Boas are in the ban crosshairs

[millertime89]

HR511 has all of the "Big 9" on it and has moved to the House floor. Its got quite a bit of support there. If a companion bill is introduced in the Senate (and its only a matter of time) it won't be long before your boas will become illegal to transport across state lines. You guys are in the crosshairs now, get active. So far its the retic, burm, conda, and A/I rock people that have been carrying this fight, time to do your part.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/epicrates/90743-warning-hr511-back-dead.html

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-discussion/90740-please-voice-your-opposition-snake-ban-bill-hr-511-asap.html

[Terranaut]

Wow. There is a serious problem with your government. I can even understand banning huge snakes in states where its warm enough for them to damage the local eco system and survive the winter but boas??? Come on. Can't see a boa surviving Michigan winter or New York State. Will it be 100% illegal or will you need an interstate commerce permit?
So guns are ok but snakes not. Give me a break!!

[millertime89]

The ONLY places where the big ones can survive are 3 counties in Florida (the everglades counties) and the most extreme southern tip of Texas.

[millertime89]

here, a little reading material for you guys
Pythons Make Strange Bedfellows; House Judiciary Markup on Python Ban Could Compound Economic Woes Dealt to Reptile Industry by Obama Administration - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/pythons-make-strange-bedfellows-house-judiciary-markup-on-python-ban-could-compound-economic-woes-dealt-to-reptile-industry-by-obama-administration-2012-02-28)

[lady_bug87]

^^^ just like when that crazy idiot said that if you have a large constrictor in Ontario and it escapes it will destroy the ecosystem in Ontario.... Canada. Through the winter.

[Terranaut]

Maybe they think "het snow" means winter tolerable??

[Valvaren]

For the canadians I just want to let you know you think this might be far from us but a town not 15 mins drive from me is currently trying to put in affect a ban that will ban snakes that grow over 2 feet and a ban on all arachnids. I can't link to the actual bylaw information itself but you can go to Home | Town of Windsor (http://www.town.windsor.ns.ca/) and download it to review yourself. We currently have people meeting to help change/squash this but let it be known that because of this other places in Canada will attempt to follow suit!.

Emailing and doing what I can for the US to help you guys in your fight against this BS.

[millertime89]

[QUOTE=Valvaren;693582Home | Town of Windsor (http://www.town.windsor.ns.ca/) [/QUOTE]

Dog control bylaw #38?

[Valvaren]

No its bylaw 42, that link was somewhat useless. I have a post from my other forum where it was posted that listed the information but I can't seem to find any on that page other it then the second reading being done today.

[Valvaren]

This is the post from my other forum, our reptile societies are meeting with them tonight and have been in communication with the Department of Natural Resources to help try to squash this. I'm sorry I don't have more information.


The Town of Windsor, Nova Scotia is proposing a Exotics Pets Bylaw. This bylaw, if passed, will limited all snakes to under 2 feet, no arachnids and includes a "destroy on site" provision for any banned animal found in town. Check out the bylaw at the link below.

Home | Town of Windsor (http://www.town.windsor.ns.ca/)

As I am sure the majority of you are aware a 2 foot limit on snakes is basically a complete ban on all snakes. The council has been quoted as saying they are doing this “...for the protection of citizens, first responders at a scene, and the general public.”

NSHS is preparing a formal letter to Windsor town council which outlines our position and will be at the reading of the bylaw.

We encourage all reptile keepers, even non residents of Windsor, to speak out against this bylaw. This bylaw, if passed, could set a very dangerous example if other towns/municipalities look at implementing similar bylaws. Eventually our hobby could be out lawed if we stand by and do nothing.

We encourage everyone to write a letter to the editor of the Hants Journal in order to make the public aware of the issue. Please remember to keep these letters respectful and intelligent. Disrespectful, irate letters will only work to hurt our cause. To submit a letter to the editor email Carole Morris-Underhill at editor@hantsjournal.ca and include your full name, community and phone number (used only to confirm you sent the letter, not published).

[Valvaren]

Actually if you go here Document Details | 42 Exotic Pet Bylaw - Proposed Feb 2012 | Town of Windsor (http://www.town.windsor.ns.ca/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=879&Itemid=190) and click view you can see the bylaw and where it states about the 2 foot rule and other animals that would be banned.

[lady_bug87]

I know Oshawa already has a ban in place and toronto's bylaw is a 3m limit

[Terranaut]

But Hamilton just weny the other way and move up to 3meters for snakes and 2 for lizards.
I just don't get why we have bans here at all. Nothing is going to survive -10 outside other than indigenous stuff anyway = no chance of more than 3-4 months out feeding so even if they took prey every 2 weeks thats 6-8 animals per lost pet = who frickin cares. How many releases would become bird food anyway? This is all just a big "look at me" political tactic here in Canada and in most of the US as well. What a wave of crap. I feel like Po in Kung Fu Panda " this may be the end of Kung Fu" ..... " ahh man I just got Kung Fu"

If I see one good thing about this is many people who sell snakes are worried and prices have fallen on many species. This puts them in reach of more people and younger people who will grow up knowing the truth about snakes and how truly enjoyable they are.
The youth of today are our leaders tomorrow. Educate them.

[Gungirl]

I understand how important this is to most of us but do you really need to create a new thread every day about the bans? why not keep posting in 1 thread?

