Interesting observations..

[Dom]

I have kept 6 diferent savanah monitor and have come to this conclusion in regards to burrowing..

Every single monitor that I have had, male or female (again only 6 savs lol) that are not stressed out at all or even afraid of ppl do NOT burrow at all .. dig occasionally but have never burrowed..

But the 2 out of 4 savs that has nasty dispositons and that were fairly nervous have build themself several burrows and use them all them time..

This leads me to wonder if the burrows are strickly for security and not trully needed for well aclimatated animals? What are your thoughts on this ..

For example .. 4 weeks ago I got an other Savanah, he was nasty and very nervous .. on the same exact night he built himself a burrow and disapeared .. after a couple of feeding and finally got used to me and movement in the room and now he NEVER burrows? His hole is abandonned..

What are your thoughts on this.. any simillar experiences..

[NiagaraReptiles]

Burrows are used by monitors for many different things, one of which is security. While this is the case, you may also want to take into consideration that all of the Sav's you are basing this theory on were wild caught at some age or another.

Sav's go through a lot to make it here (unless they come from Ravi's place :)) an suffer a lot of stress, both physically and mentally. Is is accurate to think that they still know how to act like they would be in the wild? Extreme physical conditions and stress can have extreme effects on WC monitors. I guess this is why consistant monitor breeding begain with CB dwarfs.......

Food for thought......

JonK

[Steeve B]

Aim glad you broth this up.
This may take a full year for WC but I feel it’s important they feed well and bask in my presence before they are allowed burrows, females that dart in the first hole they see when you come in the room usually don cycle well and lay infertile eggs, and it’s easy to understand why.
Regards

[Ravi]

Hi Dom

Jon brings up some excellent points that are worth thinking about.

In my experience I have seen quite the opposite from you. I've had savs that range in temperment and all of them set about digging burrows when given the opportunity or more importantly, need.

My last clutch of babies were housed on dirt from the beginning (I didn't do this with other clutches) and I was surprised (stupidly) that they started digging after just a few days of age. Their burrows were long too!

Its very facinating to see how many different temperments there are within a clutch

Anyway, getting back to your post........sand monitors are pretty well tempered monitors and they DIG like no other monitor I've seen. They are groundhogs. So really I guess security is just one of the many reasons they do what they do :)

Regards
--Ravi--

[Dom]

Really interesting guys .. You bring ups really good points - especially Steeve ... All i am getting are infertile eggs..


True there all wc . I mean except for u Ravi .. i dunno anyone else who has bred them in Canada.. I have never ever seen a cb Savanah :( Sad to say ..

Do u still breed them? If not why?

[Steeve B]

[Hello Dom just sharing with you here, a good friend now retired and no longer keeping animals except fore his old retriever,
This good man in the early 80s every year hatched exantematicus. maybe someone here knows him Marco Bissallion.
Anyway I know a few monitor breeders that simply don’t visit herp show or forums, in fact I personally never seen a herp show, even worst I never seen an ackie yet.

This photo of a clutch of savannahs is a good example of sex determination; I think everyone can spot the 2 males, can you?
Cheers

IMG]http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jan/20031158145758928784475.jpg[/IMG]

[Steeve B]

sorry here it is...http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jan/20031158145758928784475.jpg

[V.aw]

very informative thread..

I find my albigs borrow but sleep on the surface? It's quite odd. I throw food into their enclosure so they have to dig it up. (mealworms etc) even burry mice sometimes. The female digs and sleeps in the burrow, while the male sleeps usually up high. ( I have a tree in their enclosure)

all of my savannahs burrowed.. Even a juvinile i have now is displaying activity similar to Ravi's note.

[Dom]

I would be guesing the middle top and middle bottom are the males - am I correct ..not the best at sex determination..

[Steeve B]

right on Dom!

