Oh, crap.

[Spaghetti]

Well, my little burm, the one who arrived in bad weather after being delayed for way too long. He still doesn't have a name...it's not my most pressing concern right now.

As others have warned me might happen, he has developed a wheezing/clicking when he breathes. He did eat, however, and seems happy in every other aspect.

Since raising the humidity didn't seem to have the effect of heading off the RI, should I instead try to make the enclosure very dry? I've already gotten his temps way up.

I'd really like for him to be able to fight this on his own, but if he develops any other symptoms I'm taking him in to see a vet.

[theapexgerman]

I don't know to much bout sick snakes I never had a sick snake best thing to do is go to a vet

[Caylan]

I really don't know who recommended high humidity to fend off an RI, but with Burms I find it's the opposite... 40-50% is what you want. as for curbing the RI, I would take it in myself, but you could try increasing temps as well. I would go for 82 cool side and 94 warm... It's really unfortunate this little guy had to go through all this, luckily he came to you. I would try a dryer enclosure for a bit, see if that helps. But considering what he want through a vet visit may not be that bad of an idea... but might not be necessary yet. They are resilient like I keep saying lol. Glad he ate for you, thats a great sign. What size meal did you give him?

[Spaghetti]

I gave him a small adult mouse. It was about as big around as he is at his widest point. I tossed some wadded-up newspaper in the enclosure to lower the humidity.

[BarelyBreathing]

Take him to the vet.

[Caylan]

Wadded up newspaper won't help much... My set up would look like this:

A good sized cage with lots of ventilation, a large water dish to soak in, hide on cool side and warm side, 82* and 94* respectively. Newspaper substrate and nothing else for now... Also Burms don;t need mice, he should eat a small adult rat probably... You may think thats too big, but its not... You want him to look something like this I would think(this is a jungle carpet python, I don't have a burm any more)
http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww355/Inugohan/Reptiles/Female%20Jungle/IMG_1842.jpg
She's eaten an L3 rat(350-400g) and she is about the girth of an adult mouse....
If the symptoms don;t clear significantly in the next day or two, I would take it in for baytril or something. Good luck, hopefully that picture will help you pick his food.

[Spaghetti]

Got it. Yea, if I don't see a significant improvement within 24 hours, I'm taking the little guy in.

[Strutter769]

Well, my little burm, the one who arrived in bad weather after being delayed for way too long. He still doesn't have a name...it's not my most pressing concern right now.

As others have warned me might happen, he has developed a wheezing/clicking when he breathes. He did eat, however, and seems happy in every other aspect.

Since raising the humidity didn't seem to have the effect of heading off the RI, should I instead try to make the enclosure very dry? I've already gotten his temps way up.

I'd really like for him to be able to fight this on his own, but if he develops any other symptoms I'm taking him in to see a vet.

Get to a vet, my friend! S/he should give you some injections (I forget the name of the drug) to give to the snake. Just past the first 1/3 of the body, if I remember correctly, I where you would give the shot. I think I gave 3 injections and Lucy was fine.

Best of luck! Keep us posted.

[Caylan]

Good call. Any more questions we're all here. I'm up all night and most other people are up during the day so you have someone helping you all the time lol. Just make sure that guy gets the food he needs, my only concern. He'll beat the RI with flying colours I imagine, you're doing the right things coming about it early enough. But no more mice lol.

[theapexgerman]

I work 12 hour shifts I'm up all times and since I'm on my phone everytime there's a new post my phone makes a noise and it goes straight to the post altho I'm not much of a help on sick snakes

[Caylan]

I think air exchange is most important when it comes to RI's, and even though your cage is vented, there might not be much air movement. So I open the cage usually for about 10 minutes at a time every couple hours or so as well, just help it out a bit, and get the snake more used to me being around while its sick.

[Spaghetti]

So I open the cage usually for about 10 minutes at a time every couple hours or so

That's a great idea! I'll start doing that, at least until my vet can see me. Sometimes it's hard to get in, there aren't a lot of reptile vets in the area but there are a lot of reptile keepers.

