Savannah monitor abuse

[Bradyloach]

So I went to drop my deposit on my enclosure; and it was discusting this sav is in a 30 gallon fish tank, with no basking spot just a water dish. And fed 20 crickets a day. Has a heating pad that is it. It's a terrible terrible store. My business is done with them after I get my enclosure. I told them there killing him slowly and need to read care sheets, the proper ones and I wrote down Wayne's website and told them to read it. Also he tried telling my not to put bulbs in the enclosure that I'm buying only a heating pad and some long tube lights. Wtf? Come on now. I told him just to build the enclosure and call me when it is done

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/bradyloach/9bb9e34a.jpg
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/bradyloach/e7aba819.jpg

[alessia55]

Oh g-d, that poor animal :no: After you get the enclosure from them, report them to the animal cops for neglect. Seriously. That's awful...

[Bradyloach]

I actually will. This is bad. Really disgusting, this animal can be handled quite well and tame. But guaranteed an hour in a good enclosure he would be tailwhipping and hissing like there's no tomorrow

[infernalis]

How sad...

[SpOoKy]

Personally I wouldn't have done any business with them.
Why did he tell you not to put bulbs in?
Is this enclosure going to be able to handle the amount of dirt and heat needed for your Sav?

[Bradyloach]

Yah I said it has to have 24 inches of substrate depth or I'm not buying it! So that is good. It's a great enclosure

[BarelyBreathing]

After you get the enclosure from them, report them to the animal cops for neglect...


If he lasts that long.

Heartbreaking...

[alessia55]

Brady: Report Animal Cruelty - SPCA - Ontario (http://www.sudbury.ontariospca.ca/1-whocall.shtml)

[Bradyloach]

Yah, if they even care about reptiles. This guy is ****ed! I'm going to report him, he has tortoises living in a cage made out of Plywood and Saran rap with heating pads

[BarelyBreathing]

Plywood isn't THAT bad, but saran wrap????

[Bradyloach]

Saran wrap over the whole enclosure. There chameleons are in a screens enclosure as ate the peach throats. The snakes are mixed either eachother. I seen 6, huge ball pythons together In a 6 ft x 1.5 ft with no substrate. There bearded dragons are with anther species plated lizards? There crested gechos leave no tails and are in a screened in enclosure, there water dragons are in an enclosure 3 ft high, 1.5 wide an there is 3 of them on there

[BarelyBreathing]

Screen is generally recommended for chameleons, but definitely NOT for peach throats.

[Gungirl]

So remind me again why you are giving this place your money? I wouldn't care what they had that I wanted I wouldn't give them a DIME! That is bullshit..

[Bradyloach]

Kat, I need this enclosure, or else my sav can't have a happy home. I cant build one because it would be to bulky, this one is perfect. I'm done there tho and will report this

[millertime89]

wow, that's just disgusting, that poor animal.

[Gregg M]

Yah, if they even care about reptiles. This guy is ****ed! I'm going to report him, he has tortoises living in a cage made out of Plywood and Saran rap with heating pads

You do realize that reporting them will do nthing, right? Honestly, as long as there is food, water, a heat source, and the animal looks in good condition, nothing will happen.

Fact is, it is a pet store. They are not worried about long term care. They are worried about the turn over.

It sucks that the reptile has to live like that but it was never ment to stay there on a long term basis.

[Bradyloach]

That's what sucks. If I had the room and time I would adopt him

[jarich]

Unfortunately that would make the problem worse most likely. If they can sell it then its a success for the pet store as they make money on it. So they would just repeat the process again and again. I think the only way around it is the way that dogs and cats got banned from pet stores, lots of protests, picketing, petitions, and other general craziness. Gotta hit em in the pocketbooks!

[Savvy1]

Sad.......

[Gregg M]

I know some of you think it is sad or messed up. However, it would not be very cost effective for a pet shop to set their animals up in huge cages with deep substrates. In order to sell the animals, they need to be visible pretty much all the time. It may not be right to some of you but the fact is, it is only supposed to be temporary.

[infernalis]

I know some of you think it is sad or messed up. However, it would not be very cost effective for a pet shop to set their animals up in huge cages with deep substrates. In order to sell the animals, they need to be visible pretty much all the time. It may not be right to some of you but the fact is, it is only supposed to be temporary.

That part is true...

