting or conserving. They are conserving when on the cool side and will take a meal.....This is not "powerfeeding" it is just the optimal way in my opinion.

You will see smaller snakes that eat smaller prey digest their prey more quickly.....Larger snakes that do not have much growth left use their meals to sustain, not grow...Plus their prey items are larger and take longer to digest.....They typically want to eat weekly..sometimes more, sometimes less.......

[Trollbie]

I've been feeding her one adult mouse once a week. A153fish suggested I feed her more than one because she's very active, but since she shed, it seems like she's calmer. I'm sure she's still active, but I don't see it as much. (probably because I'm not home much :( ) So since she seems calmer, I haven't tried feeding her more than one yet.

The ~2 days after she eats she isn't very active and spends most of her time in her warm hide, but last time I went to pick her up on the third day after she ate, she still had a significant bulge. But she was in her cool side hide. Her cool side is unfortunately in the 60s, because my room is cold, but her warm side is around 85-90 and the middle of the tank is around 70. But she still likes to be on the very cool end sometimes.

Is it horrible that her cool end is less than 70? The days are getting warmer here, so my room is gonna be warmer too. I just don't get any house heat in my room.

[Kingsnakechris]

Thank you for the info! I really appreciate it! I'm new to breeding and every bit of information is incredibly helpful. So just out of curiosity, my female cal kings enclosure s right next to my males enclosure, would you say that constitutes as them "getting to know each other? I only ask because it makes sense ( if that makes sense..lol). Also how important is brumation? The person I bought these guys from said she cooled the male but the female wasn't quite big enough to breed this season, I have been putting weight on her for awhile now and would like to attempt a shot this season but not b putting either of my snakes at risk. Could they still breed without brumation??

[Jlassiter]

I've been feeding her one adult mouse once a week. A153fish suggested I feed her more than one because she's very active, but since she shed, it seems like she's calmer. I'm sure she's still active, but I don't see it as much. (probably because I'm not home much :( ) So since she seems calmer, I haven't tried feeding her more than one yet.

The ~2 days after she eats she isn't very active and spends most of her time in her warm hide, but last time I went to pick her up on the third day after she ate, she still had a significant bulge. But she was in her cool side hide. Her cool side is unfortunately in the 60s, because my room is cold, but her warm side is around 85-90 and the middle of the tank is around 70. But she still likes to be on the very cool end sometimes.

Is it horrible that her cool end is less than 70? The days are getting warmer here, so my room is gonna be warmer too. I just don't get any house heat in my room.


It is not terrible that the cool side is that cool....
I wish I could achieve 60s on the cool side and 90s on the hot side.....

How deep is the substrate (Aspen?)
Provide a shoebox size container full of moist sphagnum moss too.....set it in the enclosure so that part is on the hot side and the rest on the cool side.......try feeding her when she is on the cool side for a period of time......

[Jlassiter]

Thank you for the info! I really appreciate it! I'm new to breeding and every bit of information is incredibly helpful. So just out of curiosity, my female cal kings enclosure s right next to my males enclosure, would you say that constitutes as them "getting to know each other? I only ask because it makes sense ( if that makes sense..lol). Also how important is brumation? The person I bought these guys from said she cooled the male but the female wasn't quite big enough to breed this season, I have been putting weight on her for awhile now and would like to attempt a shot this season but not b putting either of my snakes at risk. Could they still breed without brumation??

Calkings can and will breed without a true brumation, but they still need a period of conservation to produce viable sperm and follicles.
I would try it but be very careful as they do not "know" one another by just being next to each other.......and since the female is larger than the male she might see the male as a meal......

[Trollbie]

It is not terrible that the cool side is that cool....
I wish I could achieve 60s on the cool side and 90s on the hot side.....

How deep is the substrate (Aspen?)
Provide a shoebox size container full of moist sphagnum moss too.....set it in the enclosure so that part is on the hot side and the rest on the cool side.......try feeding her when she is on the cool side for a period of time......