[exwizard]

Iowas snake laws are a patchwork as Ive stated elsewhere. Iowa bans Retics, Anacondas and African Rocks. Des Moines limits everything else to 6' unless you have a permit. There are other cities and counties that ban snakes entirely. Yeah, I dont get it either. These laws and ordinances are usually written by ignorant lawmakers that dont know any better I guess.

[Skumbo]

I understand how important this is to most of us but do you really need to create a new thread every day about the bans? why not keep posting in 1 thread?

They'll come for our guns next *sigh*

It is "annoying" but i didn't notice till his third thread, to be honest to you. It might be for the better.

[lady_bug87]

I understand how important this is to most of us but do you really need to create a new thread every day about the bans? why not keep posting in 1 thread?

It's true really I'm hoping Wayne combines them and this doesn't turn into the mudslinging crapfest it was last time

[exwizard]

It's true really I'm hoping this doesn't turn into the mudslinging crapfest it was last time

If it does, I will avoid it like the plague. Thats a promise.

[lady_bug87]

Good call lol

[millertime89]

I understand how important this is to most of us but do you really need to create a new thread every day about the bans? why not keep posting in 1 thread?

how many people actually check the other sections? The more people that are aware of what's going on the better. If this thread is combined with the others this forum is lost and I'll leave for good. The attitudes some people take towards this is infuriating. I've seen it on BP facebook groups and their attitude is "well this doesn't affect me, so why should I care?"
I'll tell you why, what happens when it DOES affect you? You can be sure those of us that this does affect are going to be right there fighting for your rights despite the fact that you (not directed at anyone here in particular) didn't help fight for ours.

[Lankyrob]

Everytime any thread is updated it appears o the new posts screen, we dont need constant barrages of new threads at all.

[Gungirl]

how many people actually check the other sections? The more people that are aware of what's going on the better. If this thread is combined with the others this forum is lost and I'll leave for good. The attitudes some people take towards this is infuriating. I've seen it on BP facebook groups and their attitude is "well this doesn't affect me, so why should I care?"
I'll tell you why, what happens when it DOES affect you? You can be sure those of us that this does affect are going to be right there fighting for your rights despite the fact that you (not directed at anyone here in particular) didn't help fight for ours.


Ok.. don't get your panties in a twist. I get it, I agree with fighting this. I also think that by posting a ton of threads on it you are going to start annoying the crap out of people. If someone doesn't care about then having 10 threads on it will make them care less not more. 1 thread is enough IMO. That is all I was stating.

[Shmoges]

Something as important as this should have a sticky in each forum that is linked to one thread. Miller made me feel a bit embarrassed and I have to change the way I look at these bans. At first I thought oh well I don't have any inclination to keep big snakes at all so it doesn't affect me but who will be there for me when it does affect me. I need to support my brothers and sisters who do keep these animals and not say the stereotypical response "Good thing there banning them, to many idiots have big snakes and don't take care of them" This whole thing is analogous to Nazi Germany and the persecution of Jews. Control control control!!

I am sure having bills pass with your name on them make you look successful as a politician. Perhaps this is an easy area for them to attack?

[KORBIN5895]

It's true really I'm hoping Wayne combines them and this doesn't turn into the mudslinging crapfest it was last time

I actually kinda hope it does turn into a crapfest. I missed out on the last one.:(

As for calling and opposing the ban are people giving any helpful ways to handle these problems or are we just saying "don't touch our snakes!" Personally I think these bans are rediculous but ignorant politicians are feeding ignorant people. Let's educate and propose alternative solutions.

Also I fail to see the correlation between U.S. snake bans and Nazi Germany. I will check with my Jewish grandmother and get back to you on that.

[Shmoges]

I am loosly referencing this poem I heard about Nazi's uhhhgg it went like this "They came and took our something, but I did not have any something. Then they came and took our something else, but I did not have that either. Then they came and took our uhhhg and there was no one left to help me. I read it in school and feel terrible that I can't remember it I think it was came and took our men but I was not married then came and took our children but I had non then they came for me and I was all alone...

The idea it implied was banding together with strength in numbers. Sorry I butchered it :P

[lady_bug87]

I actually kinda hope it does turn into a crapfest. I missed out on the last one.:(

As for calling and opposing the ban are people giving any helpful ways to handle these problems or are we just saying "don't touch our snakes!" Personally I think these bans are rediculous but ignorant politicians are feeding ignorant people. Let's educate and propose alternative solutions.

Also I fail to see the correlation between U.S. snake bans and Nazi Germany. I will check with my Jewish grandmother and get back to you on that.


Trust me it was bad...

[millertime89]

Here's the poem that shmoges was referencing, and it was adapted for this fight already.

First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Here's the edited version.
First they came for the Burms, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own a Burm.
Then they came for the Retics, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own a Retic.
Then they came for the Boas, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own a Boa.
Then they came for my snakes, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

You can change that to suit really any animals, I've seen it go: Snakes, lizards, arachnids, pets, and other variations.

I seldom use the "New posts" function, I just check the sections that interest me. I don't particularly care to go through the colubrid, blood, BP, and lizard (except monitor) sections. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Korbin, I'm not sure what people are saying exactly, I know when I called I explained the bad science behind the study and how the addition to the list will negatively punish the people who are trying to do the right thing by keeping their animals instead of releasing them into the wild.

