Monitor enclosure discussion thread

[infernalis]

All I ask is these simple guidelines...

This thread is for discussion of enclosures, Humidity, temps, burrows and substrate.

Any posts made about food will be removed from the thread.

If you wish to discuss something that you read, please cite where, when and the author, if this is from the internet include a link.

Photos are encouraged and always welcome.

[BarelyBreathing]

Wait, so we can't post anything unless it has an author? I'd like to post about my enclosure.

[infernalis]

Wait, so we can't post anything unless it has an author? I'd like to post about my enclosure.

Then that make you the author.

I meant no he said, she said heresay.

[Bradyloach]

quick question, should i put moss or grass all around cassies burrow?

[infernalis]

either will work, expect it to get dug up quick.

[Bradyloach]

but it will give her something to do :D my little girl :O shes 9 inches snout to vent, when i got her she was 4 snout to vent!

[infernalis]

wow.. we can talk circles about diet, but no one wants to talk enclosures... interesting.

[Jay]

quick question, should i put moss or grass all around cassies burrow?

Grass would look awesome, it will get destroyed quick.

[Freebody]

I am in the process of starting my savs new cage atm, his cage now is falling apart, the wood got broken a few months back on the btm , now its taking water in. I drew it up and priced out my stuff, the cage will be 8'x4'x4', sitting on top of a frame made from 12""x4" wood to make the sand/soil box, making it 5 feet total height. later perhaps i will add a a double 12"x4" frame making it 24" deep for the soil, but not right now. I plan to light it with UV light< even know i dont think i needs it, but i figure better safe than sorry,Ill add a few heat lights at different heights so he can pick what temp he wants to bask at. the wood is all 3/4 plywood, ill stain and clear coat the hell out of it making it water proof before i assemble it, so even the joints will be 100% sealed, their will be an inside frame made from 2"x2", im picking up the double pane house window this weekend, 6'x 3" slider, white frame almost new for half the price at some demolition resale place i found :) Im going to make it so the roof can be pulled off, ill just make a sub frame to site on the roo and slide between the walls on the top of the cage, so it cant be bumped and slide off, that way its easy to just jump in the cage to clean it, instead of haveing to crawl in the front and clean it on my hand and knees like i have to do now lol. the things we do for are pets eh :P oh and ill make sure to use something eco freindly for clear coat, and most likly seal the joints after with aquarium glue or somthing like that. Any tips would be nice while the cage is still on paper? :P

[BarelyBreathing]

It all sounds really good except for the substrate depth. Savannah monitors need 18-24" of substrate, not 12".

[Freebody]

i know, but 12" is whats its getting for now, i will most likley have a few inches of soil past that as well. untill i move out, my hand is forced, folkes dont want that much weight in the cage, in their house. by the time yoshy needs the full 24" ill own my own house and get to do what ever i want with it.

[BarelyBreathing]

Why would you purposefully build a sub-standard enclosure? It wouldn't be difficult to double the amount of substrate. You wouldn't even have to increase the height.

[Freebody]

no, it very easy to add a section on, take 4 12" x 2" peices, screw them together, take 1/4" by 2" steal, drill 2 holes, 1 in each side and bobs you uncle, you got a 24"x2" sub frame, it will be the same as if i did it the first time, 12" in the widest you can buy 2" wood if im correct.

[BarelyBreathing]

What?...................

[KORBIN5895]

His base will be two 12" inch sections joined by a steel rod to hold them in place.

[BarelyBreathing]

What is "bobs you uncle"?

[KORBIN5895]

It translates into " there you go"

[BarelyBreathing]

I can't say I've ever heard that phrase before.

[KORBIN5895]

I honestly didn't think you had.

[Hail3gh]

The substrate thing still baffles me... It is springtime now and I was able to give Olive more. It is up to about a foot and a half.. Now he seems unhappy he will not walk around much and hides in his little man cave... He comes out to bask but just lays there... The substate has only been added for 3 days and I'm hoping he just has to get used to it. My question is could it be possible that not all monitor lizards are going to behave the same way and need the same type of set up. So for one Person 2 feet of sub is needed but for another like myself just a waste of space.. Don't get me wrong I am going to leave it there for a while and see how it goes, but he seemed so much happier before...

[infernalis]

They prefer to hide in burrows.

[Hail3gh]

So you think that because I made a spot for him to hide... Out of wood and he loves it in there would make it so he does not feel he needs to make a burrow and is happy with his. Olive has been handled everyday since birth. The pet store I bought him from has volunteers that come in and handle the pets.. Olive does not feel any fear in my house, he walks up to my dogs and cats will climb over the dogs, walk up the couch if he hears my voice... I feel he does not feel the need to hide. I open up his door he comes right to me, if not I can put my hand in and pick him up he will not fight me or run. I never trained Olive he has always been 100 percent happy with people. So in conclussion I say maybe every Monitor is different and not everyone needs the same type of enclosure.

[BarelyBreathing]

Have you raised the top of the enclosure? He could be feeling a little cramped.

[Freebody]

I think every monitor needs the same standards for a cage, but i think some will utalize the offered soil more than others imho. and Barleybreathing, Bobs your uncle is a very old english term, not so much used on ower side of the water :)

[jarich]

Wasnt there a song about it in Mary Poppins?

[Freebody]

So, im sure everyone has read minimum cage size for a sav is 6'x4'x4' to 8"x4'x4'. How does everyone feel about the 6 foot cage as an option? I feel bad im going to just have an 8' cage, i could not imagine a 6' for a 3.5' lizard? i think bare Min should be 8'

[Freebody]

not sure, i loved that show as a kid, i should remember if their was. I dont think so but i know **** van dike says it a few times in that show.

[BarelyBreathing]

I think every monitor needs the same standards for a cage, but i think some will utalize the offered soil more than others imho. and Barleybreathing, Bobs your uncle is a very old english term, not so much used on ower side of the water :)

I see. I actually had an uncle Bob. That's sort of freaky...


So, im sure everyone has read minimum cage size for a sav is 6'x4'x4' to 8"x4'x4'. How does everyone feel about the 6 foot cage as an option? I feel bad im going to just have an 8' cage, i could not imagine a 6' for a 3.5' lizard? i think bare Min should be 8'

I completely agree. In fact, I've been telling people that the minimum enclosure SHOULD be three times the length of the animal in length, and twice the length of the animal in width.

[Freebody]

ya 3 would be real nice, lizards move too much to be in such small enclosures.

[crocdoc]

'Bob's your uncle' is still in very common usage in Australia. As Korbin said, it is used in the same way as 'there you go'. Essentially it means 'after that, everything will work out fine'. For example, if you were telling someone how to fix their car, you might say "adjust this bit here, tighten that bit there and then Bob's your uncle".

When I first arrived in Australia the language was absolutely loaded with idioms and colloquialisms, some holdovers from the English (such as 'Bob's your uncle') but most unique to Australia. For me it was almost like learning a new language. Many have been pretty much lost through urbanisation and globalisation, which is a shame as they really added colour to the language.

[Freebody]

my dad says them all the time, funny thing is he was the only child on his side who was born in canada, and the only one who has never been to england, yet he speak with a slight accent and says these funny term. Spot of tea, neds your nanny, spot on, go to the lue....... i used to tease him about it but all these years later i have turned into my old man lol

[Freebody]

Another question for thread, If your going to house 2 savs in 1 cage, what are some thoughts on cage size for adults?

[Lankyrob]

Another question for thread, If your going to house 2 savs in 1 cage, what are some thoughts on cage size for adults?


And following on to this would 2 together "entertain" each other (like having two dogs instead of one) or is there concern about fighting/domination issues?

[infernalis]

Going with the flow, if it turns out I have a pair, then I will enlarge the enclosure in a year or two, if they are same sex but get along, same thing.

If they fight, a new cage will be built.

[Freebody]

I was just thinking in terms of size of the cage if people had them together, just looking at your pics wayne gave me the idea to ask, im sure others out thier have sav housed together.

[rullom]

Can everyone give their input on substrate types/combos used. I know there should be a mix of sand/bark/leaf litter, but is this only for humidity optimization or is there other reasons for not using just bark.
What does everyone think of cutting a hole at the bottom of the tank....placing a screen and then layering it from bottom to top : Large stones, smaller stones, pebbles, dirt, bark. Then you would have a perfect drainage system and could simulate a rain cycle and not have to clean your cage much if at all. Do you think its practical? Of course you would have to tie your cage into your plumbing. I've always wanted to set up a perfect ecosystem so that it was self sustaining. I hate worrying about mold and disease. Does anyone have any comments on disease/ salmonella etc form their feces? How possible is it etc.

[Bradyloach]

60/40 Eco earth and childrens play sand. Holds a burrow well

[BarelyBreathing]

What Brady suggested is exactly what I use, with leaf litter on top. It allows for burrowing and egg laying (if you have a female), cover, humidity, and enrichment.

I haven't had a problem with substrate molding, or becoming too wet.

[rullom]

Is eco earth by zoo med or something? Sand wise should I buy that sand that they sell for bearded dragons?.....then mix the two or keep the layers. I was thinking with a heat mat it might be better to keep layers but for burrowing i should mix. As a side note how wet do you need that sand because it seems like it will not hold a burrow very well.

[infernalis]

What we do is mix to create a "sandy soil" like what you see in Florida.

http://www.varanus.us/SitePic/burrow.jpg

Eco Earth is the name for Cocounut fiber animal bedding, sold in bricks.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p-261602-vendor-repttile.jpg

Stir it together, However I use creek bank topsoil and it holds moisture and burrows well.

[shaunyboy]

Bobs your uncle is a very old english term, not so much used on ower side of the water :)

^^^^^
its also grown into.....

" and Roberts your mothers brother " = bob's your uncle ;):D

cheers shaun:)

[varanus_mad]

Well you did say humidity... p.s. sorry for stepping on your turf wayne LOL

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Hornby
Posts: 9,623


http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Monitors and dehydration:
Despite the massive leaps in monitor husbandry a lot of beginners to varanid keeping in general are not getting why we keep humidity high for monitors.

Dehydration i dont know exactly how varanids lose moisure but they do and a lot of there behaviour is built around conserving and preventing this moisture loss.

Ill start with using a CF pet shop bosc for obvious reasons:

Bosc hatches in ghana moved to a holding container with no access to water of any kind.

Bosc spends a few days like this in transport before arriving at a pet shop.
A typical temporary bosc setup for a monitor in a petshop consists of woodchips a very low basking temperature a lot of ventilation and a water bowl.

Bosc bought by a bloke of the street takes it home based on pet shop advice 125f basking spot 75f cool end woodchip substrate and a low humidity...

Kept like this the bosc will proberly live at least a few years because they are extremely hardy animals and can take a lot of punishment but eventually it will kill them plain and simple.

I would say this about the average fate of most imported monitors regardless of species.

Now what can we do about it?

Deep Substrates

Typically i and a lot of keepers use soil/sand 75/25 good ratio to aim for holds a burrow well and is good for humidity...
Now then Depth:

- If your monitor can not bury itself completely in your substrate its not deep enough
- If it doesnt stay damp deep down for a long time its useless and just as bad as woodchips.
- If it wont hold a burrow its a waste of time how can your monitor build a home in it if it wont stay together?

Vents seal em up they allow all of the humidity to leave the vivarium extremely quickly and guess what it takes moisture out of your monitors system with it this is not naturally how a monitor loses moisture and causes dehydration.

Now then a frequent response to this is what about oxygen? Well what about it? unless youve built your viv totally air tight your monitor can breath no problem.

Humidity guages are great at telling you one thing what that humidity is right in one spot.

Seal your bathroom up wack the heating on full and run a bath Hot, humid sticky uncomfortable right? when you open the door to your viv if that heat and humidity does not smack you in the face... your vivs to dry.

Despite the massive leaps in monitor husbandry a lot of beginners to varanid keeping in general are not getting why we keep humidity high for monitors.

Dehydration i dont know exactly how varanids lose moisure but they do and a lot of there behaviour is built around conserving and preventing this moisture loss.

Ill start with using a CF pet shop bosc for obvious reasons:

Bosc hatches in ghana moved to a holding container with no access to water of any kind.

Bosc spends a few days like this in transport before arriving at a pet shop.
A typical temporary bosc setup for a monitor in a petshop consists of woodchips a very low basking temperature a lot of ventilation and a water bowl.