Why herpetoculturist like Hans Gorg Horn (just to site a big name) chooses not to use full enclosure deep substrate.
They opted to use an egg box for many obvious advantages;
Ease of changing medium
Ease of controlling temperature gradient and monitoring humidity
Avoiding excessive weight
Monitors will not defecate in there nest box, making the rest of enclosure easy to clean

Problems with full cage substrata are many here’s a few;
Females will often hide deep and by doing so exclude themselves from beneficial basking or even radiant heat, therefore there food intake slows resulting in reabsorbing or poor pregnancy. A problem not seen in box system.
Next in Canada floor temperature drops in winter, even indoors unless you have heated floor.
Also in a 10feet by 10feet pen with 2-3feet of dirt, outside this will last forever with the rain and wind washing it, but indoor you will have to change it, not to mansion the bugs proliferation.
And last borrows do collapse the bigger the monitor the more it will happen.

All my animals have this type of nest box (only females) they never dig other then to lay eggs, witch indicate that a hid place doesn’t need to be a borrow for them. The basing light on top assures a steady temperature gradients in the box, the female will choose the best place to lay usually about 87f is chosen by most monitors and tegus.
Kind regards
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jan/20031155569438839258231.jpg

[Dom]

Thanks for the info Steeve B - would you mind explaining your nest box set up .. So I can see how wrong mine is lol


Thanks

[Dom]

Also, since my males is considerably larger - OVER 3 feet by a bit .. would it be a good idea to have a nesting box that only allows the female to enter but denies the male entry since he is considerably larger?

[Ravi]

Hi Dom

I think the main reason savannahs aren't bred in numbers is simply because the vast majority of them are kept incorrectly in captivity. Many people say that they are not worth the effort because they are not very profitable which is sad too.

I'm still trying to breed my F1 babies that I kept for myself. With any luck I should see some results this year since they are becoming mature and sizable.

Like Steeve says, nesting is very important.

Regards
--Ravi--

[V.aw]

I think the main reason nobody captive breeds savs is simply because they are to cheap to import and cost nothing, they do very well in captivity even when WC, and since alot of people put alot of money into breeding these guys, they would like to get it back in return and the turn around is next to nothing. Pet stores sell WC sav babies for 50-100$ thats dirt cheap compared to most lizards.. Not many people will pay more than 100$ for a CB sav..

[Steeve B]

Hello Dum
The photo I choose of egg box really shows a lot if you pay attention, first notice the 4in hole, there’s one on both ends of the cover males don’t fit in these holes, but if they do they are separated from females. I think it’s better to separate them right after copulation, this for all species, females do better on there own.
No2 Notes that dirt was pushed in one corner, this was deliberate all monitors and tegus do this, they block one of the holes to preserve heat and humidity, when I see one hole covered with dirt that’s a sure singe that egg deposition is coming.
No3 see the water bowl on top well this will be hard to swallow, but they tip it over many time before egg laying why?
They don’t the rest of the year, this suggest they have the ability given a chance to manage incubation parameters.
No4 Dirt? Much debate over this one, my personal experience on this; it doesn’t mater what medium you use, monitors will lay anywhere temperatures and humidity are convenient, same goes for dept they will lay in 4in or 4feet if conditions are right.
I like to cover my dirt with oak leaves it holds humidity and smell good.

My cages are 6 by6 by6 feet and my egg box are 2 by 2 by6 feet built with hydro-resistant ply-wood, the land area is covered with 4-5in of dirt or pin shaving or leaf litter it doesn’t matter, ease of cleaning is my priority.

I don’t always separate smaller species but I do with the big guys if I have to! Some crocs I don’t they get along pretty good.

On a final note hidings? Yes and no, its true that hiding is necessary in wild monitors, but they are not in the wilderness anymore, males are usually not a problem, but females even cb will be more hyper then males, given hiding only prolongs there adaptation, this is something I went thru often, they dig a hole then dart in it at every occasion, reinforcing this surviving skill every times. When raised without hiding these females lose fear of you and feed better, when adult give them a nest box and they will spend much time in them, if your new baby was a female you wouldn’t see it out in the open as much.
Regards

[Dom]

Best of luck on the F1 Ravi - if ever u get some babies .. let me know - i'd be interested..

Ravi and V.aw - u both make very good points and I totallly agree..

And Steeve - i can't thanks you enough .. that was information that I trullly needed ..

Tx everyone .. u have alll been great help - its nice to hav such knoldgable ppl in monitors here .. My husbandry has gotten so much better in the past year regarding monitors..