Breeding vs Morals and Ethics

[CDN_Blood]

Oops...poll didn't kick-in...please stay tuned...

Ethics and morals play a role in breeding reptiles, particularly in snakes. While a lot of people will readily create intergrade* or even hybrid** snakes, it's not really done with other herps such as lizards or frogs. This begs the question of why are people so liberal about it.

The boiled down root of that question leads us to a matter of ethics and morals. Make no mistake, these two things are not the same, so let's break it down so we're all reading from the same page...

Morals define personal character, while ethics stress a social system in which those morals are applied. In other words, ethics point to standards or codes of behaviour expected by the group to which the individual belongs. This could be national ethics, social ethics, professional ethics, or even family ethics. So while a person’s moral code is usually unchanging, the ethics they practice can be other-dependent.

Since hybridizing animals is universally considered unethical by the zoological and scientific communities, I cannot present that aspect in a poll. That leaves us with a question of morals, and since I’m a curious kinda guy who enjoys reading statistics, I thought I’d poll those willing to respond to gather some stats on this debate. Oh sure, we’ve debated it endlessly in other threads, but this one will give us some numbers to consider (I hope). So…

My question is this:
Do you consider creating intergrades and/or hybrids a moral or ethical issue?

Give yourself time to consider the factors before you vote, and consider the definitions of intergrade and hybrid outlined below when voting. Remember that you don't have to add any blurb about why you voted as you did if you wish to remain anonymous.

----------------------------
*intergrade: the process of merging into each other in a series of stages, forms, or types (e.g. Morelia intergrades are different subspecies of Morelia family bred together to create a new form of the original over time, such as Jaguar Pythons)

**hybrid: an animal (in this case) resulting from a cross between genetically unlike individuals (e.g. ‘Bateaters’ are a hybrid resulting from breeding a Burmese Python to a Reticulated Python)

[Lankyrob]

Nive way to get us all thinking!!!

My PERSONAL thoughts are intergrades are much more likely to happen in nature than hybrids and therefor for people to breed them in captivity is fine.

Hybrids MAY happen in nature but it would be a very rare occurance and PERSONALLY i cant see a hybrid necessarily breeding to produce a new generation. So whilst i like the look of some of the hybrids that i have seen, i dont consider it morally right to do.


Both my views are based on MY moral stance, i cant comment on the ethics of it as i dont have enough contact with breeders to know what that "society" thinks.

[youngster]

Rob basically took the words out of my mouth.

PS Todd very well written :p

[CDN_Blood]

...Hybrids MAY happen in nature but it would be a very rare occurance and PERSONALLY i cant see a hybrid necessarily breeding to produce a new generation...

I believe that most hybrids are sterile, so I don't think that's a problem. It also explains why they don't survive as a continued species in nature if it does happen ;)

[Brently]

I would say in a perfect world where the pet trade and the natural world would never comingle that both intergrades and hybridization is okay. However back here in reality where we all live I would say that intergrades should be practiced carefully. And hybridization should be very strictly limited to different species of the same locale and even then I would say it is a slippery slope.

[Xanafein]

Well, Intergrades and hybrids are both something I have an Extreme interest in

I don't consider the Odds of things happening in the wild a Factor In a closed environment where everything is Regulated, Feeding, Humidity, a hypersterile enironment ect. ect., that said what I do Consider is Quality of life.

Intergrades can always lead a healthy happy life in their environments, and so can most hybrids, so my thoughts on this matter are as follows

If the animal is healthy and happy, I don't care how its existence came to be

[KORBIN5895]

Oh does anyone else feel the heat??? If not it's coming.

As far as intergrades go I feel as long as there basic genetics are similar ( like bci and bcc) I have no issues with it. I realize this leads us to the debate of if snake "A" is really a pure locality or not.

As far as hybridization goes that also goes against my moral code. You wouldn't breed a cougar to a tiger or a rat to a degu. So why a burm to a retic or a bcc to an atb? They are very different in many physical aspects so why force those changes upon them? What if you produced something the size of a bcc but it had the habits and tendencies of an atb? That would just be whack for the port buggar.

[shaunyboy]

being honest i have no issues with either,as long as its NOT producing snakes with health issues

intergrades i would not have included as they can and do happen in the wild

re morphs
again as long as their are not a lot of health issues,then i have no problem with it

cheers shaun

[CDN_Blood]

Hold your thoughts, folks...our trusty Mod is going to add the poll for me 'cause a BDU error cause me to not included it <shakes fist at self>. While the logic behind your posts is always great to have, don't forget to go back and vote if you think the poll options are applicable. Thanks everyone, and a special thanks to Moderiffic Infernalis for saving the day yet again :D

So far, I have to say the quality of response posts is quite high. I'm impressed that folks are concerned about these things and that they've clearly given it some careful consideration. Keep up the good work! I'm so curious to see the numbers, lol...

[Aaron_S]

I believe that most hybrids are sterile...

This isn't true in the reptile world as it's been proven again and again. In particular the borneo bateater (retic x burm) have constantly bred with one another or back to one of it's parents lines. Hybrids in general are sterile outside the reptile world.

[Lankyrob]

I cant vote as neither option matches my thoughts :)

[CDN_Blood]

This isn't true in the reptile world as it's been proven again and again. In particular the borneo bateater (retic x burm) have constantly bred with one another or back to one of it's parents lines. Hybrids in general are sterile outside the reptile world.