Bosc bought by a bloke of the street takes it home based on pet shop advice 125f basking spot 75f cool end woodchip substrate and a low humidity...

Kept like this the bosc will proberly live at least a few years because they are extremely hardy animals and can take a lot of punishment but eventually it will kill them plain and simple.

I would say this about the average fate of most imported monitors regardless of species.

Now what can we do about it?

Deep Substrates

Typically i and a lot of keepers use soil/sand 75/25 good ratio to aim for holds a burrow well and is good for humidity...
Now then Depth:

- If your monitor can not bury itself completely in your substrate its not deep enough
- If it doesnt stay damp deep down for a long time its useless and just as bad as woodchips.
- If it wont hold a burrow its a waste of time how can your monitor build a home in it if it wont stay together?

Vents seal em up they allow all of the humidity to leave the vivarium extremely quickly and guess what it takes moisture out of your monitors system with it this is not naturally how a monitor loses moisture and causes dehydration.

Now then a frequent response to this is what about oxygen? Well what about it? unless youve built your viv totally air tight your monitor can breath no problem.

Humidity guages are great at telling you one thing what that humidity is right in one spot.

Seal your bathroom up wack the heating on full and run a bath Hot, humid sticky uncomfortable right? when you open the door to your viv if that heat and humidity does not smack you in the face... your vivs to dry.

Author: Shane R. Hoggarth.

[varanus_mad]

Big subject this one first ill start with the basics:

The types of temperatures and there differences:

First ambient temperatures:

The temperature of the environment surrounding an object measured using a bog standard thermometer.

Surface temperatures the temperature of the face of an object the actual temperature of an object these need to be measured using an infra-red temperature gun a bog standard thermometer with a probe will measure the ambient temperature surrounding the object not the actual temperature of said object.

Typically an ambient temperature will be lower than a surface temperature, e.g. sand on a beach on a very hot day can be hot enough to burn your skin instantly yet your body doesnt cook from merely walking around in the surrounding air.

Substrate temperatures - simply the temperature of your substrate and thus the temperature surrounding your monitor when in a burrow.

Basking temperature well self explanatory really


Monitors are not like other lizards in some ways they are amongst some of the most simple and the most complicated.

Where they differ from most lizards is there ability to exceed other lizards metabolic rates and activity levels they have a couple of adaptions which allows them to do this.

So higher metabolic rates have higher demands than other lizards.

As a result of this monitors utilise higher basking temperatures than the majority of lizard species.

That being said like other lizards they still need a range of temperatures to operate normally.

Basking temperature a good range is 130f to 150f cooler than this and you wont see it straight away but they are unable to metabolise food proberly and leads to a slow death in these animals.

Ambient temperatures:

90f hot end
cool end 80f

Substrate temperatures now these are often overlooked because as humans we only walk on the ground we dont live in it where as monitors live in and out of burrows.

These substrate temperatures are of perticular importance in the UK simply because our climate does not get warm enough to sustain mass temperatures so they drop of very fast perticularly in un-insulated large enclosures with a large substrate mass so when heating a large cage we need to pay attention to these temperatures as well and to try and create a vertical temperature gradient more than likely this will naturally occur anyway but care must be taken to manage the cooler temperatures anything below 70f and most monitors wont bother leaving there burrow they simply wont have the energy to do so.

A good practice is to insulate the bottom of the cage to prevent the ground temperatures from leaching away the heat your trying to built up in the substrate.

A good range of substrate temperatures are similar to ambients but a bit cooler in certain spots. 70f to 90f.

Substrate temperatures are important for another reason nesting female monitors take a great deal of care selecting a nest site so maintaining these temperatures are paramount for the female to succesfully choose a nesting site.


There are many methods of heating vivariums

Ceramics
Lights
Tube heaters

In smaller vivariums you can get away with just using basking lights.

In most homes however a secondary heat source is required.

Personally my preferred method is to use a heating tube positioned just above the substrate usually heating tube and basking light at the same end of the vivarium a heating tube roughly 2/3rds of the size of the cage is a good bet larger cages may need two or more tube heaters to achieve the desired temperatures.

This area does require a lot of experimentation i would advice setting up the vivaria a month before moving the monitor in and experiment with heating the vivaria adding or removing heat sources as needed.

[infernalis]

Good stuff mate! Thanks.

[rullom]

Can you actually help me with this heating tube idea. How could I set one up because I want to heat my floor a bit....am not happy with the heating mat.

[infernalis]

There is several ways to floor heat a larger enclosure.

Look up radiant floor heating, it involves pumping hot water through a long plastic pipe under the floor of the cage.

It's commonly used in household heating (like bathrooms with heated floors)

Also, Heating mats for human use are excellent.

http://www.discountramps.com/images/heated-floor-mat-4.jpg?w=300&h=300

[rullom]

yes but you mentioned a "tube" heater. Is that a fish tank tube heater? and where do you place it? Is it inside the substrate or dangling off the glass wall?
Also these heat tracks... are they ok to be placed under the "plastic" rim of the bottom o the tank?

[Caylan]

I've always been interested in owning a monitor lizard, and of all the species its hard to pick just one. But knowing the requirements of a monitor, and that they are NOT snakes, and cannot be cared for in any similar manner really, I have stayed back as I don't necessarily have all that much time to myself occasionally. Soon though, things will be more organised and I'd like to look into getting a slightly larger lizard again(I had a bearded dragon for a few years a while back) and have recently fallen in love with the Kimberly Rock Monitor. Of course information is scarce at best when it comes to monitors, let alone certain specific species, but probably half of contradicts the other half so its rather difficult for me to pick a way to go about this. I know that Kimberly's aren't Sav's, but I constantly hear monitor care is pretty much a standard throughout, so I thought I would come here with some questions...
Firstly, With the Kimberly Rock monitors being more arboreal, would a 12" substrate be suifficient with enough climbing room? Or do arboreal monitors still like to burrow deep? Either way I gotta put a new retaining wall up in the cage I want to start with, just wondering how high it should be as it starts cutting into the height as the top is already attached. In which case I ditch that enclosure idea all together and start fresh with something else lol. Its a nice 6'Lx2'D'x4'H that I think would suit a young monitor for a little while at least. Or is it better to give them their adult enclosure right off the bat maybe??
Next thing I have questions about is lights and humidity. I can quite easily place a light fixture in the cage, or on top, but I have never really used lights as they dry my enclosures out way too much(Kelowna is on the tip of a desert believe it or not) so personally I can't stand them. Would a radient heat panel and a UV light be sufficient? I suppose all the extra substrate helps keep the humidity up, but I'd feel safer with a heat panel anyway. Then comes substrate heating... how do you heat up 24" of substrate with a UTH of any kind? Or is the burrow meant to be cool? Sorry for all the disorganised questions, thanks for the thread Wayne! :D

[rullom]

I don't think you want an enclosure too big when they are small because they need to find their food but i could be wrong. I am not a monitor pro but with other chams and such that was definitely the case....so I don't see why it wouldn't be the same but wait for other experienced replies

[Bradyloach]

Monitors will always find there food. A baby monitor can be in a 10x10 ft cage if it's set up properly. A lot of hides and cover are a MUST :)

[infernalis]

I don't think you want an enclosure too big when they are small because they need to find their food but i could be wrong. I am not a monitor pro but with other chams and such that was definitely the case....so I don't see why it wouldn't be the same but wait for other experienced replies

I know this guy who is raising a pair of baby monitors in this really big size enclosure, and his always find the food just fine.


I heard it's good stimulation for the animals to hunt for their prey.

[varanus_mad]

I know this guy who is raising a pair of baby monitors in this really big size enclosure, and his always find the food just fine.


I heard it's good stimulation for the animals to hunt for their prey.

Yes and i know of a bloke raising up two boscs in an 8 by 4 by 4... :D

[varanus_mad]

yes but you mentioned a "tube" heater. Is that a fish tank tube heater? and where do you place it? Is it inside the substrate or dangling off the glass wall?
Also these heat tracks... are they ok to be placed under the "plastic" rim of the bottom o the tank?

I mentioned a tube heater this sort of thing:

Sunhouse Tube Heaters With Fitted Plug :: Tubular Heaters :: Tubular Heating :: Heaters :: CNM Online (http://www.cnmonline.co.uk/Sunhouse-Tube-Heaters-With-Fitted-Plug-pr-33792.html)

i wouldnt have a clue where to start looking for these in the US but they are extremely common over here...

cheap and they dont get hot enough to burn to touch.

Heat a large area very efficiently.

[varanus_mad]

Kims same as ackies just bigger.

15" id go for personally a few of my felllow UK keepers have had issues using shallower substrate depths and have had nesting issues.

Heating the substrate what are your ambient temperatures in your house on the floor?

[jarich]

I know this guy who is raising a pair of baby monitors in this really big size enclosure, and his always find the food just fine.


I heard it's good stimulation for the animals to hunt for their prey.

Ha! Ive heard of that guy too! :D

Monitors are much different than chameleons. You want them moving! The more they have to search for their food, the better in my opinion. Keep them active as much as possible.

[jarich]

I mentioned a tube heater this sort of thing:

Sunhouse Tube Heaters With Fitted Plug :: Tubular Heaters :: Tubular Heating :: Heaters :: CNM Online (http://www.cnmonline.co.uk/Sunhouse-Tube-Heaters-With-Fitted-Plug-pr-33792.html)

i wouldnt have a clue where to start looking for these in the US but they are extremely common over here...

cheap and they dont get hot enough to burn to touch.

Heat a large area very efficiently.

These are awesome; never even seen these before.

[varanus_mad]

These are awesome; never even seen these before.

There cracking cheap to buy cheap to run... and they dont get crazy hot either.

[KORBIN5895]

I actually is looking for some now. They seem way better than a rhp.

[varanus_mad]

I actually is looking for some now. They seem way better than rhp.

whats an rhp?

[Lankyrob]

Radiant Heat Panel

[mo9e64]

Raising baby monitors in an adult enclosure as a beginner is that really a responsible thing to be encouraging.The reason i heard to use smaller enclosure is it's easier to control conditions and feeding.Not that the monitors can't find the food but that it is more accessible.A small cage isn't too small for a small monitor-who has heard of there being a problem using smaller enclosures for baby monitors.They can get plenty of exercise and stimulation in a smaller cage-if you want to do it, fine-but is it better?

[infernalis]

Raising baby monitors in an adult enclosure as a beginner is that really a responsible thing to be encouraging.The reason i heard to use smaller enclosure is it's easier to control conditions and feeding.Not that the monitors can't find the food but that it is more accessible.A small cage isn't too small for a small monitor-who has heard of there being a problem using smaller enclosures for baby monitors.They can get plenty of exercise and stimulation in a smaller cage-if you want to do it, fine-but is it better?

One of the worst "human" traits we posses is procrastination, everyone does it sooner or later.

So why tempt a beginner with a small cage they are going to have to rebuild, improve on or upgrade every few months?

Why not start right out from day one with the proper box??

then that "I'll get around to it sooner or later" bug can't bite.

[red ink]

Any Odatria keepers out there? It has nearly been a decade since I have kept them and I'm looking to getting back into it...

I just offered my V. gillenis a standard 4x2x2 and I would like to know if any thing has been improved on or if there's new husbandry techniques out there these days.

[Bradyloach]

I have a question and dont feel like making another thread. Umm I got these 2 big logs for cassies new cage whenever it gets here. hopefully sooner than later. But ive seen a couple ants in these logs, should i do anything to these logs before i put them in? or are they good? i have a feeling cassie will eat all of the ants anyways. no pesticides were used in the area

[varanus_mad]

I have a question and dont feel like making another thread. Umm I got these 2 big logs for cassies new cage whenever it gets here. hopefully sooner than later. But ive seen a couple ants in these logs, should i do anything to these logs before i put them in? or are they good? i have a feeling cassie will eat all of the ants anyways. no pesticides were used in the area


personalyl brady id just chuck a load of boiling water over em.

[Bradyloach]

Alrighty i will deff do that! thank you :D any tips for my new enclosure? it will be 8x4. what should i use for the water bowl? and whats an easy method for changing it?