I tried turning in a pet store once, and the animal control officer told me himself "I don't have any husbandry data on that species, so who am I to judge if it's needs are met"

[BarelyBreathing]

I know some of you think it is sad or messed up. However, it would not be very cost effective for a pet shop to set their animals up in huge cages with deep substrates. In order to sell the animals, they need to be visible pretty much all the time. It may not be right to some of you but the fact is, it is only supposed to be temporary.


The store in my area may not set them up perfectly, but at least they do it acceptably for a short time. They keep them in 4x4x4 enclosures that hold humidity VERY well on cypress bedding.

[Savvy1]

Ya but if the had the proper setup for every animal they sell in the long run you would get more buyers and More buyers mean more money because people like to no that the animal there buying is health and disease free.

[Gregg M]

The store in my area may not set them up perfectly, but at least they do it acceptably for a short time. They keep them in 4x4x4 enclosures that hold humidity VERY well on cypress bedding.

Honestly, there is no difference. The store in your area is only giving it the basic care to keep it alive in a store setting. One bad set up is not better than another bad set up. The point is, if it is a store to be sold, the set up does not matter much. It is just a temporary set up. What matters is what the buyer does with the animal when he/she buys it. Nothing can be done about stores caging. Like it or not, those anmals are there so the store can make money. Setting them up in huge expensive cages and providing every single need is just not cost effective.

We breed varanids. Our breeders are set up in expensive cages because #1, they are our pets that will be here for life. #2, the need a proper set up in order to be productive.

The hatchlings are set up in very simple cages #1, they will not be here longer than a month. #2, hatchlings do not need the same digs as breeder adults. #3, it would not be space or cost effective to set up huge cages for hatchlings.

Lets face it, people do not sell/breed these animals strictly because the love the species. Certainly, to be successful, you have to care about them a lot. But, one of a breeders/sellers goals is to make money. Without breeders and sellers making money, this hobby would not exist on the scale it does now.

[BarelyBreathing]

I completely understand what you're saying. All I'm saying is that at least this store has proper temperature and humidity levels and actually educates their customers about keeping them.

[Bradyloach]

that would be perfect!!!

[Squirtle]

On Tuesday, I will record some footage / take pictures of how my pet store cares for their reptiles. I really have no opinions so I'll let you guys judge.

[Gungirl]

I don't care how any pet store takes care of the animals. I do NOT think that any stores should be able to sell them. Pet stores should sell pet supplies and nothing more.

[Bradyloach]

hmmm i think they should sell beginer reptiles.

its the only way we can get people to share are hobby. We always complain about the new laws being set out, but the only way we can get people opinions to change is to get them involved in the hobby. If pet stores sell example : anoles, Long tailed lizards, some easy species of gechos, a few snake species, like hognose, corn, and maybe a ball python. also maybe a bearded dragon a month or so. People need to realize that reptiles are great pets and each and everyone are VERY rewarding. We need the pet stores to sell beginer lizards so they can get hooked on our hobby. like maybe if they only sold beginner reptiles and to get monitor or a more experianced reptile you need to go a licened breeder. all breeders should have to go through courses to get a liesence and every sale of an advanced reptile should be documented and the owners shiould be monitored for the firsst couple months. hmm what do you guys think?!

[Gungirl]

You want them to sell a rear fang snake but not a Royal? That makes no sense to me.. I agree with the licence part on the breeders behalf but I still do not think pet stores should be able to sell pets. I think they should only be able to sell supplies. That is just my opinion though.

[BarelyBreathing]

Like usual, I agree with Kat on this one.

[Bradyloach]

umm i dont know anything about snakes so i thought they were beginners! my bad! but breeders should have to have a permit

[SpOoKy]

You want them to sell a rear fang snake but not a Royal? That makes no sense to me.. I agree with the licence part on the breeders behalf but I still do not think pet stores should be able to sell pets. I think they should only be able to sell supplies. That is just my opinion though.

+1

I think not allowing pet stores to sell animals would cut down on a LARGE amount of people going in to buy dog food and seeing a snake they think is "cool", but know nothing about.

[millertime89]

+1

I think not allowing pet stores to sell animals would cut down on a LARGE amount of people going in to buy dog food and seeing a snake they think is "cool", but know nothing about.

In the US pet stores can't sell cats or dogs already, it wouldn't be so hard to say "no animals period" unless they're a specialty store that focuses on selling JUST fish (there are a few here) or JUST herps and so on. It would result in an interesting debate.