The aspen varies between 0.5-2 in. Depending on how much she messes around in it lol.

I don't about the moss... The humidity is above 60% already. Which is already kinda too high for her as far as I know.

[Trollbie]

This is her set up.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll256/Czechish/f592c0a0.jpg

[Kingsnakechris]

Calkings can and will breed without a true brumation, but they still need a period of conservation to produce viable sperm and follicles.
I would try it but be very careful as they do not "know" one another by just being next to each other.......and since the female is larger than the male she might see the male as a meal......

my female is smaller then the male. my fault on that. and what does a period of conservation mean??

[Kingsnakechris]

im pretty sure my male is ready. he never seems to stop "searching" and hes off feed right now as well. i just wasnt sure if i could attempt it because i didnt "brumate" my female...

[Jlassiter]

The aspen varies between 0.5-2 in. Depending on how much she messes around in it lol.

I don't about the moss... The humidity is above 60% already. Which is already kinda too high for her as far as I know.


Who said that is too high?
If there is a humidity gradient your snake will let you know what is good.....
If there is 90% humidity in one area and 10% in another it will choose what it wants/needs.......

Humidity should be like temperatures........
If provided a wide range of both you'll have what the snake wants covered.....

BTW...I'd deepen the Aspen to 3 to 4 inches...but you may not like not seeing your hiding king.
Why do kings hide?
Are they hiding from you/predators?
maybe but that is not the ONLY reason they hide

...they are also hiding to escape the air itself. Kings/Milks will dehydrate easily so they find the tightest hide they can to protect the surface area of their skin from contacting the dry air.......

[Trollbie]

Who said that is too high?
If there is a humidity gradient your snake will let you know what is good.....
If there is 90% humidity in one area and 10% in another it will choose what it wants/needs.......

Humidity should be like temperatures........
If provided a wide range of both you'll have what the snake wants covered.....

BTW...I'd deepen the Aspen to 3 to 4 inches...but you may not like not seeing your hiding king.
Why do kings hide?
Are they hiding from you/predators?
maybe but that is not the ONLY reason they hide

...they are also hiding to escape the air itself. Kings/Milks will dehydrate easily so they find the tightest hide they can to protect the surface area of their skin from contacting the dry air.......

Because everything I ever read about milks said that their humidity range is 40-60%? I wasn't worried about it because I know milks are hardy snakes, but I didn't think I needed to add more. I guess I can put some moss in her Repti shelter.

I can add more aspen. I'm not worried about not seeing her because she doesn't just hide all the time. She actually doesn't hide very much.

[Jlassiter]

my female is smaller then the male. my fault on that. and what does a period of conservation mean??

A period of conservation is achieved mainly by lower temps but some have achieved this with a light cycle. Getting them in tune with the seasons outside seems to work with some Southern Lampropeltis.......

Conservation is when the snake's metabolism is slowed or shut down...
When it is triggered again a male will start producing viable sperm....
Some believe that males need brumation for breeding but females do not....the only reason those folks brumate their females is so they will be on the same cycle as the male......

It is easier for me with a large collection to just brumate them all the same....

[Jlassiter]

im pretty sure my male is ready. he never seems to stop "searching" and hes off feed right now as well. i just wasnt sure if i could attempt it because i didnt "brumate" my female...

I'd try it....but you may have missed the window of opportunity.......
Once you learn how to palpate a female to see if it ovulating you can pair them up at the right time.....
Or you can house them together through brumation next season and never miss that window......lol

[Kingsnakechris]

Ok, I'm new to this so thank you for bearing with me through all my questions

[Kingsnakechris]

I'd try it....but you may have missed the window of opportunity.......
Once you learn how to palpate a female to see if it ovulating you can pair them up at the right time.....
Or you can house them together through brumation next season and never miss that window......lol

Lol looks like I'm waiting till next season. I'd rather be safe then sorry..

[Jlassiter]

Because everything I ever read about milks said that their humidity range is 40-60%? I wasn't worried about it because I know milks are hardy snakes, but I didn't think I needed to add more. I guess I can put some moss in her Repti shelter.