[lady_bug87]

I've been respectful. Up until now I have held my tongue that's over. my personal feelings of the actual ban aside, this is a comment to what I feel is a gross confusion of the differences between human rights and human privileges.

You are actually comparing human rights and workers' rights to not being able to move your snakes. Pet ownership is a privilege not a right. if your state decides to attempt to change the parameters of those privileges you have the right to contest it but don't sit here and compare it to when the SS came for the Jews. I'm pretty sure those affected by the horrors of Anti-semitism would disagree.

There are people in your country and in mine who are starving, who can't afford healthcare, who live on the street and you're kicking up dust because you can't move with your damn snake? That is selfish. How hard are you fighting for equal rights? How many petitions are you signing to improve the education system in a country where your education system is failing? How many governors are you calling in regards to providing affordable care for the sick and elderly?

You call people lazy because they don't want to fight for a privilege. Yet how many people are too lazy to fight for rights like food, affordable housing and healthcare, equal treatment and all the other crap that everyday people have to face?

To answer the question about what I would do if they came for my collection I would do my best to keep what I could, get permits for the rest if I can't then i guess I would figure it out.

I'm not saying don't be passionate about this hobby I'm passionate too but I find it disgraceful to compare these new legislations to genocide.

You can reply and bash me and hate on me for what I said, I really don't care because to be honest I found that really offensive. I stayed out of he bashing before this and I intend to after this.

If other members feel that this legislation is comparable to fighting for workers rights, equal treatment, and Anti-semitism then this forum is not where I belong.

[Skumbo]

*edited out so it isnt a huge quote*

I completely agree with you. We recently had to fight an all-encompassing ban on "hand rolled cigars" on a cigar forum, everyone was all up in arms etc etc "THEY'RE TAKING OUR FREEDOMS" and yeah, it'd suck to not be able to buy any cigars, and it would put hundreds of thousands of people out of jobs (domestic and foreign)

The way im looking at it though, isnt from a "i like having snakes" standpoint, but look at it from somebody who did everything they were supposed to in america...

They worked hard, spent a lot of time and money and sweat to establish a breeding business, turned down other career opportunities, etc etc because they wanted to breed snakes and selling them is how they make their living. Now put a huge ban on snakes which could lead to further bans on more snakes, and thats not taking away that persons "privilege" to sell snakes, but taking away their livelihood and the last thing this country needs is more jobless people. THAT is the huge argument that much be put forward, not "ITS OUR RIGHT TO HAVE SNAKES!" but "The hundreds if not thousands of individuals who support their families through breeding snakes legally will lose their livelihood and be stuck with TONS of money worth of snakes and sustaining current snakes with no way to sell or breed or get rid of them. they will be stuck paying for tons of money in sustaining all these breeding snakes and no way to make money back, it will bankrupt many individuals and displace (put into the wild) many snakes that would otherwise stay in breeding facilities, homes, etc. THE BAN IN THIS WAY WOULD IN FACT CAUSE MORE SNAKES TO BE PUT INTO THE WILD (and die cause this ban is stupid and none of the snakes will survive most of the United States weather but thats another argument entirely)


now do you see how it would really be taking away individuals rights to not go way into debt because of a stupid law (worse than losing a job, but being stuck with hundreds or even thousands of snakes which cost $$$$ to keep alive) it's like saying you have to keep paying all your employees but you cant open for business anymore.

[lady_bug87]

^^^ agreed and I completely know where that is coming from what I don't like is when it's compared to stuff like the Genocide the Jews faced. The breeders loosing business IS a real problem. However calling keepers 'lazy' is inappropriate in my opinion when there are other fights out there with bigger and worse circumstances.

I hope it works out for everyone. I just don't want it confused with a human right considering when the auto market crashed I didn't hear of people rushing to call senators... That affected thousands too.

[Skumbo]

^^^ agreed and I completely know where that is coming from what I don't like is when it's compared to stuff like the Genocide the Jews faced. The breeders loosing business IS a real problem. However calling keepers 'lazy' is inappropriate in my opinion when there are other fights out there with bigger and worse circumstances.

I hope it works out for everyone. I just don't want it confused with a human right considering when the auto market crashed I didn't hear of people rushing to call senators... That affected thousands too.

Yup!

Or when my family lost millions (that we didnt have) because nobody wanted to buy motorcycles (Harley dealerships) so he paid all his employees out of pocket since the income didn't cover it at all. My dad ended up using all of his saved money (hes almost 60 and has been a successful business man for a long time) we bled out about $90,000 a month for 3 years paying employees when he easily could have just fired everyone, closed up shop, and called it a retirement. Hes just now working his way out of the hole and trying to sell off all the businesses to break even because we got screwed over so badly. And who gets billions from the government?

Car makers, of course. Who make thousands of job cuts just so they can have bigger bonuses..

The world isnt fair, but we can only fight our own battles as well as we can.



the same may happen to breeders. cut off their income, but they still have to bleed money into keeping these animals alive for 20+ more years

[lady_bug87]

Yea the world is one faint crapfest.

I really respect businessmen like your dad who looks after his employees a lot of people here got screwed over when the auto market crashed in fact a whole time was on the brink of poverty.

I really hope stuff works out for you and your family.

[millertime89]

Those are not my words, he mentioned the poem, and I posted it in its original form as well as the modified version. While I agree with what you said in regards to it being appalling that people compare the two situations, the fact is, the statement holds true. It happened. They got Burms, African and Indian Rock Pythons, and Yellow Anacondas, and look what happened? They took it further.