Does that make it OK in your opinion?

[CDN_Blood]

I cant vote as neither option matches my thoughts :)

Would you have liked to see another option? If so, what would it be?

[Aaron_S]

Does that make it OK in your opinion?

I'm not wading into this debate. I clicked my vote and I'll leave it at that.

:)

[CDN_Blood]

I'm not wading into this debate. I clicked my vote and I'll leave it at that.

:)
Ha! Good man for voting and I'll leave it at that also :)

[infernalis]

This isn't true in the reptile world as it's been proven again and again. In particular the borneo bateater (retic x burm) have constantly bred with one another or back to one of it's parents lines. Hybrids in general are sterile outside the reptile world.

This has been true with corn/king/milk/rat crosses AND Garter snake crosses.

It has been widely debated that Infernalis and Tetrataenia have crossed in California forever in the wild, since their ranges cross and their DNA is nearly identical.

[Lankyrob]

Would you have liked to see another option? If so, what would it be?


As i see hybrids and intergrades in totally different lights one option in a vote wouldnt work for both situations. I think i said it all in my post tho :)

[CDN_Blood]

This has been true with corn/king/milk/rat crosses AND Garter snake crosses.

It has been widely debated that Infernalis and Tetrataenia have crossed in California forever in the wild, since their ranges cross and their DNA is nearly identical.

A most excellent point. If it is so readily interchangeable and territories overlap, it'll happen. If it's not so easily swappable with such compatibility, it simply won't survive. Thanks for presenting such a good example :)

[CDN_Blood]

As i see hybrids and intergrades in totally different lights one option in a vote wouldnt work for both situations. I think i said it all in my post tho :)

Trust me, I deliberated long and hard about what argument and options to present. In the end I actually opted to include both morals and ethics even though it's not up for debate amongst the guiding bodies. It wasn't an easy choice, which is the whole purpose of the exercise...it makes a body think ;)

[JustBitten]

This is a tough one and my answer is different depending on the circumstances. If you are dealing with an animal that is rare both in the wild and captivity, they should never be messed with other than to do what we can to bring their (as pure as possible without too much in-breeding) numbers up. I think we have an obligation to protect the original animal.

I don't know how this would function, but I think we also need to protect localities when and where we can. I understand they are not truly different animals, but they do seem to carry a collection of unique attributes and those are worth preserving. How and to what degree is a personal question. I do like it when a breeder shows dedication to an original form, but I'm no zealot.

Where the animal is very common, there is more latitude IMO. Intergrades of certain species make more sense to me, as some are very similar to begin with, or would likely happen in the wild anyway. Generally, if they are common in captivity and as long as they are identified as intergrades, I don't see a problem.

Hybrids can be beautiful, but what is the end game plan for making them, assuming they are sterile? Just 'cause? Again comes back to their rarity and the genetic cost associated to "wasting" that opportunity to make more of something at risk.

My biggest objection is the perpetuation of health problems. This is a personal opinion and I am absolutely not taking a shot at others who feel differently, but for example, I don't think spider Royals should be bred until we know more about their neuro issues. I have a long history breeding rabbits for show (as a kid), being around the dog breeding world, and breeding horses as a teen. A neurological issue like that would end a line in most cases. That is not to say that there are no problems in those worlds, cough cough German Shepherds, cough. Whoever decided to breed dogs with tendons so short they can't stand properly should be shot at sunrise.

However, I don't understand why the snake world has determinedly continued to breed an animal with a known problem. I do understand that we have not been able to identify that they are in pain and they do function to varying degrees, but when I see a bad example of the wobble, it makes me nauseous and I have to ask myself why we're doing this to them. Just because we love their combos? I would personally need a better reason than that to breed a spider even though I love how they look.

Acting responsibly, ethically, and morally can be an awkward, uncomfortable and difficult thing, no doubt.:O_o:

[lady_bug87]

I think this is a really good question and may give a lot of people food for thought. I have voted as well. I am very interested in the results

Very well written Todd :)

[MoreliAddict]

Most people keep snakes for amusement imo, a snake living in an enclosure is not natural in the first place. Given the reason we keep them in the first place I think there's nothing wrong with hybrids as long as whatever snakes that are being produced are healthy and cared for.

It's an ethical issue, however, because many keepers don't want others to "muddy up" the gene pool.

[KORBIN5895]

Hehe. I know what everyone voted!

[FangsAnarchy]

crossing a milk snake and a rat snake or something in the same family in my opinion is not a immoral or unethical thing to do. I consider myself a member of the scientific community and I have never heard amongst my peers or superiors that hybrids are wrong. In fact a few doctors in the field of zoology are fascinated by hybrids and have tried to create a few to see where things genetically match up. Speciation means that the crosses may or may not occur in nature due to size, location, breeding habits, and mating times. Animals are not harmed and the offspring are viable and fertile with this type of cross. Seeing as no harm is done the only people to really get upset are people in the pet trade. They get upset because blood line might become muddied up. Something might be passed off as a corn snake when it is actually a rat/corn hybrid. So that deals with ethics and what is socially acceptable. To this day I still don’t understand why the snake community has such an issue with these types of crosses. Almost every other animal hobby out there contains crosses. Dog breeding, cat breeding, horse breeding, fish breeding, goats, cows, ducks, chickens… Not to mention some of these crosses happen naturally or are for the greater good of the animal. For example a dog that has a great dane sire and a collie mother is less likely to have the heath problems that a pure great dane would have. Hence lengthening the animals life and providing a better quality of life since there is no way the animal is inbred and the gene pool stays fresh.
Lets start with 100 unrelated corn snakes 50 male 50 female
If we take 1 male or female from each litter than after generation 2 we have 50 clean unrelated corns
Next generation 25
Next 12
6
3
Now we have a problem. Everything although distantly is related. We could inbreed which could cause health problems since genes work in pairs and the animal is more likely to inherit the defected gene. There are no more corn snakes. You had the last 100. Should you inbreed and risk passing on sickness and deformity or should you bring in some fresh genes from a closely related species? Personally I am strongly against inbreeding and would rather see the hybrid. Just my thoughts, sorry to offend.