[Lankyrob]

In the uk shops have to be licensed to sell animals and the staff members have to pass an exam to get their own permit.

However, a local store have been allowed to sell cornsnakes and in general conversation witha permitted staff member hehad noidea a outcorn snakes,how hot the viv should be, how big a preyitem they can eat etc etc :(

[KORBIN5895]

This thread has definitely taken a turn towards the rediculous. How many people here got their first herp from the pet store? How many people here buy their feeders (live) from a pet store? Seriously pet stores open up the world of animals to many people that would've never seen them before. I don't know why we are jumping on our high horse and saying pet stores have no business selling pets. That's is rediculous. The staff at most pet stores is absolutely stupid at most but so is the staff at most Macdonald's and Tim Horton's! Sorry but most high school students just aren't cut out to work with the general public in such demanding jobs.

[mo9e64]

I agree with Korbin5895,not so much as being ridiculous-but shutting down a supply.Don't support shops that you feel are inferior.Word of mouth can effect business.

I agree totally with what Gregg said as well-temporary holding till purchase basic requirements are met-at the good shops.

I always felt that where the petshops have to be more accountable is the importers they support.Importers supply a demand,it's up to petshops to support importers that supply healthy animals.Having healthier animals available in the first place means less transition from petshop to keeper.

If there is no pressure on the importers as to quality-without legislation things won't change.Who really would qualify to tell each individual what you can or cannot keep.I personally think all but the smallest monitors should be banned from export-do you want someone like me in control.Because if you look at it hundred of thousands of lets say Sav's are imported and die so a handful of responsible keeprs can raise a few individuals.

[infernalis]

Because if you look at it hundred of thousands of lets say Sav's are imported and die so a handful of responsible keeprs can raise a few individuals.

Right there!!

Let's not forget the things that happen to the mothers, the stress of all those babies stuffed in a box during transit from Ghana.. etc..

[Gregg M]

its the only way we can get people to share are hobby. We always complain about the new laws being set out, but the only way we can get people opinions to change is to get them involved in the hobby.

This is about the only thing in your post that I agree with.

If pet stores sell example : anoles, Long tailed lizards, some easy species of gechos, a few snake species, like hognose, corn, and maybe a ball python. also maybe a bearded dragon a month or so.

So you consider hognose snakes a beginner species? Put aside the fact that they are rear fanged. Their bites are harmless. The fact that they have a metabolism almost like a varanid, need much more frequent feeding than any other colubrid species, require much higher basking spots, and are not known for being the best feeders in inexperienced hands means they are not a beginner species.

People need to realize that reptiles are great pets and each and everyone are VERY rewarding. We need the pet stores to sell beginer lizards so they can get hooked on our hobby.

Actually, reptiles are not good pets. and there are other ways to get people to respect and come to love reptiles. However, I do not agree that they should not be sold in pet stores. I have seen many pet stores that set their reptiles up very nicely. I also do not agree that only beginner species should be sold in pet shops. I think every legal species should be sold in pet stores as long as their basic needs are met while in the pet store.

like maybe if they only sold beginner reptiles and to get monitor or a more experianced reptile you need to go a licened breeder.

and what would this license intail exactly? What would be the requirements to get the license? We all know that a license is just a way for a State or government to make money when it comes to owning, importing, exporting, or displaying wildlife. I know people who are "licensed" to keep venomous reptiles who in reality, should not even be able to own a corn snake.

all breeders should have to go through courses to get a liesence and every sale of an advanced reptile should be documented and the owners shiould be monitored for the firsst couple months. hmm what do you guys think?!

Really? What kind of course? Who will be giving the course? Who will be enforcing this exactly? What you are talking about would be logistically impossible. Who is going to go and monitor every new keeper for a couple of months?

In the US pet stores can't sell cats or dogs already

Where did you get this information?

[Bradyloach]

Gregg! I'm a rookie :p I just got into herps in general 3 months ago with my sav. I'm just suggesting ideas. I don't know about snakes or really anything. I thought they were beginners. Those are all ideas maybe some of them would work? I don't know but I agree with you now, if there housing them properly they should be able to sell them

[Gregg M]

Gregg! I'm a rookie :p I just got into herps in general 3 months ago with my sav. I'm just suggesting ideas. I don't know about snakes or really anything. I thought they were beginners. Those are all ideas maybe some of them would work? I don't know but I agree with you now, if there housing them properly they should be able to sell them

Ok rookie.:)
I am not saying your ideas are not good. In a perfect world, they would be great.