[millertime89]

Warning: Slightly inflamatory statement. Highlight to read. If you're easily offended, don't read it. If you want to respond to a specific part, make sure you quote the color code too.


I'm a straight shooter and I call it like I see it. Sorry if you don't like it. But I'm really curious about how many people on this board disagree with the ban and have actually done something about it? Do you know what that's called? Free riding. Its a political theory with examples throughout human history. I'm willing to bet most of the people in this thread AREN'T the ones that that's directed at. I would like to think the people on this board are better than that, but let's face the facts, there are going to be some on here. I promise you this is not the only board like this either.

[lady_bug87]

I read it and I wasn't offended I'm also not sure I understand what you're trying to say would you mind clarifying?

[millertime89]

which part? The font color I used was LemonChiffon.

[lady_bug87]

[/[COLOR="LemonChiffon"]Just the free riding part I get the curiosity thing just the end I wasn't sure aboutCOLOR]

[millertime89]

Free riding is when people ride on the contributions and efforts of others. This is an example because those people that don't like the ban sit back and rely on the contributions and efforts of those of us actually doing something in the hopes that we succeed.

[Skumbo]

Free riding is when people ride on the contributions and efforts of others. This is an example because those people that don't like the ban sit back and rely on the contributions and efforts of those of us actually doing something in the hopes that we succeed.

its the american way!

(sadly)

[millertime89]

yes, unfortunately. I don't know how many of my classes we've discussed this problem in.

[KORBIN5895]

While I agree with what you said in regards to it being appalling that people compare the two situations, the fact is, the statement holds true.

Would you mind trying to explain to me how these compare again?

[lady_bug87]

its the american way!

(sadly)

It's true. It's like people that don't vote then complain about the government

[Norm66]

It's true. It's like people that don't vote then complain about the government

I vote, but very much feel like it doesn't do any good. I almost exclusively vote against candidates rather than for candidates. Our country has a ruling class that can only be swayed by big money special interest and if you're not represented by a big money special interest group you are essentially unrepresented. We can make phone calls, e-mails, send angry messages on snake forums but we can't really change anything.

[millertime89]

found the original edited version
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426976_382454278432701_100000043974073_1506753_978 117351_n.jpg

[millertime89]

Would you mind trying to explain to me how these compare again?

The government takes away the rights of one group (communists/burm owners and breeders), realize they can get away with it, then move on to the next group, and then the next group.

[Valvaren]

I don't think Millertime is trying to compare them on a emotional/tragic scale but more of a basic movement of the act itself.

[Norm66]

USArk's reply via Herp Nation's radio show:

» BREAKING NEWS: USARK REsponse to HR 511 (python ban) committee hearing Herp Nation Magazine – Reptiles Amphibians Herpetology Husbandry (http://www.herpnation.com/audio/breaking-news-usark-response-to-hr-511-python-ban-committee-hearing/?simple_nav_category=audio)Here's

[KORBIN5895]

So at what point do you think they will put us snake owners in concentration camps?

[Norm66]

So at what point do you think they will put us snake owners in concentration camps?


It's got nothing to do with concentration camps. It's just about the people who didn't do anything because whatever it was didn't affect them, but eventually they came for their "whatever" too. It's a call to arms is all.

The poem could be about drugs with heroin and cocaine at the top and caffeine at the bottom. It could be about pit bulls and rottweilers at the top with golden retrievers and poodles at the bottom. It could be about Whoppers and Big Macs at the top with all meat products at the bottom.

It's a commentary on the slippery slope concept, not a direct comparison between what the Nazis did to the Jews in the 30s and 40s.

[KORBIN5895]

It's got nothing to do with concentration camps. It's just about the people who didn't do anything because whatever it was didn't affect them, but eventually they came for their "whatever" too. It's a call to arms is all.

The poem could be about drugs with heroin and cocaine at the top and caffeine at the bottom. It could be about pit bulls and rottweilers at the top with golden retrievers and poodles at the bottom. It could be about Whoppers and Big Macs at the top with all meat products at the bottom.

It's a commentary on the slippery slope concept, not a direct comparison between what the Nazis did to the Jews in the 30s and 40s.

Oh is that all? Maybe it would be better to use a different example than Nazi Germany. I am not the type of person that like sensationalism. Comparing this ban to the Nazis is pretty sensational if you ask me.

[Norm66]

It's a commentary on the slippery slope concept, not a direct comparison between what the Nazis did to the Jews in the 30s and 40s.

I just don't know how to say it any clearer.

[KORBIN5895]

Something as important as this should have a sticky in each forum that is linked to one thread. Miller made me feel a bit embarrassed and I have to change the way I look at these bans. At first I thought oh well I don't have any inclination to keep big snakes at all so it doesn't affect me but who will be there for me when it does affect me. I need to support my brothers and sisters who do keep these animals and not say the stereotypical response "Good thing there banning them, to many idiots have big snakes and don't take care of them" This whole thing is analogous to Nazi Germany and the persecution of Jews. Control control control!!

I am sure having bills pass with your name on them make you look successful as a politician. Perhaps this is an easy area for them to attack?

You don't have to Norm. He did.

[Norm66]

You don't have to Norm. He did.

Oh, I missed that. I thought you were talking about the 'When they came for...' poem. Yea, that's a gross overstatement. LOL.