Also as a side note hybrids are sterile crosses are not.
Horse x Donkey = not the same thing so steril
Wolf x Labradore = same thing and fertile (as a cladist i feel dometicus and lupus are incorrect but...)

[KORBIN5895]

crossing a milk snake and a rat snake or something in the same family in my opinion is not a immoral or unethical thing to do. I consider myself a member of the scientific community and I have never heard amongst my peers or superiors that hybrids are wrong. In fact a few doctors in the field of zoology are fascinated by hybrids and have tried to create a few to see where things genetically match up. Speciation means that the crosses may or may not occur in nature due to size, location, breeding habits, and mating times. Animals are not harmed and the offspring are viable and fertile with this type of cross. Seeing as no harm is done the only people to really get upset are people in the pet trade. They get upset because blood line might become muddied up. Something might be passed off as a corn snake when it is actually a rat/corn hybrid. So that deals with ethics and what is socially acceptable. To this day I still don’t understand why the snake community has such an issue with these types of crosses. Almost every other animal hobby out there contains crosses. Dog breeding, cat breeding, horse breeding, fish breeding, goats, cows, ducks, chickens… Not to mention some of these crosses happen naturally or are for the greater good of the animal. For example a dog that has a great dane sire and a collie mother is less likely to have the heath problems that a pure great dane would have. Hence lengthening the animals life and providing a better quality of life since there is no way the animal is inbred and the gene pool stays fresh.
Lets start with 100 unrelated corn snakes 50 male 50 female
If we take 1 male or female from each litter than after generation 2 we have 50 clean unrelated corns
Next generation 25
Next 12
6
3
Now we have a problem. Everything although distantly is related. We could inbreed which could cause health problems since genes work in pairs and the animal is more likely to inherit the defected gene. There are no more corn snakes. You had the last 100. Should you inbreed and risk passing on sickness and deformity or should you bring in some fresh genes from a closely related species? Personally I am strongly against inbreeding and would rather see the hybrid. Just my thoughts, sorry to offend.

Also as a side note hybrids are sterile crosses are not.
Horse x Donkey = not the same thing so steril
Wolf x Labradore = same thing and fertile (as a cladist i feel dometicus and lupus are incorrect but...)
So what your saying is eradicating the sub species is better than inbreeding?

[FangsAnarchy]

Yes, if it would happen in nature then yes 100% preserving a subspecies for no other reason than for the pet trade is just selfish. We lose sub species daily to speciation. Again, I know my thoughts are not shared by most.

[exwizard]

being honest i have no issues with either,as long as its NOT producing snakes with health issues

intergrades i would not have included as they can and do happen in the wild

re morphs
again as long as their are not a lot of health issues,then i have no problem with it

cheers shaunIve done some thinking about this for a while. I am in agreement with Shaun on this one. I have no problems with hybrids as long as there are no resulting health issues and the breeder is forthright and upfront in explaining to the prospective buyer that it is a hybrid.

[hellosugaree]

Nive way to get us all thinking!!!

My PERSONAL thoughts are intergrades are much more likely to happen in nature than hybrids and therefor for people to breed them in captivity is fine.


None of what breeders do is natural anyway so I don't think this really matters either way. In nature, offspring are selected based on their ability to survive and reproduce. Their survival depends on their fitness for their particular environment, and stochastic events (doesn't matter how wonderful a baby is if a tree happens to fall on it before it can produce offspring). Passing on one's own genetics also depends on an individual's ability to find mates. If you live 9000 years but can't find a mate, you aren't going to figure into the gene pool.

In a breeding situation, we are choosing who to breed with whom. Even if you breed all wild-caught original lines or whatever, the breeder is going to have an influence anyway. Even if you randomly select pairs, you are still influencing the genetics. If you take a wild population and capture half the individuals and randomly breed them for 100 years, and then let the other half do it naturally, you'll undoubtedly have differences, even if the individuals in the two groups are exactly matched. As a breeder you have no way of determining which animal would have a better chance to mate in the wild, or which mother will be more likely to protect her eggs well in the wild, even if she does it fine in your plastic box.

My main point is that you can't be a purist or whatever you want to call it and preserve a natural gene pool anyway, so why pretend like you are? Since you are introducing artificial selection, or at the very least removing normal selective pressures, then why not have some fun?

No matter how hard you try, you're never going to be nature. So why bother trying?

[FangsAnarchy]

None of what breeders do is natural anyway so I don't think this really matters either way. In nature, offspring are selected based on their ability to survive and reproduce. Their survival depends on their fitness for their particular environment, and stochastic events (doesn't matter how wonderful a baby is if a tree happens to fall on it before it can produce offspring). Passing on one's own genetics also depends on an individual's ability to find mates. If you live 9000 years but can't find a mate, you aren't going to figure into the gene pool.