[mo9e64]

Wayne I know where you coming from.But starting with the smaller cages is easier,in the planning stages the adult cage should be in the works.The reality is most beginners will tire quickly and get out of monitors,those that will stay will do the right things.The philosophy that i was taught is to make things less complicated so you enjoy your monitor more,I know that having your Sav's in the large cage for you is enyoyable,and working for you so far-but thats from a bit more understanding how elements work together.If you take some of the shy species like mine,they'll just hide and not be such a positive experience.

[infernalis]

These little ones do their share of hiding..

Just like any coin, there is always two sides.

[Little Wise Owl]

.The reality is most beginners will tire quickly and get out of monitors,those that will stay will do the right things..

In the slight chance that a beginner may actually read caresheet like Wayne's and see a young monitors' requirement for such a large enclosure may discourage their will to buy a monitor in the first place... Or maybe that's just wishful thinking :p

Most would not want to buy a monitor if the recommendation for a starting enclosure be the adult product.

I personally don't see an issue with such a large enclosure in the first place. I think the animal would be more comfortable with the large space offering plenty of hiding spots rather than a smaller one offering 1-3 hiding spots.

If you take some of the shy species like mine,they'll just hide and not be such a positive experience.

If the animal wants to hide, then why take that away from them?


Just my two cents, I guess.

[mo9e64]

Brady, options for a water bowl are endless,you can use a small one that is easier to clean and change or a larger one that a monitor can get into.My opinion is Sav's don't sit in their cage and think they need a large water container,they will just use it if it's there.I use a smaller container that i can clean quickly and easily ,the size of a medium dog dish.There is no right or wrong size as long as they have access to clean fresh water.

[mo9e64]

Little Wise Owl,irresponsible people are going to buy monitors.Those that are serious need good advice to get them started with their baby monitors-Wayne is giving bad advice to beginners-you get practice on the smaller cage to see how things work.Unlike what Wayne will imply you can't just build an adult cage without first hand experience and expect it to be adequate.What proof is there that beginners should start with an adult cage,let's start there.

[infernalis]

What proof is there that beginners should start with an adult cage,let's start there.

Proof is named "Littlefoot" and "Cera" who's lives are chronicled daily via photography.

Now to prove otherwise rests with you.. submit YOUR proof.

Where is your daily chronicle proving that a large cage is detrimental to raising babies??

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/91028-littlefoot-cera-new-video-pictures.html

320 posts, 4,951 views..... Front page of the Reptile Report TWICE

So please submit yours. What you don't have one??

Your theory is nothing more than conjecture otherwise.

[BarelyBreathing]

I have to agree here. There is no proof saying that monitors shouldn't be in larger enclosures, even as babies. As long as the enclosure is well set up

[Gregg M]

Where is your daily chronicle proving that a large cage is detrimental to raising babies??


Wayne, I love what you have provided for your little savs. You have gone way beyond what even some seasoned varanid keepers provide for juviniles.

I do not think anyone is say it is detrimental to provide large cages like that for young animals. In my opinion it is not a must.

[varanus_mad]

Moe

wayne.

This is one of those things... thats fully debatable and while there are some good points its kind of irrelevant so long as... the enclosure fully supports the monitors needs be it baby or adult.

Which quite frankly... we can all agree most fail miserably.

[mo9e64]

You can't transfer experience through a care sheet, you can just say 'setup your cage right'-this is dillusional.Wayne did not start his experience with monitors this way,and all the same imformation to be sucessful was at his disposal-I hope that this time round he has better sucess,and i suspect he will.

[varanus_mad]

Mo im failing to see what your point is...

[mo9e64]

Everybody is saying a large cage if setup properly can be used for baby monitors,which i agree is possible.That's assuming a beginner can set up an adult cage properly-having setup an adult enclosure their can be problems not encounted using smaller cages.My point is mostly why do something which unless understood or experienced is not really better than using a smaller easier to control smaller cage.

Hopefully that makes sense-don't worry i won't ramble anymore about this

[infernalis]

I would also like to know how to provide such a wide thermal / humidity gradient with a small cage.

Most of us spend enough time preaching large cages till we're blue in the face.

[rullom]

I know you guys probably don't care to see what I have to say but I have extensive experience in reptiles other than monitors and the basic reason for not using a large cage is simply for the inability to find food. If this is combated as wayne mentioned to me earlier with a dish or so (which monitors will use) then the large cage is fine. Larger enclosures do not fluctuate as much as small ones do which can be a benefit. What moe is arguing for I think is that small cages are easier to start for beginning hobbyists and this is true. It takes much more time to see if a large cage is working properly... Small cages can hit temps and conditions that you need much sooner than large cages during variable changes, and this should also warn you that the changes in opposite direction can also occur as fast if something fails. This is all that I have to say.

[varanus_mad]

I would also like to know how to provide such a wide thermal / humidity gradient with a small cage.

Most of us spend enough time preaching large cages till we're blue in the face.

you can do that with a retes stack... plus they also increase the usable space available for monitors.

[varanus_mad]

Everybody is saying a large cage if setup properly can be used for baby monitors,which i agree is possible.That's assuming a beginner can set up an adult cage properly-having setup an adult enclosure their can be problems not encounted using smaller cages.My point is mostly why do something which unless understood or experienced is not really better than using a smaller easier to control smaller cage.

Hopefully that makes sense-don't worry i won't ramble anymore about this

your also assuming they can set up a small cage proberly... LOL

[varanus_mad]

I know you guys probably don't care to see what I have to say but I have extensive experience in reptiles other than monitors and the basic reason for not using a large cage is simply for the inability to find food. If this is combated as wayne mentioned to me earlier with a dish or so (which monitors will use) then the large cage is fine. Larger enclosures do not fluctuate as much as small ones do which can be a benefit. What moe is arguing for I think is that small cages are easier to start for beginning hobbyists and this is true. It takes much more time to see if a large cage is working properly... Small cages can hit temps and conditions that you need much sooner than large cages during variable changes, and this should also warn you that the changes in opposite direction can also occur as fast if something fails. This is all that I have to say.

lol i always find that argument ammusing ive never seen a reptile starve to death because it couldnt find its food.

How do they survive in the wild then? there good at finding food... hell a lot better than the average human would be.

[infernalis]

lol i always find that argument ammusing ive never seen a reptile starve to death because it couldnt find its food.

How do they survive in the wild then? there good at finding food... hell a lot better than the average human would be.


Best thing I read all day.

They can smell an earthworm below a foot of soil, and dig it up to eat it as well.

[mo9e64]

So as a beginner Varanus Mad you would recommend starting a baby monitor in an adult cage?

Rullom,your opinion is as valuable as anyones on here-don't be afraid to comment.

[jarich]

I would disagree Moe, and the reason is that for the requirements of monitors, I think it is actually easier to accomplish in a larger enclosure. One of the most essential parts of the enclosure is deep substrate and high humidity levels. The deeper the substrate is, the easier it is to control humidity and keep it constant within the enclosure at the proper levels. The smaller the enclosure, the less substrate you can provide. Now for the experienced keeper this isn't as problematic as we are aware of the exact humidity requirements and how best to keep them up. However for a newbie, the easiest way is to provide a whole lot of moist substrate, which means a nice 3-4 ft high cage at least.

The longer the enclosure, as Wayne mentioned, the easier it is to provide the proper heat gradients. This is again especially true for a newbie, who will normally buy a nice, big 100-150 watt bulb or higher. Thus the longer enclosure of 5 feet or more allows the animal to get away from the high heat created by such a big bulb. (A retes stack will help, but its still compensatory in this case.) Even without a high watt bulb, its easier to get the basking spot temps needed and a good cool end temp in a longer enclosure. So now we are at around a 6 ft long by 4 ft high enclosure, which is pretty close to an adult enclosure anyway.

Also, enrichment and exercise are always good for them, no matter what age. Making your monitor search for its food is a good thing. Again, the larger cage wins hands down in those two criteria.

With the other parameters there seems little difference I can see between a small or large cage. I think the only 'easier' part of a smaller enclosure is the space required to keep it in and the money it costs the keeper. Im not saying these aren't things to consider, just that they aren't based on the needs of the monitor.

So my question is, what exactly is easier to control in a smaller cage? It sounds like something you've heard, but not really digested enough to say what specifically makes it simpler. So those of you that think smaller is better, what is simpler for new people to control within a smaller enclosure?

[mo9e64]

i started with my babies in a small cage with no problem getting proper heat and humidity gradients,the fact that some of you think this starting baby monitors in small raise up cages is some new novel idea i find quite odd.As many have been doing it and recommending it for quite some time-

[infernalis]

About the only reason I can think of is to make it easier for that newb keeper to handle their animals..

Let's face it, it's easier to grab them up in a smaller box.

[rullom]

well its not that they "may" starve to death (In the wild i think < 30% survive to adulthood). I could be slightly off there but it is low (eggs to adult). We try to simulate ideal conditions so we won't' necessarily see them starve but we want to ensure the exact amount of proper diet that is ideal. Again dishes will work with this species

[rullom]

To Jarich
to respond what i had mentioned earlier the other thing beneficial with a smaller cage is that if you are off in temp/humidity you can achieve it quite quickly with small adjustments.... In a large cage this could take hrs to see and you may not be right so trouble shooting can take too long....(early prep is required of course). Smaller cages can be adjusted within minutes.

[varanus_mad]

To Jarich
to respond what i had mentioned earlier the other thing beneficial with a smaller cage is that if you are off in temp/humidity you can achieve it quite quickly with small adjustments.... In a large cage this could take hrs to see and you may not be right so trouble shooting can take too long....(early prep is required of course). Smaller cages can be adjusted within minutes.

You dont need minutes... or even hours to adjust stuff.

killing a varanid takes years of bad care not a few days of off temps and humidity, babies are just as hardy as the adults the only difference is they cool down and heat up faster they can still take the lower temps the adults can handle.
Thats why they survive so long in a jerky box...

Safely down to around 65f body temp theyll still survive quite a while... since most houses have a room temp of 75f...

[mo9e64]

Some monitors can take years of abuse-like Savs.Forest Monitors,Tree Monitors many wildcaught animals farm bred or not may not take even short periods of abuse.Other than that i agree with what Varanus Mad said.

[varanus_mad]

Some monitors can take years of abuse-like Savs.Forest Monitors,Tree Monitors many wildcaught animals farm bred or not may not take even short periods of abuse.Other than that i agree with what Varanus Mad said.

Probably a few months or so of dehydration for those guys... thats what i reckon anyway...
That being said ive seen all of these species kept with a similar substandard of care... and hung on in there a few years...

[infernalis]

Some monitors can take years of abuse-like Savs.Forest Monitors,Tree Monitors many wildcaught animals farm bred or not may not take even short periods of abuse.Other than that i agree with what Varanus Mad said.

Tell us about this farm bred, I'm really curious how that works??

[mo9e64]

You know how it works,gravid wildfemales are captured and the eggs are incubated then sold.Their term not mine.Rulloms' Melinus would probably been farm hatched or bred.

[rullom]

yes thats what the store figured because they received like 15 babies so it would be unlikely that babies were wild caught

[mo9e64]

When it really comes down to it there are many ways to get the same results.You have to decide where you can take short cuts(the good kind that create less work and benefits the monitor)or take the longer route(more work,that if it's enjoyable who cares go for it as long as the animal doesn't suffer for it)

Where we run in to disagreements is where people can't differentiate between lazy and efficiency.Someone said that one reason to use smaller cages is because they are cheaper,that is a benefit and one of many pro's,but that doesn't make you cheap or a bad keeper.

[jarich]

i started with my babies in a small cage with no problem getting proper heat and humidity gradients,the fact that some of you think this starting baby monitors in small raise up cages is some new novel idea i find quite odd.As many have been doing it and recommending it for quite some time-

Ah, a very honest response and the only reason so far that makes sense. YOU did it that way, so your perspective and experience is what you recommend to others. A fair point, because it worked for you. However, that does not always make it the simplest way or right. I don't think anyone thinks its new or novel, but it's always good to rethink things too.

[mo9e64]

I didn't say it was the right way i said it's an easier way for beginners.If i hadn't done both ways that is setting up both raise up cages and an adult cage i would not have given an opinion-which has been repeated by others(not here obviously).You are right though it is from my perspective having done both.Jarich,what is your experience having setup up your initial cage and the one for an adult Sav?

[infernalis]

Chomper had 3 "grow up cages" because he grew so fast...