What the heck though, people are upset. I'm particularly upset because the bill in WV will force me to give up most of my animals if it passes. I'll be able to afford to keep a couple. Maybe. Then the decision will be to go rogue (and risk having my animals destroyed) or pay up. So yea, I can see where people are upset about their rights (and no I don't see pet ownership as a privelege) being removed by the state as a knee-jerk reaction to a few irresponsible owners and one giant whacko.

[Skumbo]

You don't have to Norm. He did.

you realize analogous means compared in a way that makes the other scenario more clear, and not a direct comparison in any way. Don't go pointing fingers unless you understand the language used.

[millertime89]

It's a commentary on the slippery slope concept, not a direct comparison between what the Nazis did to the Jews in the 30s and 40s.

I just don't know how to say it any clearer.

Norm hit the nail on the head, its one big slippery slope, and that's the LAST thing any of us here wants.

you realize analogous means compared in a way that makes the other scenario more clear, and not a direct comparison in any way. Don't go pointing fingers unless you understand the language used.

easy there, lets keep this peaceful here.
Korbin, analogous =/= equivalent, not sure where you got that.

[red ink]

Can someone explain to me the intricacies of the "bill"... it's all a bit sentsationalised with poems and all at the moment.

1) What are the species in the ban?

2) What does "ban" actually mean legislation wise?

3) Are they actually going to come in and euthanise your pet snakes, as that's what's coming accross with the use of that poem?

[Skumbo]

Can someone explain to me the intricacies of the "bill"... it's all a bit sentsationalised with poems and all at the moment.

1) What are the species in the ban?

2) What does "ban" actually mean legislation wise?

3) Are they actually going to come in and euthanise your pet snakes, as that's what's coming accross with the use of that poem?

What i understand is that you can not move any banned snakes across state borders. So everyone who has a banned snake can keep their snake, but if you ever need to move, go across state borders for a vet, etc etc its illegal. The point is to stop people from importing snakes into Florida (essentially) but they already have a state law limiting snakes being imported into the state, so i have no idea what the point is other than political jargon to get reelected.

Snakes that will be marked as "dangerous to wildlife" included:
Burmese python
Indian python
Northern African python
Southern African python
Reticulated python
Boa constrictor
Green anaconda
Yellow anaconda
Beni anaconda
DeSchauensee’s anaconda


the main argument behind this being "stupid" is that all of those snakes cannot survive outside of 3 lower counties in Florida and the most southern tip of Texas, all other states in the US will kill these snakes quickly based purely on the cold nevermind lack of food in many places.

The "argument" for it is based on the ill-informed idea that pet snakes can "get out" and "ruin wildlife" in the same way that only the largest of snakes did for a limited time in Florida. It has been proven that 80-90% of the snakes causing issues in Florida died in the last few years due to "slightly colder winters", everywhere else in the US are significantly colder during the winter than those three counties that were "too cold" the last few years anyway.

[Shmoges]

I stand behind my sensationalism. Thanks Millertime for finding that poem. Comparing situations in history to current affairs makes people take notice and respond. People dying in the millions has nothing to do with snake ownership and that's not where I was going so settle the hell down if you think that's what I meant.

[KORBIN5895]

you realize analogous means compared in a way that makes the other scenario more clear, and not a direct comparison in any way. Don't go pointing fingers unless you understand the language used.

Nice editing skumbo.

a·nal·o·gous /əˈnaləgəs/Adjective:
1. Comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.

Nazi Germany is not comparable in any way, shape or form to our current government or this ban. I don not see the how you guys can marginalize 15 million deaths by comparing it to some stupid restrictions that can't be forced anyway. I am amazed that you could even still be arguing that it is okay to compare the two. Like I said when the feds start taking our houses and shoving us into cattle cars because we own snakes then it will be okay to compare the two. I am really pissed with your ignorance and self righteousness and will not be reading these threads anymore.

As far as I am concerned what has been said here can stay here because I will not carry it over to other threads.


No Kyle I am not moving to Mexico. That is Roy you are thinking about.

[red ink]

What i understand is that you can not move any banned snakes across state borders. So everyone who has a banned snake can keep their snake, but if you ever need to move, go across state borders for a vet, etc etc its illegal. The point is to stop people from importing snakes into Florida (essentially) but they already have a state law limiting snakes being imported into the state, so i have no idea what the point is other than political jargon to get reelected.

Snakes that will be marked as "dangerous to wildlife" included:
Burmese python
Indian python
Northern African python
Southern African python
Reticulated python
Boa constrictor
Green anaconda
Yellow anaconda
Beni anaconda
DeSchauensee’s anaconda


the main argument behind this being "stupid" is that all of those snakes cannot survive outside of 3 lower counties in Florida and the most southern tip of Texas, all other states in the US will kill these snakes quickly based purely on the cold nevermind lack of food in many places.

The "argument" for it is based on the ill-informed idea that pet snakes can "get out" and "ruin wildlife" in the same way that only the largest of snakes did for a limited time in Florida. It has been proven that 80-90% of the snakes causing issues in Florida died in the last few years due to "slightly colder winters", everywhere else in the US are significantly colder during the winter than those three counties that were "too cold" the last few years anyway.


So this version of the "ban" isn't going to take your snakes away, you just won't be able to move them from state lines. Wasn't that the same clause as the previous proposed "ban"?