In a breeding situation, we are choosing who to breed with whom. Even if you breed all wild-caught original lines or whatever, the breeder is going to have an influence anyway. Even if you randomly select pairs, you are still influencing the genetics. If you take a wild population and capture half the individuals and randomly breed them for 100 years, and then let the other half do it naturally, you'll undoubtedly have differences, even if the individuals in the two groups are exactly matched. As a breeder you have no way of determining which animal would have a better chance to mate in the wild, or which mother will be more likely to protect her eggs well in the wild, even if she does it fine in your plastic box.

My main point is that you can't be a purist or whatever you want to call it and preserve a natural gene pool anyway, so why pretend like you are? Since you are introducing artificial selection, or at the very least removing normal selective pressures, then why not have some fun?

No matter how hard you try, you're never going to be nature. So why bother trying?

I agree!

Also just as a little fun fact there was a species of deer or moose (something with horns not antlers and yes I know deer and moose have antlers) that evolved its self out of existance. Females kept selecting males with the largest horns. So offspring kept being born with larger and larger horns. Eventually the horns became too large and too heavy and the males would snap their necks under the weight of the massive horns before reaching sexual maturity. So natural selection killed the species.

But yes I think hybrids are fine so long as no animal is harmed and they are marketed as such.

[CDN_Blood]

I agree!

Also just as a little fun fact there was a species of deer or moose (something with horns not antlers and yes I know deer and moose have antlers) that evolved its self out of existance. Females kept selecting males with the largest horns. So offspring kept being born with larger and larger horns. Eventually the horns became too large and too heavy and the males would snap their necks under the weight of the massive horns before reaching sexual maturity. So natural selection killed the species.

<insert absolutely dumbfounded look here> Like...what?! This is a serious thread. Keep the jokes for the Joke thread, okay? Okay!

[Caylan]

Did the females not realise those horns gotta come outta them sometime.....

Personally I don't feel hybridising snakes has anything to do with morals or ethics, its all personal choice, just like everything else you do. No need for fancy words or descriptions, its what you do afterwards that requires the morals and ehtics. Responsibility is key.

[red ink]

Ok... I have too much to say but I'll condense it as it will lead to too many other discussions

1 Sub-species - most sub-species are sub-species beacause a PhD student said so, granted if they hold intrinsic differences then they probably should be given a sub-species status... but what does that really do for the taxa? It only confuses it as all sub-species can interbreed.

2 Sub-species breeding what does that do for the hobby?..... What's my carpet anyone?

3 Hybrids.... vehemently not for me. I keep snake for their natural beauty, not to play "pokemon" and see what I can create, but that's my preference. Each to their own on this one, it does not mean I can't appreciate a snake for it's beauty what ever is in the mix.

4 What do you do with the rejects from playing "pokemon"... euth, give away for free, misrepresent them to the buyer, feed to my varanid or BHP?

Hybrids and intergrades are not a question of ethics or morality.... their a question of intent.

By the way I'm one of those "purist" I trace all my animals down to their locality, I will never produce hybrids or intergrades.

[KORBIN5895]

<insert absolutely dumbfounded look here> Like...what?! This is a serious thread. Keep the jokes for the Joke thread, okay? Okay!

That's a plus two in my book!

[FangsAnarchy]

Not a joke, was intended to illustrate the point that even natural selection is not always best. It is actually a real species and when breeders play match maker they try to always breed the best which isn't always for the good of the species. Think of all the morphs that would never occur or survive in nature. As long as you are not selecting something to be unhealthy then there shouldn't be anything wrong with it.

[jaleely]

found it

The Case of the Irish Elk (http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/artio/irishelk.html)


Evolution is natural selection. Humans interfering is just selection.

I just disagree with creating purposely unhealthy, or weak genetic animals strictly because you like their color or pattern.
I didn't vote.

[KORBIN5895]

So while reading that article I noticed this.


Unable to adapt to the subartic conditions of the last glaciation or the marked transition that occured after the final retreat of the ice sheet, the largest deer that ever lived became extinct, the last one in Ireland dying around 11,000 years ago. Megaloceros may have possibly survived in continental Europe into historic times.

[FangsAnarchy]

found it

The Case of the Irish Elk (http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/artio/irishelk.html)


Evolution is natural selection. Humans interfering is just selection.

I just disagree with creating purposely unhealthy, or weak genetic animals strictly because you like their color or pattern.
I didn't vote.

Thank you, I thought horns which was why I thought sheep maybe. That was the article though.

[millertime89]

This isn't true in the reptile world as it's been proven again and again. In particular the borneo bateater (retic x burm) have constantly bred with one another or back to one of it's parents lines. Hybrids in general are sterile outside the reptile world.

True to an extent, while most hybrids are sterile to other hybrids, many are capable of being bred back to either parent species. I'm unaware of this being tested in snakes as hybrids are generally difficult enough to prodice let alone get to reproduce themselves.

Personally I see no problem with hybrids and integrades so for me it would have to be an ethical question. In a perfect world the beautiful creatures that come from the pairings would become nothing more than pets, but alas that is not the case especially when morphs begin to come into the picture.

I'm going to read the rest of the thread before posting further as I, like you Todd, am fascinated by this subject even if we don't agree.