[Caylan]

What you will need likely is Baytril Injections, at least that's what I assume they will try first. All you really need is one good reptile vet, so if you have more then one in your area that's awesome. Makes getting in a lot easier. In the mean time just use the above suggestions, and it make even go away on it's own. But personally, like we've all suggested and you've agreed to already, a vet visit in the next 24 hours would be best. I actually do the above for my blood pythons as well as any snake in shed that I've increased the humidity of. I've never had an RI either... So worth trying! I just notice that air can;t be moving around much regardless of ventilation, and too much ventilation makes humidity impossible... so I go with a gentle breeze approach since I'm always home lol. Lets me see them all that much more often too, and they are no longer startled by the opening of the cage. Sometimes they just climb right out, that's when you know they can be handled more then normally would. It all works out in the end lol. But you can just do it in the meantime for RI if you wish, its not necessary practice at all.

[Strutter769]

Lucy had a URI when she was younger.I gave her injections about 1/3 down her body (if I remember correctly), underneath her scales. I think she liked it just about as much as I liked shooting a 7+" Boa in the first damn place! Hahahahaha

[Caylan]

Yeah typically that's where injections are given, and no they don't enjoy it much. I think it might be able to be administered orally as well by injecting it into the rat, but I'm not certain on this. That may be a remedy for something totally different, I wish I could remember... I still think you'd be doing injections into the snake for this case though.
Just curious what his set up is like, what size cage and stuff. Not a big deal, just curious lol. I miss my burm...

[Strutter769]

Honestly, my BCI gave me no problems (@ about 6') with the shots for her URI at about 2-3 years of age.. As long as you're smart about it, injections are no big deal for your Boa or python.

[Caylan]

My active ones just aren't fans of being restrained at the best of times lol, that's why I said it. Burms are usually very easy going however they might not be at that age. Little go getters...

[Spaghetti]

I'm nervous about injections...I've kept snakes for years and years, and this is first problem I've had. I hope I can give it orally somehow, he's just so tiny, I'm very worried about hurting him.

As for his setup, he's in a quarantine tank with some eco earth as a substrate. He's got all the basics, hides, a water dish, etc. Temps have been bumped up a bit to help with his RI, the cool side is 80, warm side is 90.

[Caylan]

He's not tiny compared to what can take injections... the vet may be able to it if you're unwilling. It isn't that difficult though, and can help you en still trust with your snake. I remember giving a snake an oral treatment for something totally different, that was just shot down his throat with a syringe... He didn't like that one bit, and he was a super docile snake. He ended up dying(I almost cried actually, poor snake, didn't deserve it.. I should have bought him when he was available........) so oral may not be your best option either, unless it can be injected into a prey item, which may not act quick enough for this situation. You are probably best off with an injection directly into the snake. Doing it the once will make you feel like you can doing anything for a snake, it's an awesome feeling. He'll get better, so don't worry. You and your vet can decide the best course of action.

[Caylan]

I'd almost switch him to newspaper as well, no dust or moisture.... but that'd your call, if your eco earth is rather dry then it might not be necessary. Are you using a hydrometer?

[Spaghetti]

Yea, I used a hair dryer to dry out the eco earth until the humidity was at about 50%. Obviously, it took a lot of checking every 10 minutes, but it worked.

[Caylan]

Oh perfect, Good Macguivering! He should be comfy in that, it will help absorb extra moisture from air that way as well. I have a huge bin full of coco husk that's dry as a bone now, I use it in a few of cages and add moisture as necessary. But generally I like it best dry, and the air moist, with the use of a large water bowl and controlled ventilation. He should be good now until he see's the vet at least!

[Spaghetti]

I feel like a new mother who has a baby with the flu....I can't sleep, I've been peering into the room he's in just to check on him every few hours, haha. It's almost 5am...

I know that nothing is going to change from hour to hour, but I've honestly never had an RI in my collection before. I've always been very careful with husbandry to make sure I prevented an issue before it happened. Guess there's a first time for everything.

[Caylan]

You're doing great, going overboard if anything lol. Your burm will be fine, don't worry so much. Get some sleep, check on him, take him the vet, and you're golden.

[Spaghetti]

Update: My vet is really busy, but he's promised to squeeze me in before the end of the week. I have an appointment for Friday, but his receptionist is going to call me asap when they have a sooner opening. If the snake begins to worsen, I'm going to just do a walk-in at another office, but I really like this vet, so I'm hoping to be able to go to him.

[SpOoKy]

Is he a reptile vet?
No offence to cat and dog vets but they usually have no clue about reptiles.

[Spaghetti]

Yes, he specializes in birds, actually, but he also does a lot of work with reptiles.