Does the "ban" abolish the breeding of these snakes within a state?
Will it make breeding these snakes illegal?

[Skumbo]

So this version of the "ban" isn't going to take your snakes away, you just won't be able to move them from state lines. Wasn't that the same clause as the previous proposed "ban"?

Does the "ban" abolish the breeding of these snakes within a state?
Will it make breeding these snakes illegal?

No. but it will make selling them across state borders illegal, as well as shipping across borders illegal, which cuts off a ton of customers for a ton of people. This also means any expo you go to has to be from people within your state with these snakes, nobody will be bringing any of these cross border for expos because that's illegal as well.

Honestly, from a pet owners perspective, and not a breeders perspective (though this may hamper my dreams to one day breed BRB's if they keep adding snakes) its not that bad. nobody is going to check all your luggage when you move, and you can easily claim, in the extremely rare chance someone wanted to "get you" for importing a snake into a state, that you purchased the snake within the state, as it isn't even close to illegal to breed any of these snakes, you just cant bring them to other states.

this is actually the same "ban" proposed before, just with more snakes on it (it originally had all these, it was moved down to 3 (i believe, maybe 4?) and that was a "victory" then it was brought back at this on short notice with the full original "9")

[red ink]

No. but it will make selling them across state borders illegal, as well as shipping across borders illegal, which cuts off a ton of customers for a ton of people. This also means any expo you go to has to be from people within your state with these snakes, nobody will be bringing any of these cross border for expos because that's illegal as well.

Honestly, from a pet owners perspective, and not a breeders perspective (though this may hamper my dreams to one day breed BRB's if they keep adding snakes) its not that bad. nobody is going to check all your luggage when you move, and you can easily claim, in the extremely rare chance someone wanted to "get you" for importing a snake into a state, that you purchased the snake within the state, as it isn't even close to illegal to breed any of these snakes, you just cant bring them to other states.

this is actually the same "ban" proposed before, just with more snakes on it (it originally had all these, it was moved down to 3 (i believe, maybe 4?) and that was a "victory" then it was brought back at this on short notice with the full original "9")

If that was the case then....

Mate I would say that this "ban" is a non-event. All it's restricting is movement of animals not making the animals themselves "illegal".

1) You can still breed/sell in your state (maybe a chance to create a niche market for the hobby breeder)

2) Levels the playing field for the breeders out there...

3) You can't police what crosses state borders, you can just say you bought it there (as you said)

4) It's not enforceable (this from a licensing experience where I am) as there not even a regulatory body that will be monitoring this. There's no proposed census of your animals, so how would they no what you have and don't have or where the heck you bought it from.

5) No animal is "illegal" so realistically no biggie... I really don't see the state governments monitoring their borders that closely looking for "snakes". Or them knocking at your door saying "hey wait a minute that a new damn snake"

[Skumbo]

If that was the case then....

Mate I would say that this "ban" is a non-event. All it's restricting is movement of animals not making the animals themselves "illegal".

1) You can still breed/sell in your state (maybe a chance to create a niche market for the hobby breeder)

2) Levels the playing field for the breeders out there...

3) You can't police what crosses state borders, you can just say you bought it there (as you said)

4) It's not enforceable (this from a licensing experience where I am) as there not even a regulatory body that will be monitoring this. There's no proposed census of your animals, so how would they no what you have and don't have or where the heck you bought it from.

5) No animal is "illegal" so realistically no biggie... I really don't see the state governments monitoring their borders that closely looking for "snakes". Or them knocking at your door saying "hey wait a minute that a new damn snake"

Exactly! The thing is just avoiding this going through because none of us want it to "open the floodgates" for instance.

I had a really awesome (and depressing) conversation with a friend at college, shes graduating in a few months and will be going back to norway (not what she was planning on) and needs to find a new home for her ball python (im going to take it in most likely) because of a "similar issue" that eventually sprung a ruling in 1977 (yeah a while ago, but the law still stands.) causing an all encompassing ban on reptile ownership in norway. All captive (even in zoos) offspring must be immediately exported (not sold though) or euthanized by law.

That said, its "estimated" that the "illegal herpiles are in the 100,000's in norway, and over 1,000 have been seized/euthanize (they just freeze them or shoot them to death usually on site) by the norweigan government (i looked into it a bit, there are stories about authorities coming in and not being able to confiscate an animal on technicality, so they "taped off" a mans living room and let the animal starve to death before he was allowed into that part of his house again. Others have come home to their animals out in their front yard frozen to death during the winter, as police get search warrants based on "suspected" ownership of reptiles a lot there, apparently.

take my rant as an example of why we don't want bans to begin, because in 40 years we may be in a country where the police can show up and murder your pets because they're not furry enough.

Keep in mind how heart breaking this is for my friend, she came here to study to become a veterinarian, and mainly wants to focus on reptiles, and because of her visa issues she has to move back to a country where its a felony to posses a reptile (keep in mind 5 months out of the year the average temperate is about -5 there, so these bans were passed purely due to sensationalism and political reasons.)

[millertime89]

But it IS enforceable. We post on here about the species we have and acquire and I promise you when I move out of this state I'll be posting a rave about it. All they would have to do is come track me down and prove that I had the animal in both states and then prosecute me as they see fit. I would rather not run the risk of becoming a felon but I also don't want to get rid of my pets. What about the members of the military that don't have a choice where they move sometimes and have these animals.