So I have done it BOTH ways, and in my honest opinion, the larger cage makes more sense, as my lizards are using every inch of real estate that I am offering them.

[Little Wise Owl]

While there are some pros to starting small, I personally think it's a waste of money because you'd need to build or find a custom enclosure that'll meet their humidity/digging needs.

[bushsnake]

Chomper had 3 "grow up cages" because he grew so fast...

So I have done it BOTH ways, and in my honest opinion, the larger cage makes more sense, as my lizards are using every inch of real estate that I am offering them.
nice Wayne!

[Gregg M]

So I have done it BOTH ways, and in my honest opinion, the larger cage makes more sense

Now that all depends Wayne. I agree with you to a point. However, when you are a breeder and you are hatching a couple of dozen varanids, proper raise up cages are both easy and beneficial to set up. It would make no sense at all to let a clutch of ackies or gillens go in a 4x2x2 cage. It makes much more sense to house them in much smaller raise up cages in very small groups as you can keep a close eye on everything from eating to crapping.

I think the same rules can apply even if you are not breeding. If you aquire a few baby Varanus whatevers, you can easily use smaller raise up cages. Or you can do what you have done and house juvies in a properly set up adult cage. Personally, I like to make sure everyone is doing what they are supposed to be doing and acting how they should be acting before I drop them in a huge cage. It is piece of mind for me and it is not detrimental to the growing varanids.

While there are some pros to starting small, I personally think it's a waste of money because you'd need to build or find a custom enclosure that'll meet their humidity/digging needs.

While I am in no way suggesting that one should keep their monitors in a glass aquarium for any extended length of time, with the proper modifications, they can make very suitable TEMPORARY raise up cages and can support all the heat, humidity and digging needs of a juvinile varanid. So there really is no need to find or build a custome cage to use as a raise up cage.

[infernalis]

Now that all depends Wayne. I agree with you to a point. However, when you are a breeder and you are hatching a couple of dozen varanids......

Of course, if by chance I do have a pair, and if by chance I do produce a clutch, I will not be releasing a pile of neonates into a big cage.

Keeping track of them all and fishing them out when sold would be a nightmare.

[Gregg M]

Of course, if by chance I do have a pair, and if by chance I do produce a clutch, I will not be releasing a pile of neonates into a big cage.

Keeping track of them all and fishing them out when sold would be a nightmare.

I have a good feeling that you will be breeding your savs. LOL.

[mo9e64]

Wayne, a lot of what you learned making your adult cage,was i would imagine helped by what you did right or wrong on your first cages.Reading about things is not the same thing as experiencing them-beginners will still need to work through issues when setting up their cages whether big or small.
And as far as a start up cage being a waste of money,it's the mere fraction of the cost of an adult cage.Anybody who is thinking about keeping the medium to large monitors shouldn't have money issues-it's expensive.

[infernalis]

Wayne, a lot of what you learned making your adult cage,was i would imagine helped by what you did right or wrong on your first cages.Reading about things is not the same thing as experiencing them-beginners will still need to work through issues when setting up their cages whether big or small.
And as far as a start up cage being a waste of money,it's the mere fraction of the cost of an adult cage.Anybody who is thinking about keeping the medium to large monitors shouldn't have money issues-it's expensive.

I still think the single biggest factor being overlooked, and I have brought this up a few times before.

It's human nature to procrastinate stepping up the cage, "It's OK for now" until "for now" turns into 3 years with an animal stuffed in a box that's too small to accomidate it's needs.

I have no "study" to cite, but I would be willing to bet at least HALF of the people who start out with a smaller cage never get around to building the big one.

I have talked to a lot of people on a lot of forums for quite a few years, and I have read every excuse from "I let it roam all day" to "It's OK, he only sleeps in there"

If I had faith that everyone that started out with a cage too small to support an adult would actually follow through and build that bigger cage they keep on telling the forums that they will "one day" get around to building, I would feel a lot differently than I do about this.

And yes Moe, you are correct, much of what I learned is a direct result of my failure with Chomper, so now you know why this subject has such a powerful grip on what I tell people. I tell people what I do, so their lizards will live longer healthier lives than Chomper did.

[SnakeyJay]

Well said Wayne... I keep seeing your "failure" with chomped brought up in this argument and it's annoying the hell out of me! Yes you had a failure as many people have, however you didnt hide it, lie about it or just plain old ignore it n start again as most people would... It seems that someone wants to make sure every newbie with varanids on here knows about champers death, so you look like you don't know what your talking about...
But that's the point.... The death of chomper has fuelled your passion to get it right and help others do so!...
Soz for the rant, just had to be said. :D

[Gregg M]

Well said Wayne... I keep seeing your "failure" with chomped brought up in this argument and it's annoying the hell out of me! Yes you had a failure as many people have, however you didnt hide it, lie about it or just plain old ignore it n start again as most people would...

And this is one of the reasons why Wayne is as respected as he is by new and seasoned varanid keepers


It seems that someone wants to make sure every newbie with varanids on here knows about champers death, so you look like you don't know what your talking about...

Well Wayne himself makes no bomes about the mistakes he has made and I doubt that Mo has brought it up to cast a shadow on Waynes name. Mo can be tough to take, much like my self, LOL, but his heart is in the right place. It is actually good to see so many varanid keepers who are so passionate about their captives all in one spot.

But that's the point.... The death of chomper has fuelled your passion to get it right and help others do so!...
Soz for the rant, just had to be said. :D

Yet another reason why Wayne is respected.

[SnakeyJay]

Oh I can deal with and talk to almost any person, and I understand that moe is just as passionate about varanids... Moe probably isn't saying it to cast a bad light, but saying it repeatedly with no context surrounding it, it would be very easy for someone reading to misinterpret the point being made and to make assumptions from it.

[infernalis]

One thing I would like to clear up, Moe and I take pokes back and forth, but that in no way indicates any dislike for the guy.

Heck, I like at least a few people to challenge what they read on forums, it encourages proof.. Like that old saying "pics or it didn't happen"

If no one challenged things being said, then where would that leave the people who don't know the gold from the turd??

Think of it like this, we all know that the petco care sheet for Savannah Monitors is like the worst printed document ever published regarding animal care, yet day after day people pluck copies off the rack and commit that trash information to memory, Why???

Because no one is standing there next to that rack challenging that document to prove/disprove what it says.

[SnakeyJay]

Fair point Wayne... I didn't mean to start an argument, I like moe myself from what I've seen. :D just voicing an opinion on how it could look to somebody who doesn't know past details.

[mo9e64]

I hope people will take my view in a positive light-the death of chomper was not my intention to bring up about him learning from his first cages,it was purely from him learning from those experiences to build his current cage.I know that Wayne will be successful with his two Savs ,i have no doubt.
It's tough having good intentions and irritating the crap out of people LOL-one post Brady and Lankyrob gave it to me really good,these are two pretty nice guys.

[infernalis]

I hope people will take my view in a positive light-the death of chomper was not my intention to bring up about him learning from his first cages,it was purely from him learning from those experiences to build his current cage.I know that Wayne will be successful with his two Savs ,i have no doubt.
It's tough having good intentions and irritating the crap out of people LOL-one post Brady and Lankyrob gave it to me really good,these are two pretty nice guys.

If I ever thought for one moment that your intent was malicious in nature, I would have used the ban button.

However, I know better.

And honestly, as much as I do miss Chomper, I am having a total blast this time around, and I'm sure those two lucky little lizards are better off now than they ever would have been in someone else's care or even in the wild

when I compare the behaviour of these monitors to that of Chomper at the same age, it speaks volumes about properly supporting them from day one.

Heck, I can't even get my hand near one without getting bit.

Some people may not find that attractive, but I prefer animals to behave as they should.

[Gregg M]

Heck, I can't even get my hand near one without getting bit.

Some people may not find that attractive, but I prefer animals to behave as they should.

One thing people need to understand when they get into varanids is they are not lap lizards. We have all made this mistake when we first got into keeping them. It is pretty easy to think that you will have a big puppy dog with scales.

Eventually they will not see you as a threat and some will handle interaction just fine but you shoud not sit on your sofa with your monitor expect it to watch American Idol with you. LOL

[infernalis]

One thing people need to understand when they get into varanids is they are not lap lizards. We have all made this mistake when we first got into keeping them. It is pretty easy to think that you will have a big puppy dog with scales.

Eventually they will not see you as a threat and some will handle interaction just fine but you shoud not sit on your sofa with your monitor expect it to watch American Idol with you. LOL

Unfortunatly Gregg, most newbs fall for the lap lizard pictures and clips all over the damn net.

If I had a quarter for every post I have ever read that asked about "taming" a monitor, I could go out to dinner at beefsteak Charlie's.

[bushsnake]

"taming" a monitor haha i love that one too Wayne, i had a friend who wanted to tame a male blue tree montor for presentations...i said "your gonna kill it trying"...some people have boulders for a head...poor lizard

[bushsnake]

...now the same person wants to tame a dwarf caiman for the same reason, some people need to stay away from the public with bad ideas like that

[crocdoc]

Up until today I was Facebook 'friends' with a guy who owns juveniles of the following species: American alligator, reticulated python, African rock python, scrub python, green anaconda, crocodile monitor, water monitor, blue-tail monitor, Nile monitor, ornate monitor and a few others (I've forgotten which other species he has). He lives in a state which is cold enough that he wouldn't be able to house any of them outdoors when (or if) they reach adult size. I don't know how the alligator or snakes are kept, but the photographs I've seen of his monitors show that they're in glass aquaria with newspaper or astroturf for substrate, with screen tops and apparently no access to proper basking spots. Judging by the post dates on his photographs, none of his animals has grown significantly in the year or so since he started posting photographs of them.

His big thing is all about how tame they are and how he's able to tame them by spending so much time with them. Other people can't tame them as well as he can.

He wants to get a saltwater crocodile one day. I suggested to him that perhaps he should wait until at least some of his animals have grown, to see how he can cope with housing them, before getting any more. I also mentioned that, in my opinion, big crocodiles like Niles and saltwater crocodiles shouldn't be owned by private individuals because they invariably need to be rehomed and then end up moving around so much they end up dead before long. He told me I was negative and I shouldn't get in the way of him and his dreams, so I suggested he de-friend me because I wasn't about to change my attitude towards animal abuse.

He de-friended me, which is good because now I don't have to tell him what I REALLY think. :)

[infernalis]

He de-friended me, which is good because now I don't have to tell him what I REALLY think. :)


I can imagine... There are many like him out there.

[Gregg M]

Up until today I was Facebook 'friends' with a guy who owns juveniles of the following species: American alligator, reticulated python, African rock python, scrub python, green anaconda, crocodile monitor, water monitor, blue-tail monitor, Nile monitor, ornate monitor and a few others (I've forgotten which other species he has). He lives in a state which is cold enough that he wouldn't be able to house any of them outdoors when (or if) they reach adult size. I don't know how the alligator or snakes are kept, but the photographs I've seen of his monitors show that they're in glass aquaria with newspaper or astroturf for substrate, with screen tops and apparently no access to proper basking spots. Judging by the post dates on his photographs, none of his animals has grown significantly in the year or so since he started posting photographs of them.

His big thing is all about how tame they are and how he's able to tame them by spending so much time with them. Other people can't tame them as well as he can.

He wants to get a saltwater crocodile one day. I suggested to him that perhaps he should wait until at least some of his animals have grown, to see how he can cope with housing them, before getting any more. I also mentioned that, in my opinion, big crocodiles like Niles and saltwater crocodiles shouldn't be owned by private individuals because they invariably need to be rehomed and then end up moving around so much they end up dead before long. He told me I was negative and I shouldn't get in the way of him and his dreams, so I suggested he de-friend me because I wasn't about to change my attitude towards animal abuse.

He de-friended me, which is good because now I don't have to tell him what I REALLY think. :)

Dave, Stop BSing! You know you love the kid and told him you would get him a nice tame saltie. LOL.

By the way, it was a pleasure hanging out with you dude. Hope you had a good time while you were in NY. Too bad you caught us in the middle of moving the reptile room. It is really coming together now. Got all the varanids moved into the new room and all the snakes are now in the old room.

Oh, I just grabbed us a nice adult pair of pilbara.