I can add more aspen. I'm not worried about not seeing her because she doesn't just hide all the time. She actually doesn't hide very much.


Does she cruise her cage at night?
If so, she's looking for food.......or a mate......or the right temps.....or the right humidity........

And you don't need to add MORE humidity....
You just need to provide a humidity gradient........
A spot where it is humid and the rest of the cage can be the same as the room humidity.......deep aspen will isolate areas of low humidity....
If given all the choices/options it will choose what it wants.......
Us as keepers should provide that for our captives......There are simpler ways but they aren't optimal in my opinion.......

Again....no one has to do it my way.....
Take all the information you read or hear and apply what you want to see what works....The trick is seeing how it affects your captive.....

[Jlassiter]

This is her set up.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll256/Czechish/f592c0a0.jpg


A HA!!!!!
get rid of that light....It is drying the air.....Lampros need no supplemental lighting.......
Use a heat pad, heat tape or heat cable.....

[Trollbie]

Does she cruise her cage at night?
If so, she's looking for food.......or a mate......or the right temps.....or the right humidity........

And you don't need to add MORE humidity....
You just need to provide a humidity gradient........
A spot where it is humid and the rest of the cage can be the same as the room humidity.......deep aspen will isolate areas of low humidity....
If given all the choices/options it will choose what it wants.......
Us as keepers should provide that for our captives......There are simpler ways but they aren't optimal in my opinion.......

Again....no one has to do it my way.....
Take all the information you read or hear and apply what you want to see what works....The trick is seeing how it affects your captive.....

It seems to me that she's more active during the day. Sometimes she will cruise back and forth along the front wall of the tank for hours, especially when I'm around. She'd do it even after feeding. The people I got her from said she's always been like that.
When she's active and "cruising" around, and I go pick her up, most of the time she reaches for my arm as if she actually wants to come out. But 100% of the time when she's active and I take her out of the tank, she stays very calm and seems happy to be out.
If I touch her when she's not active, most of the time she'll rattle her tail at me.

I don't know, she's just a silly snake. She even squirms around a lot when she's resting. She won't be in the same position for longer than like 5-10min. I'm not sure if that's normal or not though.

I've only had her for a month, so I'm still learning her behaviours, but I've only noticed a few consistent behaviours with her.

[Trollbie]

A HA!!!!!
get rid of that light....It is drying the air.....Lampros need no supplemental lighting.......
Use a heat pad, heat tape or heat cable.....

Even with the light the humidity is above 60% in there. I mainly have it on because she's in kind of a dark corner and doesn't get much daylight. She has a UTH underneath, and a little hermit crab one on the side.

I just put the light there a week ago, but her behaviours haven't changed. But I'll take it off or clamp it on the shelf above the tank so it's not on top of the tank directly.

[Jlassiter]

I would just turn it off and not use it for any colubrid.......

When you keep saying 60%.....there is no way it could be 60% humidity EVERYWHERE in the cage.......

[Trollbie]

I would just turn it off and not use it for any colubrid.......

When you keep saying 60%.....there is no way it could be 60% humidity EVERYWHERE in the cage.......

The hygro is in the middle. So I assume it's less on the warm side, and more on the very cool side.

[Jlassiter]

Just remember there shouldn't be a set recipe for keeping captive Lampros.......
Providing all you can think is what I consider best for them.......

[Trollbie]

Just remember there shouldn't be a set recipe for keeping captive Lampros.......
Providing all you can think is what I consider best for them.......

She's going to be getting a custom 4x2x2 cage so hopefully that will give her even more than what she has already.

[Jlassiter]

It is possible to provide all options in a 28qt tub.......Size has nothing to do with it.....LMAO!!!!!

[Trollbie]

It is possible to provide all options in a 28qt tub.......Size has nothing to do with it.....LMAO!!!!!

Well have fun LYAO, I guess. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Jlassiter]

I guess you didn't get the joke in there....Nothing was aimed at you......sorry.....