The two species of Anaconda being on the list is ridiculous as well. One is present in no known collections and the other is only found in research labs/zoos.

Guess what?! MORE GOOD NEWS! NDAA went active tonight, go read a bit about it.

[Norm66]

I think I know where you're coming from Red Ink...from your point of view this ban doesn't seem too bad because of the restrictions you live with. Our point of view is a little different because we're not used to restrictions and don't want to be saddled with ones similar to some other countries. And as Skumbo mentioned a lot of us see these as stepping stones to total bans down the line.

IMHO all because "because they're not furry enough."

[Skumbo]

saying these snakes are dangerous to wildlife is like saying poodles are dangerous because other canines pack hunt antelope. Wouldnt want poodles out there murdering our specious ecosystem right? Right! Ban all poodles!


At the same time though, CRAZY things pop up in legislation all the time, there was a proposed ban last year that got this far that called for every sport to be banned in the united states because they were "too dangerous" and "Clearing land for sporting fields was ruining wildlife"

so you never know, it could get squashed

[red ink]

But it IS enforceable. We post on here about the species we have and acquire and I promise you when I move out of this state I'll be posting a rave about it. All they would have to do is come track me down and prove that I had the animal in both states and then prosecute me as they see fit. I would rather not run the risk of becoming a felon but I also don't want to get rid of my pets. What about the members of the military that don't have a choice where they move sometimes and have these animals.

The two species of Anaconda being on the list is ridiculous as well. One is present in no known collections and the other is only found in research labs/zoos.

Guess what?! MORE GOOD NEWS! NDAA went active tonight, go read a bit about it.


I'm not trying to start an argument here.... just want to point out a few things.

1) "We post on here about the species we have and acquire and I promise you when I move out of this state I'll be posting a rave about it"

Mate if that's the only way they can enforce it.... by people freely admitting they are breaking the law.... WELL, I'm sorry you deserve to get caught. It's like dumb criminals posting about crimes they have commited and wonder why they got caught and doing 10 - life.

2) "All they would have to do is come track me down and prove that I had the animal in both states and then prosecute me as they see fit."

I'm not advocating breaking legal laws but if the laws are this stupid then, it's "on them" as I see it. Again they are not that smart in the first place (hence trying to make this a law).

How about:
" Nah mate I sold that snake off to some guy in that state...."
" I bought this one here to compensate for my grief of losing my pet "

Again they only way you get caught is if you let them catch you.

3) "I would rather not run the risk of becoming a felon but I also don't want to get rid of my pets."

Do you really think that owning a snake "banned" will be a felony offence. I'm pretty sure there are no animals out there that carry a felony offence.


4) "What about the members of the military that don't have a choice where they move sometimes and have these animals."

That's life in the service mate... part and parcel of it. I'm sure service men leave behind more than just their beloved pets each time they move. Being posted interstate or being posted in Australia... all part of it mate.

[youngster]

Red has a good point

If they banned carpets and I had to move to VT how would anyone know?
I have no documents proving Mayhem has ever been in this state or that I even own him.
They can't trace the snake anywhere.

[millertime89]

I'm not trying to start an argument here.... just want to point out a few things.

1) "We post on here about the species we have and acquire and I promise you when I move out of this state I'll be posting a rave about it"

Mate if that's the only way they can enforce it.... by people freely admitting they are breaking the law.... WELL, I'm sorry you deserve to get caught. It's like dumb criminals posting about crimes they have commited and wonder why they got caught and doing 10 - life.

2) "All they would have to do is come track me down and prove that I had the animal in both states and then prosecute me as they see fit."

I'm not advocating breaking legal laws but if the laws are this stupid then, it's "on them" as I see it. Again they are not that smart in the first place (hence trying to make this a law).

How about:
" Nah mate I sold that snake off to some guy in that state...."
" I bought this one here to compensate for my grief of losing my pet "

Again they only way you get caught is if you let them catch you.

3) "I would rather not run the risk of becoming a felon but I also don't want to get rid of my pets."

Do you really think that owning a snake "banned" will be a felony offence. I'm pretty sure there are no animals out there that carry a felony offence.


4) "What about the members of the military that don't have a choice where they move sometimes and have these animals."

That's life in the service mate... part and parcel of it. I'm sure service men leave behind more than just their beloved pets each time they move. Being posted interstate or being posted in Australia... all part of it mate.

1,2. We don't even have to admit to it, when we move to a different state we have to register in that state our vehicles, get a driver's license for that state, register to vote, and a number of other things that I'm not entirely sure about that I'm sure has to do with living there/owning a home there. Some states require permits, what happens when I go to file for a permit for my animals and they ask where they came from? Do I produce fake receipts and hope they don't check them? Or do I produce the originals and show that I broke the law? I had better hope I can find a breeder working with my species in my new state to say I bought from him? What if that state requires a breeder to keep track of all of his animals and he lies and says I bought from him and they ask to see the list of his inventory? Too many ways to get caught.

3. The Lacey Act does just that, makes it a felony to transport these species across state lines. Lacey Act of 1900
From section 3373: any person who knowingly violates section
3372 (d) of this title, may be assessed a civil penalty by the Secretary of not more than 10,000 for each such violation

From section 3375: if the person has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony; may search and seize, with or without a warrant, in accordance with any guidelines which may be issued by the Attorney General

So yeah, felony.