Its like this new python law. You can not transport them from State to State. In reality, how is this going to be enforced? Are local law enforcement officers going to be trained in how to identify python species just incase they pull someone over who has snakes in the car? Do you think they are really going to care enough to look into it? It is just a silly law. When you ban or restrict things, it does not make the situation any better.

[infernalis]

In the US pet stores can't sell cats or dogs already, it wouldn't be so hard to say "no animals period" unless they're a specialty store that focuses on selling JUST fish (there are a few here) or JUST herps and so on. It would result in an interesting debate.


Every pet store around here has puppies and kittens on display.

[jarich]

Those new laws, like the ones before them, are mostly used after a problem is found Gregg. They arent meant to be enforced all the time, merely to give the cops a chance to nail people they find out are a problem. Sort of like the seatbelt laws in a lot states. Cops wont generally pull you over for not wearing it. But if you were doing 100 mph in a 65 zone and werent wearing your seatbelt, expect to have that seatbelt ticket added on to your speeding one. There are plenty of people illegally selling large snakes here in NYC for instance, and the cops do nothing. But you can bet if they caught some jerk who was a problem for some other reason, they would throw that law at them too.

I think its a good thing honestly, especially as we need to be more self policing. In reference to the original post, if I were to find a breeder that was keeping their animals in poor conditions and they happened to break one of the new laws, Id probably turn them in. There is no real law against keeping these animals in substandard conditions unfortunately, but these new laws may give us ammunition against problem keepers who have no business keeping the animals they have.

[KORBIN5895]

Those new laws, like the ones before them, are mostly used after a problem is found Gregg. They arent meant to be enforced all the time, merely to give the cops a chance to nail people they find out are a problem. Sort of like the seatbelt laws in a lot states. Cops wont generally pull you over for not wearing it. But if you were doing 100 mph in a 65 zone and werent wearing your seatbelt, expect to have that seatbelt ticket added on to your speeding one. There are plenty of people illegally selling large snakes here in NYC for instance, and the cops do nothing. But you can bet if they caught some jerk who was a problem for some other reason, they would throw that law at them too.

I think its a good thing honestly, especially as we need to be more self policing. In reference to the original post, if I were to find a breeder that was keeping their animals in poor conditions and they happened to break one of the new laws, Id probably turn them in. There is no real law against keeping these animals in substandard conditions unfortunately, but these new laws may give us ammunition against problem keepers who have no business keeping the animals they have.

Plus one .....

[Gregg M]

I think its a good thing honestly, especially as we need to be more self policing. In reference to the original post, if I were to find a breeder that was keeping their animals in poor conditions and they happened to break one of the new laws, Id probably turn them in. There is no real law against keeping these animals in substandard conditions unfortunately, but these new laws may give us ammunition against problem keepers who have no business keeping the animals they have.

It also gives special interest groups ammunition against those of us who do things properly. It is not a good thing. Have you ever seen a news report on something good involving reptiles? It is either someone being killed by a snake or someone keeping something they should not be keeping.

[mo9e64]

To me some of the ways reptiles are kept,not you Gregg LOL ,are as a community acceptable but I find substandard.Some here might not meet the requirements to have the animals they have now.Is this the road to take,or is through education.This is not a position,it's just that people here won't necessarily be incontrol of whose standards they follow.

[jarich]

It also gives special interest groups ammunition against those of us who do things properly. It is not a good thing. Have you ever seen a news report on something good involving reptiles? It is either someone being killed by a snake or someone keeping something they should not be keeping.

Ya, I agree its a slippery slope, but that last example is exactly what I mean. I just saw a herp supplier online who sells croc monitors to whomever will buy them, across state lines. Unbelievable. Its that kind of stuff, that we arent self policing, that can easily become problematic. Im not saying that some silly laws like this are going to solve the problem, but they can be useful in certain situations I think.

[Dehlida]

Calling the animal cops is silly- they can't tell or won't know if the animal is fine or not- besides, monitor husbandry is relatively new, who's to say "your" way is correct in everyone's eyes?

If you cared about the animal maybe you would have simply not done business with the guy, but you're still feeding him money anyway ;)