[millertime89]

I would like to respond to posts 20, 24, 31, 32; this post is serving as a reminder for when I am on a computer tomorrw.

Regarding the Irish Elk. The natural history museum at my University has the skeleton of one. I should see if I can take pictures of the place to share with you guys. Its rather an impressice college museum.

[KORBIN5895]

So while reading that article I noticed this.


Unable to adapt to the subartic conditions of the last glaciation or the marked transition that occured after the final retreat of the ice sheet, the largest deer that ever lived became extinct, the last one in Ireland dying around 11,000 years ago. Megaloceros may have possibly survived in continental Europe into historic times.

Again this article claims that their inability to adapt is why they died not that their antlers were too big from selective breeding.

If there mating was anything like whitetail deer then that whole theory about their antlers being too big is seriously flawed and quite funny.

No matter how large a bucks antlers are he can't breed all the females. Also I a bucks antlers grew so large he couldn't carry them he probably wouldn't be able to breed. If the were so large he couldn't spar he wouldn't be able to breed either. Also if you were to do a search you would find videos of two large bucks fighting over a female and some scrawny little dude come slinking in and mount the female. Also I am unaware of any antlered animal that is born with antlers so that wouldn't be an issue. Most antlered animals shed their antlers every year so the stress of carrying them all year wouldn't be much of an issue either. Finally antlers do not continuously grow unlike horns which grow for the life of the animal.

So unless there was something really fifteenth another this elk (other than the size of its rack) there is no plausible way for anyone to claim that they went extinct because they selectively breed their antlers too big.

[CDN_Blood]

Enough with the deer nonsense. Get your own thread and stop derailing serious debate. I don't take kindly to my posts being derailed with unrelated crap - stick to the topic or don't post in my threads.

[KORBIN5895]

What are you going to do about it Todd? Take my cookies?

Seriously though. They tried to use an absolute rediculous point to support their position about it being okay to dilute the subspecies or even breed it out existence. I was just showing how that example is totally erroneous and didn't even line up with the article they claimed supported their position.

Don't make me block you Todd! I am crazy and you know I will!

[CDN_Blood]

This thread had gotten too off-track and I'm considering it CLOSED - I got the stats to satisfy my curiosity. My thanks to those who participated in the serious debate and/or voted. If you want to thank those who derailed it so badly, send them a private message and let them know how much you appreciate it.

[Gregg M]

This thread had gotten too off-track and I'm considering it CLOSED - I got the stats to satisfy my curiosity. My thanks to those who participated in the serious debate and/or voted. If you want to thank those who derailed it so badly, send them a private message and let them know how much you appreciate it.

Want some cheese with that whine? Everything talked about in this thread It is relevant to the topic. If you want to consider the thread closed, do so. In reality, it is still open. This is a public forum you started a topic on. If people want to reply with what they feel is relevant information, they can. If you want to have a private coversation with yourself, that is what a padded room was made for. The problem with your poll is you only offered 2 options and forced people to pick one or the other. The truth is, there are several answers to your question.

Anyway, poducing hybrid reptiles in a captive setting is not a moral or ethical issue. What are ethics and morals anyway? They are codes made by people for people to do business by and to live by. If you break it down they are just opinions as well. Opinions of the majority. Seems like this topic is split down the middle with an entire group of people who can care less either way.

Is it unethical to produce hybrids? No, but I can see why it would be unethical to sell them and to not disclose their genetic make up to a buyer.

Is it immoral? Ask the snakes if they live by our moral codes.

Where is the harm? What are the dangers?

Creating hybrids is no different than breeding morphs. You are taking the normal and making it not normal. People want to make even normals look better. They take two normal animals that look a bit nicer and breed them together to make nicer offspring. There is no natural selection in captivity. Even if you take 2 animals from the exact same locality, what is to say that those two particular animals would have ever bred?

You can not be a purist and keep wild animals in your home. If you truely want to be purist, leave the animals in their natural habitat, not in one created by you. Pretty simple.

This is captivity girls and boys. We play god because in this instance, we are god/nature. We pick what food items to feed, we provide their water, we are in control of their heat, we pick who breeds with who, and we incubate their eggs and care for the offspring. Nothing natural about any of that.

[Aaron_S]

... In a perfect world the beautiful creatures that come from the pairings would become nothing more than pets, but alas that is not the case especially when morphs begin to come into the picture...

Nothing to do with morphs. You're screwing with the original genetics of the parents at this point. North America hasn't had any important carpet pythons from Australia in forever, we no longer have a gene pool for them, it's a gene puddle. I really would have a hard time believing any carpet is "pure" at this point.

[MoreliAddict]

Evolution is natural selection. Humans interfering is just selection.

I just disagree with creating purposely unhealthy, or weak genetic animals strictly because you like their color or pattern.
I didn't vote.
Selecting a breeding pair with attention to which colors look best (even when pure breeding a real species) cannot be considered natural selection either :rolleyes:

[UwabamiReptiles]

Ive done some thinking about this for a while. I am in agreement with Shaun on this one. I have no problems with hybrids as long as there are no resulting health issues and the breeder is forthright and upfront in explaining to the prospective buyer that it is a hybrid.


I agree with shaun and wiz. As long as no health issues and the breeder is straigtht forward about what the animal is, then I don't have a problem with hybrids.

[hellosugaree]

You can not be a purist and keep wild animals in your home. If you truely want to be purist, leave the animals in their natural habitat, not in one created by you. Pretty simple.