[jarich]

Dave, you were in NY?! Im so out of the loop. Sorry I missed a rare chance to meet you in person. For some reason I thought Gregg had moved out to the west coast too. Not sure where my mind is sometimes...

[crocdoc]

Dave, Stop BSing! You know you love the kid and told him you would get him a nice tame saltie.

Oh, I wish it were a kid - his unrealistic collector mentality would be more understandable. Many teens go through a stage of wanting to own a lot of really big reptiles, but this is an adult in his 40s!

It was great to meet you and John in person, Gregg. Tell John the new big SIMS made it in one piece and I look forward to trying it out in spring. It was interesting fitting it into my luggage. I almost got a chance to see John twice, for he was in LA when I was there on my way back to Australia. We had a six hour stopover and were hanging around with Vincent Fricano when John rang him.

Yes, Jarich, I was in NYC for a few days in April, as part of a 'round North America' trip. Had I realised you were in Brooklyn I would have looked you up, as I was staying in Park Slope.

[BarelyBreathing]

Where else did you go?

[crocdoc]

Where else did you go?
California (too cold for reptiles, so my friends took me looking for salamanders instead), Florida (almost top to bottom: I spent a week visiting the Everglades daily, then went north to St Augustine/Jacksonville, west to Gainesville and then up through Tallahassee, south through Tampa and then back across Alligator Alley to Miami), NYC, Montreal and Quebec, Winnipeg (visited the Manitoba snake dens, twice), Calgary and then back to Oz via LA (visited Prehistoric Pets while waiting for the next flight).

[BarelyBreathing]

Sounds like a fun time. Next time consider coming to Denver.

[DiscoPat]

I am going to building an 8x4x4 or an 8x5x4 enclosure for my monitor in a few months (as soon as I move out of my apartment) I was wondering about how much should I save for wood, substrate and other things that are required.

[infernalis]

Save up a few hundred dollars.

Good plywood is $30 a sheet, and you will need 5 sheets (uninsulated enclosure) or 8 sheets for an insulated box.

[mo9e64]

Whatever you are going to line the inside of your cage should be a consideration as well,such as epoxy paint or FRP.Us Canadians envy how cheap you can build enclosures for my cage ran in the thousands of dollars Canadian.

[infernalis]

Mine probably would have Moe, The sheet aluminum was scrap, and the big lumber I already had.

I priced out the 2x6, and the ones I have were like $20 a board, and I used plenty...

Heck I even found 3 cans of that grey sealer in my basement (came with the house)

Can't forget.. That safety glass shower door is probably over $100 to buy, and I got mine from a hotel demolition for free.

[DiscoPat]

thank you, That doesn't seem too bad, I will be working at a mill over the summer so I should easily be able to save up a a couple thousand or so.

[infernalis]

Then by all means make that cage 12 feet long, it will only require 2 additional sheets of plywood cut into halves.

[DiscoPat]

I may need a climate controlled garage for that size but if I find a place with one if that and the extra dirt is all it will take then it would most definitely be worth it.

[infernalis]

I may need a climate controlled garage for that size but if I find a place with one if that and the extra dirt is all it will take then it would most definitely be worth it.

Insulate the cage, then the garage climate becomes a lot less important.

I insulated mine, and last winter we had a power failure that lasted 3 1/2 hours, the inside of the cage never dropped below 80 degrees.

http://www.chompersite.com/cage_files/roof.jpg

http://www.rockyroost.us/Enclosure/insulate.jpg

http://www.chompersite.com/Jan2012/Finsul.jpg

[DiscoPat]

That is quite impressive for it to hold temperature that well.

What do you use to have the safety glass shower door lock into place?

[infernalis]

A large phillips head screw. Not fancy, but it keeps them in.

[DiscoPat]

If it works well it doesn't have to be fancy.

[DiscoPat]

What do you guys think about humidifiers? Maybe not for the large well built enclosures but for a temporary smaller one that doesn't hold humidity as well.

[infernalis]

What do you guys think about humidifiers? Maybe not for the large well built enclosures but for a temporary smaller one that doesn't hold humidity as well.


Waste of time, I tried it.

From what I have been told by very reliable and credible sources is that these lizard gather their water from what they eat, and then conserve the water by burrowing into the soil.

[DiscoPat]

Glad I asked. Saves me like $50. and time.

[infernalis]

Glad I asked. Saves me like $50. and time.


Money and time that would be far better used to work on the proper enclosure.:cool:

[DiscoPat]

Yep. Don't worry. As soon as I move in August I am going to have it done within a week. purchasing the stuff before I move.

[mo9e64]

What Wayne said is so true,what alot of husbandry was based on was observations of monitors in the wild.The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.Deep substrate is important not because it's just one approach but because it's a tool monitors use in the wild,even species people like to label as aquatic or arboreal.It's a tool for a monitor whether there from the desert or tropical forest.

[infernalis]

What Wayne said is so true,what alot of husbandry was based on was observations of monitors in the wild.The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.Deep substrate is important not because it's just one approach but because it's a tool monitors use in the wild,even species people like to label as aquatic or arboreal.It's a tool for a monitor whether there from the desert or tropical forest.


Times like these I wish we had the like button....

[DiscoPat]

So I noticed a little bit of mold growing on the piece of wood on the cooler side (which is also the more humid side) of my enclosure. I turned the dirt and took the piece of wood out immediately and washed it off.

Does anybody know a good way to prevent this? Most other websites say lower the humidity and keep it really dry which isn't an option here.

[Lankyrob]

Where did the wood come from? Is it possible it had some fungus on it before it went into the enclosure and that this has just spread?

The reason i ask is that my GTP viv is kept at 70-90% humidity and has wood items in there that have never molded :)

[DiscoPat]

It came from a pet store. So it is possible. Is your entire enclosure lit? Because mine is darker around that piece of wood

[infernalis]

so put a florescent light over there and brighten it up.

[Lankyrob]

Mine has NO light in it whatsoever, just natural light from the room it is in. The wood covers a lot of the viv from the brightest to the darkest areas :)

[DiscoPat]

The wood was outside in the sun and mold still managed to grow on it and Oregon is not that humid and it was a nice day. It must have been the wood. I will just find a different piece.

[crocdoc]

...alot of husbandry was based on was observations of monitors in the wild.The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.Deep substrate is important not because it's just one approach but because it's a tool monitors use in the wild,even species people like to label as aquatic or arboreal.It's a tool for a monitor whether there from the desert or tropical forest.
Hmmm.... yes, no and maybe. A lot of husbandry has been based on what works in captivity and then extrapolated to the wild, rather than just being left at 'works in captivity'. Despite the claims of 'certain' people, a lot of people (including, dare I say it, scientists) have always known that some monitors burrow in the wild. The reality is that some monitors burrow in the wild, others don't. Others roost in trees, or in rock crevices. In captivity some of these will still happily sleep in burrows provided it meets their needs.

What's most important is that many species, particularly desert and/or savannah dwelling species, need to maintain moisture levels by retreating to a humid hide spot and a burrow suits those needs well.

[DiscoPat]

Has anyone had any luck building a large enclosure for outside? I am talking like a 15x20x7 environment for their monitors?

Or just an 8x8x4 enclosure that is able to maintain good conditions outside rather than in a garage or a bedroom?

[infernalis]

What's most important is that many species, particularly desert and/or savannah dwelling species, need to maintain moisture levels by retreating to a humid hide spot and a burrow suits those needs well.


Personal observation, both of my savs are quite happy underground.

It's fun to sit and watch the dirt heave and move around while they are down sub surface digging.

[varanus_mad]

I havent kept a species yet that didnt burrow in a big way or a small way...

[franks]

Personal observation, both of my savs are quite happy underground.

It's fun to sit and watch the dirt heave and move around while they are down sub surface digging.


My favorite is watching my little guy emerge from his underground network exactly 3 hours after the lights go on caked in wet dirt, yawning, and heading towards his water bowl to rinse off and go to the bathroom.

[crocdoc]

I havent kept a species yet that didnt burrow in a big way or a small way...

That answer would probably be more informative if you'd mentioned which species those were. I have kept a species that doesn't burrow unless nesting. Lace monitors, Varanus varius, don't burrow unless they run out of choices to escape the heat/cold. If they have proper hollow logs they'll opt for those.

[mo9e64]

To me not using a deep substrate,is taking away a useful tool for monitors.How much they use it i agree may depend on species,but why not have it available,along with hollow logs.The way i see it,a trend is for people to rationalize,a hollow log now becomes a cardboard box or a sculpture cave.A deep substrate gets people thinking outside the box from traditional reptile keeping.I know that people can raise monitors without deep substrate,but it takes understanding through actual experience and observation,and it's not like you can't remove things they don't use,or add things for that matter.

[varanus_mad]

That answer would probably be more informative if you'd mentioned which species those were. I have kept a species that doesn't burrow unless nesting. Lace monitors, Varanus varius, don't burrow unless they run out of choices to escape the heat/cold. If they have proper hollow logs they'll opt for those.

savs niles albigs timors ackies argus's

out of the lot the timors dug the least thry spent most of thete time in hollow logs

only made a 3/4 burtows the best ones was for eggs

the male only dug to see what was down there... curiosity i think

the a io i kept dug till she got to just under 3'

The a. Albig im keeping at the min has dug a burrow to sleep in

the argus dont thonk i need to tell you what they did lol same with the ackies

boscs dug a decent network of burrows to

do juvi lacies burrow?

Truthfully i cant imagine lacies burrowing unless for the reasons you mentioned

[crocdoc]

Moe, I wasn't arguing against the use of deep substrate, I was arguing against you repeating your mate's assertion that the use of deep substrate in captivity is based on his 'observations' of burrow use by wild monitors and that no one previously had observed this in the wild.

Here's the quote:
...alot of husbandry was based on was observations of monitors in the wild.The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.

The thing is, everyone has known for a very long time that many monitor species burrow. It wasn't 'discovered' by a visiting monitor keeper from Arizona. Heck, I've even observed it myself:

Wild Varanus panoptes burrow in central Queensland:
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/112061407.jpg

This is my boot (out of focus) as I stand on a slab of sandstone that a male heath monitor, Varanus rosenbergi had just ducked under, near Sydney, NSW. The heath monitor's tail is still visible as it waits to see what I do.
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/141569243.jpg
Close-up of the tail:
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/141569252.jpg
When the monitor ducked under I hopped down to have a look - its burrow went right up under this rock:
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/141569245.jpg

Thanks for the species list, varanus_mad and the description of their use/non-use of burrows. That information agrees with both of our assertions: The species you keep that are known burrowers in the wild (savs, Niles, albigs, ackies, argus) burrow and the one that isn't known to be much of a burrower in the wild (Timor) doesn't burrow much.

Baby lace monitors will squeeze under or into things (hollow logs, pieces of bark laid on the surface substrate etc) rather than burrow. However, if I go away for a few days and the humidity levels in the enclosure get neglected, they'll burrow down into the substrate (currently wood shavings) to avoid dehydration because it is always more humid at the bottom. This fits with what I was saying earlier - deep substrate is still a useful tool in captivity, even for non-burrowing species, but there's no need to claim it was based on observations in the wild rather than simply 'because it works in captivity'.

[varanus_mad]

Personally i aint right fussed where it came from...

All i know is its something i feel monitors regardlessof sp should have access to it...

[crocdoc]

Personally i aint right fussed where it came from...

All i know is its something i feel monitors regardlessof sp should have access to it...
That's fair enough. Personally, I am fussed about where it came from because I'm tired of 'certain people' making grandiose claims about what they've seen in the wild, when 99% of the time it's BS based on what they've seen in captivity. Call a spade a spade, I say. If a technique was developed because it works in captivity, then describe it as such rather than make s___ up about what monitors do in the wild. I take that stance because, in addition to keeping monitors at home, I spend time watching monitors in the wild (and know other zoologists who do so professionally), so I'd rather not see BS passed on as truth. :)

[varanus_mad]

That's fair enough. Personally, I am fussed about where it came from because I'm tired of 'certain people' making grandiose claims about what they've seen in the wild, when 99% of the time it's BS based on what they've seen in captivity. Call a spade a spade, I say. If a technique was developed because it works in captivity, then describe it as such rather than make s___ up about what monitors do in the wild. I take that stance because, in addition to keeping monitors at home, I spend time watching monitors in the wild (and know other zoologists who do so professionally), so I'd rather not see BS passed on as truth. :)

Suppose it does belittle the efforts of those who gone an done it...