4. I'm not talking about deployment, a lot of the servicemembers I know have pets that go with them when they move, especially if they have families. But I can see your point.

[millertime89]

Here's the Lacey Act of 1900 if you want to read it.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=us%20lacey%20act%201900&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fws.gov%2Fle%2Fpdffiles%2FLac ey.pdf&ei=okBQT9HXEYzvggfOqaDjDQ&usg=AFQjCNEjm10UfoVV0xjVDVEgB_q29nrNYw

[Skumbo]

1,2. We don't even have to admit to it, when we move to a different state we have to register in that state our vehicles, get a driver's license for that state, register to vote, and a number of other things that I'm not entirely sure about that I'm sure has to do with living there/owning a home there. Some states require permits, what happens when I go to file for a permit for my animals and they ask where they came from? Do I produce fake receipts and hope they don't check them? Or do I produce the originals and show that I broke the law? I had better hope I can find a breeder working with my species in my new state to say I bought from him? What if that state requires a breeder to keep track of all of his animals and he lies and says I bought from him and they ask to see the list of his inventory? Too many ways to get caught.

3. The Lacey Act does just that, makes it a felony to transport these species across state lines. Lacey Act of 1900
From section 3373: any person who knowingly violates section
3372 (d) of this title, may be assessed a civil penalty by the Secretary of not more than 10,000 for each such violation

From section 3375: if the person has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony; may search and seize, with or without a warrant, in accordance with any guidelines which may be issued by the Attorney General

So yeah, felony.

4. I'm not talking about deployment, a lot of the servicemembers I know have pets that go with them when they move, especially if they have families. But I can see your point.

"I went to ___ expo"

"No I don't remember his name, I just bought it there"

that's all it takes. they cant prove you guilty, so therefore you have reasonable doubt to be innocent.

that is, if they even tried to check, which they wont.

Let me put it this way..

hundreds of thousands of baggies of weed cross state lines every year, and sit obviously displayed in houses, bedrooms, etc.

nobody checks and nobody knows unless its an obvious stupid incident like having a giant bag of it in your passenger seat and getting pulled over or smoking it on your deck or something.

that said, those people are actually being actively pursued by governing bodies with regulating bodies etc etc while our "ban" barely has anyone who will check let alone KNOW about the law.

lets say you get pulled over while moving into a state and you have a boa in your back seat in a big box or something (kept warm etc) and the cop asks "whats in the box"
"Oh that's my pet snake"

"oh cool, i never had one of those" or "oh huh weird"

most cops wont even KNOW there's a snake importing law, and if they ask you just claim its a colubrid or something not banned and off you go, anyone knowing anything about snakes would probably be against the ban anyway.

[red ink]

1,2. We don't even have to admit to it, when we move to a different state we have to register in that state our vehicles, get a driver's license for that state, register to vote, and a number of other things that I'm not entirely sure about that I'm sure has to do with living there/owning a home there. Some states require permits, what happens when I go to file for a permit for my animals and they ask where they came from? Do I produce fake receipts and hope they don't check them? Or do I produce the originals and show that I broke the law? I had better hope I can find a breeder working with my species in my new state to say I bought from him? What if that state requires a breeder to keep track of all of his animals and he lies and says I bought from him and they ask to see the list of his inventory? Too many ways to get caught.

3. The Lacey Act does just that, makes it a felony to transport these species across state lines. Lacey Act of 1900
From section 3373: any person who knowingly violates section
3372 (d) of this title, may be assessed a civil penalty by the Secretary of not more than 10,000 for each such violation

From section 3375: if the person has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony; may search and seize, with or without a warrant, in accordance with any guidelines which may be issued by the Attorney General

So yeah, felony.

4. I'm not talking about deployment, a lot of the servicemembers I know have pets that go with them when they move, especially if they have families. But I can see your point.

1 2 3)

Fair enough mate... I did'nt know they were going to enforce it as a felony. I still don't see them devoting that much (if any) money and man power to look for snakes though. Govt are businesses, the bill will pacify the stakeholders... the enforcement of it will cost the business money. Money they do not easily part with...

Heck, they don't put enough money on things that actually matter, I'm VERY skeptical on them putting in the time, manpower, and money on making this work.

Again I think the only way to get caught is to blatantly flaunt it in their face.

[millertime89]

I don't think they're going to dedicate much time and effort into it in the majority of the states, but I woudl really rather not find out.

Re: saying you bought it an expo. Its all going to come down to local laws. If this gets passed on the national level you can bet states and cities are going to start passing more restrictive laws, and documentation is probably gonna be the easiest thing for them to get passed.

[Skumbo]

I don't think they're going to dedicate much time and effort into it in the majority of the states, but I woudl really rather not find out.

Re: saying you bought it an expo. Its all going to come down to local laws. If this gets passed on the national level you can bet states and cities are going to start passing more restrictive laws, and documentation is probably gonna be the easiest thing for them to get passed.

yeah, but ill be honest, I don't see it fully going through, at least not with the "full list" not that any affect the snakes I have or plan on having anyway. Adding even more would be harder than it seems, but ive seen some weird stuff get as far as this one (last year a bill to abolish all sporting activity in the entire United States other than pro sports was put through to a vote because "injury rates were too high" and "land used for sporting fields was damaging wildlife" and those actually had some background, but obviously were ill-founded.