This is captivity girls and boys. We play god because in this instance, we are god/nature. We pick what food items to feed, we provide their water, we are in control of their heat, we pick who breeds with who, and we incubate their eggs and care for the offspring. Nothing natural about any of that.

Exactly. Amen.

[cenecker]

Who wants my .02!?

For me its simple. I've honestly never been a fan hybrids, albinos, morphs, mixed localities, etc. I know most of the herptoculture world disagrees with me (and I don't begrudge them that!) but I think albinos and morphs are all creepy and ugly! I just prefer the way nature makes everything. That's my taste and what "seems right" to me.

My moral stance...not sure really. We've raised many good points here. Keeping animals in boxes instead of the wild is already playing god. Where do you draw the line?

Great Thread!

[cenecker]

whoops! I didn't really answer the question did I?

For me it's a moral question. But then I believe fanatically in personal freedom and personal accountability (you can't one without the other!). So I'd say it's YOUR personal choice what you're comfortable with.

[red ink]

Anyway, poducing hybrid reptiles in a captive setting is not a moral or ethical issue. What are ethics and morals anyway? They are codes made by people for people to do business by and to live by. If you break it down they are just opinions as well. Opinions of the majority. Seems like this topic is split down the middle with an entire group of people who can care less either way.

......
.......
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You can not be a purist and keep wild animals in your home. If you truely want to be purist, leave the animals in their natural habitat, not in one created by you. Pretty simple.



Just like the ambiguous definition of ethics the definition of purist can be the same... I consider myself a purist in the sense that I don't keep hybrids or intergrades and only keep locality pure animals.

[Gregg M]

Just like the ambiguous definition of ethics the definition of purist can be the same... I consider myself a purist in the sense that I don't keep hybrids or intergrades and only keep locality pure animals.

What species/subspecies do you keep? And how can you be sure they are pure/locality spacific? Just a question. Not trying to be an ***.

[red ink]

What species/subspecies do you keep? And how can you be sure they are pure/locality spacific? Just a question. Not trying to be an ***.

Morelia spilota cheynei Tully locale and Atherton locale

Antaresia stimsoni stimsoni Windorah locale

Antaresia maculosa Mt Malloy locale

All purchased from breeders who are keeping locale specific animals

[millertime89]

Nothing to do with morphs. You're screwing with the original genetics of the parents at this point. North America hasn't had any important carpet pythons from Australia in forever, we no longer have a gene pool for them, it's a gene puddle. I really would have a hard time believing any carpet is "pure" at this point.

I was thinking more of crossing morphs into other localities/species. Some boa genetics, the jag gene in carpets being crossed into other localities and bredli's, just to name a few.
Although I do understand what you're getting at with the puddle/pool re: blood purity.

[millertime89]

Who wants my .02!?

For me its simple. I've honestly never been a fan hybrids, albinos, morphs, mixed localities, etc. I know most of the herptoculture world disagrees with me (and I don't begrudge them that!) but I think albinos and morphs are all creepy and ugly! I just prefer the way nature makes everything. That's my taste and what "seems right" to me.

My moral stance...not sure really. We've raised many good points here. Keeping animals in boxes instead of the wild is already playing god. Where do you draw the line?

Great Thread!

You do realize that albinos and other morphs are nature created too right?
Human morphs: blue eyes, blonde/red hair, blood type, ear lobe shape, butt chin (not sure the actual name for this) fingerprint shape, widow's peak, the whorle (sp?), granted we don't breed for these traits (most of us don't anyways) but if you've got blue eyes, technically you're a freak (I'm one, yay!). That's also not a bad thing.

I still need to respond to those other posts...

[millertime89]

This is a tough one and my answer is different depending on the circumstances. If you are dealing with an animal that is rare both in the wild and captivity, they should never be messed with other than to do what we can to bring their (as pure as possible without too much in-breeding) numbers up. I think we have an obligation to protect the original animal.

Where the animal is very common, there is more latitude IMO. Intergrades of certain species make more sense to me, as some are very similar to begin with, or would likely happen in the wild anyway. Generally, if they are common in captivity and as long as they are identified as intergrades, I don't see a problem.

Hybrids can be beautiful, but what is the end game plan for making them, assuming they are sterile? Just 'cause? Again comes back to their rarity and the genetic cost associated to "wasting" that opportunity to make more of something at risk.

My biggest objection is the perpetuation of health problems. This is a personal opinion and I am absolutely not taking a shot at others who feel differently, but for example, I don't think spider Royals should be bred until we know more about their neuro issues. I have a long history breeding rabbits for show (as a kid), being around the dog breeding world, and breeding horses as a teen. A neurological issue like that would end a line in most cases.

However, I don't understand why the snake world has determinedly continued to breed an animal with a known problem. I do understand that we have not been able to identify that they are in pain and they do function to varying degrees, but when I see a bad example of the wobble, it makes me nauseous and I have to ask myself why we're doing this to them. Just because we love their combos? I would personally need a better reason than that to breed a spider even though I love how they look.

Acting responsibly, ethically, and morally can be an awkward, uncomfortable and difficult thing, no doubt.:O_o:

Some of these animals are rare in the wild but relatively common in captivity so hybrids are indeed "just cause" and to see what they look like.
They look great and appearance is what sells snakes.