And can provide proof to that effect...

[infernalis]

I'd rather not see BS passed on as truth. :)

I feel the exact same way, propagation of uncertain information & made up nonsense (not just from one source) has cost the lives of many animals.

[varanus_mad]

The fact of the matter is... This part of monitor husbandry didnt soley come from captivr and wild observations but a combo of the two

From multiple sources to boot...

No one person can lay claim to it...

Hence my apathy over who said what...

Im also a big big fan pf using multiple sources...

In the same way no one person has developed the husbandry we have today...

Anywho... Arent these debates fun

on another note im going to go meet some komodod at the end of the month...

[mo9e64]

I wish i had not implied unintentionally that burrowing was the only unobserved monitor behaviour.If people disagree that deep substrate was not a good margin for error tool for new keepers i wish that people would argue that point instead of using it as an excuse to bash.I found deep substrate useful in my experience.I will use any sucessful method that helps my monitors dispite my feelings of the advice giver.

[DiscoPat]

Is a 75W bulb too high, will it dry out the enclosure? one of my 50W ones broke today and I can buy another 50 but I was thinking a 75 would make it a little closer to the 130 or so range for his basking spot and I have an extra one to use.

[infernalis]

No harm in trying...

[crocdoc]

I wish i had not implied unintentionally that burrowing was the only unobserved monitor behaviour.

You hadn't implied that burrowing was the only unobserved behaviour (intentionally or unintentionally). You'd implied that burrowing was an unobserved monitor behaviour. We all know that your mate has made claims about all sorts of other supposedly unobserved behaviours :)

If people disagree that deep substrate was not a good margin for error tool for new keepers i wish that people would argue that point instead of using it as an excuse to bash.I found deep substrate useful in my experience.I will use any sucessful method that helps my monitors dispite my feelings of the advice giver.
Again, my argument isn't whether or not deep substrate is a good tool in captivity. My argument is against the claim that its use (or the use of any other captive husbandry tool) is based on one individual's observation from wild monitors (and the claim that invariably goes with it that no one has observed this before).

Some see it as an excuse to bash, I see it as countering all of the science-bashing that goes on 'elsewhere'. If you were genuinely interested in keeping it about captive husbandry only and whether or not it works in captivity, then your original statement should have been that it works in captivity, rather than adding little stabs like this one:
The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.

Even though you hadn't mentioned any names, we all know who your sources are (rather, who your source is) and where those comments come from (and also know who these 'other' people that fail to observe these things are meant to be), so as long as you slip those little comments in I will continue to bash in response.

[varanus_mad]

Is a 75W bulb too high, will it dry out the enclosure? one of my 50W ones broke today and I can buy another 50 but I was thinking a 75 would make it a little closer to the 130 or so range for his basking spot and I have an extra one to use.


I have used halogens all the way up to 120w... Currently using an 80w in my albigs viv

[mo9e64]

An important thing is not to have your mind made up about things going in,it can cloud your perspective.If endorsing to new keepers the use of deep substrate somehow becomes a hidden agenda about scientists I guess Dave you would be in your right to defend against those comments.You could have just asked,instead of accusing me of attacking a group of your colleagues.My motive and comments were solely based on new keepers perspective,their idea of what monitors are.What i think is based on the experiences of others,how can it not influence me.If you were the originator of all sucessful husbandry than you might have the right to judge me,but you like me were influenced by others.Those others were not perfect,unless you choose to see it that way.

[bushsnake]

I feel the exact same way, propagation of uncertain information & made up nonsense (not just from one source) has cost the lives of many animals.
People do not do their homework anymore, its pathetic. In the late 90's i bred this frog species that was very difficult to breed and very few people had success. I did my homework and nailed it...produced about 500 in 6 months, thats probably still the most anyone has produced. Great information IS OUT THERE.

[mo9e64]

I think Wayne would agree with me on this one,if the cage is well insulated you can get good results using lower wattage bulbs.I still would say to use more low wattage bulbs as opposed to one larger one,correct me if i am wrong it spreads heat over a larger area without the higher concentrated heat.My cage which is 10' x 5' x 6' is heated with 5-6 30 to 50w floodlights in an unheated garage(heated in winter monthes)

[mo9e64]

What it takes to raise monitors to old age is out there,that's the sad thing people hold on to ideas which are contradicted by what some keepers are doing.

[infernalis]

Yes, I push insulation on everyone who asks cage advice. My last cage was not insulated, it was a nightmare. uneven temps, high wattage lights, no humidity (it all burned off and escaped) it was a beef jerky machine.

This cage stays rock steady all day, Under the basking platform is a big flat rock that weighs about 200 pounds, it holds it's stored heat forever, I don't worry a lot about power failures, it takes a long time for that cage to cool down.

I use a sprinkle can to dampen the soil about once every 3 weeks, the dirt just does not dry out very fast at all in this one.

[bushsnake]

What it takes to raise monitors to old age is out there,that's the sad thing people hold on to ideas which are contradicted by what some keepers are doing.
Ive seen people flat out refuse great information just because they felt like they were being attacked with it...I SEE ALL THE TIME

[jarich]

Ive seen people flat out refuse great information just because they felt like they were being attacked with it...I SEE ALL THE TIME

A very good thing to remember for those of us with that information. HOW it is presented is almost as important as what is presented. No one was ever taught how to use a shovel by being bashed in the face with it.

[infernalis]

A very good thing to remember for those of us with that information. HOW it is presented is almost as important as what is presented. No one was ever taught how to use a shovel by being bashed in the face with it.

Powerful words...............

[crocdoc]

What i think is based on the experiences of others,how can it not influence me.If you were the originator of all sucessful husbandry than you might have the right to judge me,but you like me were influenced by others.Those others were not perfect,unless you choose to see it that way.
Moe, I don't care that it influences you. It's the parroting of it here that annoys me. No, your mate was not the originator of all successful husbandry. You just take everything he claims to be the truth, despite all evidence to the contrary, and repeat it because you haven't had enough experience of your own to have developed good BS filters.

Yes, my husbandry has been partially influenced by other people - keepers that I've spoken to here, in my own country, mostly - and partially has been developed by myself through research, observation and trial and error. I happily share that information through frequent talks at herpetological societies around the country.

The funny thing is, I used to have discussions with your mate many years ago, when I first started keeping monitors, and quickly realised how full of BS he is most of the time. I've gone against much of his dogma and have found much more success that way. There's been a recent argument about that, you may recall, but that's only one example of many things I do that go against his dogma. Yes, he does have good information mixed in with the BS, but you still haven't figured out which is which so you parrot the whole lot together. Here's my advice: Don't repeat the stuff about wild monitors until you've seen monitors in the wild yourself. Once you have your own observations about wild monitors we'll all be happy to read your opinions on them. Until then, stick to talking about what works or doesn't work in captivity without adding stories about who has or hasn't seen what in the wild, because you are only repeating the claims of someone else.

Once again, I repeat (because I can't think of any other way to express it): If you think deep substrate is a good husbandry tool in captivity (I would agree that it is), then say so. Don't parrot your mate's claims about all wild monitors living in burrows, or his claims that no one had ever known this until he observed it.

What it takes to raise monitors to old age is out there,that's the sad thing people hold on to ideas which are contradicted by what some keepers are doing.
Funny you should say that about people holding onto ideas. What do you reckon the lifespan of a female lace monitor is? ;)

[dehlol]

Funny you should say that about people holding onto ideas. What do you reckon the lifespan of a female lace monitor is? ;)

If that certain "mate" of his is the same one I'm thinking- just long enough to have complications from breeding/egg binding I reckon.

Some of the information given by that guy is such crap, but how he defends it and believes so strongly in it is truly humorous.

[crocdoc]

If that certain "mate" of his is the same one I'm thinking- just long enough to have complications from breeding/egg binding I reckon.

Indeed. Easy to do the maths, too, based entirely on things he's said:

He's bred "over a hundred" (everyone knows it's much less than that, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt).

They breed at one year of age.

They lay 5 clutches a year.

When they lay 5 clutches, the clutches are small: around 5 eggs.

He's had a few females: 3 or 4.

So, 5 clutches x 5 eggs = 25 babies.

25 babies x 4 females = 100

...and that's it. One breeding season for each female.

According to that, his females lived two years. One year of growing, one year of producing five clutches, then they were toast.

Awesome.

[Lankyrob]

I know all monitor discussions go down this route but isnt internet bashing someone who isnt even on the forum to answer the accusations levelled at him pretty childish, pathetic and not worth the time or effort??

[crocdoc]

Not if it gets a point across, Lankyrob. :)

Many people take his every word as gospel and when the Moes of the world start talking about what wild monitors do and don't do (based on his claims) here on this forum it's the start of an insidious creep of his nonsense into yet another forum so excuse me for wanting to nip it in the bud.

... isnt internet bashing someone who isnt even on the forum to answer the accusations levelled at him...
Because Moe's mate would never do that, right? Lol.

[Lankyrob]

Unfortunately in my opinion it wont get you point across, all it does it makes it seem like you have personal issues with someone and that clouds everything that you are saying.

Just stick to either facts and/or your experiences and let people make their own minds up who to listen too without the accusations and pettiness. If you are correct (and i believe you are) then that will speak for itself.

[KORBIN5895]

A very good thing to remember for those of us with that information. HOW it is presented is almost as important as what is presented. No one was ever taught how to use a shovel by being bashed in the face with it.

Actually they would learn how to use that shovel as the true weapon it could be.... just sayin.

[infernalis]

Unfortunately in my opinion it wont get you point across, all it does it makes it seem like you have personal issues with someone and that clouds everything that you are saying.

Just stick to either facts and/or your experiences and let people make their own minds up who to listen too without the accusations and pettiness. If you are correct (and i believe you are) then that will speak for itself.

On this particular subject Rob, I simply cannot allow "his" misinformation to propagate at ssnakess...

I care way too much for these lizards to permit one snippet of that garbage to make it to the members here who are trying to get things right.

[KORBIN5895]

On this particular subject Rob, I simply cannot allow "his" misinformation to propagate at ssnakess...

I care way too much for these lizards to permit one snippet of that garbage to make it to the members here who are trying to get things right.

Please point out this garbage Wayne because I misses it. Also it's not that we feel his garbage should be allowed but those are quite the lengthy post against Moe just to refute a some garbage.

[infernalis]

OK, this is spiraling out of hand.

No one is bashing Moe (a member) disagreements in husbandry techniques are standard in forums.

The person in question has not been named, even if we all know who it is.

So should those of us who know better just sit and allow "cut and paste" (it's pretty darn close) of this psycho babble to sit on a forum read by a rather large audience to remain unchallenged so that some new person can absorb it and possibly use it?

I should hope not.... Goes against everything I stand for.

[StudentoReptile]

I personally do not have a dog in this fight, other than a general care for the well-being of the animals (in this case, monitors). I have this thread, and others, as well as a handful on Varanus.net. Here my thoughts:

There is a difference between bashing misinformation and inaccurate advice, and bashing the actual individual who is guilty of such. I admit, the line separating the two can be blurred, but there is a distinction. The way I see it is that Wayne, Crocdoc, and others are very passionate about monitors, and as well as the best possible ways to care for and propagate them in captivity. Likewise, as passionate, avid varanid enthusiasts, they take offense to the spread of any misinformation that detracts from this goal.

Looking at some of the statements the "unnamed" has made on several sites, and his own track record, I can conclude he quite simply, does not know as much as he (and many others) thinks he does. Consequently, I do not view him as a reliable source of information regarding monitors. My stance is nothing personal, but just based on his own experience. The evidence has been cited throughout this thread and others, so I won't recant it. In short, it is not much different than a random stranger coming into the LPS that I used to work at, and claims he is an expert on monitors because he has kept many over the years. Yet he keeps returning to purchase another because his keep dying. Yeah, it is a truthful statement that he has kept a lot of monitors over a certain period of time, and using the term "experienced" is debatable, but based on his track record, would anyone consider this person to be a reliable source for learning how to properly care for monitors successfully? The only difference between this hypothetical example and "unnamed" is that UN has been doing it for quite a while, and has developed a name for himself.