[millertime89]

Keep that humidity UP. Burms need 70+% when little and higher to fight off RIs successfully. A hot spot of 92-95 will be perfect. But you'll most likely need to give your little guy injections, Keep him warm and take him to the vet ASAP. You need to call your vet back and impress upon him that if he doesn't see you soon there's a good chance the snake will die. That usually gets them moving and is completely true. Yes you do need air movement, but high humidity is IMO more important at this time. Keeping him on newspaper is a good call too.

[shaunyboy]

Got it. Yea, if I don't see a significant improvement within 24 hours, I'm taking the little guy in.


imo,you won't see an improovement in 24 hours,snakes take a bit longer to show improovements

i raise my hot end temps by 5 degrees f.

keep a close eye on things and usually after a week or two the clicking/wheezing stops

thats if the respiritory is caught at an early stage

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

Yeah typically that's where injections are given, and no they don't enjoy it much. I think it might be able to be administered orally as well by injecting it into the rat, but I'm not certain on this. That may be a remedy for something totally different, I wish I could remember... I still think you'd be doing injections into the snake for this case though.
Just curious what his set up is like, what size cage and stuff. Not a big deal, just curious lol. I miss my burm...


i use only oral baytril i use

i use a syringe and infant feeding tube cut to size to administer it

pop the tube far enough down the snakes throat to stop the meds coming back up

with an adult carpet 3 to 5 inchs

hatchlings an inch or two

as long as the meds are not spilling out the snakes mouth

i only use injectables as a last resort

cheers shaun

[Spaghetti]

Update: My vet got me bumped up to tomorrow at 6:30!

[Spaghetti]

I checked on the little guy before I left for class today...he still seems a bit wheezy, but a lot better than he was. I'm going to go ahead and keep the vet appointment anyway, at the very least he needs to be looked at, considering all he's been through besides the RI.

[Caylan]

i use only oral baytril i use

i use a syringe and infant feeding tube cut to size to administer it

pop the tube far enough down the snakes throat to stop the meds coming back up

with an adult carpet 3 to 5 inchs

hatchlings an inch or two

as long as the meds are not spilling out the snakes mouth

i only use injectables as a last resort

cheers shaun

I thought this was possible, thanks Shaun! For a young burm I would think 2-3 inches though.
Awesome you got an early appointment, best of luck!

[Spaghetti]

Update: The snake now has a name. I decided to name him Giovanni :)

[millertime89]

I like it.

[Caylan]

I like it.

Great name!!
Now Kyle, I notice you repeat higher humidity for burms with an RI, and I was wondering why that is... I've always thought drier more moderate conditions were best for the start of an RI, but perhaps I'm wrong on this completely, or perhaps its just burms. I know you know what your doing so I figured I'd ask, get some more info for myself... I would hate to be steering people in the wrong direction. I realize burms prefer 60% ambient in perfect health conditions, just wondering how higher humidity helps at the onset of an RI. Curious is all, not discrediting what you said by any means. As you see I put 50% but you felt 70% was best that you put it 2 times now, I've decided rather then countering, perhaps you know something I don't. Anyone else mind I probably woulda nailed them and made myself look stupid lol. Thanks in advance!

Hows this burm doing now by the way? His appointment go alright?

[millertime89]

That's what the breeder advised me to do. Its the same with a lot of other python species too from what I've been told, raise the humidity and temps. I actually think 60-70 is proper for normal conditions, 70-80 for young ones, and 80+ to battle RIs. This is what the breeder I bought my dwarf burm from (and a few other Burm breeders) told me and she's never had an RI so that's what I'm sticking with.

[Caylan]

Thanks for that. I've never actually had to deal with an RI so far, just done quite a bit of reading on it. I've mainly read increase the temperature and lower humidity. Maybe I should ask some actual breeders about it instead like you did. I knew burms needed higher humidity then say indian or african rock pythons, just didn't realise it assisted in helping RI's as well. I should go back and re look into all this.... Thanks again!

[Spaghetti]

The appointment is at 6:30 pm, lol. Don't worry, I'll update you guys first thing :)

[Caylan]

Sorry lol, it is my tomorrow from when I read that lol..., and I assumed that meant you went yesterday... Good luck then haha!