Now we have a problem. Everything although distantly is related. We could inbreed which could cause health problems since genes work in pairs and the animal is more likely to inherit the defected gene. There are no more corn snakes. You had the last 100. Should you inbreed and risk passing on sickness and deformity or should you bring in some fresh genes from a closely related species? Personally I am strongly against inbreeding and would rather see the hybrid. Just my thoughts, sorry to offend.

I can't comment on what the scientific community would think about this, however your point about inbreeding and what happens when bad genes are brought out is interesting. Ideally the least fit animals are either going to die or be killed off so natural selection ultimately should prevent these genes from surviving. There are some exceptions to this, but that's generally what happens.

Also if an animal has such low numbers in the wild and isn't a result of human interference then it clearly isn't meant to survive. Animals fight to fill niches in the wild and when they're forced out by something that fills the niche better that's also natural selection. There's no place in the wild for an animal that doesn't have a place. How many animals went extinct simply because of this?

Did the females not realise those horns gotta come outta them sometime.....

Personally I don't feel hybridising snakes has anything to do with morals or ethics, its all personal choice, just like everything else you do. No need for fancy words or descriptions, its what you do afterwards that requires the morals and ehtics. Responsibility is key.

good point, but there are some very unscrupulous people out there that are gonna misrepresent the snakes as things they're not and as a result you get the situation we see with carpets. I think integrades are more dangerous in this aspect then hybrids because hybrids are distinctly different and easily noticeable, however some integrades are too, just not as easy to tell apart.

not to play "pokemon" and see what I can create, but that's my preference. Each to their own on this one, it does not mean I can't appreciate a snake for it's beauty what ever is in the mix.

4 What do you do with the rejects from playing "pokemon"... euth, give away for free, misrepresent them to the buyer, feed to my varanid or BHP?

love the reference...
and yes, euth and feed to an animal that eats snakes, they gotta eat too, how else are you gonna feed them?

[Freebody]

i dont think its either option as well. but ethics seems to be the closest, as i thinks people pick a side of the fense based on what others say how much they dont like it, hense the snow ball effect. I think their is nothing wrong with this, if science didnt agree, then it would not be possible as far as im concened. you CANT breed boes to pythons, so if you went in a lab and made a so called frankenstien snake, then yess i would say thats gone a little too far, but if just putting to compatible species together and getting snakes out of it, whats the big deal. ex, i like all women, black white yeallow, hell if i a chick was green and i liked her, i would give a **** less what anyone thought, and in this day and age everyone seems to see things the same way, or at least racism does not exsist here, thank god! but just a short 100 years ago, people were so narrow minded, they thought each color should be sperate.......same with snakes as far as im concered, a few years from now when more and more people have had success doing this cross breeding, the less uncomon and taboo it will be, i think imho. AS LONG as said snakes are repreisented as what the truly are, Highbreads. and not some **** mix of a snake labeled as a pure what ever.

[Aaron_S]

I was thinking more of crossing morphs into other localities/species. Some boa genetics, the jag gene in carpets being crossed into other localities and bredli's, just to name a few.
Although I do understand what you're getting at with the puddle/pool re: blood purity.

I get what you're saying and I have to agree. It muddles things up even more, especially with the likes of carpets in North America.

[Aaron_S]

...AS LONG as said snakes are repreisented as what the truly are, Highbreads. and not some **** mix of a snake labeled as a pure what ever.

That therein lies the issue. A lot of hybrids just look like a new morph of one parent or the other and lies are always given to what they really are or the babies are bred back to pure strains of one parent line and sold as pure.

Back a number of years people were breeding diamond carpet pythons to jungle carpets and claiming they were pure diamonds because they sold for like $1,000 bucks a pop.

[jaleely]

why do people get so worked up if "their" threads get off topic? good lord if you don't want discussion don't post in public.

i hope that pissy tirade was a joke.

Actually i don't care either way. I'll just talk about elk and snakes as i please.
I tend to agree with korbin, i think it was, on the shedding of antlers and the males mating and all that.

I already said my opinion on snakes. Which i guess moreliaddict was agreeing with..? Since we said basically the same thing.

Hmm anyway my favorite pudding is vanilla. Why do you think that is, when i am strictly a chocolate person when it comes to say, chocolate? I like vanilla cake though. My favorite is white cake with whipped cream frosting.
You?

[millertime89]

in this day and age everyone seems to see things the same way, or at least racism does not exsist here, thank god! but just a short 100 years ago, people were so narrow minded, they thought each color should be sperate.

everyone's a little bit racist, its true...
RovF1zsDoeM

everyone needs to see Avenue Q if they have the opportunity. I was fortunate enough to see it 2 years ago and I would love to attend again if its ever performed near me again.

I get what you're saying and I have to agree. It muddles things up even more, especially with the likes of carpets in North America.

glad I was able to convey that thought, I wasn't sure how clear I could be without giving specific examples

That therein lies the issue. A lot of hybrids just look like a new morph of one parent or the other and lies are always given to what they really are or the babies are bred back to pure strains of one parent line and sold as pure.

Back a number of years people were breeding diamond carpet pythons to jungle carpets and claiming they were pure diamonds because they sold for like $1,000 bucks a pop.

and that's where it becomes a slippery slope and dishonest people ruin it for the rest of us. I make it a point to not deal with breeders that engage in those sorts of practices if I find out about them in time. Only reason I'll even entertain the thought of working with them is if they've got something I REALLY want (a dwarf burm for example until I bought my girl, I thought I was going to have to buy from BC, *shudder*)

why do people get so worked up if "their" threads get off topic? good lord if you don't want discussion don't post in public.

i hope that pissy tirade was a joke.