In my opinion, the only people who are making this personal are the dedicated followers. It is not Wayne's or Crocdoc's fault that most of the misinformation in question is coming from a singular source, and that source just happens to be a well-known individual in the hobby. I'm a moderator on another forum, and if I know someone is spreading misinformation about anything, I will call them out on it. Again, nothing personal, but it behooves the person to be corrected and benefits anyone listening to be provided with the most accurate, factual information there is. On the forum I moderate, we don't tolerate false information either. So I stand behind Wayne's position on this matter.

[crocdoc]

Lankyrob and Korbin, if you were to look at my original post on this topic, you'd see that it wasn't an all out bash but simply me trying to set Moe straight on whether deep substrate was something that's simply useful in captivity vs used by all monitors in the wild yet only observed by 'some'.

The post is at the top of this page:
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/90995-monitor-enclosure-discussion-thread-11.html

Here's the original quote:
Hmmm.... yes, no and maybe. A lot of husbandry has been based on what works in captivity and then extrapolated to the wild, rather than just being left at 'works in captivity'. Despite the claims of 'certain' people, a lot of people (including, dare I say it, scientists) have always known that some monitors burrow in the wild. The reality is that some monitors burrow in the wild, others don't. Others roost in trees, or in rock crevices. In captivity some of these will still happily sleep in burrows provided it meets their needs.
That was in response to this post by Moe:
...alot of husbandry was based on was observations of monitors in the wild.The very fact you can't observe monitors underground,a large percentage of many monitors lives in the wild was ignored.A fault of humans is basing things on what they see,if they don't see it it's not important.Deep substrate is important not because it's just one approach but because it's a tool monitors use in the wild,even species people like to label as aquatic or arboreal.It's a tool for a monitor whether there from the desert or tropical forest.

It turned into a bashing because it simply didn't stop there. My attacks aren't against Moe - I think he's an alright guy, even if a bit misguided - but I don't even think he's aware that he's repeating someone else's nonsense, which is why I felt the need to point it out. I know that Moe has never seen monitors in the wild and I know which other forum he hangs around at and who the one person on that forum is that has actually seen monitors in the wild, so it's not hard to figure out where Moe got the idea that all monitors burrow in the wild, even the aquatic and arboreal species.

If not, then this is Moe's opportunity to set the record straight by listing online sources/publications/books/journals/or any-other-source from which he got that idea, as well as the idea that this burrowing by all species of monitor was observed by 'someone' after being ignored for so long because of an inbuilt fault in other humans.

I should also point out that, as much as I am bashing someone behind their back here, I have no qualms about confronting that same person on the one forum of which we are both members and have done so fairly recently.

[varanus_mad]

Not if it gets a point across, Lankyrob. :)

Many people take his every word as gospel and when the Moes of the world start talking about what wild monitors do and don't do (based on his claims) here on this forum it's the start of an insidious creep of his nonsense into yet another forum so excuse me for wanting to nip it in the bud.


Because Moe's mate would never do that, right? Lol.

I agree... he wouldnt... never...



The most horrible thing about all of this is... though trying to correct his mis-information... he actually turns people into sort of lesser versions...

[varanus_mad]

A very good thing to remember for those of us with that information. HOW it is presented is almost as important as what is presented. No one was ever taught how to use a shovel by being bashed in the face with it.

In that case matey out of interest do you think im to... Harsh with my advice?

[crocdoc]

Well, if the alternative is to allow the insidious creep of his misinformation (and boasts) into other forums, then so be it.

[varanus_mad]

Well, if the alternative is to allow the insidious creep of his misinformation (and boasts) into other forums, then so be it.

lesser of two evils.

[infernalis]

Well, if the alternative is to allow the insidious creep of his misinformation (and boasts) into other forums, then so be it.

Not on here it won't:eek::eek:

[dehlol]

There is a reason many of us steer clear of certain forums that he infests (one in particular comes to mind). One can read half a page of his crap and realize a lot of his fundamentals on varanid keeping are based on his own arrogance.

At some juncture, I actually think he knows what he's doing is wrong, and just a big troll. On the other hand, I feel like he's actually convinced himself he's right like a pathological liar would. He's a really weird fellow that's for sure.

[crocdoc]

I think 'pathological' is the key word. His need to be seen as the expert and his desire to put everyone else down to maintain that status in his mind does suggest a pathology. It's not hard to find examples of him doing complete 180 degree turns in things he says to avoid being seen as having done something 'wrong'.

He gets away with it by choosing his audience. The posters on his forum have two things in common: Not a single one of them has seen a monitor in the wild (so they'll accept anything he says about wild monitors and the biologists that study them) and most have very little experience with breeding monitors. The ones that do have sent me emails telling me what they really think.

[infernalis]

The ones that do have sent me emails telling me what they really think.

No emails here, I shout it from moutain tops.;)

[KORBIN5895]

Lankyrob and Korbin, if you were to look at my original post on this topic, you'd see that it wasn't an all out bash but simply me trying to set Moe straight on whether deep substrate was something that's simply useful in captivity vs used by all monitors in the wild yet only observed by 'some'.

Actually I missed all of that. Wayne set me straight though.

Thanks Wayne for making sound less stupid than I am.

Also I thought it was a well established fact that the ape was watching unicorns? Has he changed his statement again? Does he have proof of this new success of his? Hahahaha.
Sir.

[mo9e64]

I just got 8 private messages from 8 different people supporting me,i'm lying of coarse because Wayne can read my supposedly private messages.But lets say i did,firstly they are private i would respect that and secondly it would be heresay.I'm surprised nobody caught CrocDoc's hypocricy-I belieive his claims,but isn't that being hypocritical a objective moderator would have caught that and pointed it out in the very least.I don't feel i'm being bashed just used to bash someone else-but hey that's just an ethical technicality,or a stacked deck of cards.

[crocdoc]

Moe, your post doesn't make any sense - perhaps if you provide more details we can actually discuss it.
I just got 8 private messages from 8 different people supporting me
Supporting you with what? That all monitors burrow in the wild?

I'm surprised nobody caught CrocDoc's hypocricy-I belieive his claims,but isn't that being hypocritical a objective moderator would have caught that and pointed it out in the very least.
What's my hypocrisy? What are my claims?

This isn't an attack, I just need more details so I know exactly what it is you're saying.

I also find it a bit lame that your mates are too frightened to say what they think on here, instead of via PMs. If they have information on wild monitors that the rest of us are unaware of, why wouldn't they want to share that here?

[infernalis]

I just got 8 private messages from 8 different people supporting me,i'm lying of coarse because Wayne can read my supposedly private messages.But lets say i did,firstly they are private i would respect that and secondly it would be heresay.I'm surprised nobody caught CrocDoc's hypocricy-I belieive his claims,but isn't that being hypocritical a objective moderator would have caught that and pointed it out in the very least.I don't feel i'm being bashed just used to bash someone else-but hey that's just an ethical technicality,or a stacked deck of cards.

Even though administration can read PM messages, unless foul play is suspected (like poaching members to another forum) we simply don't.

In fact I just banned a member for posting his PM's on facebook.;)

Calling David a hypocrite? uhm OK.. whatever.

How many Varanid documentaries have FR in the closing credits??? I have yet to watch one.:wacky:

[crocdoc]

Ah, sorry, I missed Moe's point. He's saying that I'm lying about my claims about getting PMs from people telling me what they really think, therefore his hypothetical example of getting 8 PMs from people supporting him.

No, I'm not going to reveal who those people are or what they have said because that would betray their confidence in the privacy of our exchanges. However, anyone that knows me from the forums over the years, whether they think I'm an arrogant _____ or a nice guy, will still get an idea of whether or not I've ever felt the need to lie about what I've seen or haven't seen, what I've bred or haven't bred or even what people have said to me or haven't said to me, in private or otherwise. I haven't felt the need to lie because I don't have a pathological desire to maintain a particular 'status' on the forums, so the idea of lying wouldn't even enter my head. Why on earth would I make that stuff up?

However, if you want examples of the stuff that is on public display, such as the 180 degree turns (or anything else) I've mentioned, I'm happy to provide those on here. With links, quotes, the lot. Where moderators of other forums haven't carefully removed them, of course, for we've all seen that happen.

The important thing isn't who has more people on their team and who is getting more PMs of support, anyway. It's about the information. This didn't start as a bashing - it started as me correcting the information you had provided on deep substrate and burrowing in monitors. Why not just tell us the source of your information about all monitors being burrowers in the wild or that this was 'discovered' and applied to captivity only after many years of people ignoring it because of an inbuilt 'fault' in humans, so we know that this isn't a sign of insidious creep from elsewhere? That's how all of this started, long before it became a bashing. Here's your chance to diffuse it. Show us the source and if it didn't come from your mate I'll apologise for thinking it did.

[mo9e64]

Dave,i'm not calling you a liar, i believe you got them and what you say their content was,just that without producing them they are just hearsay.Hearsay is not evidence,was all i was saying.

[infernalis]

Hearsay is he said, she said.

When it's "I said" and the source is credible, we call that testimony.

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience. When submitted as evidence, such statements are called hearsay evidence

With this definition in hand, repeating what "someone else" has posted on another forum without actually experiencing it yourself is hearsay.

testimony is a solemn attestation as to the truth of a matter

The words "testimony" and "testify" both have a root in the Latin testis, which is normally translated "witness".

Therefore by definition, what David has witnessed with his own eyes VS assumptions made by reading something that someone with far less credibility has written on another forum, I would put my money on the credible witness any day.

[crocdoc]

Moe, if that's all that stands between you separating my credibility from that of your mate (and therefore making me a hypocrite in your eyes), shoot me an email and I'll forward some examples on two provisos:

1. You do not repeat anything said in those emails, or tell anyone who sent them, either here on the other forum(s) you frequent.

2. You delete them after you read them.

Herein lies the difference between your mate and me. I don't make bold claims about things I can't support. I'm about to head out of town for a couple of days, but next week I should have time to go through my outlook folders and find some juicy ones for you, if that floats your boat.

This is me extending my trust to you. Betray that trust and the next forum bashing will not be directed at your mate.

It is still way off topic and not addressing the source of the 'all monitors burrow in the wild' and 'no one noticed before because of an inbuilt default of humans' statements, though.

[jarich]

In that case matey out of interest do you think im to... Harsh with my advice?

Sorry mate, been a bit busy and just spotted this. No I don't think you are. You are openly knowledgable, and even occasionally blunt, but you still have an awareness of how you're coming across, and retain the ability to allow for differing opinions. Which is the point. It's kind of like that saying, if you're worried about being crazy, you're probably not. Likewise, if you're concerned about being too harsh, you're probably not.

[DiscoPat]

I recently noticed a lot of tiny baby crickets in my enclosure. I am unsure how to feel about this. Is it a bad thing or..?

[infernalis]

I recently noticed a lot of tiny baby crickets in my enclosure. I am unsure how to feel about this. Is it a bad thing or..?

Cleanup crew...

Crickets eat waste.

[DiscoPat]

So it is a good thing or does it mean I should clean the cage more? or does it mean I will have to clean it less.

[infernalis]

Clean less.

Crickets will even eat poop.

[DiscoPat]

That is pretty cool, I saw around 50 or so babies in the grass area, I wonder if they will get big enough for Steve to eat as well.

[infernalis]

If they do, you may never know, Steve may just eat the evidence.

[DiscoPat]

That reminds me, I was wondering if it would be possible, no matter how difficult to create a somewhat self sustaining ecosystem in a large enclosure, like a 12x12x8 or like 20x20x8 something like that.

[Pirarucu]

I'm sure it would be possible with the 20x20 or bigger. 12x12 would be not likely, but 20x20 would be doable, and is something I intend to attempt one day. Though I may go for 30x20 if possible.

[infernalis]

Depends on what you mean by "self sustaining"

I doubt you could breed sufficient food within the enclosure.

If you could, how would you keep the lizard from eating it all.

[DiscoPat]

That is very true, I was thinking something that could hold itself for maybe a week or so at a time with no upkeep.

Also maybe there could be a cricket nest or something like that in a top corner and maybe some mouse nest through an area that they can leave but a monitor couldn't get in. it would be more of a thing for a full grown monitor.