[millertime89]

Thanks for that. I've never actually had to deal with an RI so far, just done quite a bit of reading on it. I've mainly read increase the temperature and lower humidity. Maybe I should ask some actual breeders about it instead like you did. I knew burms needed higher humidity then say indian or african rock pythons, just didn't realise it assisted in helping RI's as well. I should go back and re look into all this.... Thanks again!

Its different for different species. I'm sure you're supposed to drop it for some species.
I'm lucky as well, I've never had one either, but I've had 2 snakes that I thought they might so I bumped heat and humidity and whether they did or didn't, they didn't get worse.

[SpOoKy]

The way it was explained to me is (at least for bp) they need the humidity in the air to help them breath. dry air can actually cause an RI. whe the symptoms show you should bump it right up. There is a video on snakebytes tv that shows a good method with a fogger or humidifier you can use.

Barely Breathing can explain it MUCH better than I do.

[Spaghetti]

Well, I'm back with the results! The vet advised me to keep his humidity at around 50%. He also gave me some baytril injections, and demonstrated how by doing the first one himself. He said I caught it very early, and that my little Giovanni will likely make a quick recovery!

One question, I forgot to ask the vet and the office is now closed: the syringes of baytril he gave me...should I refrigerate those?

[Swany]

Hey great news, here's to Giovanni. I dont know 100% but I'd imagine you'd keep them in the fridge. :-)

[Strutter769]

From what I've read, yes, it needs to be refrigerated. Shake it well before administering to Giovanni. Baytril is good for only two weeks.

[Spaghetti]

It doesn't say on the information it came with...it's already pre-measured in syringes and pre-diluted. I'm hearing conflicting reports.... also, my vet said it would last 6-8 weeks.

[Strutter769]

This is where I read that info;

Baytril & Doxy: Refrigeration required? (http://www.goosemoose.com/rfc/index.php?topic=4053499.0)

[Spaghetti]

Do you think it would have said on the packaging? I feel like someone would have mentioned it to me at the office... Argh! I hate that their office closes at 8pm!

[millertime89]

Burms need humidity higher than 50% normally, especially as babies. But hey, I only know what a few successful breeders told me. Hope it works out for ya.

[Spaghetti]

I hope so too... the vet told me it was just for the time being, once he get's better I'm to bump the humidity back up. I know this is a hotly debated topic, some people swear by higher humidity for RI's, some people insist that drying up the enclosure is the way to go. For now, I'm just going to follow my vet's advice, as long as my snake is getting better I'm not going to argue.

On another note, I noticed he had a bit of swelling at the injection site...the swelling had gone way down this morning, but since he's albino I could see that there was still a little bit of very slight discoloration. This is normal, I assume? I know when I get tetanus shots there's always some soreness for a few days.

[Strutter769]

Yes, completely normal. Just like fair-skinned people bruise after a shot. The swelling is just the fluid you put in that hasn't been absorbed yet.

I had to do the same for Lucy when she was much younger, and experienced the very same things.

[shaunyboy]

while adminestering the meds,inject very slowly,to avoid build ups of meds and swelling

imo,there should not really be too big of a lump,if any after injections

remember to always pull back a little on the plunger,just to make sure your NOT in a vien,before pressing the plunger on the syringe

if lumps do appear,then gently massage them with your fingers,this will help disperse any build up of fluids

its good to hear your burms getting better mate

cheers shaun

[Spaghetti]

Thanks for the tips, Shaun! You'd think I'd have more experience with this kind of thing...I've certainly been keeping reptiles long enough. I suppose that's the cool thing about this hobby...you never stop learning :)

[millertime89]

I stand by what I say, dropping humidity is stupid with this species.

[Spaghetti]

Gave the third shot a couple of hours ago. I think I'm getting the hang of it, there was almost no swelling this time!

[BarelyBreathing]

I stand by what I say, dropping humidity is stupid with this species.


I completely agree with this. Any time you're dealing with a reptile from a high humidity environment that becomes ill, increasing the humidity is how you go about with treatment.

Most people make a humidity box for their snakes who are showing signs of a respiratory infection.

[Spaghetti]

But if raising the humidity makes the wheezing worse, wouldn't it be smart to do the opposite? I tried bumping his humidity back up today and the wheezing started again. So, I moved him to an enclosure where I had the humidity back at 50% and he went back to clicking instead of wheezing after a few hours. All I care about is my snake getting better, as far as which side of the raise/lower humidity debate is correct, I really couldn't care less. My snake is my top priority.