Actually i don't care either way. I'll just talk about elk and snakes as i please.
I tend to agree with korbin, i think it was, on the shedding of antlers and the males mating and all that.

I already said my opinion on snakes. Which i guess moreliaddict was agreeing with..? Since we said basically the same thing.

Hmm anyway my favorite pudding is vanilla. Why do you think that is, when i am strictly a chocolate person when it comes to say, chocolate? I like vanilla cake though. My favorite is white cake with whipped cream frosting.
You?

I don't get it either, but whatever. I'm gonna try and get to the museum on campus on Wednesday and take some pictures of the impressive Irish Elk skeleton they have mounted and share it with you guys.

I love mixed vanilla/chocolate pudding. I'm a sucker for strawberry jello cake personally, or rum cake, or better-than-sex cake. All three are fantastic options.

Although those last two discussion topics are probably a little TOO off topic. Back to the breeding discussion...

[cenecker]

You do realize that albinos and other morphs are nature created too right?
Human morphs: blue eyes, blonde/red hair, blood type, ear lobe shape, butt chin (not sure the actual name for this) fingerprint shape, widow's peak, the whorle (sp?), granted we don't breed for these traits (most of us don't anyways) but if you've got blue eyes, technically you're a freak (I'm one, yay!). That's also not a bad thing.

I still need to respond to those other posts...

You are correct about that. There is of course the argument that most of these mutations would be highly subject to natural selection (its not adventageous to be white and pink when you are small and edible!). Natural selection typically removes these traits from the gene pool whilst we perpetuate them in captivity...hhmmmm

however, I will again state that im speaking more about my personal taste than morals. I certainly dont look down on thode who breed color or pattern morphs, its just notmy preference.

[millertime89]

You are correct about that. There is of course the argument that most of these mutations would be highly subject to natural selection (its not adventageous to be white and pink when you are small and edible!). Natural selection typically removes these traits from the gene pool whilst we perpetuate them in captivity...hhmmmm

however, I will again state that im speaking more about my personal taste than morals. I certainly dont look down on thode who breed color or pattern morphs, its just notmy preference.

yup, but they still survive. The co-doms and dominant genes are ones in particular that intrigue me more. Surely they must have something that allowed them in the past to become more prevalent and thus more common resulting in a stronger gene.

I dunno, I'm just kind of blabbing now.

No worries, we all have our preferences. That's kind of what I've taken from this thread, everybody has their own view on the subject. I'm a little more open minded than most and its evident here as well.

[CDN_Blood]

Want some cheese with that whine? Everything talked about in this thread It is relevant to the topic. If you want to consider the thread closed, do so. In reality, it is still open. This is a public forum you started a topic on. If people want to reply with what they feel is relevant information, they can. If you want to have a private coversation with yourself, that is what a padded room was made for.
You know, it takes 10 kinds of arrogance to make a statement like this in public. Fortunately, all it does is show the world the quality of your character. Thanks for sharing this little glimpse into your psyche <rolls eyes> :)

[millertime89]

I agree with Gregg 100%. I was going to say something snarky, but I changed my mind. The tread is now dead and you brought it back by responding to Gregg. Just pointing that out.

[jaleely]

haha good point millertime.

So CDN...i'd like to know why you think greg is arrogant...but are acting like you are not? I do believe you're the one that got fussy that people even talked on *your* thread. I mean i can only assume you are being ironic...

[shaunyboy]

Who wants my .02!?
I think albinos and morphs are all creepy and ugly! I just prefer the way nature makes everything. That's my taste and what "seems right" to me.


i'm not trying to be a smart arse but.....

" albino's " occur in the wild all the time,so albino's are the way nature makes them mate;)

cheers shaun

[MoreliAddict]

Who wants my .02!?

For me its simple. I've honestly never been a fan hybrids, albinos, morphs, mixed localities, etc. I know most of the herptoculture world disagrees with me (and I don't begrudge them that!) but I think albinos and morphs are all creepy and ugly! I just prefer the way nature makes everything. That's my taste and what "seems right" to me.

My moral stance...not sure really. We've raised many good points here. Keeping animals in boxes instead of the wild is already playing god. Where do you draw the line?

Great Thread!
All morphs (excluding combinations of multiple morphs) were plucked from the wild. As Shaun said, nature "makes" albinos as well. ;)

[red ink]

i'm not trying to be a smart arse but.....

" albino's " occur in the wild all the time,so albino's are the way nature makes them mate;)

cheers shaun

Yep... that's were all albino carpets come from.

Blondie and white phoenix, both WC animals surrendered to wildlife authorities and given permission to be bred from.

[Gregg M]

I get what you're saying and I have to agree. It muddles things up even more, especially with the likes of carpets in North America.

You would be suprized how common locality spacific carpets are now becoming. Heck, pretty recently, I legally imported pure zoo bred Darwin carpets into the US. Working on the papers to get 3 more locality spacific carpet subspecies in.

[millertime89]

You would be suprized how common locality spacific carpets are now becoming. Heck, pretty recently, I legally imported pure zoo bred Darwin carpets into the US. Working on the papers to get 3 more locality spacific carpet subspecies in.

You should post updates of them, I would love to see them.