[Pirarucu]

The trick would be making sure the monitor couldn't decimate the population. I would say that it is possible, but you would need insane amounts of prey animals, and you would need to throw them in there and let them multiply for a few months without a monitor around. Once the monitor was introduced, there would need to be plenty of places for the prey to hide that the monitor couldn't get to. You would probably also be feeding the monitor in addition to whatever it found to eat in the cage.
It's possible, but it would be very difficult and expensive.

[KORBIN5895]

If he were to put metal ammo boxes with holes cut out of the sides. Connect a PVC or steel pipe to act as an entrance that leads to the surface. If you used that for your rodent nests the sav would never be able get into it. Place several of these around the enclosure. Also you could put the can on its side and have the hinged top sticking out of the enclosure so you can keep an eye on the nest.

[DiscoPat]

Could also probably use the same concept for crickets, which would also clean up the enclosure as well. have a few plants. maybe get a small tree like 4 feet high and plant it in the dirt initially for roots and easy areas to burrow.

[Pirarucu]

I would say that for one, you would need plants out the wazoo. My attempt will incorporate tall grasses to break up sight lines (Preferably something native to African Savannas, but Mexican Feather Grass caught my eye too..) Then lots of bushes and small trees that put off edible berries and fruits for the prey animals to eat. I may also have a few concealed feeders filled with food for them, which I would keep full. I would then throw in a crap ton of worms, crickets, roaches, snails, slugs, etc. I would most likely have a small pond in there as well, stocked with fish and crayfish. I would then let the whole thing sit for a few months to let the populations stabilize. Then the sav would be added, and allowed to feed himself, with rodents being offered by hand. Supporting a sustainable population of rodents in the enclosure would be much harder than populations of bugs, I wouldn't even try.

[infernalis]

I would say that for one, you would need plants out the wazoo. My attempt will incorporate tall grasses to break up sight lines (Preferably something native to African Savannahs, but Mexican Feather Grass caught my eye too..) Then lots of bushes and small trees that put off edible berries and fruits for the prey animals to eat. I may also have a few concealed feeders filled with food for them, which I would keep full. I would then throw in a crap ton of worms, crickets, roaches, snails, slugs, etc. I would most likely have a small pond in there as well, stocked with fish and crayfish. I would then let the whole thing sit for a few months to let the populations stabilize. Then the sav would be added, and allowed to feed himself, with rodents being offered by hand. Supporting a sustainable population of rodents in the enclosure would be much harder than populations of bugs, I wouldn't even try.


Although I admire the thought behind this, I would think you would need a 10 acre enclosure to sustain it.

In a smaller enclosure, how would you prevent the lizard from just wiping out every living thing in the enclosure?

[jarich]

Well, first he would dig up all the plants trying to get to the bugs. Actually it would be a whole lot of work, but really fun to watch for that first couple days ;)

[MoreliAddict]

Finding a way to make a mouse breeding area attached to the enclosure in such a way that only mice can enter/exit would actually be a cool idea. Your monitor would never know when a mouse might run by which is good mental stimulation.

[infernalis]

Well, first he would dig up all the plants trying to get to the bugs. Actually it would be a whole lot of work, but really fun to watch for that first couple days ;)


Mine destroy the grass very quickly now they are bigger.

[Pirarucu]

Although I admire the thought behind this, I would think you would need a 10 acre enclosure to sustain it.

In a smaller enclosure, how would you prevent the lizard from just wiping out every living thing in the enclosure?As I said, there would be hidden food boxes in the enclosure which would also serve as hiding places. I would shoot for a 30x20 cage with 3-4 feet of dirt and just one monitor, likely a female. As far as destroying the plants, 30x20 with a four foot lizard would be like when yours were only a few inches, and there would be only one. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work, and I'll just scrap the ecosystem idea and put something larger in, perhaps a few argus or niles. Maybe a smaller crocodilian. But I still intend to try, because were it to work...

[DiscoPat]

Although I admire the thought behind this, I would think you would need a 10 acre enclosure to sustain it.

In a smaller enclosure, how would you prevent the lizard from just wiping out every living thing in the enclosure?

A 10 acre enclosure would be awesome. I wonder if at that size you could probably hold quite a few savs which would make it worth it. I would love to have something like that.

Maybe try to breed some and only sell them to owners who pass an inspection and who know what they're doing.

[infernalis]

A 10 acre enclosure would be awesome. I wonder if at that size you could probably hold quite a few savs which would make it worth it. I would love to have something like that.

Maybe try to breed some and only sell them to owners who pass an inspection and who know what they're doing.

In response to your breeding comment...

I intend to breed the pair I have, But I will most likely sell the clutch to a big dealer.

If I pre-screen every potential buyer, I will wind up swimming in baby savs, it's just the way it is.

[varanus_mad]

In response to your breeding comment...

I intend to breed the pair I have, But I will most likely sell the clutch to a big dealer.

If I pre-screen every potential buyer, I will wind up swimming in baby savs, it's just the way it is.


I reckons youll be able to sell one clutch per year.

Id be inclined to chuck the rest until they ban export of the species.

[Pirarucu]

I don't think it would be that hard, for one you could probably enlist a few people to help you advertise and/or pre-screen the buyers. I for one wouldn't mind, and I'm confident neither would quite a few others.

[infernalis]

I reckons youll be able to sell one clutch per year.

Id be inclined to chuck the rest until they ban export of the species.

Actually wouldn't there still be a demand for babies in the "off season"

Sadly, the market gets flooded with hatchlings every spring/summer, but autumn/winter all that's available is wild caught juveniles.

Also, the fact that anyone who were to purchase a baby is assured they are getting just what they paid for, as their parents spent their whole life in front of a camera, undoubtedly I will be showing off eggs, reporting incubation, piping videos, etc..

So if anyone who shows me a picture of a proper enclosure wanted one, I would not try and gouge them with a crazy price tag, retail mail order "farmed" babies (don't get me started there) are $35, I'll only ask $50 for a true captive bred Savannah Monitor.

show me a fish tank, it's no sale.

[Pirarucu]

Well said. I plan on buying a couple from you in the future when I have space and money to care for them.

[DiscoPat]

So I will be building Steve's enclosure within the next week or so and I have everything I need except the door. I was wondering what should I use exactly, and if a large window would work as well.

I am just wondering what are my options for this.

[infernalis]

I used a shower door, and anonther member here found a shower door for $15.

and yes, ready framed windows are commonly used.

[simpleyork]

do you have a Habitat for Humanities Restore in your area? or something similar, easy to find used windows there for decent prices. . . they had another door there I should have picked up for the cage I need to build for Godzilla, he's hit his 33 inchish mark this past month and need to start on that now that My Savs no longer live on top of his cage.
Speaking of which he is really picky, he will eat a dead mouse here and there but would rather take live anything else so trying to get my dubias and hissers to reproduce and grow faster

[Pirarucu]

These pictures were shared with me, so I figured I'd post them on here (With the owner's permission.)

This cage was constructed with a 300 gallon stock tank filled with soil, with an 8'x4'x2' top on it.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad77/chairman_tfo/Jane/newenc2.jpg
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad77/chairman_tfo/Jane/DSCN5630.jpg
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad77/chairman_tfo/Jane/DSCN5664.jpg
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad77/chairman_tfo/Jane/DSCN5662.jpg
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad77/chairman_tfo/Jane/DSCN5654.jpg

[infernalis]

I see air leaks, otherwise very awesome.

[Pirarucu]

I do too, but unless you're seeing some that I'm not, it doesn't look too bad. They're small and on the sides, instead of large and on the top, where the heat would carry the humidity straight out.

[infernalis]

just between the side slats.

The Sav itself looks in wonderful shape, so the cage must be working fine for it's intended purpose.

[Pirarucu]

Truth be told, a little leak here or there won't hurt much, though it's obviously preferable to have it completely sealed. As long as it's small and not on the top of the enclosure, it shouldn't have much of an effect, except you may need to water the soil a bit more often to keep it moist.

[varanus_mad]

Truth be told, a little leak here or there won't hurt much, though it's obviously preferable to have it completely sealed. As long as it's small and not on the top of the enclosure, it shouldn't have much of an effect, except you may need to water the soil a bit more often to keep it moist.


At what point does a savs level of constant dehydration become a problem?

i wouldnt like to say.

Id stick with the tried and tested method of no vents.

if its losing humidity in there on a regular basis no matter how small its still leaching from your savs system.

That statement is vague at best and im not entirely sure id feel comfortable saying something like that...

[Rudiman]

My new vive will have no vents, I should get enough air exchange with opening the 30"x50" door every day for general maintenance.

Scott

[infernalis]

My new vive will have no vents, I should get enough air exchange with opening the 30"x50" door every day for general maintenance.

Scott

exactly! Once I ran beads of glue along every seam, and put weather strips on the door, my cage environment stabilized and holds steady.

With the insulation, we had a 24 hour power outage, and the cage never fell below 80 degrees inside.

[Rudiman]

We will be putting weather strip around the "airlock" to the door. Plus the humidifiers draw in a small amount of fresh air from the outside of the vive.

Scott

[infernalis]

sounds like a cunning plan...

[Rudiman]

I figure it's like building a ship inside out.....

Scott

[infernalis]

I figure it's like building a ship inside out.....

Scott


.............http://www.varanus.us/smile/cheers.gif..............

[Pirarucu]

At what point does a savs level of constant dehydration become a problem?

i wouldnt like to say.

Id stick with the tried and tested method of no vents.

if its losing humidity in there on a regular basis no matter how small its still leaching from your savs system.

That statement is vague at best and im not entirely sure id feel comfortable saying something like that...If the water in the soil goes into the air faster than the humid air leaves the cage, then the sav will not become dehydrated, and the cage will stay just as humid as it would if it was sealed. The only difference is that you need to water the soil more to ensure that it is keeping the air humid. I'm not denying that completely sealed isn't better than having leaks, but a small leak is nothing to get on someone about if their cage stays humid enough.

Look at PE's cages. They have leaks where their lamps are, and those are on top, right where the heat will be rising. They still do great.
http://www.proexotics.com/pics_feb_03/a%20fresh%20pics/facility/images/e%20ionides%2010%20ft%20cage%2011-02%204_jpg.jpg

[simpleyork]

Was looking through a Lizard keeping book I bought 12 or so years back, It has one paragraph on Savannah Monitor care and I quote "If the humidity is kept low, plenty of sunshine is provided, and the correct diet is fed to this lizard ,it should prove to be very hardy." end quote
Poor savs that are kept because of this book, My first sav was one of them.

[infernalis]

Don't feel bad..

I have an issue of "Reptiles" magazine from 1998 that has an article about Savannah Monitors in it, says about the same thing, recommends "chicken coop" type enclosures with an inverted ice chest for a hide.

This was read by thousands of lizard enthusiasts.

He used this to suggest a rethink of savannah monitor husbandry that should have landed him in prison.

http://www.varanid.us/shocking/cover.jpg

http://www.varanid.us/shocking/cage.jpg

[Lobretto]

This is my first post here. I came here because of you Wayne, everywhere I look I see your name as a top notch savannah keeper. I have kept a lot of reptiles in my life, some easy some tougher. I have a pair columbian red tail boas that I've had for 11 years, a 3 year old Brazilian rainbow boa, several bearded dragons ranging from a year old to 5. I felt like I was ready to take care of my favorite of all, MONITORS. I've read and read and then read more then finally I got my first, my lovely Ridex, destroyer of roaches, worms, and all things that creep and crawl.

Ridex is about 6 months old and roughly 12-14 inches. I have her in a custom built 6x3x3 enclosure. I there is minimal venting which keeps the day time ambient temp around 85 with a cool area around 78. Night time temp is always around 75 with just 1 ceramic heat emitter. Humidity is kept between 65-75% although near her large water tub for swimming its near 100%. I keep heat tape under the swimming tub to help with the all around humidity and she loves swimming in the 80-85 degree water. There is a ramp that goes up to her basking spot that is 130-150 degrees. There is 12 inches of soil now but when she gets bigger she will be moved into the 8x4x4 with 24 inches. She has a smaller water dish that she uses for drinking, it's amazing how smart she is. I have several hides for her made up of logs and plants on the ground level and one near her basking spot just incase she needs to hide while up top.

I would like to know if this sounds like the road to a happy healthy monitor free from the terrors of slowly dieing to gout. Any advise will be greatly appreciated or just letting me know that all is well is even better! Thanks much!